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VA Scandal; Measles and Cancer; California Fires; Sixth Grade Students Write Kill List; New York Times Denies Unequal Pay; War of Words Over Most Crucial Clue

Aired May 15, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Here we go. Top of the hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

The nation's chief of Veterans Affairs says he is, quote/unquote, mad as hell. Eric Shinseki testified today and mad as hell, he says, about our American heroes dying at home while allegedly waiting for appointments at VA hospitals. Mad as hell about charges first raised by CNN of these duel wait lists, potential cover-ups and administrators gaming the system. Not mad enough, apparently, though, to raise some hell himself and raise it now within the ranks of his health care system. Got to wait for those official reports.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC SHINSEKI, SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: Evidence that forty veterans may have perished awaiting scheduling. The IG is going to get to the bottom of that. He is the lead in this comprehensive review. I don't get out ahead of him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't there evidence here of criminal wrongdoing that is falsifying records, false statements to the federal government? That's a crime under the -

SHINSEKI: It could be, yes. Again, I will work with the IG to make that available to him if that's his request.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, may I suggest respectfully, Mr. Secretary, that it's your responsibility to make that judgment about the IGs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Foot note there. IG, that is government speak for inspector general. And so an IG investigates problems and issues reports and sometimes even get acted upon. You got that? Chris Frates, he's with me now live from Washington.

And so CNN's reporting, Chris, on this story that certainly helped earn attention from the White House. We learned yesterday that it has announced it's adding a heavyweight to the VA probe. Here he is, Deputy Chief of Staff Rob Nabors. Chris Frates, you watched the testimony. What is your takeaway from the hearing today?

CHRIS FRATES, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you, Brooke, a lot of tough questions both from Democrats and Republicans who had serious issues with what was going on here. And I think the takeaway really is that Shinseki says, I'm not going to resign. He was asked whether or not he thinks it's appropriate. That's the president's place, he said.

But as you point out, Rob Nabors is going to come in, be a bit of a White House watchdog as this process moves forward. So he's got somebody looking over his shoulder for sure.

BALDWIN: Let's just back up because for viewers who have not followed every nuance, can you just explain here, we're talking about these dual wait lists and we know it was Drew Griffin and your unit's reporting, you know, that are saying, according to folks they talked to, that these wait lists are actually killing people, that they are killing veterans. Why were VA workers, for example, in Phoenix, keeping these two wait lists in the first place?

FRATES: Well, it really comes down to the policy of the VA was that veterans who come in for care need to be seen within 14 days. So what we believe was happening, according to our sources, was that a veteran will come in. They would take down their information, but they wouldn't enter them into the official computer section. They would put them on a separate list that was secret to just people inside the VA. Those lists went on for months people were on them, up to 21 months. So once the appointment came up, they would put people back into the official list so that it look like they were being served within that 14 day window. So it was a way to show the brass that they were being served within the 14 days, when, in fact, they were not. And some senators today raised questions about -

BALDWIN: Why not go to the DOJ?

FRATES: Why not go to the DOJ? Well, the -- Eric Holder has said that he is monitoring this but at this point there's no FBI investigation, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Chris Frates, thank you so much, from Washington.

A quick side note as well. We're hearing possibly Eric Shinseki himself may step behind a microphone, stakeout cameras as we call it here. So if and when he does that - here it is -- we will bring it to you live.

Meantime, have you heard? Measles may help cure cancer. That suggestion from the Mayo Clinic's landmark study. This 50-year-old Minnesota woman with late stage blood cancer was given this enormous dose of reengineered measles virus. We're talking about - let me just say this again, this massive overdose. It's enough to inoculate 100 million people, that's how big we're talking. Now this woman is cancer free. Joining me to discuss, senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen, which is amazing for this woman and we all want to just say, well, could this be it? Could this be the cure?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It is so fascinating. I never use what I call the c-word, the cure.

BALDWIN: You never do. COHEN: I never do because, you know, there's so much more work that we need to do -

BALDWIN: You're very careful.

COHEN: But this is really fascinating. I mean this is just - this has a lot of people excited.

BALDWIN: Yes.

COHEN: So what - you know, years ago, there was a boy in Uganda - I know I'm going down the road here -

BALDWIN: I'm with you. I'm with you.

COHEN: But it's important. You'll see why.

A boy in Uganda had cancer. A giant tumor on his head. And then he got the measles, just by chance, and the tumor went away. The tumor just went away. And doctors said, what the heck happened here? And so what they think is that maybe the measles, while it attacks other things in your body, also attacks cancer. And so then they decided to do this study. And so they used, as you said, this ginormous dose of measles virus and they gave it to six people. Only -- it only seemed to work well in this one woman. And they think the reason might be is that the other five, they had antibodies to measles -

BALDWIN: OK.

COHEN: And so their body didn't accept it as well. But for this woman, it's really pretty amazing. And --

BALDWIN: So she was the one success story of the six?

COHEN: She was the - yes, there was one there was sort of some success -

BALDWIN: OK.

COHEN: But she was the one big success story.

BALDWIN: What about possible side effects of taking sort of these massive doses of measles virus?

COHEN: You would think that -- what would you think the obvious side effect would be?

BALDWIN: Measles.

COHEN: Measles. Right, exactly. But they engineered the virus so that they wouldn't get measles. So that was pretty clever of them, so they didn't get measles. But people did get really sick. I mean 104 plus fevers, vomiting, really sick. One patient had a headache so bad they needed morphine.

BALDWIN: Oh. COHEN: Another patient a headache so bad they had to stop and then restart the study. But they were short-lived. You know, it went away after - after a while. And then there were no long term effects it seems.

BALDWIN: It's incredible just to think of all the doctors and medical staff who are just trying to - trying to help, trying to find something. We all wait.

COHEN: It is. And what's incredible about it is that it's making the body's immune system kind of work for you.

BALDWIN: OK.

COHEN: And I think that that's what's really important here and what's really interesting.

BALDWIN: OK.

COHEN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Possibly encouraging.

COHEN: It is.

BALDWIN: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much.

COHEN: Thanks.

BALDWIN: And relentless flames, brutal heat, high winds, they have put the entire San Diego area of southern California on high alert today. Firefighters enduring yet another day of tough weather conditions while trying to knock out multiple wildfires. And when I say multiple, let me be specific. You see this graphic here? At least nine fires are scorching mountainsides. Some of them dangerously close to the San Onofre nuclear power plants and the Camp Pendleton military base there in southern California. More than 9,000 acres have burned. Tens of thousands of people at this point have been told to get out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like it's getting closer. I think it might be time for me to (INAUDIBLE).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: People in the fire's path have been capturing just these dramatic images. Look at the smoke here and the line of fire. Thank you to our i-Reporters. This is one of our - a CNN i-Reporter near a business district in Carlsbad. That is north of San Diego. Temperatures did cool overnight. The winds, calmed. But that did not stop at least 20 structures, you know, homes, other structures from burning all the way through. CNN's Dan Simon is on the ground for us with an update here.

And, Dan, my goodness, I see what remains of a home behind you. DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. You can see crews doing some mop up here on this house. You know the conditions, they continue to be hot and dry. You throw in a little bit of wind and you have a recipe for disaster.

We are in Carlsbad. You can see these two homes right next to each other that burned down. But, Brooke, I want to show you exactly the path that this fire took. You can see down there in the canyon, that hillside that's been scorched and that building that's been destroyed. The flames made their way up over here and took out these two homes. But this grassy field, or at least it used to be a grassy field, this is where firefighters made their stand and protected a whole bunch of homes behind this field.

Where we are in Carlsbad, Brooke, this is the worst we've seen. But right now it is 60 percent contained. The worst of it seems to be to the east of us in this community called San Marcos (ph). There's a university over there. It's evacuated. They actually had to cancel the graduation ceremony this weekend. But crews continuing to try to mop up things over here in Carlsbad and just hope that things don't get worse.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: You know, Dan, I realize we're showing the worst of it, some of the worst of it where you are, but, I mean, I know a lot of folks in the San Diego area, kids are out of school today. Their cars are covered in ash. I mean how widespread is this?

SIMON: It's impacting everybody here. You know, you have nine fires that pop up. You know, basically in 24 hours. One county supervisor saying he's never seen anything like it and he's questioning whether some of them, Brooke, may have been intentionally set. At this point we don't know if, in fact, there is arson here, but authorities are looking into that.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK, Dan Simon for us in San Diego County. Dan, thank you so much. Stay safe, you and your crews out there for us.

Just ahead, sixth grade girls make a list of classmates, naming the ones they like, naming the ones they hate and naming the ones they want to kill. Is this childish antics, you know, junior high issues, or is this a serious crime? We'll discuss that.

Plus, all past and present hosts on the set of "The View" today, reuniting to say farewell to the one, the only, Barbara Walters, including the two who famously feuded with her, Rosie O'Donnell and Elizabeth Hasselbeck. So we'll talk about that.

And from NFL star to accused triple murder, Aaron Hernandez, already facing one murder charge, has just been named as the gunmen in an unrelated double killing. Details on that coming up here in CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BALDWIN: In Pennsylvania, schoolyard antics have taken a more sinister tone. Certain sixth graders are accused of putting together what some students and parents are calling a kill list. This is a hand written list of more than 20 student's names divided into categories such as "like," "dislike," "hate," and the category that's drawing the most attention, "kill." I have Springdale, Pennsylvania, Police Chief Julio Medeiros on the phone with me.

Chief, can you hear me?

POLICE CHIEF JULIO MEDEIROS, SPRINGDALE, PENNSYLVANIA (via telephone): I can.

BALDWIN: Chief, you have seen this handwritten list of names. These are sixth graders we're talking about. But, sadly, we all know what can happen in our nation's schools as far as violence goes. Would you, having seen this, categorized this as a kill list?

MEDEIROS: I think that's what it was categorized as and I think it's a bit inflammatory, although we're treating it seriously. I don't see any furtherance to those words at this time.

BALDWIN: You or some of your officers have interviewed these young girls, yes?

MEDEIROS: Yes we have, myself and several officers.

BALDWIN: And how did they seem? Did they explain themselves?

MEDEIROS: You know, I can't give out too many details about the interviews with the girls because we've had a great working relationship with the school and Allegheny Valley and their staff have been nothing short of phenomenal in handling this expeditiously. But I can say that what goes along with 12-year-old girls and both boys at this age can be a bit confusing at times, because we don't always know what's in their head. And apparently they're aware that they made a grave - gravely bad decision.

BALDWIN: Are you charging them, chief, or no?

MEDEIROS: I can't say that at this point. You know, the investigation is ongoing. We're tying up a few loose ends. We do believe that we've nailed it all down, but we're going to be debriefing with the school, who we have been in contact with constantly since the inception of this event. And when that determination comes, they will be the first to know and we'll (INAUDIBLE) accordingly.

BALDWIN: Twelve-year-old girls. Chief Julio Medeiros, thanks for hopping on the phone. Appreciate it. We'll stay - we'll stay in contact with you.

Just into us now, to CNN, "The New York Times" firing back today over reports the female executive editor who just lost her job there had been paid less than her male predecessors. So joining me now, Brian Stelter, our senior media correspondent, host of "Reliable Sources."

Brian, what did it say?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: The publisher of "The New York Times," Arthur Sulzberger, had to send this memo to the whole staff because these stories about Jill Abramson's firing have gotten so loud and so ugly -

BALDWIN: They're everywhere.

STELTER: That I think he had no other choice. There were stories last night within hours of her firing that said that she had been paid less than the male editor before her and that she had spoken up about that. That she had - that she had complained about it. That she had been paid more but that the idea that she was acting bossy and pushy was one of the reasons why she was pushed out. Well, the publisher, in a brand new memo, says compensation played no part whatsoever in my decision that Jill could not remain. He says the only reason she was dismissed was because I had concerns about some aspects of her management of the newsroom. Either way, this is a story that's going to continue to get talked about because the issues of women in corporate life, women who reach the top of these corporate America jobs, only to have those jobs taken away, is something that resonates widely.

BALDWIN: Stelter, you worked at "The Times" for quite a while. Just -- I can't let you go without asking. I mean I'm sure you've been in touch with folks. What's the sense over there?

STELTER: Abramson was my boss until about six months ago. She was beloved in the newsroom. I found her to be an inspiring boss. But she was also feared in the newsroom. Sometimes you can't have one without the other. But it was those less palatable parts of her management style that may have ultimately doomed her.

BALDWIN: Brian Stelter, thank you so much.

STELTER: Thanks.

BALDWIN: In the hunt for Flight 370, it is their only clue, it's that Inmarsat data that was used to track the plane's final location supposedly somewhere in the southern Indian Ocean. But who really has that information? Who has the power to release it? And why is on one willing to hand it over to find this plane? That's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: It is the story we led with and now we're going to take you back to D.C. because, as promised, Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki stepped behind that microphone, that podium, at our stakeout camera. Let's take a look and a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. ERIC SHINSEKI, VETERANS AFFAIRS SECRETARY: We have certainly worked with the IG and the GAO. Any time they come up with a report, we work to close out those actions. Not all of the reports have been closed out, but it's a - it's our responsibility to do something about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The deaths that (INAUDIBLE) occurred in Columbia, South Carolina, Augusta, Georgia, have you fired any administrators who were responsible for veterans dying due to delayed care?

SHINSEKI: We have taken action against senior leaders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fired?

SHINSEKI: I would include, yes, them being removed from VA. I would say we, based on what we learned in South Carolina, took a holistic look. We went back in time 15 years. Out of that, we probably looked at 250 million consults. That was narrowed down to 76 institutional disclosures, of which there were 23 deaths that had occurred. And we have said we are going to make changes here. But it took us a while to get to that determination.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary, what do you say to those veterans who said today you of all people have abandoned them? Have you failed these veterans?

SHINSEKI: Well, I'll tell you that I took this job not to fail veterans. And I came to make things better for them. And that's my commitment to them and that's what we'll be continuing to work on even as we look into the access issues that are being discussed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what -- what do you say to those veterans who say, he's abandoned us?

SHINSEKI: I have not abandoned them. And I do talk to these veterans. Not just veteran service organizations, with whom I meet monthly, but as I travel across the landscape of where VA facilities are located, all 50 states here in the last several years. And at each of those locations, I address veterans themselves.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But they say talk is cheap.

SHINSEKI: Talk isn't cheap where I'm concerned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think there's a culture - do you believe that there's a culture of cooking the books in the VA so that there - you know, that there's this pressure to reduce the backlog and it's created this culture of cooking the books?

SHINSEKI: Yes, well that's - that's what the IGs look at Phoenix is going to help us understand. At the same time, we've - we're undertaken a nationwide audit to see whether or not our scheduling policies are being implemented in concert with the rules.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But even the IG way saying that there - that he's documented this, you know, over the past eight or nine years. These are IG reports that come to you. I mean do you get a sense that there is pressure from these employees to, you know, fudge the numbers in order to reduce the backlog?

SHINSEKI: Well, that shouldn't be there. And that's what our audit -- UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But is it there?

SHINSEKI: Well, that's what our audit is intending to find out. And that's why we're doing it.

(CROSS TALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A long time today listening to both the senators -

SHINSEKI: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) organizations. Do you - are you leaving here right now with any internal reforms that you might order right now?

SHINSEKI: Well, the first thing I'm going to do is insure that we have a good response from the audit we're doing so we know what we're working on. And a larger note, I have to ask whether our policy and scheduling is - is correct? Is it the right policy? Is it properly resourced?

Look, last year, 85 million outpatient appointments occurred. As you heard the chairman say, 230,000 plus appointments every day. This is a robust system. A good portion of it works. And what we're focusing on is scheduling as an issue. Where are we challenged? Is it across the system or are these at isolated locations? That's what the audit will help us understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Veterans Affair Secretary Eric Shinseki answered some pretty tough questions from reporters there on Capitol Hill after he testified, you know, that he is mad as hell, to quote him, over the fact that many, many veterans, folks who were willing to give their lives for this country in war, were drying while waiting for VA care. The reporting from here at CNN caught the attention from the White House. We now know that the deputy chief of staff, Rob Nabors, is looking into this.

You just heard Shinseki mentioning when he was asked whether people had been fired over this within the VA, he said several senior leaders. Then several people have also called for his resignation from the tip top, including a congressman we'll be talking to at the top of the next hour. So we're going stay on this story. It's incredibly important. As he mentioned, 230,000 veterans appointments in this country each and every day.

Now this.

Now to the hunt for Malaysia Flight 370. A war of words is erupting over the most valuable clue in this entire search operation. Malaysia says they do not have that raw Inmarsat satellite data used to determine every search area off the western coast of Australia. For weeks heartbroken families begged Malaysia over and over to release that clue, that information. Just today, Malaysia's top transport officials made it clear. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HISHAMMUDDIN HUSSEIN, MALAYSIA ACTING TRANSPORT MINISTER: The raw data is with Inmarsat, not with Malaysia, not with Australia, not with MAS (ph). So if there is any request for this raw data to be made available to the public, it must be made to Inmarsat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Inmarsat says, whoa, not so fast, Malaysia. Our own Chris Cuomo interviewed Inmarsat's senior vice president. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS MCLAUGHLIN, INMARSAT SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT: The truth is, it's not our data. The data belongs to the Malaysian authorities and it belongs to them for the air accident investigation work that's going on at the moment. It's a matter that the authorities to decide what they're going to do with their data. It's not something Inmarsat can release.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK. So really the question is, who has the power to release the most crucial clue in the very expensive search for this missing plane. Joining me to discuss, CNN International's Jim Clancy.

So, do we have the answer? Is it Malaysia who can say, hey, we can release this? Or is it Inmarsat?

JIM CLANCY, CNN INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS ANCHOR & CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Malaysia doesn't have the raw data.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CLANCY: The prime minister took a look on a laptop computer. He was shown the results, the conclusions of the investigation showing that it landed -- it had to have gone down someplace in the middle of the south Indian Ocean. So the Malaysians are right, they don't have the raw data. The raw data wouldn't be of any use to them.

Now, some say that Inmarsat is protecting proprietary information with all of this, but they've had four different teams of experts look at it. The real controversy is, could we somehow open this investigation up, renew it? A lot of questions. You know, we haven't found anything.

BALDWIN: That's what so many people - that's what so many of our aviation experts have talked about time and time again, release the Inmarsat data, release the Inmarsat data because then it can be looked at with fresh eyes. There are a lot of smart people. We don't need to be looking at the Inmarsat data, but there are a lot of people in this world who could look at it and help the teams already in place find this plane.

CLANCY: Now, it is Malaysia's right. They own the information as part of the investigation. That's by treaty. And it may be that they can get that information. I made a request to the Malaysian government to request from Inmarsat to get the raw data and release it to us, in some form. You know, I - it's not that we want to steal state secrets from Inmarsat.

BALDWIN: No.

CLANCY: But let some experts take an independent look at this. We'll see what the reply is. We'll see how far it goes. But I think, you know, we've got to remember that it did lead the investigators to a site where they tracked pings coming from under water for two hours and 20 minutes. And that was beyond the 30 days. Now, it expired. They've searched that area. They're resetting again. A lot of people are saying, we haven't found a trace yet.

BALDWIN: (INAUDIBLE).

CLANCY: Something is wrong.

BALDWIN: Doubts over the pings as well.

CLANCY: Just doubts. There's a mystery.

BALDWIN: Yes.

CLANCY: But it's no mystery who owns the data.

BALDWIN: OK. Jim Clancy, thank you.