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Beef Recall; President Obama Speaks Out on VA Scandal

Aired May 21, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hour two. I'm Brooke Baldwin, top of the hour.

Big doings in Washington today, because President Obama finally responded to the alleged cover-up involving veterans' medical care. It was a massive story CNN broke wide open. Heads could roll here in the wake of this.

But, for now, one of them will not be that of Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki. The president today stood behind this embattled former general after who is under fire after CNN reported 40 veterans died while waiting for care at a VA hospital.

This retired VA doctor right here talking with our own Drew Griffin was a whistle-blower here. Dr. Sam Foote told Drew about that secret list that contained the true, accurate wait times for patients at the Veterans Administration hospital in Phoenix, Arizona.

So, from Dr. Foote, we now know 1,400 to 1,600 sick veterans waited as long as 21 months to get care. And now we know, as we look at this map, we're not talking just about Phoenix, Arizona. We're talking about two dozen VA facilities nationwide are now under investigation for allegedly faking wait lists or other records.

The president in their meeting in the Oval Office this morning ordered Secretary Shinseki to do a full investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know the people are angry and want swift reckoning. I sympathize with that. But we have to let investigators do their job and get to the bottom of what happened.

Our veterans deserve to know the facts. Their families deserve to know the facts. Once we know the facts, I assure you, if there is misconduct, it will be punished.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Dr. Sam Foote joins me now live, also here, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

And, Jeff, I'm going to come to you in a little bit. But, first, Dr. Foote, thank you for joining me. I just really want to focus with you off the top here. And I'm sure you listened to the president today speaking at the briefing.

Did what he said, did that change anything for you today?

DR. SAM FOOTE, VETERANS ADMINISTRATION WHISTLE-BLOWER: Not a whole lot. I wish they would get off the delay and deny spin tactics and start focusing on the problems of what the waiting times are.

What the ultimate outcome is of the criminal investigation in Phoenix is not going to change the nationwide problem with the scheduling issues. And what we need to do now is to find out what those numbers really are.

BALDWIN: Well, let's get to the root. Let's get to the root of these fake waiting lists. My question is, is it because of a lack of resources within the VA? Or was there malicious intent? Instead of someone sort of waving their arms and saying people are dying, they decided to cover it up instead. Which is it?

FOOTE: Well, I think in the case of Phoenix, it would be closer to malicious intent and doing things for secondary gain, such as promotions and monetary rewards.

But the problem is over the last few years, there's been a mismatch, at least in Phoenix, in the demand for care and our abilities to supply it. And rather than admit to that, they chose to cover it up.

BALDWIN: But with the cover-up, with the cooking of the books over these wait times for veterans here, that's a very specific thing to do. And we're talking about it. You were the whistle-blower there in Phoenix, but where did that come from? Because it was so specific, I'm just wondering if it came from someone.

FOOTE: I think a lot of times people faced with the same problems frequently come from different solutions. And it may have been strategies that were passed around.

This is nothing do. William Schoenhard had this memo written in 2010 with all the various different gaming strategies and basically said to knock it off. And we need the real numbers.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: To knock off what? To knock off the cooking of the books, the fudging of the times?

FOOTE: Correct. Correct.

And there's an easy way to get to the real numbers. And that would be by having the General Accountability Office and Debra Draper do an independent survey of the primary care providers, nurses and the clerks who make these appointments to find out what the real times are, and then they could give a one-week amnesty period to the VA directors to report their real numbers. And if they don't match, the I.G. could go out there and say, hey, you cooked the books and you're getting fired for it and prosecuted.

BALDWIN: OK. Stay with me, Dr. Foote.

Jeff Toobin, let me just bring you in this, because we don't know yet. Obviously, the investigation is beginning here when it comes to malicious intent or not. But if people were getting orders from above to cook the books, so to speak, what would those individuals face, legally speaking?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's important to draw a distinction here between bad bureaucracy, people not getting the care they deserve, and possible crimes.

They are totally different kinds of investigations and totally different attempts to solve both problems that would have almost nothing to do with each other. If there were people who were actively submitting fraudulent records, who were using government facilities to lie to their superiors, perhaps even at those superiors' orders, that is potentially a crime.

But prosecuting them, which may happen, won't address the problem of getting people care right away. So, you really have to have two parallel efforts under way at the same time.

BALDWIN: But, in the meantime, I keep thinking about the veterans, the thousands of veterans currently, now that this is wide open, who need care. Can we even know for sure -- and I was asking Drew Griffin this the other day -- can we even know for sure right now today if these veterans are getting the care they need? And he said to me, Brooke, we don't know.

TOOBIN: And we don't know.

And I think that's what the president was talking about, trying to figure out who needs care, how quickly they can get it. That's a very important investigation, but that is not an investigation to determine if anyone cooked the books or committed crimes. Both of those have to go on and they will not -- one will not help the other.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Dr. Foote, just thinking about all this, it's incredible to me to think of all these thousands of service men and women who we send off to war. In an instant, we can send supplies, we can send troops and tanks, but we can't take care of these heroes when we come back home.

FOOTE: Well, without having the right numbers, the VA doesn't know where to put resources.

So, maybe the California VAs are doing great and they have some extra resources and Arizona and New Mexico need resources that could be adjusted. But if they don't have accurate numbers, then they don't know where they need to shore up the staff and/or perhaps de-base out to get the care that's needed. And as long as they get bogus numbers, they think everything is fine and no one pays attention to it.

BALDWIN: They need the real numbers. I hear you loud and clear. Dr. Sam Foote, thank you so much. And, Jeff Toobin, thank you, thank you.

Also today, House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi has now named five fellow Democrats to the special Benghazi committee. Pelosi's decision follows days of discussions among her Democratic colleagues, some of whom argued for boycotting the probe, this is pure politics.

Eight committees have held hearings on the matter, including the Oversight Committee led by Republican Darrell Issa, whom Democrats charge with being heavy-handed. Here is Leader Pelosi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Regrettably, the Republican approach does not prevent the unacceptable and repeated abuses committed by Chairman Issa in any meaningful way.

That is all the more reason for Democrats to participate in the committee, to be there to fight for fair hearing and process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: We will talk about why these Democrats want to be part of this hearing, why they want to sit at the table, why they want to defend coming up with Jake Tapper a little later this hour.

Meantime, General Motors is adding more calls to its recall heap, this time about 200,000 older Chevrolet Aveo cars. The problem here, risk of fires. Trying to keep up with GM's recall mass can be, I know, mind-boggling here.

GM has issued 29 recalls thus far year, more than 15 million cars and trucks worldwide.

Here is a timeline of really this whole fiasco. Mary Barra became GM's first CEO in January, clearly no honeymoon phase for her, because in February GM started its latest round of recalls. The Department of Justice launched a criminal probe in March. Mary Barra testified before Congress in April. And this month, GM was slapped with a $35 million fine.

Let's go to CNN Money writer -- automotive writer Peter Valdes-Dapena.

And, Peter, I'm almost losing track of all the numbers. You have these 29 recalls within a matter of five months. That's a lot.

PETER VALDES-DAPENA, CNN MONEY: It's an awful lot.

But one thing you have to keep in mind is, this all started with one very large recall of GM cars, Cobalts, older cars, for an ignition switch program. After that, GM got caught basically delaying a recall, not recalling cars nearly quickly enough. That's what that fine was for. They want to make sure that doesn't happen again. So, what they're doing right now is they're going back through all of their records, sort of cleaning out the closet, finding any issue that's possibly safety related from the past years, making sure those vehicles get recalled.

And on their new models, they're actually doing recalls of some of their new models very quickly, because they want to make sure they're seen as responding to this stuff right away because they're under the microscope.

BALDWIN: I mean, could we talk a little more about that? Beyond just even the recalls, we're talking this week about unfavorable stories that pertain to words apparently GM employees can't use in internal office memos. How do they do this damage control?

VALDES-DAPENA: Well, right now, the way they're handling the damage control is, they want to be seen as proactive. They want to be seen as taking care of a safety issue as soon as it comes up.

Sure, it looks good to do a recall. But they realize now it looks much worse to have found have been supposed to do a recall before and having failed to do so. And in terms of the words you were talking about, that was a presentation from 2008 that did show, I think, a genuine cultural problem at GM.

I think they were showing that they had all these words they'd rather you didn't use. Some of them were words like safety issue that they didn't want used in internal communications, because it might look bad. But, honestly, one thing you want to have is a free and open discussion of any kind of potential safety issue. And I think, today, GM actually has announced a program where they're awarding employees...

BALDWIN: Speaking up.

VALDES-DAPENA: ... for stepping up and speaking up about safety problems.

BALDWIN: Exactly right. Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNN Money, thank you so much.

And now to this, the FBI director, you hear about this, making headlines for some of his comments on pot and agency recruits. The question is, should the FBI agents be allowed to get high on their way to work? They need these guys to help fight cyber-crime. We will talk about that.

Also ahead, be careful what you're putting on the grill this upcoming Memorial Day, because almost two million pounds of beef are part of this recall. And we're learning what more could be involved. That is coming up. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Here is the deal, the FBI trying to fill 2,000 new jobs. The problem, according to the FBI, FBI's Web site, all applicants who smoked pot within the last three years are excluded, totally excluded, from consideration. And because of this, the rules could be changing.

Don Clark was with the FBI from 1976 until 2001.

Don, welcome.

DON CLARK, FORMER FBI INVESTIGATOR: Brooke, good to be with you again.

BALDWIN: So, let's talk about this. We know that hearing from the FBI director speaking to a crowd on Monday, he says the FBI is in need of some new recruits to help fight cyber-crime specifically.

But the director was quoted in saying: "I have to hire a great work force to compete with those cyber-criminals, and some of those kids want to smoke weed on the way to the interview."

Don, do you think that the FBI should loosen its no-tolerance policy?

CLARK: I'm not going to say that they should loosen it. I don't think we ought to bring on anything additionally or any organization that would cause the organization to decrease its level of abilities to do the crimes -- to do the work that they are supposed to be doing.

The question is, I think, is that there a significant difference in comparison there with alcohol or marijuana? And I think those are the issues that they ought to be doing -- looking at before they decide that one is worse than the other.

BALDWIN: Well, so, if somebody decides to have a few glasses of wine of the weekend and is good to go during the week, then are you saying that should be applied if somebody wants to get high on the weekend, but they're perfectly, 100 percent A-OK during the week? Would that be OK at the FBI?

CLARK: Well, what I'm really saying is that, if we can say that, yes, we can consume alcohol, but you can't come into the office, you can't handle your duties if you are consuming alcohol, but if you're not consuming it and you have no part of your body that shows that you have been and not able to do your job, that's one thing.

BALDWIN: Got it. Got it.

CLARK: Now, if marijuana fits into that other category and the same thing would occur, as much as I'm not for this, but, logically, I'm saying that, well, if it fits with the other aspect, then it should fit with that.

BALDWIN: I hear you loud and clear now.

Let me play this just for our viewers because apparently the FBI director clarified his statement. He was testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: Serious and funny. I was asked a question by a guy who said, I have a great candidate for the FBI. His problem is he smoked marijuana within the last five years.

And I said, I'm not going to discuss a particular case, but apply. And then I waxed philosophic and funny to say, look, one of our challenges that we face is getting a good work force at the same time when young people's attitudes about marijuana and our states' attitudes about marijuana are leading more and more of them to try it.

I am absolutely dead set against using marijuana. I don't want young people to use marijuana. It's against the law. We have a three-year ban on marijuana. I did not say that I'm going to change that ban.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: OK. So, there is -- that is a much-needed clarification from the FBI director, but, apparently, that a lot of the folks who they need to fight cyber-crime like to partake.

CLARK: Well, as long as the rule and the law with the organization is what it is, then obviously the director can't bring them in.

However, I do think, I do think they ought to take a look and perhaps reconsider. Let's face it. There have been a tremendous amount of alcohol-related issues that have been devastating to a lot of people and a lot of things that should not have been done.

And I'm not an expert on either one of those, the alcohol or the marijuana or whatever, but if it shows that marijuana and alcohol is somewhat in a comparative position there, then I think it's something that they ought to give it a thought. Am I in favor of it? No, I wouldn't want it.

BALDWIN: OK.

CLARK: But I think it ought to be given a thought.

BALDWIN: OK. Don Clark, I think you're about to make some friends.

Don Clark with one person's perspective at the -- formerly at the FBI, thank you so much. Appreciate you coming on.

Coming up next: Donald and Shelly Sterling and the L.A. Clippers team president allegedly tried to convince V. Stiviano to lie about Sterling's racist rant. That is according to these NBA charges against the Clippers owner. And that is just the beginning. Some reporters from "The L.A. Times" got their hands on the official charges. We will talk to him live about all this new information that is coming out now.

And then this -- kind of makes me hungry looking at this. I might have had one of those for dinner last night, in fact, but a major recall involving almost two million pounds of beef right before the Memorial Day weekend. You're cooking out. You're enjoying it. Now we're learning that the tainted beef could be reaching more people than originally thought.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A ground beef recall could affect your plans to fire up the grill -- easy for me to say -- the grill this Memorial Day weekend. U.S. health officials say nearly two million pounds of recalled ground beef may be contaminated with E. coli.

The recall is categorized as a class one hazard, meaning there is a reasonable probability that using the product may cause serious health consequences or death.

Joining me to discuss, chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That doesn't sound good.

BALDWIN: I don't like hearing that.

GUPTA: No.

BALDWIN: Especially -- I had one for dinner last night.

GUPTA: That's right. Well, you did have a hamburger.

BALDWIN: And I'm OK.

GUPTA: But you ran, so you deserved that, you said.

BALDWIN: Yes.

GUPTA: You know, it's interesting.

This investigation moved pretty fast. The first patient was identified on May 12. By May 19, they had this recall already under way. That's the good news in all this. I just wanted to point that out, because sometimes things can take weeks to figure out.

BALDWIN: Where is the but? The but is coming.

GUPTA: Well, right. Well, but you had the situation now where you broaden the scope of the investigation.

Take a look at the original map. You had 11 patients in four different states that were affected by this. But they found that this particular facility in Michigan sends to these distribution centers across the country, Brooke, and they send it to other places. So, it became much more widespread than they first thought.

They also thought it was just going to restaurants, but there's a possibility that it would go to retail stores as well.

BALDWIN: OK.

GUPTA: And that's also prompted some of this concern. By the way, we have the lot number. I think we can show that real quick. If you have any ground beef in your freezer and it says that on it, throw it away. Don't take any chances.

BALDWIN: Chuck it.

GUPTA: Yes.

BALDWIN: What do people need to know for when they do grill out on Monday?

GUPTA: Well, it's interesting.

E. coli, this particular bacteria, just to give you a little bit of context, a very small amount, just about 100 cells, can actually make you sick. That's a tiny, minuscule amount. And it doubles in size every 15 to 20 minutes.

So, if you leave meat out...

BALDWIN: It gets worse and worse.

GUPTA: I'm pointing this out just as a visual for people when they think about this Memorial Day weekend, it doubling in size in terms of the number of bacteria every 15 minutes.

Don't leave it out. And then when you do cook it, I keep a thermometer by the grill. Do you keep a thermometer by the grill?

BALDWIN: No.

(LAUGHTER)

GUPTA: Do you do a little look-see inside and sort of eyeball it?

BALDWIN: Yes.

GUPTA: A lot of people do that.

But I think that the thermometer actually works pretty well. We have got the temperatures there. I have got a little placard on my grill, Brooke, so I can remember those numbers there, 160 degrees for that ground meat.

BALDWIN: A placard?

GUPTA: But you can see it. I think it takes a second. Just put the thermometer in.

BALDWIN: OK.

GUPTA: That's really going to help you and your family stay safe as you're grilling this. But, again, with this particular product, if you find that lot number, chuck it out, like you said.

BALDWIN: OK. Dr. Gupta, thank you. GUPTA: You got it.

BALDWIN: Happy Memorial Day weekend.

(CROSSTALK)

GUPTA: And to you.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

Let's get to this, breaking now on CNN, the White House announcing the president has sent 80 U.S. troops to Chad to assist in the desperate search for the missing girls in Nigeria. Let me read this quote here.

This is from a letter to the Senate and House leaders -- quote -- "Approximately 80 U.S. armed forces personnel have deployed to Chad as part of the U.S. efforts to locate and support the safe return of over 200 schoolgirls who are reported to have been kidnapped in Nigeria. These personnel will support the operation of intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance aircraft for missions over northern Nigeria and the surrounding area. The force will remain in Chad until its support in resolving the kidnapping situation is no longer required.

"This action has been directed in furtherance of U.S. national security and foreign policy entrance -- interests" -- forgive me -- "pursuant to my constitutional authority to conduct U.S. foreign relations and as commander in chief and chief executive."

It goes: "I am providing this report as part of my efforts to keep the Congress fully informed, consistent with the War Powers Resolution. I appreciate the support of the Congress in these actions."

So there you have it, specific U.S. involvement. It's been -- I believe it's now over five weeks since those little girls were taken in the middle of the night from that school in Nigeria. We will have much more on that story. You know it. Bring back our girls. We will have more in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)