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Fantasy Inspired Stabbing; White House Apologized; Bergdahl Investigation; Norovirus Outbreaks

Aired June 03, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: We have to begin with this ghost story and a character named Slenderman allegedly inspired two young girls, I'm talking middle school, to lead their young friend into the woods and stab her 19 times. This is all according to police in this chilling case of how fantasy has become reality. Morgan Geyser and Anissa Weier allegedly lured their friend into this wooded area, this is just outside of Milwaukee. All of this after the three girls went roller skating and had a slumber party. According to this criminal complaint, this one victim was, quote, "one millimeter away from death."

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CHIEF RUSSELL JACK, WAUKESHA POLICE: The victim was able to crawl out of the woods onto the roadway near the end of Big Bend Road, where she was discovered by a bicyclist. She was transported to the Waukesha Memorial Hospital by the Waukesha Fire Department, where she underwent surgery for her injuries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: A lot of layers to this story. This is when it really gets bizarre, though, because both of these suspects, these 12-year-olds, had this fascination with a fictitious character called Slenderman. It's a character often featured on this website. It's known as Creepypasta Wiki. If you've never heard of it, it's a site that deals with death and horror stories. And police say the suspects had been planning this attack inspired by this site and this character since February. And during a court appearance yesterday, the parents of these two 12-year-olds were seen crying as they walked out. CNN's Rosa Flora joins me now from New York.

And, Rosa, from everything I've read here, this stabbing over the weekend, it wasn't the first plot these two young girls allegedly had planned, correct?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, so many creepy details. Now, I'll expand on these creepy details. Let me tell you, all of this is in the criminal complaint. These girls, according to this complaint, were plotting since February. And when they became familiar with this fictitious character that Brooke just described, they believed that they had to kill someone in order for them to join him and become his proxy.

So what do they do? They start to plot and plan for them to kill someone during their sleepover party on May 30th. And so they're on the bus and they're talking about this in code to make sure that no one knows what they're talking about. And they prepare for it on that day. They -- in their bag, they have granola bars, they have water and they have pictures of their parents because they don't want to forget what their parents look like. And then the plot. There are three of them.

Here we go. So the first one is duct tape over the mouth, stab her in the neck, and then run. Plot number two, kill her in the park bathroom, because the bathroom has a drain, and the blood can go down this drain, and then run. Plot number three, play hide-and-seek, stab her, and then go on to meet Slenderman in his mansion. Of course, now we know, according to this criminal complaint, that they went with plot number three. They stabbed -- allegedly stabbed this girl 19 times. Now, they are charged as adults. They're 12 years old, like you mentioned, Brooke, charged as adults. And the charge is attempted first-degree intentional homicide.

Now, we should add that we did talk to one of the girls' attorneys and they did say that based on all these details that you and I have been talking about, they do believe that there's a mental health issue. And this attorney said that they would like the girl evaluated.

BALDWIN: They are 12, Rosa. And as we learned, some of us for the first time about this character, Slenderman, or this Creepypasta website, have you had any luck getting response from the group that runs this site that the girls apparently were inspired by?

FLORES: You know, I checked out the site and actually on their home page they've got a tweet that's loud and clear asking you to go look at their statement. And their statement says, in part, "this Wiki does not endorse or advocate for killing, worship or otherwise replication of rituals of fictional works. There is a line between fiction and reality and it is up to you to realize where the line is. We are a literature site, not a satanic cult." And again, these girls are 12. And according to one of their attorneys, there could be a mental health issue, Brooke.

BALDWIN: All right, Rosa, thank you.

Let's pick up where you left off here and, you know, telling ghost stories around the camp fire, listen, I was a big fan of that back in the day, or at a slumber party. It's not uncommon. But to Rosa's point, you know, this blurred line between these stories and the real world really could be something new here and the Internet could be serving as the catalyst. The girls in Wisconsin were allegedly trying to impress Slenderman, the name of this ghostly figure on one of the sites, Creepypasta, which posed, as we mention, these different horror stories. Slenderman is a commonly featured character on this site. And to climb up into his realm, a user must kill someone. This is, again, one of the suspects told police.

Psychologist Wendy Walsh joins me from Los Angeles.

And, Wendy, my first thought in talking to you, you have a teenager. Before we get into any of this, have you heard of the Slenderman character? Have you heard of Creepypasta? WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: You know, I haven't heard of this particular website, but I have a 16-year-old daughter and we've been through a lot of vampires and werewolves -

BALDWIN: OK.

WALSH: And Stephen King is her favorite author. There's a lot of horror going on in my house. And always young girls, even well into their 20s, are the biggest consumers of true crime and horror because they perceive themselves to be victims in the culture and they're looking for ways to protect themselves. Unfortunately, it becomes addictive because they're also finding ways to die.

But -

BALDWIN: But.

WALSH: This is different.

BALDWIN: There's the "but" here. These are two 12-year-old girls. And somehow, somewhere up here, they have convinced themselves that according to some horror story on a website, if they kill someone, they join this realm? What?

WALSH: OK, this has to do with the developing brain and the age of these young girls. Children are born with wild imaginations. We healthfully (ph) evolve to have imaginations so we can have planning and move forward and strategize and even deal with some of the hard luck (ph) of childhood, the hard times. But if it's any evidence, adults have trouble defining or making a line in between fantasy and reality, there's a whole show on MTV called "Catfish" about people who think they're in love with someone on a computer, OK?

BALDWIN: Right.

WALSH: So you could also extrapolate that there are as many people who think they hate or are plotting murders. But when you're 12, the line is very difficult to distinguish. Adults have trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy on the Internet. So I really worry.

Now, the other piece I want to say, Brooke, is that these are girls. Adolescent girls. And for this age to show that level of aggression --

BALDWIN: Isn't that rare?

WALSH: Tells me either an emerging mental illness or somebody suffered some bad abuse themselves.

BALDWIN: Which we just don't know. But it's not often you hear about this kind of gruesome crime, sharing (ph) a knife 19 times into this other 12-year-old who apparently had it gone closer to a millimeter, you know, near her organs, she wouldn't be here.

As you're hearing all the different details, though, it's one thing to -- with our imaginations, or with a young girl's imagination, think through something. But how does one then go from thinking through to actually carrying it out, allegedly?

WALSH: Well, yes, it became a perfect storm when it translated from fantasy into reality. My gut instinct tells me that since only one girl brought the weapon, that there was a leader and there was a follower. And the leader may be the one who either has an emerging mental illness or who suffered so much aggression and child abuse, physical abuse in her own childhood. Again, we don't generally diagnose children until they turn 18, except for a conduct disorder. So we don't give them big personality disorders or mental illness until they turn 18. But stuff can still - is emerging along the way.

BALDWIN: And just to see their parents of these young suspects weeping, walking out of this courtroom yesterday. I'm sure the full picture will emerge, as it does, in coming days. Wendy Walsh, thank you so much for joining me.

Just ahead, we do have a bit of breaking news on that prisoner swap involving Bowe Bergdahl. Senator Dianne Feinstein says the White House is now apologizing for not warning Congress about releasing those five Taliban detainees. All of this, of course, as we heard from the president this morning, he's defending his decision. But to justify it, he cites the actions of former presidents. Is he right? We'll talk live with a presidential historian.

Also ahead, a judge's argument with a lawyer goes to a whole new level. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an (INAUDIBLE) created by the state.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, if I had a rock, I would throw it at you right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, this is a --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stop pissing me off. Just sit down. I'll take care of it. I don't need your help. Sit down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Now, you know what, I'm the public defender. I have a right to be here and I have a right to stand and represent my clients.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said sit down!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

President Obama says newly freed American soldier Bowe Bergdahl has yet to be interrogated, but the president is getting grilled for his decision to swap five mid to high-level Taliban leaders for the release of this Army sergeant. His fellow soldiers say these six men died while searching for Bergdahl. Well, today, while meeting with Poland's leader, President Obama said the exchange for Bergdahl's release upheld a, quote, "sacred rule to never leave a man behind in uniform."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Regardless of the circumstances, whatever those circumstances may turn out to be, we still get an American soldier back if he's held in captivity, period, full stop. We don't condition that.

Is there the possibility of some of them trying to return to activities that are detrimental to us? Absolutely. That's been true of all the prisoners that were released from Guantanamo. There's a certain recidivism rate that takes place. I wouldn't be doing it if I thought that it was contrary to American national security.

This is what happens at the end of wars. That was true for George Washington. That was true for Abraham Lincoln. That was true for FDR. That's been true of every combat situation, that at some point you make sure that you try to get your folks back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So that was the president this morning in Warsaw. Here's our senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns.

Because, Joe, you have some news now, because a lot of folks in Congress are saying, hang on a second, the White House did not notify us within that 30-day rule. And now you have news from the Senate Intelligence chair, Dianne Feinstein, that she got a phone call from the White House.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Right. That is the information we have. She did get a call from Tony Blinken over at the White House, who apologized, apparently, to Senator Dianne Feinstein, who is the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, for not informing them in advance of the release of Bowe Bergdahl.

Now, we're also getting some more information about what some other members of Congress learned about the administration's prisoner swap deal here. It is our understanding, according to a source, that most of the substantive discussions between the White House and the office of House Speaker John Boehner ended in 2011 with the exception of one briefing in 2012. We're told there was a lot of pushback from people here in Congress on this. So much so that then Secretary Hillary Clinton wrote a letter responding to some of the concerns, but the source says that letter remains classified to this day.

Some of the pushback we've heard about from John Boehner and others was, questions like, are we exhausting all means to rescue Bergdahl, concerns about national security being compromised in this swap deal with the five officers of the Taliban in exchange for one U.S. soldier. So a lot more questions being raised here on Capitol Hill. And the question is, who knew what, when, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Joe Johns, thank you. Want to get reaction to that, and also just some historic context when it comes to prisoner swaps in this country. Let's bring in historian Julian Zelizer, professor at Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School.

Professor, welcome back here. And if I may, just -- you've heard the reporting there from Joe Johns, this phone call from the White House and Tony Blinken, the deputy national security adviser, to Dianne Feinstein saying, we're sorry. Have you ever heard of this before?

PROFESSOR JULIAN ZELIZER, HISTORIAN: Well, yes, I think tensions between Congress and the president on all national security matters are pretty great. Not just with Republicans, but with Democrats who often feel that they are not informed about what's going on with the administration, and then dealing with these scandals or controversies as they unfold.

BALDWIN: OK. Let's take it back. Historically speaking, we heard the president, and he even referenced his predecessors way back, you know, to George Washington he mentioned from Poland, have made similar decisions about never leaving a man or a woman behind on the battlefield. And, I mean, just doing my own research today, this goes back to revolutionary wartimes, does it not?

ZELIZER: Absolutely. There's many examples of dealing with enemies and arranging different kind of swaps and negotiations to release American soldiers and other kinds of diplomats. So, the Iran Hostage Crisis was a famous one from Jimmy Carter, where he negotiated an end. Ronald Reagan did it in 1985 working with the Israelis to try to free hostages in Beirut through the release of people who were being detained by the Israelis. So --

BALDWIN: But what about the price for that?

ZELIZER: Well, the price is the controversy, meaning some say that then instigates more hostage taking and it encourages enemies to engage in these kinds of actions. But the evidence is unclear. Some say, you know, this will happen anyway. Regardless of what -- or what is not done by the U.S. This case is a little different in that it looks like the soldier actually left. And I think people are trying to figure out what happened in the initial moments.

BALDWIN: That's what many are now coming out and saying, folks who, you know, some of these men who served in his platoon in that province in Afghanistan are saying that he did leave his post, although we know ultimately once Bowe Bergdahl gets better, all of those kinds of questions will be asked of him.

But let me ask you this, Julian, because I was talking yesterday -- it was a fascinating conversation with this Vietnam War veteran who was a P.O.W. for five-plus years. He even came home on the same plane as John McCain. And he was talking to me about his time in those camps and how, you know, he did know of other prisoners, he wasn't totally alone, they had this code to communicate. And so this situation with Bowe Bergdahl, the fact that he was likely alone, that he was held by the Haqqani network, can you think of any other situation in which an American has been held captive like this, anything that comes close to this?

ZELIZER: I'd have to think. I don't know off the top of my head. Most of the examples we've talked about are groups, whether you're talking about a situation with North Korea under Lyndon Johnson, where a group was held hostage, or with the Vietnamese P.O.W. Here we are talking about a single person. And in these unusual circumstances, which also makes the politics, I think, a little trickier, more confusing here in the U.S.

BALDWIN: Julian Zelizer, thank you, as always, for coming on, professor at Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School. Thank you very much.

ZELIZER: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And we are getting some breaking information now from the Pentagon on how the Army will proceed with Bowe Bergdahl, we were just talking about. Those new details when we come back. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, let's get to our breaking news here on CNN. A statement from the Army on how they are planning to proceed with the investigation into the situation surrounding Bowe Bergdahl. Let's go straight to the Pentagon to Barbara Starr.

And, Barbara, what's the statement say?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, good afternoon.

The secretary of the Army, John McHugh, has just issued a statement. He says, again, the top priority is Bowe Bergdahl's recovery. But once that happens, here are the next steps. The Army says it will begin a review in a, quote, "comprehensive, coordinated effort that will include speaking with Sergeant Bergdahl to better learn from him the circumstances of his disappearance and captivity. All other decisions will be made thereafter and in accordance with appropriate regulations, policies and practices."

So let's decipher this for everybody. What are we talking about here?

BALDWIN: Yes.

STARR: The Army is going to let him recover. Then they are going to talk to him. They will begin a review. What officials are telling us on the sidelines is, this will begin with a basic fact-finding review, a fact-finding investigation. One of these was conducted five years ago when he first disappeared. It has been closed, but not really, because they could never talk to him. So essentially they started another fact-finding investigation, talking to him, talking to whoever else they need to talk to, try to put all the pieces together.

This then will tell the Army where things stand. And it will be up to the Army, up to the commanders, to decide the next steps after that. Do they want to proceed with disciplinary action against Sergeant Bergdahl? Do they just dismiss him from the Army? The options are completely open. We always hear about commanders' discretion. It really will be up to the Army to decide what they want to do next, after this review is completed, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Two questions since I have you, Barbara Starr. One, do we know if that review and those questions from the Army, would that begin once he comes back to the states, presumably to the hospital in San Antonio? And, two, do we have any idea within this, you know, tick tock when he gets to see his parents?

STARR: Let me - let me address the parents first. We don't is the answer. His doctors and his psychology team, it is them working with Bowe Bergdahl that will decide when the time is right for that. He now is in what they call phase two at Landstuhl Hospital in Germany, still really very much in a hospital environment. They need to get him clearly a little bit better before they're going to bring him back to the United States.

That will make his recovery proceed along. And what the Army is basically saying, they want to question him once he really is further down the road in recovery. I don't think anybody believes at this point, just a couple of days into this, after five years in captivity, he's really ready to talk in detail about this in any kind of fashion that the Army would want to hear, for a legal proceeding. His parents, that will be in the coming days, but no one is exactly saying when, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Barbara Starr, thank you so much, at the Pentagon with that - with that update.

And more news just in involving your health. If you have ever had food poisoning, oh, and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, there is a good chance you got it while dining out. Every year, 20 million people got sick from norovirus in the U.S. And a new report by the CDC says it is oftentimes spread by restaurant workers. Senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here with me.

Oh, I don't -

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Have people finished lunch?

BALDWIN: I mean, I don't -

COHEN: Yes.

BALDWIN: Put the sandwich down. Tell me what the report says.

COHEN: Oh, it is --- you know, it's important to know, but it's certainly ick. So what this report found is norovirus, number one cause of food poisoning outbreaks in the United States, and most of the time when people get - those millions of people get norovirus, hands. Hands are the reason. And the reason why workers' hands are the reason, is that one in five food service workers has reported working while sick -- not recovering from -- but while sick with vomiting and diarrhea. And I'm sure you can guess why they're working while sick, right, minimum wage, no benefits - BALDWIN: They want the money.

COHEN: No sick leave. They're supporting a family. They're going in to work.

BALDWIN: They're not doing this.

COHEN: They are not washing their hands as much as they should. They've actually -- researchers have actually gone to restaurants and watched and they know that they're not watching their hands as much as they should. And again, restaurants just -- they don't pay these guys when they're sick. And you not only should be out of work while you're sick, but 48 hours after you've gotten better, because they can still shed the virus and get people sick.

BALDWIN: That is the worst thing ever.

COHEN: It is.

BALDWIN: Ever, ever, ever, ever.

COHEN: And the CDC, in pretty strong language, says, look, restaurants need to think about this. And they need to think about policies that would encourage people to stay home because they are getting the rest of us sick. And we're not -- it's not just that we're running to the bathroom. I mean this is landing some people on their deathbed.

BALDWIN: Oh.

COHEN: I mean hundreds and hundreds of people die from food poisoning every year.

BALDWIN: Don't go to work. Please, don't go to work.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much.

COHEN: Thanks.

BALDWIN: OK. Pick that sandwich back up because we're going to move on.

Just ahead, more on our breaking news that the White House reportedly apologized to Congress for the secrecy involving Bowe Bergdahl. Plus, one of his fellow soldiers says Bergdahl is at best a deserter, and at worst a traitor, but President Obama is now responding to that criticism as many question the deal that freed him. You will hear from him, next.

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