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Bergdahl Controversy; New Video of Prisoner Release

Aired June 04, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There may be a constitutional question which excuses him because he was doing his job as commander in chief. But that will have to be determined by the court of public opinion and by Congress and the courts -- Brooke.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: OK. Tom Foreman, thank you so much.

Now this. We roll on, hour two, top of this hour. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And as we have been discussing, in America's longest war, this moment, these pieces of video could be the most trusting moment the public will ever see. Watch this with me, this brief truce between enemies. You see the white flag here as U.S. soldier Bowe Bergdahl goes from Taliban captivity to American custody there in Afghanistan.

The Defense Department says there is absolutely no reason to doubt this video. Here he was on that truck before he was handed over. This is all part of a 17-minute piece of footage in which the Taliban really congratulate themselves after getting back five of their leaders, the price for freeing Bowe Bergdahl.

Multiple White House officials have said the need for Bergdahl's release grew increasingly urgent as his health, they say, was deteriorating. So, note this clip from the video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): They first asked us about the health condition of the captive and told (INAUDIBLE) tell them the truth if he was not well, but we saw him, that he was fine, and we told them that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: In the footage -- and there's a lot here -- this narrative says, 18 fighters came armed. At one point, one looks like he is holding an RPG as this Black Hawk helicopter approaches.

After it lands, Bergdahl, flanked by the Taliban, moves toward these three members of U.S. special forces, hands raised at first. Two of these men you see here, they shake hands with members of the Taliban. One man actually uses his left hand to shake and then on the far left uses his hand to wave. Special forces then backing away, facing members of the Taliban, watch, before they then turn around and get Bowe Bergdahl there in that Black Hawk helicopter. Before Bergdahl's exit, one fighter did have a message. And that message was, he tells the 28-year-old soldier -- quote -- "Don't come back to Afghanistan. You will not make it back alive."

Let's get the experts' view on really this absolutely extraordinary exchange.

We have Mike Baker, once a covert operations office for the CIA, and our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.

So, welcome to both of you.

And, Mike Baker, just first to you. When you watch all of this, there are so many layers, between the handshakes and the hand over the heart and the walking away and the left-hand wave. What jumps out to you as item number one.

MIKE BAKER, FORMER CIA COVERT OPERATIONS OFFICER: Well, number one is that the Taliban doesn't operate in bubble. They don't live in a cave. They understand the importance of social media. They understand the importance of marketing and public relations.

This is a scripted propaganda piece for them. And they worked on it. And they understood they controlled the environment. They controlled the daytime location of the release. And so they're doing this in a sense to show their credibility, to show their strength as warriors to their supporters and to try to use it as a recruiting tool.

So, from that perspective, it's entirely expected. It's fascinating, again, in the speed of information that flows out there and the fact that the Taliban puts this out as quickly as they do, but not a surprise that they have done it.

BALDWIN: Jim Sciutto, you agree with that, that the Taliban knew darn well that we would be talking about this, they wanted this spread around the world?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. They have got a history of doing this thing, whether it's releases or attacks on U.S. soldiers. It's an opportunity for recruitment.

And this from their point of view shows a victory, right? They stood up to America, all its weaponry, all its technology, all its troops. And they had the upper hand here, in their view. They got what they wanted. They got five of their own back. But, still, as you watch it, there are -- it really is a remarkable moment, particularly that one on screen right now, where you have these sworn adversaries in our longest war, 13 years, coming face to face for seconds there.

BALDWIN: Shaking hands.

SCIUTTO: But in a brief -- shaking hands, a sign of respect from one of them, putting his left hand up to his chest there, an Afghan sign of respect.

Just for that moment, an interesting truce lasted seconds. And then you handed Bergdahl off. The other thing of course that sticks in my mind is just Bergdahl's demeanor, the blinking eyes, the kind of awkward, stumbling walk towards the helicopter. What a moment for him as well.

BALDWIN: You know, I have talked to a number of people and I have read a lot about how different people are reading into the eye- blinking, Mike.

What do you see? One thought could be, he went through hell for a couple of years. Maybe he was blindfolded in darkness. But not everyone agrees with that. What do you see when you see the blinking?

BAKER: Well, it's not inconsistent with hostages who have been held for a long period of time. And it's been going on five years for him.

Physical degradation, you can see that during the course of the various videos that have been released during the time of his captivity. And he's got that deer-in-the-headlights look. He's completely unaware of what is going on around him.

I wouldn't read too much into that. The body language, again, is consistent with a long-term captive. And he's obviously just unaware of what is happening, who is involved, and what his ultimate fate is going to be.

But it's kudos to the military. I think from the time they rocked up on that site to lift off, it was maybe a minute at the most.

BALDWIN: A few seconds, yes.

BAKER: Right. Right.

So, but, again, heavily scripted. They know exactly what they wanted. A lot of anxiety, obviously. They got to make sure that Bergdahl is not booby-trapped, that they're not going light up the Black Hawk as it takes off. But I think that they did a very good of effecting this exchange.

Now, what happens obviously afterwards is in the hands of the military. And those debriefings started soon after they got him to a safe location.

BALDWIN: Let me go back to your point about making sure he wasn't booby-trapped. You can see. I counted at least two different times -- watch with me -- where you see members of our guys, U.S. special forces, patting him down once and then twice before they bring him into this helicopter, presumably worried that he was strapped, right, with some kind of explosives in the case that maybe someone gave a signal.

But I was talking to a former Navy SEAL earlier and he told me he was shocked that they didn't spend longer and dare I say more thoroughly searching him before putting him in that chopper.

BAKER: Yes. Well, who knows what the circumstances -- you can't speculate unless you're on the ground. You just don't know. Your primary directive there is take hold of the individual, gain control of him, get him on the platform and get off the X.

So, they did what they felt was necessary at that point. They felt secure enough to take off. And I'm not going to second-guess their judgment on that one.

BALDWIN: Sure. Sure. Of course. Of course not.

But to the bigger picture and the bigger message, Jim Sciutto, this is one piece of video. You just take this one piece of video of context, it looks -- perhaps you could see the Taliban looking weak. Here they are handing over this one valued prize for them, right, this one American soldier, but in the bigger picture, this is part of a bigger video in which we see those five detainees released from Guantanamo in Doha, Qatar, and here you see on the screen, don't come back to Afghanistan.

Would this be a recruitment tool?

SCIUTTO: Absolutely.

I think you have these words to -- they were directed from captor to Bergdahl, himself. Don't come back to Afghanistan. The captor went on, based on translations, to say next time you won't get out alive. But as they put that up on the screen, clearly, the message there is to the Americans as well.

The year that the president announces the drawdown of forces, this is presaging what they are going to call a victory. Right? We outlasted the Americans in Afghanistan. I think that's part of the message there.

But, also, as you say, the video goes on. It shows the other handoff that took place in Doha, Qatar, by the side of a road, those four of five SUVs pulling up and then the joyful reunions between those five Taliban captors and their colleagues in Qatar.

So, it's -- you know, this is a big moment for them. And they see it as a victory. They're going to be advertising it. And I'm sure it's getting a lot of clicks on extremist Web sites right now.

BALDWIN: A lot of clicks, I'm sure, indeed.

And, finally, Mike, just ending with you, as we of course are sitting here parsing through this, do you think that people at the Pentagon are doing the same thing?

BAKER: Well, yes. There's not -- with something like this, where you're talking about a hostage exchange or handover, there is not necessarily a lot to learn from a video like this.

It's not like an al Qaeda video where -- as we have gotten recently from Yemen, where there are clues that you can pick up.

BALDWIN: OK.

BAKER: But there's -- they will be going through it. There is no doubt about that.

But the focus right now is on the debriefings with Bowe Bergdahl, understand the circumstances of his capture, get him reintegrated, and then follow on with whatever decisions have to be made.

BALDWIN: OK. Mike Baker and Jim Sciutto, thank you both so much to both of you for that one.

BAKER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And coming up next, we are learning of several meetings in 2011, 2012, between top U.S. and Taliban leaders to discuss this release of Bowe Bergdahl. Why didn't it get done then? What was the sticking point? And why was Hillary Clinton apparently skeptical of this whole swap?

Plus, those detainees, as we were just discussing, here is the video in Qatar. These are the guys who were in Gitmo. And now they are free in Doha. Who is watching them? Who are they with? Can they get in touch with terrorist groups? We have a live report from Qatar with more on what these men are doing right now.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

New details are emerging here about the Obama administration's long effort to free Bowe Bergdahl and they raise myriad questions over whether a prisoner exchange would have happened if Hillary Clinton were still secretary of state.

Former officials involved in the process tell CNN that Clinton was skeptical of early plans to trade these five Taliban detainees at Guantanamo Bay for Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl. They say she wanted a much tougher deal and that she was concerned the Taliban would not hold up their end of the bargain.

The former officials describe an early framework for negotiation approved by Clinton, including a two-phrase release -- two-phase release -- forgive me -- of the Gitmo detainees, three to be released initially, and then some 60 days later that the Taliban would hand over Bergdahl for the other two detainees.

Also in the mix here, stricter supervision by the detainees in Qatar and moves towards a wider reconciliation with the Taliban, including opening a Taliban office in Doha, Qatar, and getting the Taliban to renounce terrorism.

The former officials also tell CNN there is no guarantee Hillary Clinton would have signed off on the prisoner swap in the end.

So, let's talk about this our chief political correspondent and host of "STATE OF THE UNION," Candy Crowley.

Candy, nice to see you.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Brooke.

BALDWIN: When it comes to the political implications here, the realities of this Bowe Bergdahl release, do you think it could have, it would have even happened had Secretary of -- Clinton been secretary of state?

CROWLEY: Oh, man.

I honestly don't even know if she could answer that. Why? Because, as best I understand it from reading these -- and, remember, these are friends of hers. Largely, they're saying, well, she was kind of against this deal and she wanted a bigger deal, et cetera, et cetera.

As far as I know, these -- from what I read, these talks or these discussions took place in 2011. We are much further along. One of the things that was pressuring this administration at this point is the pullout. We are a lot closer to a U.S. pullout.

There was fear that the leverage, whatever leverage the U.S. had over the Haqqani Network, which was holding Bergdahl, or over the Taliban was fading, because we had a timetable out there. The president said, and, by the way, everybody will be out by this time. So, the circumstances are different.

I will say that there was a lot of skepticism on Capitol Hill as well. You talk to the folks, Democrats and Republicans, who, say, look, we haven't had these discussions for a while. But the truth is, a lot of folks said, wait, this is a bad idea.

So, is it believable that Hillary Clinton was against the concept of this? Absolutely. That she wanted more from it than the Obama administration actually got out of it, like throw a longer-term prospect for talks with the Taliban? She did. And that is totally believable.

The questioning is whether the Obama administration thought we have run out of options, no amount of bargaining is going to get this out of them. Let's move now.

BALDWIN: Sure. No, I understand that the pressures and the circumstances surrounding this in 2014 much different than perhaps 2011.

CROWLEY: Right.

BALDWIN: Then the other bit of this is that the administration sent Susan Rice out to speak on their behalf on this very issue.

And, of course, we think of Susan Rice, we remember the outcry post- Sunday shows, Benghazi, the attack, spontaneous crowd reaction, not the work of Islamist militants, so she said. So let me just play something Rice Sunday said on your show, Candy, about why Congress was not notified, to your point, before these five Gitmo detainees were traded for Bowe Bergdahl. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN RICE, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: The Department of Defense consulted with the Department of Justice.

And given the acute urgency of the health condition of Sergeant Bergdahl, and given the president's constitutional responsibilities, it was determined that it was necessary and appropriate not to adhere to the 30-day notification requirement, because it would have potentially meant that the opportunity to get Sergeant Bergdahl would have been lost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So she said appropriate not to notify, but then you have these phone calls, right, from Tony Blinken, the administration's national security adviser, what, two nights ago to these senators apologizing. I'm confused.

CROWLEY: Yes, well, exactly.

This is number two, Susan Rice's number two, who calls Senator Dianne Feinstein. She is chairwoman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, says, I'm sorry, it was an oversight, it's an oversight that we didn't call you.

But you have Susan Rice on TV saying, no, we checked with the Justice Department and they said this was fine.

So, obviously, listen, there are a lot of holes in this. Bergdahl, we were really worried. We had to act quickly. He was really sick. That is yet to be proven and seems to be disproven by those who have seen him physically and said, he walked out, he looked fine. We have seen the video.

It doesn't mean he wasn't getting sicker or thinner or whatever. So, there a just lot of holes in this along the way that it doesn't appear the administration knew they would have to try and fill.

BALDWIN: Well, they're holes that I'm sure in the coming weeks and months we will be trying to fill in.

CROWLEY: Yes.

BALDWIN: Candy Crowley, thank you so much.

CROWLEY: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: We watch you on Sundays, "STATE OF THE UNION" 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Coming up next, soldiers who were on the front lines with Bowe Bergdahl, they are speaking out. Do they blame him for the deaths of some soldiers who were looking for him? CNN's Jake Tapper just talked to Bergdahl's squad leader from their time in Afghanistan, his very candid answer to that question next. Also ahead, these five free Gitmo, detainees, as we mentioned, now in Qatar for at least for the next year, who is making sure they don't pick up the phone or hop online and contact terror cells? We will answer that question in a live report from Doha.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

One might think the release of an American soldier from the hands of the Taliban would be celebrated by all, including that soldier's unit. Well, apparently, that's not entirely the case here for Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl, because some soldiers who served with him in Paktika province there say he wandered off his base during a time of war in 2009 and that -- because of that, he should be facing military trial.

Let me bring in CNN's Jake Tapper. He's the host of "THE LEAD."

Jake, you have been talking to all kinds of people about this, but I just want to begin here with all this criticism with regard to his squad, his unit in Afghanistan, criticism of this organization, criticism of lack of leadership. Are those criticisms fair?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I wasn't there, so I can't really speak to whether or not the criticisms are fair.

There was discipline of some members of Blackfoot Company. What had happened was there was, I believe, a videographer from "The Guardian." I might have some of these details not entirely correct. But I believe there was a videographer for "The Guardian" when they were digging fortifications in their observation post.

And several of the men were filmed not wearing their full protective body armor, not wearing their helmets as they were doing this work in the sun. And that video made its way around the world and some commanders were not happy with it and some people were demoted as a result of it. There was discipline.

But the soldiers with whom I have spoken who are in Blackfoot Company and who were there say that they thought that the rap was kind of unfair. If they should have been disciplined, the discipline was much stronger than it should have been, because it was something seen around the world, but it really had more to do with how difficult it was to dig while wearing a full kit and helmet.

BALDWIN: OK. I knew you were not there, but I know you have been talking to a lot of people who were.

And then you have this from Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel. He said today that it is unfair, his word, unfair to Sergeant Bergdahl and his family really to even presume anything about his motivations for leaving the base in 2009.

Can you just further clarify about what we are hearing about these six soldiers who reportedly died searching for Bowe Bergdahl?

TAPPER: Well, what I have heard is there are facts and there are speculation.

I have not heard any of these soldiers say that they thought he left to go join the Taliban. That's not something that I have heard them say. What I have heard them say is, in retrospect, looking back, he had made comments about wanting to leave, wanting to walk to China, wanting to walk to India, and that he was kind of a dreamer type who was a good soldier and yet also had this other side to him where he was kind of otherworldly, that he was somebody who had in the previous days talked about what would happen if my sensitive items, meaning my night-vision goggles, my kit, and my gun, what would happen if that disappeared? Would that be trouble?

And he was told yes. And when he disappeared, all that stuff was left behind. None of it disappeared with him. And that he had spoken against the world effort, and that he had mailed home all of his sensitive items. So, to a man, the members of his squad and Blackfoot Company say that they think that he left on his own.

And then they heard things, heard chatter and heard secondhand accounts or firsthand accounts from Afghans who say they had seen an American walking somewhere. But nobody says this is why he did what he did. They are mad that he left and they are convinced that he left purposefully.

BALDWIN: You talked to the squad's leader just a short time ago.

TAPPER: Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead. Tell me who he is. We have the sound bite.

TAPPER: He is the first -- this is his first TV interview. We found him in a small town in parts unknown.

He's Justin Gerleve. He was Bergdahl's squad leader. He was with him at the observation post the night and morning that Bergdahl disappeared. And I asked him -- because a lot of people have been wondering about this figure of six soldiers killed during the search for Bergdahl.

And that is a number that a lot of soldiers have talked about why they feel that's accurate, because in the ensuing weeks and months, their primary mission was to search for Bergdahl and six men were killed during the course of those months.

I asked Gerleve what he thought. Did he think Bergdahl should be held responsible for all six of those? Obviously, the Taliban is held primarily responsible. But does Bergdahl bear some responsibility? And here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JUSTIN GERLEVE, BERGDAHL'S FORMER SQUAD LEADER: I can't really say I blame Bergdahl to the fullest extent, but if he wouldn't of deserted us, these soldiers very well could have been in a different place at a different time, rather than the place that the time took of their death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Now I can't speculate as to Mr. Gerleve's beard, Brooke.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I was wondering.

TAPPER: I just want to touch on it, because a lot of soldiers I know when they get out of the Army, when they leave the Army, they spend about a year doing what they have not been allowed to do for previous five, 10, 15 years, which is not shave.

BALDWIN: OK.

TAPPER: I don't know if that is Gerleve's beard is the way it is. he seems a rather rustic man. His nickname is Bear, but just wanted to explain that to a degree. You might have been curious.

BALDWIN: OK. I was, indeed. You answered my curiosity.

We will look for that interview, Mr. Tapper, at the top of the hour on "THE LEAD." Thank you, sir, so much for sharing that interview with us, previewing that for us on this show.

TAPPER: Thank you.

Coming up next, we have to talk about these five Gitmo detainees, all part of this prisoner swap released, right, in exchange for Bowe Bergdahl. Here they were being welcomed in Doha, Qatar. What are they up to right now? Who is watching them? Are they communicating? Can they talk on the phone? Can they get online? We have a live report answering some of those questions for you in Doha.

Also ahead, what does this release mean for the detention center at Guantanamo Bay? You know President Obama made the promise to shut it down. Could this be that first step? Stay right here. You're watching CNN.

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