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Controversy Continues Around Bergdahl Swap; Polls Indicate Americans Don't Require As Much Money to Be Happy; Inside Manhattan's Hipster Mega Church

Aired June 05, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

What started with a transfer of a prisoner of war in the mountains of Afghanistan has now morphed into this political firestorm in Washington. And while the president is unapologetic, a lot of lawmakers out there are unrelenting in the criticism of the administration for swapping those five Guantanamo detainees for one U.S. soldier, Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl.

Enter an independent lawmaker, Senator Angus King of Maine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ANGUS KING, I-MAINE: I am a little bit amused of -- we've got 535 secretaries of states and presidents around here.

This is an outfit that can't decide its way out of a wet paper bag, and all of a sudden, everybody's saying, well, I would have done it this way and I would have done it that way.

And, meanwhile, we're not getting anything done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's start there with my next two guests. On the left, Democratic strategist Van Jones, co-host of CNN'S "CROSSFIRE," and CNN Republic strategist Alice Stewart.

So first, welcome to both of you.

ALICE STEWART, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Great to be here.

BALDWIN: Alice, let me begin with you.

Does Senator King have a point?

STEWART: He has a point in that we are still very early on in the stages of finding out exactly what happened here, but also, Gloria Borger made a great point made earlier in that there are key Democrats who are on the Senate intel committee, Dianne Feinstein, for one, that wasn't aware of this transfer, and they should have known, first and foremost.

And when you have key Democrats that support this administration scratching their heads, I think the administration has a lot of questions to answer.

BALDWIN: They're all, lots of them on both sides of the aisle, jumping in with different opinions, frustrated.

Van Jones, what do you make of all that?

VAN JONES, CNN HOST, "CROSSFIRE": First of all, I just want to point out that Bergdahl is still in the hospital. We're talking about an American POW who's literally -- we don't even know if he is able to talk or communicate with people.

And I think we need to be very aware he was used as a pawn over there in Afghanistan. He should not be a pawn here.

The same Republicans, who are attacking the president for getting him out, were just months ago attacking the president for having not gotten him out.

The same Republicans that are now upset that he's home, had he died in captivity, the same Republicans would have attacked the president for being weak and feckless for not getting him home.

So we don't want this guy -- at some point, we've got to come back to our common humanity as Americans. We don't want this young man to be a pawn here in his own country.

I think the Republicans who -- in particular, who were attacking this president for not having brought him home, should be on the president's side now for having done what they said he should do, which is to do everything possible to get him back home.

BALDWIN: I hear you, Van.

Alice, let me just pose this back to you, the notion from this Senate aide who told us that the administration is very fearful had this at all leaked that Bergdahl would have been killed.

STEWART: I think if you can't trust our Senate intel committee, we're in serious trouble.

And Van continues to point the finger at Republicans. There is bipartisan outrage here, or frustration, with the fact that five top terror leaders were released from Guantanamo Bay without the 30-day notice to members of Congress. That's the big concern.

What are they going to do? Just open up the back door of Gitmo and let all the rest of the terror detainees out? That's the big concern, the fact that they weren't notified of this.

And, granted, our thoughts and prayers go out to the Bergdahl family. And hopefully he gets home safe, soon, but the bigger question is what we're doing with these terrorist detainees at Gitmo. BALDWIN: In terms of these detainees, Van Jones, the president himself

said yesterday at that speech from Warsaw, Poland, that they could very likely go back and fight with the bad guys.

JONES: Yeah, listen, nobody on either side is on the side of the Taliban. Nobody on either side has said anything but these are very dangerous people.

But the president of the United States has to make very tough choices. And the reality is that the Constitution makes him the commander in chief, and he cannot be hamstrung when it comes time to getting a soldier home.

He had the opportunity to get this guy home. If you see -- if you're the people who've seen the video, very disturbing videos, I wish that the president had as many say, let Dianne Feinstein know.

You pick one senator. You pick two. You at least you try. I don't understand why they didn't do that, but I will say this. It is better that he's home here, and for us to deal with it, than have the Taliban torturing this guy to death.

BALDWIN: Let me pivot to Vladimir Putin, Russian President Vladimir Putin today, not speaking very highly of Hillary Clinton at all.

In this interview that aired on French TV, he was asked about comments that Hillary Clinton made about Russia's foreign policy.

And so Vladimir Putin said this, "It's better not to argue with women." He later said that weakness is -- and I'm quoting him -- "not the worst quality for a woman."

Van Jones? Your reaction?

JONES: I mean, I just think obviously it's outrageous, but here's the thing. Putin talking about weakness, this is a bully. This is a guy who has run over Crimea. He's not standing up to any tough countries. He's not coming over to the United States. He's not messing with China. He's picking on little teeny-weeny little countries that he can run over.

Hillary Clinton would put this guy over her knee and spank him and go on with her business. He has no business calling Hillary Clinton weak.

BALDWIN: That's a visual.

JONES: I mean, look, Hillary Clinton is not weak. You're weak when you're a bully and you're running over other countries.

And if he wants to start some stuff with Hillary Clinton, he needs to back down because he's going to lose that fight every time.

BALDWIN: OK, Van Jones --

STEWART: I think Hillary Clinton was right in saying he's a tough guy with thin skin, but I don't condone or approve of his comments of her being weak as a woman.

Her weakness is as secretary of state and her failure in Benghazi, in the Russian "reset," and also inability to recognize Boko Haram as a terrorist organization.

Her weakness was as secretary of state, had nothing to do with her gender whatsoever.

BALDWIN: All right, Alice Stewart, Van Jones, thank you.

We'll watch Van tonight, 6:30 Eastern here on "CROSSFIRE" on CNN.

Coming up, have you ever thought about this, how much money you would need to be truly happy? Fifty thousand dollars, the big six figures, a hundred thousand, half a million?

What Americans say they really need to make a year to be happy. The answer may surprise you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Simple question, how much money would you need to be happy, specifically how big a salary would you need to be content?

CNNMoney just conducted a survey, and the results may actually surprise you.

CNN business correspondent Alison Kosik is at the New York Stock Exchange with the final figures, and the answer is?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I'll just say this, you know that cliche, Brooke, money really doesn't buy happiness?

Well, there's a bit of truth in that, if you look at the results of this study. I mean, look, Americans who responded to this survey said, we do want to make enough money so we're not scrounging for our next meal.

But it also found that Americans don't think they need to be making six figures to be happy. In fact, just over half the people surveyed said the magic number would actually be less than $100,000, with many saying anything between $50,000 and $75,000 would work.

That actually jibes with another study that found emotional well-being rose with income, but not much beyond $75,000, meaning beyond making $75,000, did you know your happiness comes from other factors? Maybe vacations and life and --

BALDWIN: Yes.

KOSIK: --- watching your kids do stuff and --

BALDWIN: Friends and family and dogs and all those things, but there's a distinction here, because the question, how much money would you want to be happy? Then there's the question, how much do you need to be rich? What's that answer? KOSIK: Exactly. Twenty-three percent of respondents said they'd want a six-figure paycheck to feel rich, you know, and then said somewhere between $100,000 and $200,000.

In fact, a full 60 percent thought incomes below $250,000 would be enough. You're not seeing really these huge numbers. You're seeing anywhere from $100,000 to $200,000.

So you're not seeing greed take over here, which I find is kind of interesting.

BALDWIN: I know. That's a whole other segment like the psychological evaluation, America, with the new numbers. Marinade on that.

Alison Kosik, thank you very much.

And now this, the music, the crowds, the dancing, the lighting, looks like a concert only it's a church.

A look at this alternative mega church, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: While some churches out there are struggling to attract younger members, 20- and 30-something-year-olds are waiting in long lines just to get into Hillsong's services in New York. A 35-year-old hipster is the main attraction.

CNN's Poppy Harlow talked with this unusual pastor about the church's success, and where he stands on several major issues.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The music, the light, the crowd, it looks like a rock concert, and the lines around the block are enough to make many night club envious.

But this, this is church. And some New Yorkers can't seem to get enough of their unlikely pastor, Carl Lentz.

CARL LENTZ, HILLSONG NYC PASTOR: I will not say that I walk through the valley of the shadow of death. I take a look at my life, and realize there's nothing left.

HARLOW: With his leather jacket and body ink, Carl Lentz looks more like rock star than a head of a Pentecostal church.

C. LENTZ: Says the Lord is my shepherd, and I lack nothing.

Hustlers, on three. One, two three, hustles.

HARLOW: But this 35-year-old basketball fanatic, a walk-on at N.C. State who calls himself the "Unofficial Chaplin" in for the New York Knicks is a pastor, the lead pastor of a church, Hillsong NYC.

C. LENTZ: If you've ran from church your whole life, this is like the organization, but we meet in a club, and we're going to sing the songs you used to sing in and we're not going to preach a message you think you're going to hear.

HARLOW: You take issue when people call this religion.

C. LENTZ: I do. You can be religious about being a car thief. You can be a religious, you know, criminal, but we have a relationship with God.

I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

Come on somebody that is worth of Pentecostal shout down.

HARLOW: This is the American branch of Australian mega church Hillsong, which boasts some 75,000 members in 12 countries.

Lentz and his wife Laura started Hillsong NYC three years ago after meeting at the church's Bible college in Sidney.

LENTZ: And I got on my, you know, proverbial knees one day and said, Jesus, I may give this a shot with you in charge.

LAURA LENTZ, WIFE OF CARL LENTZ: We have to try to create a place that is safe to people that's like home of people.

It's not for everyone, and that's OK, and that's the great diversity and the beauty of the house of God, the church.

HARLOW: On an average Sunday, some 6,000 followers pore in over the day's five services.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just leave like filled with Holy Spirit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't feel judged at all when you walk in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when I came here I found what I was looking for, I found God.

HARLOW: You found God?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simple and plain, yes. His presence here, it's phenomenal

HARLOW: The church baptisms are carried out here in a Time's Square hotel swimming pool.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel so amazing, I feel new.

C. LENTZ: This narrow gate to Jesus, some people are rolling right by it.

HARLOW: Watch Lentz preach and you'll see his veins pop out of his neck. He is intensity silences the entire congregation.

C. LENTZ: Jesus is here.

HARLOW: Whether or not you agree with his message, there is no denying Lentz is magnetic.

C. LENTZ: And you cannot find hope, this has to be your moment to say, "Let me try the chief shepherd that has never failed anybody. Let me give the creator a shot at my life. Let me give the --".

HARLOW: Is Carl the next the next Brian Houston, the next Joel Osteen?

BRIAN HOUSTON, FOUNDER, HILLSONG CHURCH: Could well be. Could well be.

But while they're complaining, Moses is already praising.

HARLOW: Brian Houston founded in Hillsong 30 years ago in Australia with his wife, Bobbie.

Are you concerned that people are coming for them more than for the message?

HOUSTON: Not really. I've seen the same response all over the world. People lining up for church in London, Cape Town, Stockholm, we've seen it, even Paris, you know.

Carl, obviously, you know, he's magnetic, an attractive guy. I mean his tattoos were a problem, but (inaudible).

HARLOW: You are like the tattoos?

HOUSTON: They're OK. They're OK.

C. LENTZ: They're stickers. Great, thanks Bobbie (ph) for bringing that up.

I'm going to walk down this (inaudible).

Bucket list.

HARLOW: He seems to revel in the spotlight.

But Lentz would prefer you focus on his preaching rather than his wardrobe. He says he's been blocked from visiting inmates because prison staff thought he look more like a criminal than a cleric.

LENTZ: It's so funny when people make comments about the way that we look, almost like it's -- they don't mean to be judgmental but it's like I always say, "What should we look like?"

You're implying that there's an outfit I could ware that would bring peace to you. The whole point of our faith is to come exactly as you are.

Jesus loves you. He died and rose again so you could have light.

HARLOW: You've got to admit that the way you dress, the tattoos, the way you look gets people talking, and is that a bad thing?

C. LENTZ: No, of course that's not a bad thing.

HOUSTON: It's important. I mean no wonder why they're call it a hipster church.

C. LENTZ: Yeah, I'm not a hipster. You don't even know. Hipsters are --

HOUSTON: Do you own a mirror?

C. LENTZ: Yeah. First of all, let me explain you what a -- a hipster is someone who lives in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, who has a much better beard and --

HARLOW: Where do you live?

LENTZ: Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

HARLOW: While Hillsong draws crowd, it also draws skeptics

BRETT MCCRACKEN, AUTHOR OF HIPSTER CHRISTIANITY: Anytime a church can, you know, get people on the door, it's a good

But I think the problem and the questions I have is if we're getting them in under the guise of like cool experience or a cool, club-type experience, is that going to sustain them?

HARLOW: Brett McCracken is the author of "Hipster Christianity -- When Church and Cool Collide."

MCCRACKEN: Whenever a pastor or a celebrity pastor becomes the draw, it's a destruction from Jesus, and that should be the draw.

C. LENTZ: You guys know your Bible still works midweek?

MCCRACKEN: I don't know that the accouterments and the big lights and sound and music and style of the church is going to transform a young persons life in the long run.

HARLOW: Some might say this is Christianity light?

C. LENTZ: Yeah.

HARLOW: Is that fair?

C. LENTZ N: I don't even know what they meaning by that. They try to say everything from shallow teaching to emotional music. I don't buy any of it.

Even when your bank accounts says zero, we have Jesus. We're going to be all right. No fear.

I've heard the other critical bents of like, well if have a lot of people coming, you must be doing something wrong, and -- which is the weirdest concept in history.

But wherever Jesus went there were absolute throngs of people trying to get to him.

HARLOW: And throngs of people try just to get into Hillsong. C. LENTZ: Our goal is not to turn some cultish thinking into New York City like, can you come to our church, we're going to change you. That's an arrogant premise.

HARLOW: Have people said that to you, that this is cultish?

C. LENTZ: For sure.

L. LENTZ: Yes?

HARLOW: Yeah?

C. LENTZ: Even though it's most preposterous allegation in history.

HARLOW: Can you see where that might be coming from?

C. LENTZ: Only because people are uneducated on what is a cult is.

A cult is when I tell you what to think, and if you think any different, you're gone. That's a cult.

We preach the opposite. Actually, you should go home and question what I preach. You should look it up in your own Bible.

HARLOW: But getting American youth to read a Bible is more and more difficult.

A 2012 Pew study found one-third of American adult under 30 have no religious affiliation, a big jump from past generations.

C. LENTZ: Sometimes they're like, "Your church is filled with young people."

I say, "No, it's not. We just actually have some."

HARLOW: Are criticizing the traditional, typical what we picture this church?

C. LENTZ: I'm not criticizing. I'm just calling it what it is.

L. LENTZ: Christianity should be about unbridled contagious joy.

But religion has hijacked the fundamental ingredient of our faith.

(END VIDEOTAPPE)

BALDWIN: Stay with me, because there's more here.

Poppy takes a look at how this Christian rock church is attracting celebrities and millennials, alike, and making big bucks in the process.

So is this alternative style the future of religion? Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: And we're back with this church for the hipster/millennial crowd with music and dancing, kind of a concert feel.

Yes, there is a church evolving with the times to attract 20- or 30- something-year-olds.

CNN's Poppy Harlow continues her look at this New York church that's as successful as it is unconventional.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Hillsong Church is drawing in the crowd and making big money. One reason, their Christian rock band, Hillsong United, with 40 million album sold according to church founder Brian Houston.

Some news reports have pegged the church's worth at $50 million to $100 million. Are those number right?

HOUSTON: They would be on the whole pack, tiny when compared with the Catholic church of course.

C. LENTZ: You can make out to check the Hillsong Church.

HARLOW: Tithing is encourage, credit cards accepted.

Some people might look at it and say, "Well, they live in a very cool neighborhood, nice place on the river, you know, that's not what I equate church with."

C. LENTZ: If you go down that road you simply cannot poor enough for some people. Well, you can drive that car but not that car.

But we're never going cater to that mindset of people try to tell us how to live.

HARLOW: As Pastor Carl Lentz's star rises, a host of celebrities have gathered around him.

Do you care about having celebrities in your congregation?

C. LENTZ: The goal of our church is from the nameless to the famous. Our church should have celebrities, we believe, because we're trying to reach everybody. That's one of our goals.

HARLOW: There's Justin Bieber, who tweeted, "I broke down today after one of Lentz's sermon."

And Lentz baptized NBA megastar Kevin Durant.

We wanted to know where Lentz falls on social issues and politics.

C. LENTZ: My thing is that Jesus transcends politics, so whether I'm right wing, left wing, Democrat, Republican --

HARLOW: You going to tell us?

C. LENTZ: No, it wouldn't be any fun.

Some Christians say, you can't be even a Democrat and even follow Jesus. That really bugs me.

HARLOW: Some of his positions are clearer than others. Don't get drunk, no sex before marriage.

Are gay men and women welcome in the church?

C. LENTZ: Absolutely. We have a lot gay men and women in our church, and I pray we always do.

L. LENTZ: It's not our place to tell anyone how they should live, it's -- that's their journey.

HARLOW: Every article I've read about you guys says he declined to discuss gay marriage.

LENTZ: Yeah, it's a misquote, because I do discuss it, just not the way people want me too.

When it comes to homosexuality, I refuse to let another human being or immediate moment dictate how we approach it.

Jesus was in the thick of an era where homosexuality, just like it is today, was widely prevalent, and I'm still waiting for someone to show me the quote were Jesus addressed it on the record in front of people.

You won't find it because he never did.

HARLOW: But people are finding Hillsong.

Some 3,000 just turned up for one of the church's first event in Los Angeles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillsong L.A. is on its way.

HOUSTON: You know, the funny thing about Hillsong, whether it's the music or our churches, is that we seem to do well where other people struggle.

HARLOW: So will we not see you in the Bible Belt?

HOUSTON: I really don't feel that's where we're called to be.

HARLOW: Lentz says he doesn't dream of building a mega church or becoming a televangelist.

C. LENTZ: Success is not having a big church, a big portfolio, a lot of money, nice cars.

Prosperity for us is simple knowing Jesus and having the right to repent from the sinful life and cling to that cross everyday.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you guys for waiting. We didn't expect to be a capacity already, of course.

HARLOW: But he is redefining church for some. C. LENTZ: -- you need to hear this. Whether you like it or not, God is your shepherd. Whether you like it or not, he has never failed anybody and he's not going to start with you.

Whether you like it or not, you need to hear it. He is going to lead you into something better.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Poppy Harlow with that fascinating report, Poppy, thank you so much.

You want more information about Hillsong? Make sure you go to our Belief Blog for a bigger part of the story at CNN.com/Belief.

And, again, if you ever miss anything on this show, go to the Brooke Blog, CNN.com/Brooke. Easy enough to remember, right?

Thank you for being with me. Let's go to Washington next because "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.