Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Obama Says No Boots on Ground, Kerry Says ISIS Must Be Stopped; Who is ISIS, What's Its Goal; U.S., Other Countries Overwhelmed by Immigration Crisis; Iraq War Veteran Talks Crisis in Iraq

Aired June 13, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama made a decision on Iraq. That decision is do nothing, at least for now. He's holding off on any actions to help Iraqis fight extremist forces. Obama says he'll be considering his options over the next few days, but one thing is certain, no boots on the ground.

Now we have just learned Hillary Clinton agrees with President Obama that this may not be a role for the U.S.

Secretary of State John Kerry, though, says ISIS is a threat to the world and they must be stopped.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: ISIL is a fundamental, basic terrorist structure that seeks to do everything outside of any rule of law or structure in order to dominate any territory or location where it is. It's frankly the enemy of civility, the enemy of rule of law, the enemy of pluralism, the enemy of decency. And we need to make crystal clear, as we have, that the United States uses it as a threat to our interest as well as to the interests of our friends and allies in the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me to discuss, Michael Weiss, contributor, "Politico" magazine.

I was reading your article. And in that article, you wrote, you called the situation in Iraq an "assisted suicide." Explain, if you would, what you mean by that. And do you think the do-nothing approach is the best one for the U.S.?

MICHAEL WEISS, CONTRIBUTOR, POLITICO: Well, actually, I think it's important to distinguish it's not just about Iraq anymore and it has not been for I would say three years or more. The border between Syria and Iraq has all but vanished. In fact, there's photographs of ISIS dismantling the berms that constituted the demarcation between these two countries. This is a conflict that spans about 750 miles. So when I say it's an "assisted suicide," I mean that U.S. policy, of course, going into Iraq in 2003 and the way the war was conducted and the way we existed in 2011, is partly to blame. But also U.S. policy with respect to Syria is very much a catalyst for what we're seeing now. ISIS, it's military headquarters, the place where it's established its training camps, where it gained real strength, has been in Syria, particularly the eastern part of Syria, what is now connected to northern and western Iraq.

So if you look at what's happened over the last three years, the moderate Syrian opposition receiving little to no support from the United States. These guys are the ones that have now the most experience fighting ISIS in its most modern incarnation. We were sort of out to lunch. We were not doing anything to address a humanitarian and geo-political crisis in Syria. And now, this is what is known as regional spillover. And, boy, has it happened. ISIS is in control of most of northern and central Iraq, with the exception of Iraqi Kurdistan. And I've talked to a number of people, both in the U.S. military and a former general in the Iraqi Army, who very bravely fought along side U.S. troops in a town near the Syria and Iraqi border. He is now living in the United States. And he said to me -- and this is a man that risked his life and family's lives trying to bring cohesion back to this country. He said, I see Iraq splitting into three countries now. It's going to be Kurdistan. It's going to be Sunnistan. It's going to Shiastan. And everything I have seen in the last 72 hours indicates that he is correct.

BROWN: And when you look at Syria -- you brought it up -- some are saying "we told you so," two years ago when the violence was erupting, if we didn't do anything and left it unchecked, that this would happen, and here we are.

But on the flip side of that, some would argue this is an example of, no matter what you do -- I mean, the U.S. poured more than a trillion dollars into the war in Iraq, waged an eight-year war there, billions of dollars training the troops there in Iraq, and look where we are. Do you think the flip side that it's a snake pit? That no matter what you do, this is what you're going to end up with.

WEISS: It's definitely a valid argument. However, I was talking to a source in the military that told me, if you look at the metrics, in 2008 -- so this is the tail end of the U.S. war -- the number of security incidents throughout the entire country of Iraq were down to about 10 per day. Now that's down from hundreds per day during the height of the civil war around the 2006 period. So actually, the U.S. was making progress. And, you know, despite address coming from the former chairman of the joints chief of staff, the former U.S. secretary of defense, that we have to keep some in this country, we have to keep it not only to stall or deter the jihadi forces, but as Dexter Philcons (ph), one of the best journalists to cover the Iraq war, ably stated in "The New Yorker" this week, the real key for keeping a U.S. presence was actually tamp down the thuggish sectarianism of Nouri al Maliki's govnerment I mean, this is a man -- I can't begin to describe to your viewers how he is seen, not only among Sunnis but also by Kurds. I remember meeting with representatives of the Kurdistan regional government in London a few years ago who were desperate to get the United States not to sell Mr. Maliki fighter jets. Their argument is he is the next Saddam Hussein. If you do this, he will use it against us. Now look at what's happened. The Kurds have taken the city of Kirkuk. This is what they call their Jerusalem. They're not giving back the city. They're not going to relinquish it to control of either a new constituted Baghdadi government or to ISIS. This will be the capitol of what will emerge eventually, and probably sooner than later, as an independent state of Kurdistan.

(CROSSTALK)

WEISS: So, yeah, I think this country is breaking apart.

BROWN: Michael Weiss, thank you for offering your perspective. We appreciate it.

WEISS: Sure.

BROWN: Just ahead on NEWSROOM, does this brutal terror group pose a direct threat to U.S. similar to al Qaeda? We'll ask someone that knows these terrorists better than anyone.

Plus, he is being called the new bin Laden. No one knows where he is, but the head of this militant group has managed to build a terrifying network, 12,000 fighters deep in four years. Hear about his rise, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A fast-rising terror group is wreaking havoc, rolling through northern Iraq and taking the city of Mosul with astonishing speed. The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, ISIS, controls a number of cities in both countries and is heading towards Baghdad as we speak. But just who is ISIS and what is its ultimate goal?

Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No one seems to know exactly where he is, but in just four years, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi has created a strike force of jihadi militants --

(GUNFIRE)

FEYERICK: -- fixated on creating a far-reaching Islamic state, also known as a caliphate, governed by strict Sharia Law.

RICHARD BARRETT, FORMER BRITISH INTELLIGENCE AGENT: This area they want to control is not only Iraq and Syria, but also Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and Kuwait.

FEYERICK: Richard Barrett is formerly with British intelligence.

(on camera): What changes are being seen in terms of Sharia Law when it comes to children, women, the courts?

BARRETT: They're looking back to the Koran, of course, and all of this to try and understand what is the fundamental law of Islam. Well, that may have been applicable at the time of the profit. Women were very much oppressed.

FEYERICK (voice-over): Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, who is in his early 40s, claims to be a direct descendent of the profit, Mohammed.

BARRETT: That resonates hugely in the Muslim world.

FEYERICK: Born near Baghdad, al-Baghdadi attended university there and got a PhD in Islamic studies before fighting with ruthless terrorist, Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, known to behead his victims. Al- Baghdadi was captured and spent four years in a U.S. prison camp in Iraq where he met and recruited fellow insurgents. He was released in 2009. It is believed he could have as many as 12,000 core fighters with several thousand from Western countries.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're coming from, U.S., Canada, France, Britain, Germany.

FEYERICK: The threat to those countries of great concern to security experts. The terrorists that recently opened fire on Belgium's museum is thought to have spent time fighting under al-Baghdadi.

BARRETT: It's a significant period in which to get radicalized but quite proficient in terrorism.

FEYERICK: Making al-Baghdadi even more lethal, his group, the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, has not only challenged al Qaeda's authority but could even replace its current leader.

(on camera): Is it fair to say bin Laden's number-two person, who is now number one in al Qaeda, is irrelevant?

BARRETT: I think he's being completely sidelined on this. He won't see it that way. He'll still see this as a battle for the heart and minds of the extremists.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Thank you to Deborah Feyerick.

Now I want to bring in Nic Robertson in Amman, Jordan.

Nic, earlier today, we heard Secretary of State John Kerry call ISIS a threat to the entire world. I have been speaking to folks in the counter-terrorism community and a lot of people are surprised by how quickly this group is growing and how quickly it's able to acquire territory. This doesn't seem like a rag-tag group of extremists.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're not just a rag-tag group of extremists. They were essentially the most professional and strategic-thinking group of rebels in Syria. Why were they so? Because they had experience fighting U.S. forces and the Iraqi government in Iraq before they moved to Syria. Their strategic vision allowed them to do things like take control of certain areas, exploit the chaos in the country to open up training camps. They have attacked foreign fighters from around the world, thousands from Europe, some from the United States as well. So they do pose a threat to the rest of the world because, as we have seen, whether it's in Yemen or whether it's in Pakistan and Afghanistan, they will export the terror. There are recruiters that will then export those fighters back to do terror attacks in the United States. That does appear to be the case, at least according to a French prosecutor, that the gunning attack and killing of people in a Jewish museum in Belgium three weeks ago was the result of a man who had come and joined the fighters in Syria and gone back again.

But there's a bigger perspective to what's going on here. The rebels, these fighters, ISIS, couldn't have moved so fast in Iraq if they hadn't of had support of the Sunni tribes. They had that. I talked to tribal leaders today, talked to Saudi intelligence sources that say that ISIS did have the support of the Sunni tribes. They're fighting on different agendas. ISIS wants an Islamic caliphate. The tribal leaders want a government of national unity in Iraq. They don't like Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki, with his Shia-dominated government. They feel there's potential for a real escalation in sectarian conflict. But at the moment, they're bedfellows with ISIS. And ISIS, as we are seeing, they have a strategic vision and exploit it to their own advantage. Whatever these Sunni tribal leaders and fighters are doing in Iraq at the moment, ISIS exploits it. And they will turn it around ultimately and take it back to the citizens of Europe and potentially the United States.

BROWN: Nic Robertson, thank you for that report.

And back to our special coverage in just a moment.

But first, a recent spike in unaccompanied children crossing the border from Mexico into the U.S. sparking a lot of controversy and debate on the topic of immigration. We're going to look at both sides of the story. We have reporters standing by in Texas and Honduras, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: U.S. Immigration officials are struggling to handle the onslaught of people fleeing Central American countries to the United States. Most of the immigrants that make it across the border are minors. And many holding facilities are overwhelmed by them. But the U.S. is not the only country grappling with this crisis.

CNN correspondents, Polo Sandoval and Rosa Flores, are covering the story for us in Texas and Honduras.

So let's start with you, Polo.

You are near Mission, Texas by the banks of the Rio Grand. What's the strategy for volunteers there now? And we're hearing reports of an outbreak of chickenpox. What are you learning about that?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Pam, we do know Immigration officials right now are really trying to work with that. Specifically, they're trying to make sure that they can take the spread of that. We do know that, according to local officials here on the ground, that there were several people that were actually found to have chicken pox, also scabies. So obviously, officials here on the ground and also law enforcement that patrol on a daily basis are aware of that.

Meanwhile, there are volunteers that continue working out there to try to find a place for these people after they're released by Border Patrol. They're opening several other locations. There was one large one there, a bus station. It was a center where people could go to and get water and supplies as they continue their trek north after being released by Border Patrol because of the overcrowding. That need there so great, two more centers are now open. And, Pam, anywhere you go, you see it. I can tell you just a few moments ago -- and it happened before, too, it happened earlier. There was a gentleman from Guatemala that claimed to have crossed the river and he's waiting for Border Patrol to pick him up. No agents are in sight. Many are at the local headquarters having to process thousands of people crossing that river on a daily basis -- Pam?

BROWN: You're hearing so many stories, talking to so many people there.

Polo, thank you for that report.

Now to Rosa Flores.

Rosa, you're on the other end of this plight. Honduran children are flooding processing centers there. You're expecting a bus full of children to arrive any moment now. Is that right?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You're absolutely right. Let me tell you something. There is what appears to be a pipeline of children from Central America going toward the United States. Now some of those children never even make it to the United States. They only make it as far as Mexico. And those are the children that we are expecting today. They're going to be coming in buses. The buses are going to line-up here along the streets and then they're going to be moving in to this center that you see behind me. Now here, they are processed, and then they are also sometimes housed here. The dormitory that you see behind me has bunk beds for some of these children because, let's remember, some of these kids are unaccompanied. They don't have parents with them in their trek toward the United States. So they have to wait here to be claimed -- Pam?

BROWN: And are you hearing any explanation as to why there's this surge, why the children are going to the U.S. in the first place?

FLORES: That is the key question. And one of the things we've learned here on the ground -- and I'll move so I can show you the streets. The answer is street violence for a lot of the kids and adults that live in Honduras and other Central American countries. This particular city that we're in has been dubbed the murder capitol of the world for three years in a row. The story that we keep on hearing is that, "Dad has been killed, son is being targeted." So son treks to the United States to try to find family members, which is key number two. Some of these kids want to reunite with their family members in the United States. And then the third thing is economics. Just think about this. 65 percent of the people in this country are in poverty, Pam. So a lot of them feel they don't have anything to lose.

BROWN: Rosa Flores, Polo Sandoval, thank you so much for giving us that story and bringing it to us there from Texas and Honduras. We appreciate it.

And just ahead, right here on NEWSROOM, back to our special coverage of the fast-moving situation in Iraq. Which military option will President Obama choose as militants get closer to Baghdad?

Plus, it has only taken months for this terror group to wipe out any gains the U.S. made over years. So how does a veteran who fought in Iraq feel about this disturbing development? I'll speak with one, live, up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The veterans who survived the war in Iraq have perhaps the most legitimate take on this rapidly deteriorating situation there now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(GUNFIRE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: For the thousands of U.S. combat veterans, many that lost limbs or friends in the nearly decade-long war, these imagines must be so discouraging and even infuriating. And to think of their service and sacrifice dissolving into civil war and chaos must hurt.

Marine Staff Sergeant Mitch Beeler did three tours in Iraq. He joins us now from Iowa.

Thank you so much for being here with us and sharing your perspective.

First off, when you see these imagines and learn what's going on there. What goes through your mind? You see these militants marching on Baghdad and the Iraqi Army throwing down their weapons and running, what do you think? What do you feel?

SGT. MITCH BEELER, U.S MARINE CORPS VETERAN: You know, I would say when you look at those imagines you feel a lot of negative emotion. You think about the time that you spent there. You think about those highways that you spent hours upon, clearing for roadside bombs and in the cities and trying to make a safe environment for the citizens of Iraq to live in. So when you see the forces that we spent so much time and money training basically just lay down their arms and fall down to 1,000 militants, it's very disheartening.

BROWN: And, Mitch, I know you lost friends in the war. We have a mutual friend that we lost, Chase Conley. When you think about all the sacrifice, their sacrifice, your sacrifice, three tours in Iraq, was it worth it?

BEELER: I mean, that's a tough question, right? So we have been talking about this a lot today, I think, at home and at work, and I would say the general consensus is yes. When you think back to what we initially went there for and what we actually achieved, those were huge strides. You know, liberating children and women and building schools and providing safer environments for people to live in. On the flip side, do I struggle with the fact that was it worth it? Yeah. Do I have to look at my friends' families and see an empty seat? You know, that's very tough. I think the main course -- the main course of it is to stay the way. And it's worth it. We can't let 1,000 radical al Qaeda affiliates ruin what we did. And whether that's, we step back in and try to curve the situation again, that's up for the powers above us to decide.

BROWN: And that brings me to my next question. What, if anything, would you like to see the U.S. do in Iraq?

BEELER: Yeah, that's equally as tough of a question. We have one war going on in Afghanistan right now that we're looking at doing a drawdown on. My personal opinion, I would say, you know, we can't tolerate this.

We can't allow for a breeding ground of terrorism, because, you know, will it spread to Syria? Will it spread to neighboring countries to allow additional training, and then you have people that can cross borders and eventually come here on our homeland?

So, as we have always said from the beginning, it's better to fight abroad than it is to here.

BROWN: Yes.

Staff Sergeant Mitch Beeler, thank you for coming on and thank you for all the sacrifices you made serving three tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan as well, and to all the other service members out there, thank you.

That does it for our special coverage. It continues right now with Don Lemon.

DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Appreciate that, Pamela Brown.