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Iraq Unraveling; At Least 60,000 Unaccompanied Children Expected to Illegally Cross the U.S. Border This Year; Interview with John Sununu

Aired June 14, 2014 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, you are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don lemon is off today. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Michael Holmes at CNN World headquarters in Atlanta.

CABRERA: Iraq is unraveling this weekend across province after province. A group of radical Islamic extremists with plenty of weapons, plenty of money, moving towards Baghdad, leaving death and violence behind it.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

HOLMES: This is Tikrit, Iraq. Saddam Hussein's hometown but fighting like this is raging now in a lot of cities and towns between Baghdad and the Syrian border. The extremist group, ISIS, faced on a mission they say to take over the entire Middle East starting with Iraq and Syria. So far in Iraq, not much is stopping them.

CABRERA: Now, the United States watching carefully but, so far no involvement. This aircraft carrier group is moving into the Persian Gulf with orders to get close to Iraq and just wait. President Obama says he is considering options but on the military conflict inside Iraq, he promises the U.S. won't be dragged back in.

And Nic Robertson, CNN senior international correspondent is there in Baghdad.

Nic, the Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki says this is the beginning of the end for this extremist group, ISIS. Some pretty confident words when the extremists seem to be right on his doorstep there. They are on the outskirts of Baghdad.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Sure. And I think that is why he is using language like that. He really wants to get people to come out and support the fight against ISIS. He is one of those leaders right now who is telling young Iraqis that it's time to get their houses and pick up a weapon and come join the fight.

And North of Baghdad, he said that in a town of Samarra. He has kind of made drawn that as a line in the sand. It is about an hour or hour and a half drive north of Baghdad. There was a bombing of a very important Shi'a shrine there in 2006. That led to a massive wave of sectarian bloodletting. So he is willing -- it sounds like confident words but he is trying to get people to pick up weapons and to come out and join the fight against ISIS. He needs to back up the army because he just seen some of the army, or some of it at least, crumble in front of this onslaught -- Ana.

HOLMES: And Nic, you know, an extraordinary scene. I mean, you do really have the U.S. being asked militarily support and Iranian-backed government. And even the notion that the Iranian troop could possibly go to Iraq and join the Iraqis forces there. What are you hearing about that in Baghdad, about the possibility of that?

ROBERTSON: Sure, there is conflicting accounts. I mean, there is an account that one of the most sort of senior Iranian military adviser has been here over the weekend as well. And there are accounts of hundreds of forces here come from Iran to bolster the fight. That is denied by Iraqi officials.

But also as ironic as it might seem, United States fighting on the same side as Iran to bomb these Sunni militia men who not just ISIS but the tribesmen who may be part of a target of these air strikes. Some of these same Sunni tribesmen were fighting with the United States marine corps just a few years ago to get al Qaeda out of Iraq. How ironic would that be if they were now the targets for fighting side-by-side with -- it's just so complicated and that is why the choices are so difficult for President Obama and it's very difficult to make a real difference with air strikes on a battlefield without tipping the balance one way or another. You're just trying to -- when you're trying to engender political compromise which is told Nouri al- Maliki needs to do, Michael.

HOLMES: That's the crazy thing, the risk of bombing, the very people you're trying to bring on side when you're aiming for the terrorists.

Nic Robertson, thanks, as always, for your expertise out there in the region right there in Baghdad.

Now, after the high cost of thousands of U.S. lives, trillions of U.S. dollars spent on the war in Iraq, many people are asking what, if anything, will the U.S. do to help fend off the insurgents and what can they do?

We turn to Athena Jones in Washington for the answer.

ATHENA JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Michael.

The aircraft carrier, the USS George H. W. Bush is right now on its way to the Persian Gulf. It is expected to arrive by later this evening. It is being accompanied by two other ships, a guided missile cruiser the USS Philippine Sea and a guided missile destroyer, the USS Truxtun.

Now, the order by defense secretary Chuck Hagel is meant to provide the president would quote "additional flexibility should military options be required to protect American lives, citizens and interests in Iraq." Now, that a is according to Pentagon press secretary admiral John Kirby. As you know, the president has been spending father's day weekend in

California. But he has asked his national security team to come up with a range of options to try to help Iraq fight back, push back this insurgent force. Those options do not include air strike and this ship, the Bush, can be used to air strikes. It can also use its helicopters to help evacuate Americans if needed and to conduct reconnaissance and surveillance missions.

But the president is under pressure to figure out what to do quickly. Another member of Congress, Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell spoke out today urging the president to act swiftly to help the Iraqis less the games that the U.S. and allied forces made in Iraq be lost.

Now, the president said he'll be reviewing the options his advisers present to him in the coming days -- Michael.

HOLMES: Athena Jones outside the White House, our thanks to you.

And later this hour we are going to be talking to Republican John Sununu about U.S. options, a topic he knows a bit about since he served as White House chief of staff during the first Gulf War.

CABRERA: And there is a lot happening around the world today.

In fact today marked one of the bloodiest days yet in the Ukraine Crisis. A Ukrainian military transport was shot down early this morning as it was about to land in a city near the Russian border. All 49 people aboard died. The Ukraine leaders blamed pro Russian separatists.

After this incident, leaders in the U.S. as well as Europe called on Russia to do more, to rein in the separatists and to find a diplomatic solution to the conflict there in eastern Ukraine. This take-down of the plane sparked a protest outside the Russian embassy in Kiev.

Now, the demonstrator shot at insult. They threw rocks, they had eggs, they demanded Russia leave Ukraine. Tires were piled up there at the entrance you can see. Embassy signs were de-faced graffiti. Several diplomatic automobiles were also flipped over.

President Obama campaigned as the leader who ended the war in Iraq. That was once part of his legacy. But is it a liability now, one that could even perhaps cause more problems for him as he enters the last couple of years of his presidency?

HOLMES: Also still to come on the program, immigrant children crossing the border alone, no parents, and a future that is uncertain at best. What is being done on the border? We are going to have a live report from Texas. Do stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right, let's talk more about the situation in Iraq and the U.S. responsible, potential response.

CNN commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill are here. Good to see you both.

President Obama says no U.S. combat troops returning to Iraq making it clear Iraq's government must do the heavy lifting in order to hold the country together. Not working out so well so far. But, you know, can -- should the U.S. avoid getting involved in this conflict or does the pottery bond rule apply?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I think ultimately this is a great strategy and it will force Iraq to take hold of the reins itself. By saying -- first of all, the president says we are not going to intervene particularly unless Nouri al-Maliki makes a different set of political decision. The Sunni minority in Iraq has been oppressed for a very long time. And that is part of why you see this insurgency. So he is forcing a more democratic government in Iraq.

Also, we are not the only game in town here. Iran has already commit to sending 2,000 troops to Iraq. Other countries particularly Sunni Muslim countries can engage this as well. We don't have to be at war. Remember, the president said we are getting out of Iraq and what is exactly what he is planning to do, a draw down. So I don't want to see drone strikes. I don't want to see boots on the ground. I want to see Iraq take the reins itself.

HOLMES: Yes. And (INAUDIBLE), with the lady who do that, it is not working out so well so far with Nouri al-Maliki.

Ben, on that very point, Obama often takes credit for ending the war in Iraq, but will it become a political liability for him going forward? He and no one really has been able to control Nouri al Maliki. He was told to be inclusive. He said he would be. He just thumbed his nose.

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, and that is one of the problems here. But you also have to look at the threat and this is a group that has been disavowed by al Qaeda. That's how bad they are.

This is a group that so bad that Iran actually wants to get rid of them. That tells you, again, how bad evil corrupt they are and how extreme as a world view in jihadists they are. And I do think that when you hear Maliki and others are begging, in their words, begging the U.S. for air support, I'm not sure if, right now, is the time for us to say, hey, we are going to a couple of days on this one.

These guys, we should all agree, we should do something with. I don't think we should send troops back on the ground. I think where there is a consensus on that. But to just say hey, you got to stand up and we are going to sit here and watch what happens over the next, you know, couple of days or weeks, what happens if they do come into Baghdad? What happens if they come into these areas where there is lots of civilians? What happens if they do control oil fields? They will be the wealthiest terrors in the world that they are able to take over these areas financial. And that is something that an al Qaeda never had and these guys could have oil in the ground coming out their ears. HOLMES: Exactly. The stock reality, of course, is with these air

strikes you don't know who you're shooting at all the time. These guys are getting support from tribal Sunnis who are disaffected by Nouri al-Maliki. You start shooting them as well as ISIS, you're going to have a real sectarian issue on your hand.

I got to move on to Marc, many politicians are being saying, I've been hearing this, you know, for weeks now, that Obama should have left more troops or should have left troops there on the ground. But the reality is he couldn't under the agreement that was brokered by Bush and the Iraqi insistence that U.S. forces be subject to Iraqi law. That was never going to happen. So what is the U.S. do? No residual force there? No real influence?

HILL: There is still an influence, as considerable influence that for no other reason, but because we a threat of air strikes, we have a threat boots on the ground, we have the threat of funding rebel -- not funding, arming rebel groups, particularly Shiite insurgent groups. So we have all sorts of options here.

But, you're right. The U.S. has some of its political hands tied because of the Bush agreement and the Obama agreement subsequently. But I think that's not the worse situation imaginable because again, we don't want to be there. We want to withdraw. We want Iraq to reins itself. And I am of the belief that if we stand firm on this and don't bail them out with air strikes which Ben is suggesting which only emboldens Nouri al-Maliki to do the very same thing he is doing. If we don't do that and we resist this, they will find help on their own. They will find resistance on their own. And Nouri al-Maliki will be forced to create a more democratic Iraq which will stop some of the insurgency. Remember, as awful as ISIS is, as awful as these terrorist groups are part of what they are responding to is oppression of Sunni minority. We can stop that resist, that by change force on Maliki to change his practice.

HOLMES: Yes. And if -- and if nothing is done, I mean, he might just call on Iran and wouldn't that be something?

Ben, Hillary Clinton -- well, yes, but in a big way. That is major risk regionally speaking because then you're going to annoy the gulf state and then where do we go from there? Talking about Saudi Arabia which is already funding the rebels in Syria. They are not going to stand by if Iran gets too heavily involved.

But Ben, I want to ask you this. Hillary Clinton called her 2002 vote to give then President Bush the power to invade Iraq and saying it was a mistake. Now she is saying that air strikes shouldn't go on at this time, quote, "at this time," unquote. Is Iraq going to shadow her political moves from now on? Because everyone is watching Hillary Clinton.

FERGUSON: Well, of course, it is if this doesn't turn out well. I mean, if you see ISIS take over Iraq and take over Baghdad and able to be the wealthiest terrorist group in the world. Remember, the guy is in charge of this group. We actually had in our custody and Barack Obama turned him over to the Iraqis in 2009. And the last thing he said to the American soldiers were, "I'll see you in New York." And that was the last thing he said.

This guy is going to make it very clear from the very beginning that he wants to not only just have his way in the Middle East but he does want to come after America. And so, can you allow him to take over a country that would give him hundreds and hundreds and millions of dollars of operating capital which, again, al Qaeda never had.

And so, for Hillary to say, I don't think air strikes would be good at this time, she is playing the politics of it. But if it does put America's interest in harm's way that is where this is going to be a big black eye for Hillary Clinton and for Barack Obama because we had this guy and should have never let him go in the first place.

HILL: I think that is a bit unfair, Ben.

HOLMES: OK, ten seconds. Go!

HILL: That's a bit unfair. Hillary Clinton didn't say the option was off the table. She said at that moment a strike wasn't appropriate and it wasn't.

HOLMES: And it is a very nuance thing. You have to be careful with these sorts of things.

Stand by boys. It is god to chat. Stick around.

Next up, anyone solve the crisis that has been building for months and years? Talking about illegal immigrants crossing illegally into the United States. But now it is children left to fend for themselves, no parents. Overwhelming the limited resources dedicated to helping them once they get to the U.S. We are going to look at this when with we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: The numbers are just staggering. At least 60,000 unaccompanied children are expected to illegally cross the U.S. border this year. And we are hearing the children as young as 4-years-old.

Now, border control is not equipped to properly care for all these children. The majority coming from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. In fact, take a look at these leaked photographs that show a border patrol holding facility in Nogales, Arizona. You can see here the crammed cells. Not enough food, not enough beds, toilets or showers.

Let me bring in CNN's Polo Sandoval in Mission, Texas. He has been covering the story all week long.

Polo, what are the border agents doing now to respond for this demand for more manpower to help process all of these people?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That's one of the questions that we actually asked the Congressman Henry Cuellar. He is a Democrat who represents a portion of this south Texas region here in McAllen, Texas. He said specifically doctors, FEMA, also U.S. coast guard being brought in to help process a lot of these people specifically at this border patrol station in McAllen. We are told about a thousand people being housed there right now, families and also unaccompanied children.

Now, since they are doing that that essentially releasing more border patrol agents to try to get back on the beat, trying to protect this border here. Really, this is one of the most dangerous portions of this journey for countless families. And again, those unaccompanied children that you mentioned at the top and some of the photographs that we just showed a few moments ago, they are, that's a big top priority for lawmakers right now as they try to secure the border. But also, it's a juggling act. They also try to make sure they can process as many people they can and an area always seen this flow of illegal immigration for in this case. So, it is obviously is a little busier.

We also asked some specific questions about these reports of reported overcrowding at some of these detention centers. Listen to his response there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D), TEXAS: I got to speak to a lot of families.

SANDOVAL: Did any of them complain about the situations or the conditions?

CUELLAR: No, they did not complain. They were just happy that they were here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: And finally we also asked him really why he thinks the surge is happening right now and he confirms what we have been hearing up and down the border the last few days and that these families are leaving south America, also Central America there trying to track down a better opportunity and flee the violence -- Ana.

CABRERA: All right. Polo Sandoval, thank you. It is a complex situation, heart breaking situation.

Let's talk more about it. It is a crisis unfolding there along the border. An influx of refuge children are coming into our country.

And joining us, again, to talk about this. These are our CNN commentators Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Good to see both of you.

FERGUSON: Good to see you.

HILL: Good to be here.

CABRERA: OK. So we have been reporting on the surge in immigrant children showing up at the U.S./Mexico border, many of them alone, no parents, no adults in many cases. In fact, just this year, 60,000 to 80,000 unaccompanied children are projected this year to cross the U.S. border.

So Marc, I want to start with you. Arizona's Republican governor, Jan Brewer, others critics have said it's the Obama administration fault that is caused this crisis by failing to enforce the country's immigration laws. Is she right?

HILL: No, that is absurd. I mean, there is a piece of that that is true. And that is that if we had different immigration policy we might have a different result and that we do need to do something on immigration.

President Obama had not enforced barely of immigration policy, no more than any other presidents have. It's been shameful for all across the board, for all people, President Obama included.

But this current incident is not happening because of President Obama or President Obama's immigration policy. We have seen a spike over the President Obama's administration from 2,000, you know, 8,000 up to 60,000 to 80,000 people -- children rather, in these facilities. And it is not because of immigration policy. It is because of Central American violence.

These kids are fleeing from Honduras there, fleeing from El Salvador, because people are dying there at epic levels. And no matter how bad or how militarized the border would be, it's still better and less perilous (ph) than that Central American violence. That's why the kids are leaving. They are hoping for a pathway to their parents. They are hoping for a pathways for themselves. That is not the case right now, but it has nothing to do with President Obama.

CABRERA: Ben, your thoughts?

FERGUSON: I would strongly, strongly disagree. If you look at the facts on what the Obama administration has said, we have offering illegal immigrants enticing subsidies to come here including running ads in Spanish that told illegal immigrants to go ahead and sign up for free health care at healthcare.gov in Spanish.

So when you are advertising these government benefits, this is organized chaos. These kids are coming across because their parents know we are going to treat them well and that we are not going to hurt them.

So many of these kids are actually looking to get caught. They are being told in an organized way when you come across the border they are not running from the American authorities like you see a lot of the adults do this.

CABRERA: Ben, let me jump in here for a second. I want to ask you about that. Who is telling these families? You kept saying they are being told this. Who?

FERGUSON: Well, obviously, their family members are saying when they come across you look for the Americans, look for the border agents. I've had multiple border agents in my show. I'm in Texas. And they say, it is the weirdest thing they have ever seen. And that -- they are running, they are not hiding. They are not trying to sneak in.

They are OK being caught because they want to be in America and know America said we will take care of you and we are not going deport you and that is a policy issue. When they know that they are not going to really be sent home, they are going to keep coming across these massive numbers and then whatever we do afterwards with all of these conditions and the problems we are seeing in Tucson they say worth the benefit because eventually America will get it together and that is the problem.

CABRERA: You mentioned deportation, Ben. Just a second, Marc. You know, President Obama, since he has been in office under his administration, we have seen more than two million immigrants be deported. That is on track now to far surpass what other previous administrations have done in terms of deporting immigrants. So I just want to clarify that piece in terms of what you're saying in terms of numbers.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Hold on one second. Hold on one second. There is in his ads, the ads that came out. They were in Spanish. They were talking about don't be afraid to sign up for government benefits including snap. They ran those ads as well. And they said you won't have to worry about the authorities. Obama even said that on TV that don't worry about signing up and being deported. I'll make sure that doesn't happen and that's when you saw this flood increase was when the president of the United States of America said it's OK to take the benefits and then we saw all of these numbers skyrocket year over year.

CABRERA: Yes. Let's Marc response.

HILL: Let me respond because Ben has said two things that are just grossly untrue. First is that somehow President Obama has been lax on deportation. He has been the most deporting heavy president we have seen. He has deported far more than President Bush at this point. So it's simply untrue.

And the second thing here is to say that somehow a Spanish language ad caused a spike in children immigrating into this country, again, it is just factually untrue. There has been a spike in Central American violence.

FERGUSON: How can you say it's untrue when the numbers have gone through the roof?

HILL: Yes. But --

FERGUSON: The numbers have gone through the roof. You can't say they have spiked, Marc.

HILL: Let me answer the question and I'll tell you exactly how that is not true, Ben. No one is disputing the straw man that you are presenting which are the numbers haven't spiked. What we are disagreeing on is why the numbers have spiked. And while you are blaming the spike on a Spanish language ad, I'm

blaming it on a gun violence in Central America. And if something made me leave El Salvador, it wouldn't be a Spanish language ad and that is bad as for President Obama, it will be the big guys with guns. And it is the big guys with guns in Central America.

(CROSSTALK)

CABRERA: OK Guys, so we can argue what the cause of the problem is. We can argue about who is fault this is, but bottom line we need solutions, Ben first and then Marc.

Quickly, given the gravity of this situation does this make it more important for Congress not to wait on immigration but work on immigration policy right now -- Ben?

FERGUSON: Well, Congress should be working on this but in the meantime, we already have laws on the books that are not being enforced that deal with immigration issues. So, I would start with enforcing the laws on the books.

Forty percent of all our border agents right now are not working at the border because they are having to deal with these issues types of issues which makes it easier to come across. So we have to do a better job with that and then let Congress do their job afterwards.

CABRERA: All right, Marc?

HILL: I think -- one thing I agree with Ben on is we need some sort immigration reform. We need policy reform. But the policy reform can't just be militarization. It has to be as President Obama suggests that -- In fact, think President Obama went too far of this. But it should be militarization but this shall be just working progress. There should be amnesty, should be bringing families back together. We need to also immigration so that these types of things don't have them because what is happening right now is unimaginably bad. It is just unacceptable and it is deplorable for nation. That is 60,000 children in --

FERGUSON: I agree.

CABRERA: I was going to say that's something everybody can agree on. Thank you, Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill. We appreciate it.

HILL: Pleasure.

FERGUSON: Thanks.

CABRERA: More than 20 years ago, the first President George Bush fought his own war against Iraqi forces and won a huge victory. Ahead, one of the top advisors weighs in on the crisis the current president is facing. Should his military advisers be fired? We will ask what he would do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) HOLMES: I want to talk more about the U.S. response to the resurgent crisis in Iraq. Former New Hampshire Governor John Sununu joining me now served as White House chief of staff for President George H.W. Bush from 89 through 92. That includes, of course, the time of the First Gulf War. Governor, of course, we know U.S. troops off the table for now anyway and few are even calling the U.S. air strikes at the moment, which could be a problem. As a former White House chief of staff, what options would you say that the U.S. has at this point to try to alleviate the tensions in Iraq?

JOHN SUNUNU, FMR. WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF UNDER PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Well, it's silly to talk about options until you clear up the reason you have a problem, so that you can deal with the real problem when you examine options. And we have a problem because this president chose to ignore the completion of the Status of Forces Agreement which would have allowed the 10,000 troops that Bush had negotiated to keep there to stay there. You need to work toward a stabilizing force eventually to provide assistance. But right now, he has created a vacuum that is going to allow, I'm afraid, the Iranians to be an influential part of what is there.

HOLMES: Certainly ...

SUNUNU: We have to have leverage over Maliki. In order to get Maliki to stop being as sectarianly obnoxious as he has been towards the Sunnis.

HOLMES: That could have - but that pressure could have gone on a long time ago. I want to go back to the status of forces agreement. Nouri Al Maliki, that same man, he was the one who wanted if U.S. Forces were to stay, to have them subject to Iraqi law, potentially end up getting charged under Iraqi law.

SUNUNU: Every - every ....

HOLMES: That was never going to fly.

SUNUNU: Every - we tried and negotiate a status of a forces agreement starts with that position. It is hard work to negotiate that agreement and this administration chose to cater to the radical left in his party and the Democratic Party, used Maliki's initial resistance to what should be in that agreement as an excuse to get the troops out.

HOLMES: Well, it wasn't an initial resistance. It was resistance that went on and on. He ran for office on a platform of having ....

SUNUNU: That's - life is hard, my friend! And the president gets the big bucks for doing the right things! When the right thing would have been to ...

HOLMES: If the Iraqi prime minister ...

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: No, what was the president meant to do? SUNUNU: And to keep our troops there with a status of forces

agreement in place!

HOLMES: That wasn't going to fly under Nouri al-Maliki.

SUNUNU: But he chose not to because he found it convenient to cater to the left side of the party that wanted troops out of there any way.

HOLMES: Although, I was there at the time. Nouri al-Maliki basically ran for office saying that there would be no U.S. troops unless they are under Iraqi law. But we are going around in circles. Let me ask you this, because Nouri al-Maliki, he's by all accounts ... ...

SUNUNU: That's a great excuse for the president to do something!

HOLMES: Nouri al Maliki is by all accounts the problem. Now, he as soon as U.S. troops left Iraq in 2011 ...

SUNUNU: And he had five years to deal with it!

HOLMES: And I was on the border ...

SUNUNU: He had almost six years ....

HOLMES: The Kuwaiti/Iraqi border within ...

SUNUNU: To deal with Maliki.

HOLMES: That's my point. Let me finish the question. When the U.S. Forces left within 24 hours, he was rounding up his Sunni opponents and threatening to put the vice president on trial. Why was the U.S. not able, with all of the weaponry and support that it's given the Iraqis, why was it not able to put their hand on Nouri al-Maliki and say, be inclusive the way you promised? Because look what's happened because he did the opposite.

SUNUNU: Because we stupidly lost the leverage by withdrawing 10,000 troops that was supposed to be there. That's the whole point. You cannot give up on what is the right thing to do and then complain that you've created a problem and that is what this administration is doing now. It's wringing its hands because it caused its own problem and it caused the world a horrible problem.

HOLMES: With the situation as it exists now, what are the U.S. options? If you were in power what would you say needs to be done?

SUNUNU: You know, it's like asking somebody who is watching a guy who jumped off a building and about three inches before the bottom you're saying, what would you do? I would not have allowed -- if I really had the power I would not have drawn a phony red line in Syria. I would not have done what I said was the mistake of not negotiating a status of forces agreement. I would go right now to Maliki and say if you want assistance, we have to negotiate the treatment that you're going to give to the Sunnis in your country after this problem is solved and if you can't get that kind of an agreement, we ought not to provide any assistance. I suspect you will find him very receptive and I suspect that some point, you will find some combination of covert action, plus perhaps a little bit of air strikes to provide the assistance, but you do that after you have used the leverage against Maliki.

HOLMES: Yeah. Governor, that would be good in an ideal world. He hasn't shown much impetus to play ball, Mr. Maliki but you are right, it's a very difficult situation. Governor, got to go. Thanks so much, but don't go away. Please stay with us. Coming up, the 41st president turned 90 years old on Thursday. He doesn't seem to be slowing down. No, does he? Ahead, we are going to talk about his and his family's legacy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Former President George H.W. Bush is the subject of the new CNN film documentary "41 on 41" It's an intimate look at the former president. He was also, of course, the father of the 43 president. As Bush 41 celebrates his 90th birthday, that was just this week, it was on Thursday. And he celebrated by going sky diving. This was his eighth time he's jumped out of an aircraft. Now, the first time was when he was actually shot down over the Pacific in World War II. But he since has gone several times for fun. John Sununu is back with us now. Former New Hampshire Governor, President Bush's White House chief of staff from 1989 to 1992. And I know, you were there at that skydiving event. In fact, we have a picture that you took. We can put up now. You attended the former president's birthday party that night as well. Here's the picture from of you two together at least in the office. Many hours. And here is some of the video that you captured from that sky diving event. So we know just how close you are with the former president. We know you are also part of tomorrow's documentary, which features 41 people. Everyone from President Obama to the former TV anchor Tom Brokaw sharing thoughts on Mr. Bush. So, governor, let me ask you this question. What do you consider George H.W. Bush's greatest achievements?

SUNUNU: Well, you know, everyone knows about the great things he did in foreign policy and really helping guide the world to the collapse of the Soviet Union and certainly providing the needed response in the Middle East when Iraq invaded Kuwait. But I think his greatest achievement is just beginning to be appreciated. People are discovering that he passed more significant important domestic legislation than any other president since World War II, except possibly and I say possibly Lyndon Johnson.

CABRERA: What is something ...

SUNUNU: Not only did he pass a budget agreement that -- the budget agreement that set the stage for the surpluses in the mid '90s and the growth period of the mid '90s. In fact, the Kennedy Foundation gave him the profiles and courage award for having made the tough decision that allow that agreement. The Clean Air Bill, which had been stifled for 13 years, he brought a market based approach and got it passed. He brought - he got legislation passed that deregulated our energy sectors that reduced consumer prices. He got past a significant civil rights bill, the Americans with Disabilities Act, which opened job opportunities for almost 50 million Americans that really had had difficulty in finding jobs. He brought forth a voucher program for support of child care, which is really the prototype for the voucher programs in education.

CABRERA: Clearly, the list is endless seemingly.

SUNUNU: His politics - for America, the Enterprise for the America's Initiative and the Brady Plan opened up the economies in Central America. Latin America and South America, so that it opened up markets for American jobs to be created. So, this is the president ...

CABRERA: And Governor, you mentioned people appreciating - you mentioned the people appreciating some of these accomplishments and I think that really segues nicely to bring up a poll, a new CNN/ ORC poll that shows Bush 41 is viewed more favorable today than when he left office. You can see here. He is now 58 percent favorable versus 47 percent when he left office. And among the living presidents, in fact, only Bill Clinton is higher at 66 percent. So, ultimately maybe even a few years down the road or decades down the road, how will his presidency be remembered?

SUNUNU: I think every year, people are beginning to appreciate it more and more. They are understanding that this was a very quiet man, but a very effective man. And this was a man that led by performance. He didn't brag. He never has bragged about himself. He is always told us the story about his -- how his mother told him not to brag, that what he did should speak for itself. And I think because he let it speak for itself, it's just taken a little bit longer. But as you mentioned President Clinton, I think on "41 on 41" tonight -- or tomorrow night you're going to see President Clinton and President Obama themselves give credit to George Herbert Walker Bush for what he did in his presidency.

CABRERA: He is beloved by many, that's for sure. Both past presidents and current presidents and many others as well. Governor Sununu, thanks so much for spending some of your weekend with us and "41 on 41," the two-hour film exploring the historic policy decisions as well as the person life experiences that shaped President George H.W. Bush's life, that is, tomorrow night at 9:00 - that's 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

Ahead here right now, Bowe Bergdahl is back on American soil. He faces a long road back. While the former Taliban captor recovers, doctors face their own challenge. How do you help a man rejoin life? When all he has known for years is captivity. Ahead, we will speak to a doctor and a former American POW who endured his own ordeal as a captive.

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CABRERA: For the first time in five years, the former Army sergeant held captive by the Taliban is free, back on American soil. This is the plane landing in San Antonio early Friday morning and on board Bowe Bergdahl and a host of people to help him make that transition back to a normal life if that is possible. A physician, a psychiatrist, an officer. What is called a personal recovery specialist, that's part of the team that helped bring him back to the U.S. And right now, Bergdahl remains at Brooke Army Medical Center. He has a whole room set up there, and that aside, attorneys, chaplain, security and financial specialist, but he still hasn't seen his family and that meeting according to experts could be the most stressful part of this whole reintegration process. So, joining me to discuss psychologist and combat stress coach Terry Lyles and Retired Air Force Colonel Lee Ellis who was in fact shot down over Vietnam in 1967 and endured more than five years in captivity in and around Hanoi. So, thank you both for being with us.

TERRY LYLES, PSYCHOLOGIST, COMBAT STRESS COACH: Good to be with you.

RET. AIR FORCE COLONEL LEE ELLIS: You're welcome.

CABRERA: All right, Dr. Lyles, let's begin here and talk about this upcoming meeting with Bergdahl's parents. Sources are telling us he still hadn't spoken to his parents since his release and I think for a lot of us it's hard to understand why. Any thoughts?

LYLES: Well, you know, I think to the outside personnel it does probably look a little strange, but we don't know all of the back story, we just know part of the back story, but it's not uncommon for someone who's been in that level of trauma not to want to reconnect with his past until he needs to. And then after that integration process is fulfilled and seeing his family and loved ones, I'm sure it will get a little easier, but the whole stress of not knowing and the anticipation of not knowing is a big deal. He has been through a lot over the past five years. And this is a whole another stress level he is not even ready for until they get him to that point.

CABRERA: And I'm sure, you know, they are taking their time. They want to do this very thoughtfully and not push him to do anything before he is ready. Colonel, you were in captivity as we mentioned. Even longer than Sergeant Bergdahl. So, let's put aside the question surrounding his capture, why he left his base. What do you think is different about the challenges he is now facing compared to maybe what you faced during and after your captivity when you were in Vietnam?

COL. LEE ELLIS (RET.), FORMER VIETNAM POW: Well, I think, first of all, if he has, in fact, been in solitary confinement for two years, that is going to be a major hurdle. We were in solitary from time to time, and some of our leaders who are in solitary for as much as four years, but we had contact with other Americans and then we had the last two years of the war when it was more live and let live, thanks to the American people who put a lot of pressure on the communists about our treatment that we had time to decompress together with our friends who had gone through a similar situation and that made all the difference in the world for us. So, I think his situation of being alone and not having contact with other Americans who thought like him and talked like him, I think that is going to make it much more difficult for him to adjust and get his feet on the ground and start running again.

CABRERA: You mentioned you had that kind of extra support system that way. People who could really relate and understand what you are going through. ELLIS: Yes.

CABRERA: Colonel, describe your release and your return home. And I know you touched on it a little bit, but in terms of sort of the process that Bowe Bergdahl is going through versus what you went through, how do those two compare?

ELLIS: Well, I came home as a result of the negotiated release in the Paris peace talks. And we were released over a period of about 60 days in large groups of maybe 100 to 120. I was in the third large group and we were handed over by the Vietnamese at Gilan (ph) airport in Hanoi, we were handed over to the American authorities. You can see there I was with Senator John McCain. We were captured 11 days apart and we came home together. We were handed over. We flew to the Philippines, we spent two days in Clark Air Base hospital getting checked over very quickly and getting a uniform and we flew back to the states where we met with our families right away.

CABRERA: Wow. So, everything was very quick?

ELLIS: Yes.

CABRERA: That whole turnaround?

ELLIS: It was.

CABRERA: Very different.

ELLIS: And we were able to call them from the Philippines and talk to them within a few hours.

CABRERA: Wow, amazing. You know, unfortunately, we are out of time. But if you can very quickly, Dr. Lyles, talk about how Bergdahl is learning to do things on his own? Because he couldn't even make decisions for himself in the past five years.

LYLES: Well, that is going to be the challenge. And I appreciate the colonel's service as he mentioned and, you know, this augmentation of going back to reality. I mean his reintegration process is going to be very different because, you know, he was five years in captivity, no English speaking as far as we know. And inhumane situations. So, his process of recovery is going to be slow and ongoing and, you know, his family meeting - it will be the first step with his recovery that will really be ongoing for years, but he'll be fine as long as he has a good support system around him.

CABRERA: All right. Big step. Dr. Lyles as well as Colonel Lee Ellis, thank you both.

LYLES: Thank you.

CABRERA: We will be right back.

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HOLMES: Welcome back, the U.S. one of 32 teams hoping to make their mark at the World Cup this month. The team's first game, Monday against Ghana. Now, the U.S. would love to win its first cup. It's a bit of a long shot. The U.S. facing the so-called group of death, it's more than one group of death, though, in the World Cup. I can say Australia is in a group of death, too, with the Netherlands and Spain. Anyway, an upset would go a long way towards helping the team make their mark in Brazil. Good luck against Ghana. Soccer rules (ph) to take the = probably not, Ana.

(LAUGHTER)

CABRERA: Good luck to the underdogs, though

HOLMES: All right. I'm Michael Holmes at CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.

CABRERA: And I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thanks so much for spending some time with us.