Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Iraq's New Crisis; Radical Terror Group Vows March to Baghdad; Group Storming Iraq Too Extreme for al-Qaeda; Terrorist Aim to Create New Islamic State; ISIS Nears Baghdad; Crisis in Iraq Affects U.S., World

Aired June 14, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, you're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Michael Holmes here at CNN World Headquarters in Atlanta.

Now, for the next 60 minutes here on CNN, no newscast or not as you know it anyway. What we've got is a plain language discussion about a part of the world that American and coalition forces worked, fought and died to rebuild and stabilize. We're talking about Iraq, of course, and it is falling apart again. Happening so fast the rest of the world can barely keep up.

And it is not just Iraq we're talking about. What is happening there has effect way beyond Iraq's borders? You're going to hear this word a lot this hour, extremists, Islamist, extremists, thousands well organized and well funded and led by a man they call the new Osama bin Laden, although many people he's even more brutal, more ruthless. These ISIS fighters as they're known are plowing south from the Syrian border taking towns, overrunning Iraqi army units pushing ever closer to Baghdad.

Nothing is stopping them yet. Eight years of hard, deadly international work to fix a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq has just about been set back to square one. Now, I've spent much of the past decade reporting from one end of Iraq to the other, through the war and indeed afterwards. I was there most recently in January. Some of these same extremists took over towns in Anbar Province after a bid of a blunder by the Iraqi government. Now, the other people you see here have lived and worked in Iraq. They are the best in the business at telling modern Iraq's stop-and-go story.

And things right now look very dire in Iraq. For the next hour, we're going to talk about what is happening in this country. Who this extremist group, the ISIS is, who is scaring the hell out of the Middle East and why the United States and partners may be returning in some form very soon and also crucially why it matters to Americans. We're back after we get you up to speed with this report from senior international correspondent Arwa Damon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Captured by ISIS in Mosul as the Iraqi army abandoned its position, row upon row of American-made military hardware. This and much more heavy weaponry and ammunition is at ISIS disposal as they advance southward. The province of Diala just to the north of the Iraqi capital, video purporting to show ISIS fighters stomping on the uniforms of Iraqi soldiers who fled. Maliki, your ranks are at our feet one says.

Also in Diala Province, this. An ISIS military parade, two trucks filled with missiles, potentially just an hour away from Baghdad. As Iraqi security forces melted away with the ISIS advance, a security source tells CNN, Iran sent in reinforcements. Several units of its elite republican guard to support Iraqi government forces. But as this is fighter spoke, they may have grander plans. "God willing, we will raise our flags in Tehran," he says. Hundreds of Shia volunteers allegedly heeding calls to join the Iraqi army. Shia militias reactivated under different names.

And the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani also issuing a call to Iraqis to join the fight against ISIS. But this is much more than a battle between a terrorist organization and a government. ISIS' advance was through predominantly Sunni land, marching through the north and then moving down towards Baghdad, lands where most of the Sunni population despise Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's polarizing policies which further alienated the Sunni population. The Iraqis have called for U.S. assistance, something President Obama said, he is reviewing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: prPreWe can't do it for them, and in the absence of this type of political effort, short-term military action, including any assistance we might provide, won't succeed. So, this should be a wake-up call.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DAMON: But it's also a wake-up call for the Americans. They supported Maliki for a second term when he pledged to form an inclusive government, but upon acquiring the position simply consolidated power around himself, further angering the Sunnis.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: We've got for you now three CNN senior international correspondents with vast experience in the region, Arwa Damon is in Erbil in the Kurdish part of northeastern Iraq, Nic Robertson is in Baghdad, the capital, Ben Wedeman in Jerusalem. Now the question, of course, to all of you, let's start with you first, Arwa, you know, this didn't come from nowhere. This has been building for some time. I think a lot of people perhaps in the United States watching from afar might be surprised but Iraq was no showcase for post-war stability, was it?

DAMON: No, Michael, it really wasn't, and the Americans while they were here did manage to bring about a semblance of stability, although than violence never really ended, and when they withdrew just under three years ago, they said that they were leaving behind an Iraqi security force that they believed could hold on to what they were calling them the security gains, but we saw that fall apart almost as quickly as American boots left Iraqi soil with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki consolidating power around himself, around his Shiite base, employing polarizing politics that's really alienating the Sunni population, allowing its disenchantment to grow.

And long story simplified and very short is that that anger eventually grew, allowing an organization like ISIS to capitalize on it and really move forward at the speed that we've been seeing it plowing through these various predominantly Sunni territories, reaching at this stage a distance only about an hour away from Baghdad.

HOLMES: And now, Nic Robertson, let's bring you into the discussion. Nic, you're there in Baghdad. I'm keen to get a sense of what the mood is there. I mean, the Iraqi forces and in particular the militias, the Shia militias, who have been brought back to the fore, they're probably well equipped to preserve the borders if you like of Baghdad, but what goes on inside the city in a sectarian sense is crucial to this, the Sunni/Shia divide very alive within the capital.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And that is a concern. There's a real feeling in some parts of the city, some Shia parts of the city, that they don't know what is hiding and what could come out of the predominantly Sunni neighborhoods here. So, the current atmosphere is really sowing even deeper seeds of distrust. There are more checkpoints in the city and there's been no trouble in mobilizing and reenergizing and reactivating some of those old Shia militia. Today we saw on the streets very close to the center of Baghdad here hundreds of young and old men, some in camouflage, fatigues, some in regular civilian clothing, answering the call to rejoin and start up those militias.

There were RPGs, there were heavy machine guns, light machine guns, pistols, all in evidence. Very tight security around them, because the government doesn't want these new volunteers to be attacked on the streets here before they can even get to the front lines north of the city. What the government's trying to do is create this militia buffer north of the city it seems to slow down the advance. It does seem to be slowing ISIS' advance to a degree, but those tensions, they're very high here right now -- Michael.

HOLMES: Yes, and, you know, and really, when you think about it, I mean, if there was another country on earth where 800 people a month were being killed, this would be creating even more alarm and would have for the last year or two. Ben Wedeman, let's discuss what happened with Nouri al-Maliki, this is a man that the U.S. backed, a man by all accounts, by seats anyway, by counting the seats, lost the 2010 election but they backed this way into government again. I remember being on the border of Kuwaiti/Iraqi border when the last U.S. soldier went out and it wasn't 24 hours before he started rounding up his Shia political opponents and it went from there. How was it that he was able to get away with basically thumbing his nose at the U.S. and others who said be inclusive, power Shia, he did the opposite.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly we know that he's a man who always operated in sort of in secret and kept his cards very close to his chest and he did not make it clear to the Americans, who were under the impression that somehow he would try to work together -- work to form some sort of government of national unity. It never happened. In fact, it wasn't too long before, in fact, he threatened to throw his vice president into prison. The most prominent Sunni politician, who ended up fleeing to the Kurdish area, where afterwards the Iraqi government sentenced him to death in absentia, and that sort of lead to one thing after another alienating the Sunnis of Iraq to the point where we see that when ISIS showed up in Mosul, there was almost no resistance.

The army just threw down their weapons, took off their uniforms and ran away. So, certainly we saw that increasingly he had a very narrow base of support within Iraq, very much around the Shia majority there. He really made no efforts to extend a hand of friendship to the Sunni minority, which increasingly felt that they had extreme differences with the government in Baghdad and it led to this. So, it really comes as no surprise given the narrow base of his government in terms of the other minorities within Iraq -- Michael.

HOLMES: And, Arwa, I want to go back to you because, you know, when we talk about these Sunni tribes, I think it's important to make people realize that most Sunnis, these tribal leaders, if you like, they don't like ISIS. They don't love these guys. They don't like the way they govern. These are the same people particularly in Anbar Province who fought against al Qaeda at the American's behest. They don't like being told what to do historically. And so they now find themselves in a situation where they are not just tolerating ISIS, but encouraging them. How do you win them back over?

DAMON: It's going to be very difficult at this stage, Michael. And this is very much Iraq's history repeating itself. Let's just briefly go back to 2006 when al Qaeda, the Sunni insurgency was at its peak, take two years later, 2008, the U.S. surge is happening. These Sunni awakening councils form. The U.S. basically differentiating at that stage between extremism like that of al Qaeda in Iraq and what they were calling the Sunni nationalistic insurgency, those Sunni nationalists is what then became the awakening council, they turned and fought alongside the Americans against al Qaeda.

One of the key reasons why General David Petraeus' surge strategy actually ended up working back in 2008. At that time the vast majority of these Sunni fighters vowed that they would not make the same mistake again. They would not join up with an organization like al Qaeda in Iraq. ISIS today is effectively al Qaeda in Iraq having undergone a significant deadly transformation. But essentially at the very core, very similar entity. And right now you have those same Sunni tribes, those same Sunni nationalists who once fought against an al Qaeda-like organization feeling as if they have no other choice but to once again join ranks with the extremists, with whom they do not share a similar ideology. These Sunni tribes, these Sunni fighters do not want to see an Islamic caliphate established in Iraq. They'll tell you they want democracy, they want freedom, they want equal rights, but that is what the situation has come down to here. That's how little faith they have in the government of Shiite Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, they are willing to turn towards these groups once again in the name of trying to defeat the Shiite government in Baghdad -- Michael. HOLMES: Enemy's enemy is my friend. Arwa, thanks so much. Stand by

Nic Robertson, you, too, and Ben Wedeman, we'll going to tap into your experience in the region as well. We're also going to be joined by Kimberly Dozier, a veteran correspondent wounded in Iraq and she's going to join our conversation as well. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Well, they're calling him the new Bin Laden. In just four years Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi he's created a ruthless strike force of Jihadist militants fixated on creating a far-reaching Islamic state governed by strict Sharia law. ISIS is not only capturing towns and cities in Iraq and Syria, but where else might they look? Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, Kuwait, that's all part of what they call the Levant.

Now, let's get into some of these questions, our panel of senior international correspondents, Arwa Damon, Nic Robertson, Ben Wedeman also joining us now is Kimberly Dozier, contributing writer at "The Daily Beast." And good to have you with us. Kimberly, you know I want to start off first by talking a little bit about ISIS. Ben, a lot of people say they're so extreme, they were disavowed by al Qaeda. How much truth is there to that?

All right. I think Ben might be having a little bit of trouble. I know that Nic, let's put the same question to you. How brutal are they? And how have their methods changed from perhaps how al Qaeda used to operate?

ROBERTSON: Well, Zarqawi who was the head of al-Qaeda in Iraq really got into a lot of trouble with al Qaeda for beheading and that kind of stuff. But really, ISIS is the most brutal of all the jihadist groups at the moment. Zawahiri, the number one in al-Qaeda, al-Qaeda's leader took over from Bin Laden, has been telling -- has been calling on other Islamist groups in Syria, rebel groups there particularly Jabhat al-Nusra in particular who that had a falling out with ISIS because of ISIS' extreme tendencies to bring them to heel. ISIS have thumbed their nose at Zarqawi. In fact, what's incredible about ISIS at the moment is they are not only fighting Assad in Syria, they're not only fighting the Iraqi government in Iraq but they're also fighting a handful of other Islamist groups inside -- inside Syria as well.

They're fighting at their back door and their front door and their neighbor's door as well. And that is because they are so radical and so extreme. They're fallen out of control of mainstream al Qaeda now. And are sort of picking up the banner, really. I mean, Al Qaeda, who leads al Qaeda is, who is the most popular, who is the most strongest. Who is getting the biggest following? Who is getting the most money? They are kind of way out ahead. If you remember Zarqawi in Iraq, sorry too much detail here, but there was one point where Bin Laden said, well, I guess, we've just got to accept Zarqawi because he's becoming such a name. Well, maybe Zawahiri will do that with al Baghdadi, but it's kind of becoming that way right snow -- Michael.

HOLMES: And pretty much too. It was all Baghdadi who just wouldn't take orders from al Qaeda, hence that breakaway, too. Kimberly, let's bring you into the discussion here. You spent a lot of time in Iraq and you were wounded there working as a journalist. When you looked at how it's all unraveled, are you, like many of us not all that surprised?

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "THE DAILY BEAST": It's painful to watch, because this is kind of coming full circle. Baghdadi's, one of his mentors was Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al-Qaeda in Iraq and we were hit by a car bomb allegedly built by one of his cells. Now, Baghdadi was held by the U.S. military before he was released sometime in 2011. He was held at Camp Bucca. They say that he was careful to keep very low-key presence there. He didn't stick out. He didn't exhibit leadership qualities. But they do believe that he ran the Sharia court within the camp. So, he was already then building a network and planning for his future. Once he was released, he must have gone back to some of those same sources and started building an army.

HOLMES: Yes. Ben Wedeman, I'm going to tap into your long knowledge of this region having lived there pretty much most of your life. You know, when we talk about this caliphate, this sort of great land without borders if you like, that al Baghdadi wants, and he talks, he mentions the Levant, give us a sense of this caliphate and how it might appeal to many Islamists.

WEDEMAN: Well, the caliphate was a political entity set up after the death of the Prophet Muhammad and it's essentially the political entity that includes all Muslims wherever they are. And it certainly has certain appeal to many Muslims. Now, the caliphate was abolished in 1924 by Kemal Ataturk, but it remains an ideal for many within the Islamist movement. And it has a wide appeal because it represents the re-establishment of an Islamist super state, a state with no borders, which would be powerful along the lines of the United States, of Russia, of China, with great resources, human resources, economic resources, and political resources.

And this is basically what ISIS is pushing for, the re-establishment of a caliphate. And certainly it's an idea that alarms many of the regimes in the region who see it as a direct threat to their political legitimacy. But for those who are disappointed with the whole nation- state experiment in the Middle East, they point to the brutality of the regimes in places like Syria and Iraq, and they say we need to re- establish a state based upon Islamist principles, sort of disregarding the entire veneer that's been imposed by the west of the nation-state that we know it today. So, it does have a deep appeal to many people. And certainly for Iraqis and Syrians who have suffered under war, civil war, dictatorship, they look at the idea of the caliphate and they find it one they like.

HOLMES: And erasing of those post-World War I lines on a map as they were so famously known that created the modern Middle East as we know it.

Stay with us, everyone, when we come back, the brutality of ISIS captured with their own cameras. The group using propaganda, pretty slick propaganda sometimes, too, to recruit even more extremists. Many of them foreigners coming from other lands who might one day go back home.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back to our in-depth coverage of what is going on in Iraq. The crisis that continues to unfold there. Bring back our panel of experts, all well versed in the field. We've got Ben Wedeman, Arwa Damon, Nic Robertson, Kimberly Dozier. Arwa, I want to get your thoughts as somebody who lived in the region and spent so much time in Iraq about this notion of the caliphate and whether it has much support amongst those that you know.

DAMON: No, Michael, it doesn't. And I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of Muslims do not support the notion of the creation of an Islamic caliphate nor do they want to see themselves living under the kind of draconian Islamist laws, interpretation of the Islamic laws, that an organization like ISIS is trying to impose on the population. Even if you look at what is happening in Iraq right now and the fact that ISIS has gained so much momentum, so much territory.

Yes, other Sunni insurgent groups are right now fighting alongside it, along with the Sunni tribes, it's not because they subscribe to that ideology. And you can look at it as some fighting alongside ISIS or you can look at it as them simply fighting the predominantly Shia-led government. Because at this point in time they feel like as if have no other choice. But again, the vast majority of Muslims who you speak to do not want to live under that kind of rule.

HOLMES: You know, Nic Robertson, Kimberly Dozier made a good point about how Baghdadi was held by U.S. forces for years and by all accounts became more radicalized by the experience. How successful or unsuccessful have been the deradicalization programs that were put in place that were meant to try to get some of these radicals back into normal life, if you like?

ROBERTSON: Yes, it was felt at the time it was partially successful. I mean, what they were really trying to do was isolate the real radicals so they couldn't radicalize the marginals and perhaps Baghdadi did manage to radicalize more people in jails. It wasn't just a problem here in Iraq, it's a problem all over the world, in jails everywhere, Europe and the United States, Islamists are radicalizing people inside jails. And it was a problem. It was a problem here. A recognized problem. And there was a huge effort to try and deal with it, putting in huge efforts to sort of deradicalize people, integrate them with their families.

But at the end of the day, you know, you can't get inside someone's mind. And when you have a polarized sectarian situation like you do in Iraq today, it's very easy for somebody who is persuasive like Baghdadi who's got this agenda, to say, hey, you know, it's not really about "x," "y," and "z," you've got to take this philosophy and you'll find people to run with it.

HOLMES: Yes. Ben Wedeman, you know, speak if you will, to the irony, if that's the right word, of the U.S. being asked to militarily elite support an Iranian-backed government fighting a foe that in all likelihood has been at least partially or indirectly funded and armed by U.S. ally in the region like Saudi Arabia. I mean, it's a very confusing landscape when you've got your allies perhaps supporting a group that you're now being asked to fight that's backed by Iran.

WEDEMAN: Well, Michael, war and politics make strange bedfellows and this is certainly the case, but we've known for years that Maliki during the regime of Saddam Hussein spent a lot of time in exile in Iran. The Iranians have had long relationships with their Shiite co- brothers in Iraq, and it's not surprising that the relationship that was developed in Iran and between Iran and Iraq became this essentially an alliance between Iran and Iraq, even while the United States was still in the country.

And, therefore, certainly for Maliki, Iran is his biggest backer, his biggest friend. And, therefore, if the United States wants to back up Maliki, it's going to be a de facto alliance with Iran, whether it likes it or not. They may not see eye to eye in other places, like in Lebanon regarding the position of Hezbollah, Syria, which is also a very close ally with Iran, but if they want to save the Maliki government, that's something they'll just have to do.

HOLMES: And only briefly, if you can, Kimberly -- nothing can be done briefly when it comes to the Middle East, but do your best. You have also a situation where the West is supporting Iraq in a fight against ISIS but still urging the overthrow of Bashar al Assad in Syria, who is also fighting ISIS.

DOZIER: Yeah, it's a very complicated situation for the administration, which really doesn't want to get involved at all. They've been reluctant to send any sort of direct military aid to the fighters fighting Assad in Syria. The president has said he won't send troops to Iraq. He would consider air strikes. He would consider drone strikes. But he wants the Maliki government to more properly represent both sides of the ethnic divide in Iraq before he's going to do that. So, you have a situation where the White House has imperfect knowledge of what's going on, on the ground, in Syria or Iraq because it has a pretty shrunken intelligence picture in both locations. And you have a situation where if it doesn't get involved, however, this could trigger a full-on sectarian civil war.

HOLMES: And a reasonable one at that.

Stay with us, everyone.

We're going to be right back. One of the things I want to discuss when we come back is the strong man, the Saddam Husseins, the Bashar al Assads. Are some people having a bit of a hankering to go back to those days when things were at least a little bit more stable? We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back to our coverage of the "Crisis in Iraq." We're going to continue our discussion.

This is a crisis that does affect Americans or could affect Americans directly. It affects the world. And we're going to continue to have a conversation about it with Nic Robertson, Arwa Damon, Ben Wedeman and Kimberly Dozier.

Nic, I think you said during the break you've got a question.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I do. And it's kind of the elephant in the room or at least the thing we're not discussing right now, and that's sort of how the Kurdish part of the country and the Kurds fit into the current dynamic. There's certainly a feeling I'm getting here from people in Baghdad and also from the Sunni tribes who are kind of -- they gave me a strong indication, you know, part of the preparation for what they were doing here with ISIS did involve the Kurds, and certainly a feeling here in Baghdad that the Kurds are in on this against this government as well.

So, Arwa, kind of what's the sense you get up there, that the Kurdish Peshmerga has taken control of Kirkuk? In Baghdad, people are saying, are we going to get it back? What's the deal? What are people saying where you are?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Nic, it's not just that they've taken control of Kirkuk, too, but all along that disputed line that exists between the autonomous region of Kurdistan and the rest of Iraq. You've been seeing the Peshmerga, the Kurdish forces, slowly moving forward, saying that they're taking up these various positions to prevent certain territory from being taken over by ISIS. They'll tell you behind closed doors that they have no intention of pulling back after all of this. In fact, some senior Kurdish leaders will go so far as to say this is the silver lining for them in everything that is happening. They are most certainly going to, at the very least, try to use this to their advantage, at least use it as a significant bargaining chip when it comes to moving forward, should we reach a point where there is some sort of political negotiation.

But both the Kurds and the Sunnis have been very disenchanted with how Nouri al Maliki has been governing. Both of them have been warning the Americans that they have great concerns about this even before the U.S. military withdrew.

HOLMES: Right.

DAMON: But now, most certainly, the Kurds feeling that they can play this to their advantage.

HOLMES: Yeah. They're not going to give up Kirkuk easily, that's for sure.

Kimberly Dozier, when it comes to the U.S. and all the talk of no boots on the ground, there might be air strikes. It's not that easy to do air strikes in that part of the world.

DOZIER: Not that easy for a couple of different reasons. To do an air strike, you need to know what to hit. And right now administration officials tell me they're not quite sure who makes up this army that has been marching south. Part of it is ISIS, yes. But much of it is also old Baathist leaders from the old army. So, they say, OK, what law are we going to use, what authority are we going to use to assist Iraq by doing strikes? If they use something called the armed use of military force -- sorry, the Authorization of the Use of Military Force, passed in 2001 against al Qaeda, well, you're already on sort of shaky ground because ISIS and al Qaeda have disavowed each other. Also, you can't use that to go after an old Baathist.

The other problem is, when we shrunk our forces there and drew back to the embassy in 2011, that meant we also cut ourselves off from human intelligence networks across the country. So, the U.S., the CIA, the Pentagon have very imperfect knowledge of what's going on in those northern cities. They had their sort of intelligence eye blacked out before this all -- this march south happened.

HOLMES: Right. Yeah, exactly. And the worst thing you could do is try to bomb bad guys and hit guys that you're actually trying to go back into the fold.

Ben Wedeman, in the West, I think everyone had a bit of a -- a lot of governments had this desire that there would be a wonderful Western- style democracy in Iraq, and elsewhere for that matter, in the region, but it's just not realistic, is it, in a place, in a region, where it's family first, tribe second, nation down the list. Do you think there are some in the region who feel that the strong-man ideal is a good way to go?

WEDEMAN: Well, certainly, the idea is making something of a resurgence. Just look at Egypt and Abdel Fattah al Sisi, who despite some vocal opponents, seems to have a lot of support because he's a strong man. Now, just the other day, I was speaking with a retired senior analyst in the Israeli army, and he was gushing about it, Abdel Fattah al Sisi and Bashar al Assad, as the few men who have successfully sort of put down the Islamists. Now, it's a different situation in Egypt than Syria. But certainly, he believes that, in Syria, Bashar al Assad has made tactical pullbacks. He's basically allowed the rebels and ISIS and the al Nusra Front to busy themselves fighting one another. He said, with the Arabs busy killing one another, we have a time-out to focus on how to deal with these problems. So, certainly there is the idea of the Arab Spring and democracy is taking a bit of a beating these days as we see events in Iraq and Syria.

HOLMES: All right. Thanks, Ben.

Stay with us, everyone.

We're going to take a short break here. Plenty more to discuss, though. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back, everyone to CNN NEWSROOM and our special coverage of the "Crisis in Iraq."

Our correspondents all over the world bringing you the latest developments in what is a fast-moving story, but crucially, also giving you some context, some background, some history. We're going to get back to that discussion in a moment.

But, first, let's bring in Ana Cabrera in New York with some of the day's other headlines stories -- Ana?

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Michael.

Today marked one of the bloodiest days yet in the Ukrainian crisis. We want to let you know that a Ukrainian military transport was shot down earlier this morning. It was about to land in a city near the Russian border. Now, Ukrainian leaders blame pro-Russian separatists. After this incident, leaders in the U.S. and Europe, they called on Russia to do more to rein in the separatists, to find a diplomatic solution to this conflict in eastern Ukraine. Now, that take-down of this plane marked a dark sparked a protest that was just outside the Russian embassy in Kiev. The demonstrators shouted insults, they threw rocks, eggs. They demand Russia leave Ukraine. Tires were piled up at the entrance and embassy signs were defaced with graffiti. Several diplomatic automobiles were also flipped over.

Across the southern U.S., dozens of children from Central America continue pouring into the U.S. across the Mexico border in what some people are calling a pipeline of minors. Most of these children, some as young as 4, are traveling without adults. One detention facility in southern California that opened just a week ago already has more than 200 children, and they expect to be at capacity with 575 children by Tuesday. Officials say the children are being bused north through Mexico by so-called guides who tell these children that once they're in the U.S., they will be allowed to stay.

And in Pittsburgh, former Steelers head coach, Chuck Noll, has died. He led some of the biggest names of the game back in the '70s and '80s, including Terry Bradshaw, Mean Joe Greene, Franco Harris. Noll took over the struggling franchise back in 1969. It was at the bottom of the league! But by 1972, he had transformed it into a powerhouse, and under his leadership the Steelers clinched four Super Bowl wins. Chuck Noll suffered from heart disease and Alzheimer's. He was 82.

Now, to this week's "CNN Hero," a hero who is helping teen moms beat the odds.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICOLE LYNN LEWIS, CNN HERO: I was 17 when I was pregnant with my daughter and 19 with my son.

You ready to get up? Ready to go to school?

When being labeled a teen mom, there are certain stigmas that you're lazy, you're going to end up living on welfare and working the system.

Everybody has their own opinion on what's going to be the most beneficial for you. Often, it can feel like a downgrade from what you want to do.

When a young person discovers a pregnancy, people stop talking to them about college. We saw that we could be that voice, saying, yes, you can go to college. This doesn't have to be the end of your life.

I knew from my own experience that college had transformed my life as a teen mom, so I wanted that same success for other young parents.

We're going to get the other room set up for the kids.

It becomes imperative for parenting students to have their band of cheerleaders behind them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I ended up getting by GPA up to 3.8, which I didn't believe was possible.

(CHEERING)

(APPLAUSE)

LEWIS: We offer trainings on various topics.

We're going to talk about balancing school and balancing your role as a parent.

The most part of our program is the intense one-on-one mentoring from a caring individual from the community.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I won the College of Science Deans Award.

LEWIS: I knew you could do it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Generation Hope has really helped me believe in myself. They prepare us to have the skills for the future and we can pass those skills on to our kids.

(LAUGHTER)

LEWIS: I'm motivated by the potential that's out there that's untapped. I want to be able to help each and every one of them achieve their own success.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: On that feel-good story, Michael, we'll send it back to you.

HOLMES: Ana, thanks so much.

When we come back, we're going to continue our discussion about Iraq. Is democracy even possible there? And why should Americans care? Why does it matter to you? We'll have that conversation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Welcome back to our conversation about Iraq, what it means to you and the world. President Obama says intervention in Iraq won't happen overnight, even though an air carrier is on its way to the gulf.

Let's bring in a panel of our senior national correspondents, Arwa Damon Nic Robertson and Ben Wedeman; also Kimberly Dozier, contributing writer at "The Daily Beast."

Ben, let's start with you for our last wrap-up comments.

What are the regional implications how ISIS spreading?

WEDEMAN: One of the problems, Michael, is everybody loves a winner and that includes extremists. When you have radicals in places like here, who see the blitzkrieg that ISIS has launched, they want to follow suit. In fact, we have been covering the last two days the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank. The first claim of responsibility with we received is this one, it's a claim of the responsibility by the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, the Palestine West Bank branch. Now, we don't believe this is legitimate claim, but the fact that they went to the trouble to put it together, a statement like this, means that people here are watching what is happening in Iraq and some --even though it will be very difficult, given Israel's security services and military might, but they are looking to Iraq and the victories of ISIS as an example.

HOLMES: Yeah, it's a dangerous band wagon, that's for sure.

Nic Robertson, one of the risks we talk about here is, those who are traveling to the region, the sort of war tourists, if you like, getting experience and going home.

ROBERTSON: We almost joked about it before. Look, they are being attracted to ISIS in Syria, and they've been going, flocking to Aleppo, Iraq or wherever ISIS will have them to join the fight. Now guess what? They can come to Iraq as well. They were coming back here in then last decade when U.S. forces were here. So it's back on the map. What worries European counterterrorism officials is that there were thousands of these foreign fighters that have gone to Syria. They worry about them getting training out here, going back home perpetrating attacks. There does appear to be the first example of that. A couple of weeks ago, I was covering a shooting in Brussels. Four people gunned down in a Jewish museum there. When the man was finally caught, the French prosecutor involved in charging him said he believed that this man had been to Syria and got training, spent months there, handled weapons, came back, and was a lone-wolf gunman attack. It's a trend that has a lot of people worried.

HOLMES: Very worrying, indeed.

Arwa Damon, can democracy work in Iraq?

DAMON: Michael, it's not so much a question of can democracy work in Iraq, per se, as it is a question of, does the strong-man formula hold up in the Middle East and that has proven itself to be unsustainable. The issue when it comes to what is transpiring in Iraq and across the region is quite complicated. And I think America's demise when it comes to this part of the world is that it only views what is happening on a very superficial level and through a very American prism. The Middle East, its borders are not organic to the countries themselves to the populations. They were drawn up artificially. People have been coping with that for decades. Right now, we have these strong men emerging and taking control, but all of them, by and large, backed by Western powers as well. So, the Middle East hasn't really had a chance to identify itself without the meddling of outsiders. When it comes to this notion of democracy, the people really need to be given a chance.

HOLMES: That's a really important point.

Arwa Damon and Kimberly Dozier, last word, and an important word, if you can in a minute or so, why should Americans care?

DOZIER: Americans need to care because, first of all, as Nic mentioned this area is becoming a magnet for foreign fighters, who, as one U.S. commander told me, will likely be attacking U.S. interests for a decade or decades to come. Second reason, if ISIS moves on Baghdad, the Iranian government will feel compelled to likely send in forces and advisers and maybe even actual troops. We could see a conflagration triggered between Shiite forces and Sunnis that could go for years to come.

HOLMES: And would be an utter and unimaginable bloodbath.

I want to thank all of you very much, Kimberly Dozier, Nic Robertson, Arwa Damon, Ben Wedeman, people with an extraordinary amount -- I don't want to call you old -- but decades and decades of experience in all of this.

Thanks so much to all of you.

I'm Michael Holmes. The next hour of the CNN NEWSROOM continues after a quick break. I'm doing the same show tomorrow at 5:00 and 6:00 eastern, and maybe we will continue this discussion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)