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U.S. Might Talk to Iran; Iraqi Troops Falling; Mom on Run to Avoid Vaccinating Child

Aired June 16, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Wolf, thank you so much. It was a great interview. We'll bring you back to talk about that discussion.

Meantime, hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now, this ruthless strike force of jihadi militants, it's on the move in Iraq, capturing yet another city, fighting their way toward Baghdad. So what happens -- and this is the big if -- if they make it to Iraq's capital city? What we do know is this, is that Iraq is on the verge of an all-out sectarian war. This terror group, ISIS, slaughtering dozens of Iraqi soldiers. A mass execution in revenge for the loss of one of its commanders. American troops preparing for the worst. Some 100 U.S. marines are headed to the U.S. embassy in Baghdad as some embassy staffers are moved out. The Obama administration also considering talks with its long-time nemesis, Iran, to look for solutions here to halt this advance of ISIS.

Joining me now, our senior international correspondent, Arwa Damon. She is live for us in Erbil, Iraq.

And, Arwa, let's just begin with -- they're just absolutely brutal. These execution videos posted by this ISIS fighter, can you just walk me through what we're about to see?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's absolutely chilling, Brooke. We do have to warn our viewers of that. And it really leaves no question as to why these fighters, this ideology, needs to be stopped.

Now, in this video, you see a bearded man with a gun standing over five individuals on their knees. He's calling them Maliki's dogs. He's slapping them around. And then, in another part of the video, he wants them to repeat after him, "Islamic state here to stay." Two of the men do repeat it. They comply. The third man struggles to speak. It's as if he's trying to formulate the words, but he can't. He seems to be very dehydrated, almost unaware as to what's happening around him. And then, in a video that we cannot show at this stage, you see him dead. His jaw has been blown off. The executioner, the man with the beard, has a FaceBook page, Brooke, and he's posted photographs to the FaceBook page of that execution. His name is Abu Hamza (ph). He's Tunisian. And he's boasting on this FaceBook page about how he killed a Shia.

Now, with all the horrific videos and photographs that are coming out of these executions. You know, we often don't know who the victims are, but in this case we did manage to identify the man who couldn't speak. He was 37 years old, a father of three, Brooke. He had two sons and a daughter. And according to people who knew him, he loved his children so much he would do anything for them. In fact, the reason why he took the job as a border guard was so that he could build them a home.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: The fact that these militants have all these cameras and know exactly what they're doing, the role of propaganda and social media. We'll delve into that a little later this hour.

But, Arwa, let me ask you about the U.S. embassy. It's the largest U.S. embassy in the world. It's almost like its own city. It's a compound. What's being done to shore up the embassy in Baghdad?

DAMON: Well, the U.S. has historically always been very secretive about its own security measures. We are hearing that they are taking out some of the nonessential staff, relocating them as diplomatic speak goes, sending in additional teams to try to ensure the security of the embassy.

It's located well inside the very heavily fortified green zone, although at this stage, of course, the green zone's perimeter in and of itself is being protected by the Iraqi security forces, although it is a unit that is very loyal to Shia Prime Minister Nuri al Maliki. There are also, as you have been reporting, preparations underway for an evacuation, should it actually reach that stage. Although I can tell you, Brooke, if we do reach that stage, Iraq will not be able to come back and recover from that kind of violence.

BALDWIN: Arwa Damon, thank you. I see my next guest here nodding right along with you. A man who knows the violence in Iraq better than most, Michael Holmes.

How many times have you been to Iraq now?

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Fourteen in all. Went up at the beginning and was there when the last U.S. troops came out in 2011, on the border there. And most recently there in January.

BALDWIN: CNN international anchor. You were there as recent as January. And just quickly, before we get into the Q&A, let's just take a look at the lay of the land. As we look at Iraq and they're heading toward Baghdad, Syria here, porous (ph) border, moving southward.

HOLMES: Yes. Yes. They - they basically -- their headquarter, if you like, is here in Ruka (ph). This is in Syria. The border kind of runs down this way here. And that's where they were and based and doing damage to Bashar al Assad. Now they've crossed over, of course, been heading south, gone through Mosul. I've been there many times. It's a huge city. And for them to take that is extraordinary. Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's birthplace. You know, to be getting down into here, they're already down here in Fallujah, Ramadi, other places like that. So they're knocking on the door. They're in a place called Bakuva (ph), a 45-minute drive. BALDWIN: Listen, part of the conversation today is about, could they

actually seize Baghdad. Many people are saying, there's no way. Nine million people versus, what, some maybe couple thousand militants. But that -- the eye is on the prize, being Baghdad. If you were ISIS, if you were this militant group, what would your targets be? Typically in cases like this, it's the airports.

HOLMES: Yes, absolutely. And you hear ISIS often being described as a ragtag group of terrorists. They're --

BALDWIN: Do you agree with that?

HOLMES: I don't think that they're ragtag. I think they're very well- organized. I think they know what they're doing. They're operating in an operational way. They're operating as an army rather than a bunch of people going around and setting roadside bombs. They seem to have a plan. Yes, the airport would be - or (INAUDIBLE) Baghdad International Airport would be a prime target, because that would disrupt everything and it would stop people from being able to get out.

BALDWIN: But you think they're already there?

HOLMES: Well, they - well, look, you've got - ISIS is already in Fallujah and Ramadi, parts of Ramadi, in Anbar province. Again, only an hour or so from Baghdad. They've been there since the end of last year, in force, running in there. They have access to Baghdad. They have their way in there. Look, I've heard people say, oh, there was a horrible bombing yesterday. These bombs are every day. When I was there in January --

BALDWIN: You saw them?

HOLMES: Oh, yes, every day. And they were - one -- two days, we had six bombs in an hour. So there are people inside Baghdad now with the capability to cause these problems. The targets were always Shiite, so it was Sunnis doing it.

BALDWIN: Where did this group come from because for so many months we - I say we, the U.S., so we, CNN, were so focusing on covering Syria.

HOLMES: Uh-huh.

BALDWIN: And I'm wondering if there were almost blinders on, focused so much on Syria, and you have -- my producer put it almost like a snake pit of these militants, and correct me, you know, fostering, strengthening, no authority -

HOLMES: Yes.

BALDWIN: And suddenly they're emboldened and they have this momentum and, boom, here they go.

HOLMES: Well, they -- they were always there. They were part of the insurgency. I mean you're talking about some brutal people, local guys. But what's happened is, they moved into Syria. They're always down in Anbar province. They were doing their thing as part of the insurgency when the U.S. took them on, in Fallujah and Ramadi, did them a lot of damage.

These guys then regrouped, became what they are now. They went into Syria, started fighting, got a lot of international fighters with them now, grew, grew, grew, got richer, as well.

BALDWIN: One of the -- one of the towns taken last week, weren't they taken by more - it was almost North African militants. I mean from some of these videos, from what I understand from a general we're talking to later, they're using all these, talking about propaganda, tools to get people from not necessarily Iraq or even this region to come in to fight.

HOLMES: A lot of people - a lot of people want to fight. If they're Jihadis, they'll come from anywhere to fight. And I'll tell one little statistic.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HOLMES: The most foreign fighters in Iraq during the war came from eastern Libya, north Africa.

BALDWIN: Really?

HOLMES: Yes.

BALDWIN: Who is strengthening them, who is providing their money? Do they even care about cold, hard cash when they have these weapons? They use violence.

HOLMES: Well, nobody knows for sure, but the thinking is that there are a lot of extremist Sunni individuals, wealthy people, from places like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia as well, who are funding these guys. They also make their own money. They just picked up about $400 million in Mosul going to the banks and robbing the banks.

BALDWIN: Just -- it's like the wild west.

HOLMES: And they have the ability, too, because up in Ruca (ph) there, they have access to some of the oil pipelines. So they're getting oil money, believe it or not.

BALDWIN: Wow.

HOLMES: They're well-funded. Some estimates say they've got a billion dollars in the bank.

BALDWIN: Michael Holmes, 14 times in Iraq. Come back.

HOLMES: OK.

BALDWIN: This story is not going anywhere. Thank you so much.

HOLMES: Uh-huh.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, I mentioned this general a moment ago, we'll talk live to this general about why President Obama's military options are not realistic at all. We'll walk through those.

Plus, the U.S. captured the leader of this group terrorizing Iraq right now, but let him go. And on his way out, he told a commanding officer, and I'm quoting him, "see you in New York."

And back here at home, a father who says the mother of his child has kidnapped their daughter because she doesn't want to vaccinate here. Hear from the father coming up here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

I just want to stay on Iraq. Let's digging a little deeper into the crisis unfolding there and we'll talk with this American general who commanded U.S. troops. But first, just take a look, another look here at images surfacing out of Iraq that purport to show how fast and how easily Iraq's government troops are falling. These pictures are being posted on jihadi sites worldwide and claim to show the execution of Iraqi security forces. I should add here that CNN cannot confirm the authenticity.

But then there's this video. This was posted on YouTube following piles here of Iraqi forces' uniforms discarded on a sidewalk in Mosul. The question many are asking, how could the Iraqi military fold so quickly, considering the billions the U.S. spent training Iraqi security forces, building their capabilities, et cetera? One of the people asking those very important questions is Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, who served as a commander in northern Iraq from 2007 to 2008.

General, welcome.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), IRAQ COMMANDER 2007-2008: Good afternoon, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let's just begin, quite simply, where -- with the cities where you were headquartered, Mosul and Tikrit, among others, now in the hands of these militants.

HERTLING: Right.

BALDWIN: You're watching all this unfold, changing every day. General, your impressions.

HERTLING: Well, my impressions are, first of all, you're right, it's difficult. We haven't just been -- for those of us who have served there, we don't just focus on this when the crises occur. We've been watching northern Iraq because we've left a part of ourselves there. We were stationed -- our headquarters in Tikrit. My responsibility was for all of the north. And in that responsibility, we trained five Iraqi army divisions that are actually getting some of the heat for giving up their uniforms, turning down their weapons. But I think there have been many contributions to why this occurred. Part of it is the fact that they're dealing with the worst of the worst Sunni extremists. Al Baghdadi is an evil, evil guy and he's taught -- BALDWIN: The leader of this group, ISIS.

HERTLING: Correct. And I think that's contributed significantly. And as Michael Holmes just said a minute ago, they have a strategy. They have an operational plan. This is not a bunch of ragtag individuals.

BALDWIN: Exactly what he said, they are smarter than the world wishes they were.

And let me just - let me point out this "Washington Post" op-ed that you wrote recently about - you know, you outlined sort of how the Iraqi military really folded. And just to quote you, one of your examples, "even before the U.S. forces left, American-trained leaders were being replaced with more and more favored officers from sects, tribes or families linked to the government. They weren't chosen for their competency, a big mistake." And that's one example in the title of your piece, "Iraq is Currently Crumbling." You offer up a myriad of solutions here, but Nuri al Maliki isn't adapting. Is his inability, general, is his inability to lead proof enough that the U.S. must get involved?

HERTLING: Well, and that's the thing. I think the president's national security team is faced with some very difficult choices. And there are no easy answers. And there are certainly no right answers, Brooke. This is a situation where if you go in and back up the government of Iraq, you're basically backing up an individual who has caused some of the problems by his actions over the last several years. Mr. Maliki has not been as inclusive as he should have been with both the Sunnis and the Kurds.

Now, that doesn't account for the extremists that we're seeing leading some of the attack. But it might account for how these individuals might be supported. The Iraqi heartland in the north and in the west are certainly supporting, whether they want to or not, some of these extremist forces because of both the pressure and the violence, but also because they've seen their central government not care much about the inclusion of the other sects within Iraq.

BALDWIN: So if you don't necessarily want to bolster this leadership, what are your options if you're the president of the United States?

HERTLING: Well, that's -- let me revert back to my earlier statement. There are no easy and no right solutions.

BALDWIN: Right. I hear you loud and clear, general.

HERTLING: The problem is, the president's faced with a couple of conundrums. First of all, can he support Maliki, and against Sunni extremists and perhaps some people who are less than extreme and cause problems in other parts of the world. As Arwa said before, maybe Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE. These are Sunni republics. Or does he not do anything and upset the entire Shia world. What are the Kurds reacting and what are the ways they're reacting to this whole situation. So, again, no easy, no quick solutions.

For those of you -- for those of your listeners who would suggest, well, let's just go in and use F-16s or unmanned aerial drones, that might help in a couple of specific and unique instances, but that certainly isn't a war-winner. We had many more air force and UAVs in theater when we had a hundred plus thousand troops there and it was still difficult fighting some of the insurgencies and some of these terrorists.

BALDWIN: So what would change the balance of power on the ground?

HERTLING: Well, I think first -- it's not going to happen quickly, that's for sure.

BALDWIN: Sure.

HERTLING: But I think, as others have said, we've got to bring the politicians together. This is not an army problem. It has been perceived to be an army problem because of the way the divisions of the Iraqi army faded away. But they faded away because of a reason. And that's because of a lack of support by the government, and some sectarian divides within the country. It's a very challenging culture, and we can't just look at the army as being the issue here. It is how the army was supported.

BALDWIN: I understand.

HERTLING: By the government and by the people.

BALDWIN: You said at the top of the interview, I just jotted it down, you said you left part of yourself there some time ago. Just quickly, did you, at any point, predict this would happen?

HERTLING: No, of course not. I don't think anyone predicted this will happen. Although there have been some indicators in the last year that this kind of violence could occur. General Flynn (ph) gave a briefing in January saying that this could happen and he thought it would happen in 2014. But he didn't think it would happen this quickly.

Going back to leaving a part of yourself there. I think all soldiers who fought and families of those who made the ultimate sacrifice are watching this very closely, and they're thinking, was it all for naught. It wasn't. We gave Iraq the chance.

BALDWIN: That's what I wanted to know.

HERTLING: Yes. We gave them the chance, and I think, to a degree, it was squandered. But it could potentially be regained, but it's going to take a whole bunch of smart people to figure out how.

BALDWIN: OK. We'll be watching for those smart people and their decisions. General Hertling, thank you so much for coming on.

HERTLING: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Coming up, with Iraq on the brink of a potential civil war, Iran offers to help the U.S. fight terrorism there. But how smart is it for the U.S. to do business with Iran? We'll talk about that. Also ahead, a woman is facing federal charges for allegedly kidnapping

her own daughter. She's on the run because she says she doesn't want to vaccinate her two-year-old child. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: A Florida mother has taken a stand against vaccines by taking her toddler and going on the run. The FBI has just charged Megan Everett with flight to avoid prosecution. Just last month, the state of Florida charged her with kidnapping. Here's the story. Everett and the father of his two-year-old, Lilly, they share custody. On the day Everett was supposed to drop Lilly off, the father found a letter from Everett instead, according to court documents, and in part this is what it read. Quote, "I love you and Lilly loves you. You are a great dad. If I let them take her and vaccinate her and brain wash her, I wouldn't be doing what's right. I cannot let a judge tell me how my daughter should be raised. We will miss you, but I have to leave."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BAUMANN, FATHER OF KIDNAPPED CHILD: My daughter deserves to be safe and happy and I don't believe being on the run is, you know -- psychologically OK for a two-year-old. I do fear for my daughter's life. I do fear that if she's not in a safe place, you know, she gets injured, I don't feel like she'd seek medical attention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN legal analyst and mom -

SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

BALDWIN: Sunny Hostin joins me here.

I mean clearly this mother thinks what she is doing is in the best interest of her child. That said, would prosecutors give her mom any -- this mom any lenience because of that?

HOSTIN: You know, not at all, because now we're really talking about a kidnapping case, right? And we're also talking about a father who clearly disagrees with that.

BALDWIN: Right.

HOSTIN: Most courts, Brooke, do agree that you have to decide these cases based on what's in the best interest the of the child. But certainly kidnapping, as the father just said, is never in the best interest of a child. And the fact that she disagrees with having her child vaccinated is one thing. We've all debated that at one time or another. You know that's something that -

BALDWIN: Could that be used against her?

HOSTIN: You know, I think that what is going to be used against her is the fact that she sort of flouted these court orders, these custody -- this custody agreement and took her child. But I will tell you, this is a debate that moms have often. This vaccination debate has been in the forefront, I think, ever since, you know -

BALDWIN: For years.

HOSTIN: Jenny McCarthy -

BALDWIN: Right.

HOSTIN: For years sort of came out against it. And I will tell you, there's no federal vaccination law that doesn't exist. But each state does require certain vaccinations and immunizations for public schools. If you want to put your child in school. But there are always exemptions. And that's something that this mother could have done. There are medical exempt --

BALDWIN: That would be my follow-up. There are exemptions?

HOSTIN: Yes. There are.

BALDWIN: he should have followed those paths.

HOSTIN: Absolutely. There are exemptions. There are medical exemptions. There are philosophical exemptions, believe it or not. There are personal belief exemptions. And so the law does provide for situations like this when a mom doesn't want to vaccinate her child. But you cannot just kidnap your child. And I think what is really interesting is that in the note that she left, she said, "you are a great dad." Well, the court is going to look at that and say, so he's a great dad --

BALDWIN: Hang on a second, right.

HOSTIN: But you are still taking his child away from him. It's not going to end well, I think, for this mother when and if and hopefully they do find this child.

BALDWIN: Hopefully they do.

HOSTIN: Yes.

BALDWIN: We'll follow up when they do. Sunny Hostin, thank you so much.

HOSTIN: Thanks, Brooke.

And just ahead, the U.S. had captured the leader of this group, terrorizing Iraq right now, but let him go. And on his way out, he told a commanding officer, "see you in New York." You will hear from that officer in just a moment.

Plus, the U.S. and Iran have similar interests in taking down these militants, but will they talk? Christiane Amanpour joins me live. Don't miss it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)