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U.S. Captures Benghazi Attack Suspect; Has Iraq Already "Broken Apart"?; Twenty Years Later: O.J. Simpson Chase
Aired June 17, 2014 - 15:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, U.S. officials tell CNN Benghazi suspect, Abu Khattalah, is being interrogated as we speak somewhere outside of Libya. The big news broke late this morning, he was captured over this past weekend by the U.S. military, aided by the FBI. He is to be brought to the U.S., specifically to Washington, D.C. for trial, according to Attorney General Eric Holder.
Jake Tapper, our chief Washington correspondent, live for us. Taking the show on the road today to the Newseum for the Global Town Hall with Hillary Clinton, which begins after your show at 5:00 Eastern. We will talk about that in a second, but I want to begin with this arrest of Khattalah.
Obviously it's welcome news. We heard from the president making mention of that in his stop in Pennsylvania today. The Obama administration now has to answer to the question what took them so long.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's a legitimate question given that so many people, especially our own Arwa Damon, but other journalists as well, were able to not only locate Abu Khattalah, but meet with him and interview him and talk to him. Arwa met with him for two hours in August 2013. So obviously, it is not the same thing for a journalist to make an appointment or to see a terrorist interview him and a Special Forces team to go in and grab him.
Obviously those are two different things. But the administration response so far from the Pentagon, from the State Department, to be fair, I think they have been a little snarky about the question. Obviously, there are a lot of political rumblings out there suggesting that the timing is convenient for the president.
I find that a little hard to believe. Politics sullies so many things, but it's a legitimate question, if they had known, if the public has been able to see him, why wait.
BALDWIN: Valid question. So the issue of Benghazi, the issue of Iraq and what's been devolving over the last weeks or days, certainly questions Christiane Amanpour will be tossing toward or really asking in a tough way toward Hillary Clinton. Can you tell me a little more, Jake, about the setup where you are at the Newseum, the format of this town hall? TAPPER: The town hall is in the night studio where they have many events here at the Newseum. A 190 people will be in there with Christiane and Secretary Clinton. They have been picked from local colleges, universities, community groups, and Christiane is going to preside over. She will ask her own questions. People from the audience will be able to ask questions of Secretary Clinton herself. We are all looking forward to it. It's very exciting here at the Newseum.
I don't know if you have ever been here, Brooke, but this is one of the best museums in the country. We're in the Pulitzer Prize winning photograph section right now. It's kind of fun.
BALDWIN: I like it. I can see you sort of dilly-dallying about before your show. Taking a look at all the exhibits. It's phenomenal. I went to the Arlington location many, many moons ago. We will be watching, of course, you at the top of the hour. Jake Tapper, thank you. Then just a reminder to all of you, 5:00 Eastern, our exclusive town hall event with Hillary Clinton moderated by Christiane Amanpour. Do not miss that.
Next, an op-ed the then Senator Joe Biden wrote about Iraq almost ten years ago is coming back up. He was ridiculed at this idea at the time, but were his words actually predicting the violence, the breaking apart that we would see today? We will tell you what he said and how some are reacting to that now.
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BALDWIN: Now to the fast-moving situation unfolding in Iraq, 275 U.S. troops are being deployed there. Their mission, to provide, I'm quoting, "support and security" to U.S. personnel. Take a look at this. Long lines of traffic forming across Iraq as families and civilians try to get out, flee the fighting. All of this happening as Islamic militants battling in the streets of Baquba, a mere 45-minute drive from Baghdad.
Eli Lake joins me from Washington. He is the senior national security correspondent for "The Daily Beast." Eli Lake, nice to see you, sir. Welcome back.
ELI LAKE, SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, "THE DAILY BEAST":: Thanks so much for having me again.
BALDWIN: So of course. Been reading a bunch of your pieces from this week, but specifically I wanted to talk about the piece in which you titled "Practically speaking, the country has broken apart," that's a direct quote, from a top official in Iraq's Kurdistan regional government. People had been warning that Iraq would break apart for years. Joe Biden, then Senator Joe Biden, suggested Iraq would be divided in three parts. Do you think that's where they're going?
LAKE: Well, at this point, you don't want to predict things too much, but certainly it's very significant that the Kurdish forces have been able to secure positions in and around Kirkuk, which the Kurds historically consider to be a Kurdish city, but has quite a bit of oil wealth in and around it.
In that respect, the fact that they were really ten years ago seen as a second-rate militia that couldn't stand up to a national army has been able to do something that the Iraqi army and the U.S. has spent billions training, could not do, is very, very significant in the long run.
Slowly but surely, I have been to Iraq for three extended trips, you see that this Kurdistan region has a lot of the trappings of its own country. There is an airport where they check your passport when you go, they have a very different policy with regard to exporting oil, which they do independently of the government in Baghdad, and now their forces are securing Kirkuk one of the most important cities in all of Iraq.
BALDWIN: So you have been there, you say three times. I don't know when the most recent time was, but I'm curious, I know in the regional level you have the tribes or even the sects, how they would feel about Iraq being, as Joe Biden put it, in three pieces.
LAKE: Well, the U.S. government under both Bush and Obama, for that matter, invested a lot of money in trying to create a competent central government in Baghdad, and preserving the borders of Iraq. What you're seeing now, though, is with the fall of Mosul and the ISIS forces on their way to Baghdad, the failure of one of the most important Iraqi national institutions, which is that military.
And if the military cannot stop a terrorist group like is, that really does call into question one of the most important facets of sovereignty, which is the monopoly of violence. Right now, the government of Baghdad does not have a monopoly of violence in Iraq.
BALDWIN: You bring up the central government, Nuri Al-Maliki, I was talking to Bob Baer this week, former CIA, and he said he is one of this growing chorus saying no doubt, get Maliki out. If he goes, wouldn't there be this vacuum created? I would fear more militants.
LAKE: Well, I think that there is an understanding or appreciation that Iraq will have very similar kind of politics as Lebanon, where the Shiite majority believe they are entitled to the prime minister position. But there is a huge difference between Maliki who has become an authoritarian and has been impervious and ignored the Sunni minority and in many ways acted as a Shiite Saddam Hussein.
Disappearing people, arbitrarily detaining and arresting people, and using violence to put down peaceful protests, you could imagine there would be a Shiite leader who would be more interested in reconciliation. Certainly an earlier iteration of Maliki when he let something called nights charge against some of the militia's supported by Iran, certainly people hoped there was potential for such leadership in him but they are disappointed. It's possible you could see another leader more interested in that kind of power sharing.
BALDWIN: A Shiite Saddam Hussein. I had not heard that one yet. Eli Lake, thank you so much.
LAKE: Thank you.
BALDWIN: Quick programming note for all of you, make sure you tune in to a special "AC360" tonight. Anderson Cooper on the ground live from Baghdad 8:00 Eastern right here on CNN.
Coming up next, today marks, for this, where were you, the 20th anniversary of O.J. Simpson and the great wild ride in his white Ford Bronco. The jury consultant who worked on the O.J. Simpson trial says the scene changed trials forever. We will talk about that live next.
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BALDWIN: In the summer of 1994, a beloved football star, actor, pitchman, O.J. Simpson became the prime suspect in the brutal murders of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown and her friend Ronald Goldman. Every twist and turn gave the American public a front row seat to the American history starting with the infamous slow speed chase through Southern California seen right here on CNN.
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LARRY KING: I'm going to have to interrupt this call. I understand we're going to go to a live picture in Los Angeles. This is Interstate 5 and this is courtesy of KCALR, one of our L.A. affiliates. Police believe that O.J. Simpson is in that car. Now police radio saying Simpson has a gun at his head. Reuters is reporting that the police tracked O.J. Simpson through his cellular phone. Look at all the cars on that bridge looking down. This is living drama. There's nothing else you can say but we're going to stay with it.
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BALDWIN: I remember watching Larry King. I don't know about you, we CNN stayed with that story. More telling is how the story has stayed with us in the 20 years since that day. Richard Gabriel, let me bring you in. He was the jury consultant and author of the new book called "Acquittal." Welcome. Nice to have you on, sir.
RICHARD GABRIEL, JURY CONSULTANT FOR O.J. SIMPSON TRIAL: Thanks. Good to be here, Brooke.
BALDWIN: You worked on the O.J. Simpson trial along with a lot of high profile cases over the years including Phil Spector, Casey Anthony. You say, "On a stretch of the 405 Freeway on a sunny afternoon in 1994, Pandora's Box was opened and the chaotic clash of news media, journalism and advertising dollars, public craving, criminal investigations and prosecutions, celebrity culture and constitutional protections was unleashed on our unwitting justice system. We are still trying to close the box." How do you mean?
GABRIEL: Well, up till that point we had this black box myth, which essentially is that the trial happens in the courtroom. And on that stretch of 405 Freeway on that day in June, all of a sudden, 100 million people and then the entire nation and even to a certain extent the entire world became jurors in the case. And all of a sudden, it wasn't just witnesses from are the witness stand, it was the journalists somehow bringing forth evidence. It was tip hot lines. It was the "National Enquirer" and all of this mixture of celebrity and entertainment all got thrown into this mix. It became this sort of carnival, and it sort of made it very difficult and quite challenging to actually try the case in a very narrow way the way cases are tried and to a certain extent, I think we're still seeing those repercussions today.
BALDWIN: Yes, we have seen much of the carnival like atmosphere for sure. I have to ask you, Richard, you were in O.J. Simpson's house not long after that verdict came down. I want to ask you about that in a minute. But first, people have suggested your work with Simpson and Specter and Anthony was the reason they walked free. As a jury consultant did you help the defense choose the jury for O.J. Simpson that would get you the not guilty verdict?
GABRIEL: Well, to a certain extent, Brooke, the evidence in your case is only as good as the audience you have. And you don't really select a jury. You really deselect that jury. In other words, you're trying to take away people who have a preconceived bias against your client. So I help the attorneys essentially talk to the jurors, find out if they've already prejudged our clients, and obviously, very difficult in a case where there's been a lot of publicity. You hope to carve away those people and help jurors find jurors that can really just focus on that evidence and hopefully acquit your client.
BALDWIN: OK. The O.J. Simpson house after the verdict, what was that like?
GABRIEL: It was strange. I mean, it was the whole -- the whole atmosphere was so unusual because there's always mixed feelings that you have after a verdict because you're relieved for your client, but there's great sadness because it's a tragedy that really has occurred. And in approaching the house, there was this bizarre atmosphere outside.
There were people partying. There were kids from the west side that were out drinking. There were people that were hurling insults at the house and there was security inside. And I walked inside, and I'm sitting there looking at where the evidence was collected, where O.J. Simpson was knocking golf balls and where bloodstains were found.
And I walked in and saw him, this man who was to a certain extent broken and exhausted and there was not that charm because he had been in jail for a year. I could see him trying to figure out how he was going to live his life in this new identity that was no longer his own.
BALDWIN: Twenty years ago. Your book is called "Acquittal." Richard Gabriel, best of luck to you. Thank you for coming on.
GABRIEL: Thank you, Brooke.
BALDWIN: Two high profile mayors caught on camera. One dropping the "f" bomb, the other saying he loves another city. We'll play them for you and explain next.
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BALDWIN: Intellectual conversation. Can I put on my kid hat and ask you, what is it like being down there? I know you're trying to best your grandfather by staying down for 31 days. It's so much more than that, I know. What are you eating? How are you sleeping? Where do you go to the bathroom? Can you answer those questions?
FABIEN COUSTEAU, OCEAN EXPLORER: Well, all those questions are actually common questions a lot of people ask me. You're not the only kid out there. And they're very good questions because we are in an alien environment. And this -- we're surrounded by the final frontier on our planet, which is pretty amazing. Last night was one of the most spectacular displays of predator I've ever seen and it was right outside our view port.
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BALDWIN: Fabien Cousteau, thank you for talking to me, 63 feet under the ocean's surface. Richard Branson joined us. Windy Smith joined us, thank you. Learn all about his 31 days under the sea. Go to mission 31day.com and you can check out our half hour conversation.
Before I go, New York's mayor made good on his hockey bet with the mayor of Los Angeles last night. His hometown Rangers lost the Stanley Cup playoffs to the L.A. Kings last week.
That can't have been easy for Bill De Blasio. L.A. fans out in full force yesterday. Mayor Garcetti may have enjoyed the championship by the Kings a little too much.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But there are two rules in politics. They say never ever be pictured in a drink in your hand and never swear but this is a big -- day. Way to go, guys.
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BALDWIN: The channel carrying the rally had to apologize for the "f" bomb being dropped. The team's president warned the players not to curse. Apparently the mayor didn't get the memo.
I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me here today. See you back here same time same place tomorrow. Let's go to a special "LEAD," live from the Newseum in Washington. Jake Tapper starts now.
