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Secretary Of State Kerry On Iraqi P.M.; Official: A Few Small Teams Of Advisers To Be Sent To Iraq To Gather Intel; Daily Beast: Terror Group Has Tweeting Leaker; Benghazi Suspect Interrogated On Navy Ship; England Plays Uruguay In World Cup Crunch Game; Man Rescued From Germany's Deepest Cave

Aired June 19, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: -- it is a fact well known that we have been pushing for certain reforms for a period of time. But more importantly, people in Iraq have asking for these reforms for a period of time.

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BALDWIN: Secretary of State John Kerry responding to a question moments ago as far as the future of Nuri Al Maliki, the prime minister of Iraq. Secretary Kerry really echoing the president. President Obama's message earlier today when he said it is not our business to choose leaders. Here he was from earlier today.

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Above all, Iraqi leaders must rise above their differences and come together around a political plan for Iraq's future. Shia, Sunni, Kurds, all Iraqis must have confidence that they can advance their interests and aspirations through the political process rather than through violence.

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BALDWIN: Again, that was the president. A little while ago, announcing he is prepared to send up to 300 military adviser into Iraq to try to help Iraq stop this onslaught of Sunni militants. Before we push ahead, brief history, 6,000 B.C. desert nomads had an idea, they gave up wandering and between two rivers they declared they were home. Built shelters and grew crops and traded among themselves and started keeping records. History, as it were.

Fast forward through the millennia. After World War I, that spot where humans first established roots became a country we now know as Iraq. Its boundaries drawn not by its own people, but rather by European diplomats with scant regard to the fact that their newly minted Iraqis had develop a long history of fighting each other.

Saddam Hussein, you may recall, frightened Iraqis so much so that for most of his 24 years in power, they suspended their mutual hatred, but since his overthrow at the hands of U.S. forces, Iraq, despite strenuous efforts by the U.S., is back to trying to settle its age-old score.

So Bobby Ghosh, formerly of "Time" magazine, now managing editor of "Quertz." Bobby Ghosh, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me. I want to -- I really wanted to have this smart segment on the current play, but also looking at history. It is true Iraq's troubles started perhaps even end with the map that was drawn after World War I. Would you agree?

BOBBY GHOSH, MANAGING EDITOR, "QUERTZ": Well, yes. It is suddenly true that the British and French drew maps all over the Middle East. In fact, all over the colonial world that if you look back and make no sense at all, but let's not forget, there are many countries that were created with that whimsical map making. That held together pretty well and don't have the kinds of problems that Iraq has.

So it is not simply a question of bad map making that brought Iraq to where it is today. It is also succession of poor leaders and -- two very devastating wars. One against Iraq -- Iran and then, of course, more recent war against the U.S. and coalition forces.

And then some really terrible government after the war by the person who is now prime minister, Nuri Al-Maliki. So yes, history is very important, but it is part of a continuum of extremely poor governance by over a millennia, if you like, that brought --

BALDWIN: You mentioned -- Al Maliki mentioned leadership. Again, I go back, the 100 years after the European established Iraq and established the government and established rules. And so it is still happening. These outside powers, these outside forces, trying to make the rules for Iraq. The White House is saying, you know, it wants a new leader there.

GHOSH: It is saying that between the lines. The White House is not alone. There are plenty of people much closer to Iraq. In its own neighborhoods that are saying the same things. Frankly, in a Democrat, it is hard to think of a Democratic country in the world where a leader loses large amounts of territory to a terrorist group, thousands of his people die and his soldiers give up the battle and run away.

And that leader still stays in government and most democratic countries that leader would have in shame and humiliation been either -- would have either resigned from government or would have been driven out of government by his own political party. It is astonishing that Maliki is still prime minister of Iraq.

The longer he is prime minister of Iraq, he is clearly a very divisive figure. He is not, to use the words of a former president, he is not a uniter. He a divider.

BALDWIN: How can you guarantee if ultimately Maliki goes away -- who could -- are there names being thrown out, I haven't read any, whether it be Sunni, Kurd, Shia, who could lead the country as a uniter? GHOSH: Yes. That is very much a problem. It is clear Maliki is not the right man for the job. Who is? That is much harder. The one name that keeps coming up is the predecessor. He does not prove to be a particularly adept administrator either. What seems to be very clear and we've seen similar situations in other parts of the world, in a situation like this when the country is in danger of being ripped apart, you need some sort of a national coalition government.

It brings together all political movements, all political schemes under one common banner. If you are lucky then you have a charismatic statesman-like leader in the middle who can rule. If you are not lucky, at least if you have all parties under a common tent, you have the different groups talking to each other politically.

In Iraq, you plainly don't have that. Maliki simply refuses to talk to the Sunni political leadership. Never mind the terrorists. The Sunni political leaders. He is -- he had a Sunni vice president. He issued an arrest warrant against him. The vice president had to flee the country. That is not a way you include people. That's how you push them away.

BALDWIN: Bobby Ghosh, managing editor of "Quertz," you have to imagine the White House is evaluating and watching under Al Maliki each and every day right now. Thank you so much for joining me.

Now to this terror group in Iraq, ISIS, considers itself a state. It appears the so-called government has a leaker. It appears. Take a look at this article from "The Daily Beast," calling, quote, "Someone is spilling ISIS's secrets on Twitter." It is about the account @wikibaghdady, which has been revealing insider details for more than the last six months about ISIS' covert alliances, names of leaders and more.

So who is behind the account? Joining me now the author of this article, Jacob Siegel, army veteran and reporter and editor at "The Daily Beast." Jacob, welcome.

JACOB: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: This @wikibaghdady, who is this person or persons and -- is what had individual is claiming via Twitter actually being carried out?

JACOB SIEGEL, REPORTER AND EDITOR, "THE DAILY BEAST": Nobody knows exactly who is behind the account. It is -- an anonymous account. Clearly it is not a disinterested party. It is not somebody looking to just object the truth. Is -- probably most likely somebody who belongs to one of ISIS' Islamist rivals likely in Syria. Probably the news up front. It is somebody whose intent is to smear ISIS and by smear, I don't mean point to the group's brutality, but to smear it in terms that would undermine it to other Islamist followers.

BALDWIN: That is the perfect segue way because -- what was in your piece, the obvious question is why, why is this person -- what are the motivations? You write, "Whoever is behind the tweets isn't motivated to an allegiance of truth or the idea liberated and spoken to power. Like a mafioso complaining that his fellow hitman failed to play by the rules, it is not the murders that bother wikibaghdady, but the way they are carried out." How do you mean, Jacob?

SIEGEL: Well, I mean, the bulk of the accounts complaints, really focus actually on the formation of ISIS and its split from the news front, which is the al Qaeda affiliated group in Syria. And this is actually really something that goes back to ISIS' involvement in the Syrian civil war. They had always been in Iraq and originated in Iraq.

It was not until they got involved in Syria that they gained the strength that allowed them to pull off what they had been doing in Iraq now. In the course of fight in Syria, they ended up alienating other Jihadi groups, other groups that they once had alliances with and there has been a back and forth effort on Twitter, information operations from various factions, seeking to discredit one another.

And what Wikibaghdady seem to have been doing, among other things, was pointing to some of the Baathist ties in ISIS. That is being Saddam Hussein's party. Right. So -- an Arab nationalist party and by pointing to those ties, it was seeking to discredit the religious authority and the credentials that ISIS had by suggesting that high-level level inside ISIS was bad or pointing out those ties.

As it turns out, ISIS' ability to take over the second largest city in Iraq. Mosul want to spread as quickly as it has due largely to the fact it is not acting alone. It is part of a broader Sunni coalition. It certainly involves Baathist groups. While this account was seeking to discredit ISIS, it clearly didn't work even amongst perhaps a receptive audience in the Jihadi community. ISIS has only gotten more popular.

BALDWIN: More popular gaining all this traction. Much of it is because of this propaganda, but it's really war front documentation what they have been putting out on the Internet. Jacob Siegel from "The Daily Beast." Thank you so much. It is an interesting angle, this whole story playing out in Iraq. Thank you.

Coming up next, the main suspect in the Benghazi attacks on a ship back to the U.S. is being questioned right now. We will talk live to an interrogation expert about what could be happening on board this ship.

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BALDWIN: Squeezing the suspected Benghazi raid mastermind for valuable information probably will not be easy. Right now, Ahmed Abu Katallah is on a slow boat to America. He is being questioned on this U.S. Navy ship after Special Forces set a trap and nabbed him in his villa Sunday in Libya. Taking him by sea, rather than air, allows FBI investigators maximum time to question him.

So we bring in our interrogation expert, Bob McFadden, former NCIS special agent in charge. Bob, nice to have you on.

ROBERT MCFADDEN, FORMER SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, NCIS: Thank you. BALDWIN: I want to get into the nuance between law enforcement interrogation and battlefield interrogation. I think that's an important distinction. The first -- talking about the story. I heard some experts say that this ship may travel very slowly, as slow as it needs to, so this guy talks. What's the first thing as an interrogator you try to do?

MCFADDEN: Well, the first thing is establishing some kind of relationship or rapport in getting to what are his primary motivations? What's the subject's primary motivations? Now not just for a case like this individual, Khatallah, but when it comes to combating terrorism cases or in the criminal realm, something you touched upon from my experience going back to before 9/11.

There is really but a fine line between so-called intelligence interview and criminal interrogation. I know for me and -- partners for the "USS Cole" investigation, 9/11 operations and investigations, it was about the actionable information that can be used by planners, to disrupt plots and come up with battle plans. Something that you mentioned, though, before, about a tactical battlefield interrogation, though. It is different by degree than interrogation in this type of setting.

BALDWIN: This type of setting, you know all along that this guy is going to trial. You need to build a case. Right?

MCFADDEN: That's right. Absolutely. But think in terms of the jointness here and -- this seems to be a really effective hybrid approach where you have special operation forces, FBI elements and U.S. intelligence community all combining for the snatch and grab to have the subject in custody. What happened in Benghazi, of course, critically, terrifically important. Both for intelligence purposes and then for the elements of the crime when it goes to court. But rest assured right now in the early phases, as long as he's talking, it is going to be about intelligence requirement.

BALDWIN: If you are sitting -- let's imagine you are on the ship and you are facing Khatallah, at what point as an interrogator do you know have you him? He is going to talk.

MCFADDEN: That is a good frame of reference. Even in the most productive cases, rarely is there ever a breakthrough where the subject says, OK, you have me. Whatever you -- want, get ready, it is usually more of an incremental approach based on how the rapport and relationships are going. Tapping into those things that most motivate the subject and using information that he's giving to determine whether it is truthful, validating and vetting, building trust and building confidence.

And some of the best-laid plans experienced interrogators know they may have to change on a dime if the plan is not working. There may be even a situation, too, where -- you are -- you can be certain that some of the best interrogators in the business are there and that if it is just not clicking with the team, they may bring in others to have a more effective approach or different approach.

BALDWIN: What's the biggest mistake an interrogator can make?

MCFADDEN: Not coming up with the information.

BALDWIN: Not coming out with the information. Bob McFadden, thank you so much. As we learn more about the story, love to have you back to talk about that. Thank you.

Coming up next, World Cup fever. A key American player will miss Sunday's crucial game against Portugal. But happening right now, the game between England and Uruguay. We have live fan reaction from where else, a pub, of course coming up.

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BALDWIN: A key American player will miss Sunday's World Cup game against Portugal. U.S. forward, Josie Altidore is out. He got hurt, strained his hamstring during the U.S. team's huge win Monday against Ghana. Brand new video shows the U.S. team practicing today in Sao Paulo. A team spokesman says there is hope Altidore can return at some point during the tournament.

Right now, I can tell you that England taking on Uruguay in a crunch game. Each team looking to rebound from opening match losses. Richard Roth joins us live from the Blind Pig Pub in New York's East Village. This is my favorite time every four years, the glisten, twinkle in your eye talking World Cup. Richard, take it away.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well that twinkle sometimes occurs elsewhere in New York. During this world cup, it's very exciting. Uruguay did, England, 1-0 Uruguay at the half. I've got English supporters, Dean and Paul. What did you think of Wayne Rooney's performance and England's performance?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're getting beat so not very good. But Rooney's good, man. Like everyone's bashing Rooney. He's not having the best of game, but there's nothing wrong.

ROTH: England is not knocked out, but obviously a loss would put them in a really bad position headed to the last final group game. Paul, what do you think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most certainly. The only thing to be said is once more into the breach, dear friends. I'll fill this pitch with our English debt.

ROTH: Shakespeare in the park is further uptown. English fans have gotten a little bit used to losing lately. A lot of high hopes the last World Cup. Only win was 1966. What do you think? Is this over again? Are you used to losing already?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm afraid I'm a little bit used to it. Two years before I was born. I'm a middle-aged man. This is a problem. We have to solve it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sound English man. You're negative, man. Only 1-nil halftime. ROTH: Just a television reporter. By birth, we're negative. Does it is hurt Luis Suarez played in England for Liverpool. He is playing against four, five of his mates right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's going to score.

ROTH: So you don't mind it's him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we need to score than he's going to forward.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's a great forward. It's happening. It's happening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: England!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, England!

ROTH: I just met these men. Anyway, I'll see them further in the back I'm sure. Brooke, back to you.

BALDWIN: Richard Roth, a man who has covered the United Nations for many years. I love it when you talk soccer. Richard, thank you so much. Good luck to those teams.

Coming up though, some serious news, getting some breaking news from the CDC, up to 75 employees may have been unintentionally exposed to anthrax. Our medical team on the story. We'll talk to Elizabeth Cohen after a quick break.

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BALDWIN: An amazing rescue to show you in Germany. This man trapped underground for some 12 days in the deepest cave in Germany brought to the surface. CNN's Diana Magnay shows us this dramatic rescue.

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DIANA MAGNAY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Trapped underground for 12 days gravely injured, finally on Thursday morning, lifted to safety in the long unseen light of day. It was one of the most delicate perilous and possibly expensive cave rescues of all time. The man at its center, Yohan Veshauser, strapped to this stretcher and hoisted, winched and squeezed through the belly of the Bavarian Alps.

NORBERT HEILAND, CHAIRMAN BAVARIAN MOUNTAIN RESCUE (through translator): I have the pleasant duty to inform you that the injured cave explorer has safely arrived at the clinic. We have reached the main goal of our rescue mission, to get the patient the emergency aid that is appropriate for his condition.

MAGNAY: Deep inside these mountains is a vast network of tunnels and chambers largely unexplored. The whole complex means giant thing and it's Germany's deepest cave. The 52-year-old experienced cave explorer was 1,000 meters underground when he was injured by falling rocks, suffering trauma to the brain. One colleague stayed with him wrapping him in three sleeping bags to keep him warm and dry in near zero temperatures while the third member of their team went for help.

And so began a complex operation involving international teams from across the alps, 200 rescue workers inside the cave alone who relayed the patient slowly painstakingly along the narrowest of sharps past waterfalls and up vertical climbs to safety. Up at the entrance to the cave high in the mountains, helicopters brought him food and equipment.

The whole area sealed off to other air traffic to make sure nothing interrupted the mission. Rescue workers were clearly emotional at the successful outcome of such a technically complex mission.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I saw an hour ago when my people came back down from the mountain how the strongest guys who are not easily shaken, who have been in the cave for days had tears in their eyes when the moment came.

MAGNAY: Mission accomplished for the more than 700 involved in an epic tale of man versus mountain. Diana Magnay, CNN, Berlin.

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BALDWIN: Diane, thank you. Just quickly, we're finally getting some information on breaking news I mentioned, the CDC saying 75 of its employees have been unintentionally exposed to anthrax. They say that exposure was after proper safety procedures, but they were not followed. Jake Tapper has more on that now on "The Lead."