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Lawmakers Demand Answers; U.S. Advisers Head to Iraq; Presbyterians Vote to Allow Same-Sex Marriage; U.S. Star Jozy Altidore Will Not Play Portugal

Aired June 20, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Happening now on Capitol Hill, the House Veterans Affairs Committee trying to peel back another layer of the deepening VA scandal. Specifically, lawmakers want to know why executives were rewarded with hefty bonuses, even as their facility stonewalled veterans and left dozens to die while awaiting treatment. The outrage has been building.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We've had problems time and time again where it appears that it's much easier to get a bonus at VA than it is to get disciplined or be fired.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone literally has to be committing a crime in order to get fired in the federal government.

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HARLOW: Joining us by phone is our senior investigative correspondent, Drew Griffin, who first broke this story. He has been on top of it.

Drew, this is another layer. What are we expecting today?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): You're going to hear from the head of human resources from the Department of Veterans Affairs. She is the only person testifying for this -- before the House Veterans Affairs Committee. She's going to try to explain, Poppy, how with all of the problems that the VA has had and known about for years, why so many, if not all of the senior executives have been given performance bonuses. That includes the director of the Phoenix VA, where, you know, this scandal really blew up. But it also includes the directors who ran the VA in Pittsburgh, at the very same time that there was a Legionnaires problem in the water supply killing veterans there and the VA knew about it. So it's going to be a very, very tough line of questioning because, quite frankly, these members of Congress find it incredulous that these bonuses are so easily handed out.

HARLOW: Sure.

GRIFFIN: They're almost like entitlements, not bonuses. HARLOW: Wow. You know there's also a very important update in terms of the audit released by the VA, in terms of numbers here. What have you heard on that front?

GRIFFIN: Well, the numbers released yesterday are showing more and more the true wait times. We had an initial audit that looked pretty bad. And as the numbers come in and are more accurately recorded, it's just getting worse. Now there's tens of thousands of more veterans across the country who have been waiting four months or longer for appointments. So as the VA actually does its own correct auditing of itself, we are realizing that this wait list scandal across the country is just getting bigger, which is why today you're going to have some serious questions about why the bonuses are being doled out.

HARLOW: Absolutely. It's such an important story, Drew Griffin. Thank you for breaking it and being on it for us throughout. We appreciate it.

Meantime, 300 American military advisers now on a mission to help stop ISIS. They may not be combat troops, but they're more than just analysts. They will include Navy SEALs, Army rangers, very high- ranking officers, armed not with assault rifles, per say, but with advice on how best to halt the swell of violence.

Let's bring in our experts to talk about this. Joining me now CNN military analyst and retired Air Force lieutenant, Colonel Rick Francona, also CNN political contributor Sally Kohn, and in Washington we have former special advisor to President Obama, Barry Pavel.

Good morning to you all. Thank you for being here.

Let me start with you, lieutenant colonel. We've been talk about this over the past few days, you and I. I want a sense from you of exactly what these military advisers on the ground are going to do, because I heard it described well this morning, someone said, they're not boots on the ground, but they're boots on the ground.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They are boots on the ground. And people at the Pentagon are telling me their initial job when they get there is to assess the situation. They want to find out what's the actual condition of the Iraqi troops, are they capable of doing this, and what are we going to have to do to get them up to speed. Just what kind of advice, what kind of training, what other kind of assistance are they going to need.

They're also going to assess the capabilities of ISIS. So you're going to have U.S. intelligence people on the ground again. This will be the best source of information because, frankly, we're not trusting Iraqi intelligence right now.

HARLOW: Barry, you served under the Bush administration and the Obama administration and you think that right now the president has a lot of it right in terms of diagnosing the problem. But actually you think that his proposed actions are too measured, too modest. Why?

BARRY PAVEL, ATLANTIC COUNCIL VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I would have done -- I think it is a good first step. I would have done two things a little differently. Instead of making it a U.S./Iraq thing, I would have made this a many country/Iraq thing. And so I hope that Secretary Kerry's trip to the region this weekend is to build a broader coalition to do two things that are required. One is, work hard diplomatically with the Iraqi leadership to make sure they have a more inclusive approach that includes the Kurds and the Sunnis to break the Sunni's off of ISIS. And then, number two, to do the counter terrorism work that we just talked about because it's not only the U.S. that this would affect. It's a lot of countries. So I would build a broader coalition.

HARLOW: But can -- I guess, can you count on that from the Maliki government right now to all of a sudden turn the page and be inclusive?

PAVEL: You definitely cannot. And that's why instead of just the U.S., I would have had the Gulf Coordination Council, the Arab League, maybe Russia, maybe China, maybe European countries. We all have an interest in this, so working together we cannot make it a U.S. thing.

HARLOW: Maybe Russia right -- maybe Russia -- maybe -- well -- well, I'll get back to you in a moment. Maybe Russia right now? I mean look at tensions there. And then, of course, people are talking about whether or not we should partner with Iran at least on this front.

Sally, to you. you say no way, no how should the U.S. get involved. At the same time, can we risk this region falling more into the hands of our enemies as we have seen unfolding especially in recent events? Can we afford that right now?

SALLY KOHN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, Poppy, let's step back and remember the reason we got into this war in the first place was this sort of theory of threat. There weren't any concrete threats, but there was this sort of trumped up, oh maybe someday, possibly, what if. I don't think maybes and some days and what ifs are enough to risk again more American lives, number one.

HARLOW: But is -- is this -- but, Sally, is this a maybe? Is this a what if? I mean we're seeing it unfold 37 miles from Baghdad?

KOHN: But, look, this -- look, ISIS is not al Qaeda. We know that. And we also know that while they're not good people, what they want to do right now is set up a Sunni state that is very violent and very ugly and very bad. And certainly bad from a humanitarian perspective. But if we're looking at American interest and we're looking at -- whether we can actually -- forget, by the way, whether we can actually help solve what is an ethnic tension we have nothing to do about and can only exacerbate. We know, as a country, how to deal with Sunni states. There are Sunni states. We don't go and invade all of them or (INAUDIBLE) military action. This is a -- this is a political problem and there is not a military solution here.

HARLOW: I understand that point. Also, though, I want to say, al Qaeda leaders have even said that some in ISIS are too much for them. So they're not al Qaeda, but they're extreme and dangerous. And, you know, our -- the Yemini government, a source there, to you Lieutenant Colonel Francona, a source in the Yemeni government told our Mohammed Jamjoom that al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula may start working with ISIS in Iraq. In terms of what can be done here, what do you think should be done? I assume you disagree with Sally. Correct me if I'm wrong.

FRANCONA: I do, but the -- I think it's important that we eject these people from Iraq. We need to get them out of there. We cannot take the status quo. We can't just stop where we are. We can't go in there and say, OK, no more, we're going to stop them at the gates of Baghdad. We've got to roll this back because we can't afford to have a fanatical Muslim state in between Syria and Iraq. We've got to get these people out of there. And I think that's what the initial goal of the Iraqis will be to do that.

They're going to set up these two control command posts joint with the U.S., one in Baghdad and one further north. And that one further north, I assume they're going to try and cut these people off and then push them out. And I think that's important.

HARLOW: I wonder -- Sally, to you. I mean looking at what the president announced yesterday, right, up to 300 of these military advisers going in with their expertise. And if indeed force is need, that, you know, air strikes are not off the table at this point. Do you think this was the right move by the administration or would you not have even liked to see this kind of involvement? Are you worried that this is the beginning of more?

KOHN: Well, look, I mean this administration hasn't shown its timidity when it comes to, you know, getting bin Laden and using drones to attack enemies of the country. So, obviously, I'm not always aligned with the administration on this point.

But, you know, again, the American people want us to take military action when our national interest is threatened. And in the last several years since the Bush administration, we've moved from direct and clear and credible threats to hypothetical threats. That is not enough to justify putting American lives at stake. There are hypothetical threats all over the place. It's not enough. And in this case, American intervention, taking sides, trying to put military muscle into what is a political problem only risks creating the kinds of threats and blowback.

HARLOW: I -- I want to get Barry back in here.

Barry, your response?

PAVEL: I mean the job of a president is to lead and to help inform a public debate. And you want to get ahead of threats like this. If you give a virulent, skillful, well-armed, well-resourced terrorist organization that's more extreme an al Qaeda, the leaders of a nation state, in the most dangerous region of the world, I think we want to get ahead of that, not wait for it to happen.

HARLOW: I appreciate the time. I wish we had a lot more of it with all three of you. Thank you for the expertise on this Friday. I'm sure we'll have you back here very soon. Thanks so much. KOHN: Thanks, Poppy.

PAVEL: Thank you.

HARLOW: Still to come here in the NEWSROOM, two landmark gains for same-sex marriage. One coming from the government. The other coming from a big American church. We're going to tell you what they are and what's ahead, next.

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HARLOW: A win for supporters of same-sex marriage. The White House is expected to extend more federal benefits to legally married couples regardless of what state they live in, including the ability to take time off to care for sick spouse. This announcement comes nearly a year after the Supreme Court struck down a key portion of the Defense of Marriage Act.

Meantime, a major church in the headlines news today. In a landmark decision, the U.S. Presbyterian Church has voted to change its definition of marriage allowing everyone to get married, including same-sex couples within the church. Marriage in the church will now be defined as quote, "between two people" instead of quote, "between a man and a woman".

Joining us to discuss, Daniel Burke, editor of our belief blog here at CNN. Thank you for being with us, sir, we appreciate it.

DANIEL BURKE, EDITOR OF CNN BELIEF BLOG: Absolutely.

HARLOW: Give me a sense of what this means. I mean can gay and lesbian couples go into the Presbyterian Church today and get married? Does this kick in right away?

BURKE: Not today. But very, very soon. In fact as soon as they wrap up their big meeting in Detroit on Saturday, Presbyterian churches will be permitted to marry gay and lesbian couples. The change on defining marriage as between two people rather than a man and a woman will take a little longer. It actually has to be approved by these regional church bodies which have a year to approve.

But in terms of marriage, you may be hearing wedding bells at a Presbyterian Church near you very, very soon.

HARLOW: Wow. What are LGBT groups saying about this? And also I wonder about opposition. Has there been a big vocal opposition to this? I frankly hadn't read about this possibly coming down the pipeline until it happened.

BURKER: Sure. Yes, it happened very quickly to be sure although momentum had been building for a number of years. The proponents of gay marriage are really excited about this. The Presbyterian Church is a pretty big church. 1.8 million members, more than 10,000 congregations across the country. It's a big historic denomination with deep roots in America. Princeton University, for example was founded by a Presbyterian. Conservatives on the other hand are really chagrinned. A number of them have already left the denomination for more conservative churches in recent years because the Presbyterians allowed gay and lesbian ministers. And more have threatened to leave because of this vote.

HARLOW: What do you think this means (inaudible) in terms of moving the needle for other churches? Do you believe that this is one in what is going to be a string of other churches following suit? Obviously all of them are not going to. Or do you think that this is an anomaly?

BURKE: Well, when you look at this kind of big map of religious groups, you definitely see more and more accepting same-sex marriage. On the other hand, the big churches in the United States, the Catholic Church, the Southern Baptists, they're kind of digging in their heels on same-sex marriage.

In fact the Catholic Church, we've heard Pope Francis say his famous comment, "Who am I to judge gay people?" The Catholic Church hasn't budged at all on its doctrine with regard to same-sex marriage. In fact the Archbishop of San Francisco, led a rally for traditional marriage in Washington yesterday just as the Presbyterians were voting

HARLOW: Appreciate the expertise on this -- really interesting development. Daniel Burke, thanks so much.

BURKE: Thank you.

HARLOW: Still to come here in the NEWSROOM, an injury to a star player could impact the U.S./Portugal match on Sunday at the World Cup. Lara Baldesarra is in Brazil with that. Hi, Lara.

LARA BALDESARRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Poppy. Yes, I will have the very latest on what those injuries could mean and how the location of this match will play a very crucial role.

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HARLOW: Can the U.S. Soccer team keep the magic going in Brazil on Sunday? That is a big question. We certainly hope they can. The Americans will face Portugal without top striker, Jozy Altidore. He injured his hamstring in the opening game against Ghana which, of course, we won. And then there's the issue of Clint Dempsey's broken nose. Will that affect his breathing on Sunday?

Joining me to talk about all of it and more, from Brazil Lara Baldesarra. You know what -- it's not about how hot it is there although it is very hot. It's also about the humidity, right, for this game. They are moving into the middle of the rain forest.

BALDESARRA: This is a location -- Manaus -- it is right in the middle of the rain forest Poppy. This is a place that when people announced that there would be a game or games held here during the World Cup, everybody kind of scratched their heads and said, "Are you serious?" This is not a good idea. Everybody was outraged because the humidity is just so high. It just makes walking in this area that difficult. It just feels so

heavy, a lot of people describe the type of humidity there as almost feeling like you are suffocating. Or you're really -- it's very hard for you to breathe.

Now, you mentioned Clint Dempsey and his broken nose. In fact, he can only breathe out of one nostril right now because of that broken nose. So add that and the humidity together, it's going to be very difficult for this guy to get the necessary oxygen into his body that he definitely needs. So clearly this is a game for the U.S. that they were hoping to avoid.

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BALDESARRA: The U.S. faces Portugal in Manaus. That's the only location in the Amazon rainforest which means not just playing in the high heat which averages 88 degrees Fahrenheit in June but playing in the deep humidity which can make it feel hard to breathe for any one let alone a soccer player running for 90 minutes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's probably similar to Houston, Dallas, Midwest, East Coast in the summer, so hopefully when we get there, it won't be as shocking as it has been to some other teams.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the heat plays for both teams, so you can just wash that out.

BALDESARRA: Either way, it will be a physically grueling match for both teams with fitness levels and conditioning certain to play a role on which side has the edge.

Now for the U.S., they will have to do without a key player, Jozy Altidore who is out with a hamstring injury. It's a pretty big loss as Altidore was expected to be the goal scorer.

He had just broken out of his scoring drought and hit his form and U.S. boss Jurgen Klinsmann had very high expectations for his striker.

JURGEN KLINSMANN, COACH, U.S. SOCCER TEAM: We still have to hope that Jozy will be back. How quickly -- that is down to his healing process.

BALDESARRA: So now without Altidore the U.S. will depend on Aron Johannsson or Chris Wondolowski to put the U.S. on the score sheet. No matter which striker Klinsmann chooses, defense will be key. Cristiano Ronaldo is expected to play for Portugal despite dealing with a knee injury. Ronaldo is Ronaldo and this guy, he can score from anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lose the ball and the next thing you know it's in the back of your net. That's how dangerous he is. So we're going to have to be aware of him at all times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're trying to go out against Portugal and win that game. And then we don't have to think about anything.

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BALDESARRA: Now, let me just clarify that last statement just a touch. If Germany beats Ghana, that's the other match in this group, if Germany beats Ghana, then the USA beating Portugal in their match would mean that the USA would secure progression into the knockout stages of this world cup. So Poppy that's what we're looking for, for the USA. First Germany needs to win and then the U.S. can beat Portugal and they are through -- they're safe.

HARLOW: We cannot wait and I love seeing how excited people, your work in the U.S. are getting about the World Cup this year. It is about time.

Lara Baldesarra, covering the World Cup for us from Brazil, thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me. Happy Friday. Have a great weekend, everyone.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM with the one and only Don Lemon begins after a quick break.

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