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Benghazi Terror Suspect Pleads Not Guilty; Obama Battles Second Term Stumbles; Obama Says Washington Is Preoccupied With "Phony Scandals"; Does Criticism Come with Job as President; Do Obama Scandals Give Republicans an Advantage in Elections; Is Obama Presidency Already Over in Terms of Major Legislation? Does 1960s Hold for Obama, Future Presidents?

Aired June 28, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

RANDI KAYE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, you are in the CNN NEWSROOM, I'm Randi Kaye in today for Don Lemon. In just a few minutes, we'll tackle a problem presidents have had for years. They fight for re- election. They win the White House. Then they get bogged down by political paralysis or even scandal. For President Obama it is Benghazi and the V.A. and the IRS, and the disastrous rollout of ObamaCare. Can he get anything done? Or are we all doomed to two more years of bickering inside the beltway.

We will tackle all of that in just a moment. But first in a federal courtroom in Washington, a short time ago, a Libyan terror suspect pleaded not guilty to charges that he called the shots in the attack they killed four Americans in Benghazi, including the U.S. ambassador. Things are moving quickly for Ahmed Abu Khattala. He arrived in U.S. soil just this morning after a slow journey across the Atlantic on board a U.S. navy ship while he was questioned by FBI agents.

CNN justice reporter Evan Perez was inside the courtroom and he watched the formal indictment happen. Evan, so how did it go down?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Randi, it was a very surreal scene. He came in, he was wearing a gray two-piece track suit, he wore the same beard and long hair that we've seen in photographs previously, he was very subdued, he didn't speak much. He only said his name when spoken to by the judge. And looked around the room very quietly and then gave his attention only to the judge as the judge explained his right. The government explained that in addition to the one charge that they filed today in the indictment, which is material support of terrorism, they do plan to file additional charges which could possibly bring the federal death penalty here in Washington.

We also learned some new details today. The government, the FBI was interrogating him as you know, for the last two weeks aboard the USS New York, as it made its way across the Atlantic. We're told that Abu Khattala was advised of his Miranda rights last week, and that he continued to provide information to interrogators. And that's important, because that's one of the controversial issues that arises about bringing Abu Khattala and terrorism suspects here to federal court in the United States. As you know, there's criticism from republican lawmakers that he should go before a military commission perhaps in Guantanamo or somewhere else -- Randi. KAYE: So, what is the single charge of providing material support to

terrorists carry, I mean, punishment wise if he is convicted on just this?

PEREZ: Well, the single charge that he is facing right now under the indictment that was returned is, could bring a life sentence. Now, this is a bit of strategy by the government. They did not want to provide all the information that they have from the FBI investigation, a nearly two-year FBI investigation that they've already collected on Abu Khattala. And other suspects in the Benghazi attacks. So, what they're doing is, they have got this one single bare bones charge, later on, they will add these additional charges which include murder and other things that place him at the scene of the diplomatic compounds that were attacked on September 11th at 2012 -- Randi.

KAYE: All right. Evan Perez inside the courtroom there, as it was happening. Thank you. Paul Callan, CNN legal analyst is also here to discuss all of this. All right. So, in terms of what we just heard from Evan that happened in there, I'm curious, who as far as you know, I mean, who is defending Abu Khattala and what type of support is he entitled to get, even from Libya?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, he's being defended as of today by a public defender. In other words, this is appointed council for somebody who doesn't have enough money to hire their own lawyer, and if he doesn't have enough funds to hire a lawyer, the U.S. government will have to fund his defense. In terms of whether Libya would get involved, I would highly doubt that they would offer him any support at all. So, he's going to be pretty much on his own. And no terrorist is going to slip funding to him. So, he's not going to get money for that, you may have U.S. lawyers volunteering saying that he has a right to counsel and they might get involved in representing.

KAYE: Let me ask you about some of the evidence against him. Because some of it was gathered that we've been able to find out, CNN was able to confirm through, you know, phone eavesdropping and surveillance video, but in terms of the eavesdropping, I mean, is that -- how they built their case against him. Would something like that be able to be used in the U.S. courtroom?

CALLAN: You know, the law is not very clear in this area. Now where he a U.S. citizen, and if they were investigating him in the United States, it would be crystal clear, you would need a warrant before you could wiretap. But this is a war zone, and we don't know what kind of war tapping was involved, was it part of a military operation? Was it approved by the Libyan government? All of these things would be looked at by an American court to determine the reliability of the evidence. So, I don't think it's clear that this is going to be ruled out just because they didn't get a federal warrant. And by the way, they might even have a federal warrant, we don't know at this point.

KAYE: Right. Right. What about all the interviews he gave. I mean, he sort of you know, if you will, paraded himself out, you know, for some of the journalists, he was interviewed by CNN Arwa Damon. He said that he didn't participate in the attacks? Can those interviews be used as part of the case as well? CALLAN: Yes, they can. A lot of people are surprised about this

because everybody is well, he didn't get his Miranda warnings, so you can't use it. In truth, if you're dumb enough to be interviewed publicly, anything you say can be used against you. So, that will not be a problem.

KAYE: And what about his defense team. I mean, will they object? You know, he was on that navy ship for quite some time being questioned. Will they object to that long term questioning?

CALLAN: Yes, they will. And this is, you know, they're going to be talking about. When I say them and the prosecutors going to say, this is the public safety exception which allows questioning without Miranda warnings. And now, this has expanded in a big way since we've been prosecuting terrorism cases. But the courts haven't clearly come down on how long you can interrogate without Mirandas and by the way, there are some reports that he was given his Miranda warnings and he wanted to talk. Remember, this guy is a big talker, so it may not be a big problem.

KAYE: All right. Paul Callan, I appreciate your expertise as always, thank you.

CALLAN: Thank you.

KAYE: There's been a lot of movement on the battle front in Iraq today with a fight moving closer to the capitol. And a renewed push by the army to reclaim lost ground. The Air Force carried out air strikes in the northern city of Mosul where the fighting continues to intensify. And south of Baghdad, Iraqi officials say they've had to call in both air and ground support following deadly clashes with ISIS militants. There are conflicting reports over who is in control of Tikrit but state media say, Iraqi forces have retaken that city. In Anbar province, officials say, Sunni militants have managed to bring down the bridge between Fallujah and Ramadi. Meanwhile, the Kurdish Regional Government has closed crucial border crossings, allowing those most affected by the violence to flee to safety in the semi- autonomous region.

The father who left his toddler son in a hot car for seven hours made a jailhouse call today to his son's funeral. His wife stood up in front of a church full of mourners and defended her husband, before their little boy was laid to rest. Justin Ross Harris charged now with murder and second degree child cruelty, after leaving their 22- month-old son Cooper in the hot car where he died. Harris has pleaded not guilty, claiming it was an accident. His wife Leanna says, her husband is a wonderful father, she followed her son's casket out of the church still on the phone with her husband. She said, I love you before hanging up.

Soccer analysts are calling this the best world cup in recent memory, and today's match between Brazil and Chile certainly supports that. Tied one-one after regulation play. Brazil prevailed in a penalty shootout that puts the host nation in the quarterfinals. Team USA looking ahead to Tuesday and their match against unbeaten Belgium. The Americans managed to make it out of the group of death, but very, very tough matches lie ahead.

All right. Here's a funny question when you think about it, why would any president want a second term. Clinton had impeachment, Bush had the Katrina fiasco. And President Obama has had one crisis after another it seems. So, why do second term presidents have such a hard time. We'll going to talk about that coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: It is a political condition that seems destined to strike every president who wins re-election. Big problems often unforeseen and unpredicted, some self-inflicted others beyond anyone's control. And we don't have to look far for current examples, now do we. Just this week, against the backdrop of more unaccompanied children crossing the U.S. border, Washington Insiders declared the latest hopes for immigration reform dead until after the fall election. Then there is the VA health care scandal. Disturbing reports that American vets died while waiting to receive medical treatment. And also this week, hearings focused on claims the IRS targeted conservative political groups. But our problems like this always the president's fault? And how can this president or future presidents avoid future second term stumbles.

All right. So, let's get some insights from Professor Julian Zelizer, a Princeton University historian and former Clinton White House chief of staff Mack McLarty. So, Ronald Reagan had Iran-contra, George W. Bush had hurricane Katrina.

Mack, to you first on this, are there specific reasons why presidents seem to stumble in the second term?

MACK MCLARTY, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Second terms have proven to be challenging, there's no question about that. Part of it, it's hard to keep it fresh and renew in a second term after usually winning the first term where there are great hopes ahead and certainly that was a case for President Obama. The real key, I think, Randi is, can a president come back and really finish strong, so to speak as a lame duck? President Clinton did that in many ways with the economy peace in Bosnia. China's succession of WTO. President Reagan did that, with the strong economy as well. We've seen that with Howard Baker's passing, who is able to serve his chief of staff during that period along with Candoberstein (ph).

President Bush did not -- was not able to do that as well, because the economy was down. Although he made some crucial decisions at the end of his second term that I think proved to be correct in terms of the economy. So the key is, tough times right now for the president, approval ratings show that, can he come back after the midterms?

KAYE: And Professor Zelizer, I mean, the second term presidents whose domestic agenda stalled. They often turn to their foreign agenda, but in Obama's case, I mean, he's having some pretty big troubles. You look at Syria, Libya, Iraq right now, what do you make of that?

JULIAN ZELIZER, PROFESSOR, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Yes, obviously, so you think of Ronald Reagan and his great victory in the last part of his presidency is to start to make peace with the Soviet Union and the negotiations of Mikhail Gorbachev. And even Bill Clinton to some degree had success in that last part. Obama doesn't have that option right now, it didn't look like it because things are so messy and so chaotic, that said, if somehow he could take the different pieces of the Middle East and put them together in some kind of order, I think that would be a pretty big accomplishment, especially since he started in 2008 with Iraq as a central problem.

KAYE: That would be a win for him.

ZELIZER: Absolutely. Absolutely. But we're a long way from that, given what's going on in the news.

KAYE: Yes. It certainly sounds that way. Mack, what role does a hostile Congress play in this picture? I mean, if they don't want to play, somehow, is it the President's fault?

MCLARTY: Well, you framed the piece just right Randi, in my view. Some things are beyond any president's ability, he has to deal with circumstances. But a difficult Congress certainly is a major factor, and there is without a doubt a loss of trust and the ability to really communicate and get things done with this Congress. My judgment, unfortunately, we're not going to see that change very much before the midterms. We'll have to see after it's over, as I know over here. But there is no doubt that a hostile Congress can magnify and amplify these problems and challenges that any president inevitably faces.

KAYE: Yes, certainly. Did you want to add one final thing?

MCLARTY: Yes, I mean, Congress has the power to obstruct, it has the power to investigate, and the opponents in that second term use all the powers at their disposal, because the election is no longer on the table. So, that's where they center their attention.

KAYE: All right. Julian and Mack, stay with us. Because next up, can President Obama fix this? Immigration, energy policy, tax reform, issues that need attention. But can the President tackle them or are we looking at two more years of gridlock in Washington.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: We are talking about American presidents and their second term struggles. I'm joined by historian Julian Zelizer and former Clinton White House chief of staff Mack McLarty. President Obama was in the Midwest this week, and he seemed to imply that a lot of his current struggles in D.C. aren't really legitimate issues. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sometimes the news that's coming out, these are just Washington fights. They're fabricated issues that are phony scandals that are generated. It's all geared towards the next election or ginning up a base. It's not on the level.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KAYE: All right. So, you both heard that. Mack McLarty, are the fights going on in Washington really just phony scandals as the President says?

MCLARTY: The President makes some fair points but I'm afraid that both the IRS issues, everybody deals with the IRS and usually doesn't have particularly a favorable view toward them fairly or unfairly. The V.A. scandal or the V.A. controversy that affects our veterans that we have so much respect for and gratitude for. Those are real issues that people can identify and understand. So I think they are issues. Now, have they been put in a partisan framework or lens? Yes, I definitely think they have. And that's unfortunate.

KAYE: Professor Zelizer, I mean, every president seems to hit a wall in their second term. Does lame duck status, I mean, does it seem to be starting even sooner rather than ever?

ZELIZER: Well, to some extent. I mean, as soon as the re-election is over, it seems like the problems set in. Given the length of the election cycle now, it seems like the other party, the opposition is running the minute, you know, the second inauguration takes place, that said, second terms have always been difficult. The FDR had a very difficult second term, after he was re-elected in a landslide in 1936. This is part of our political system, and the great presidents figure out ways to achieve goals, even in this very contentious part of the environment.

KAYE: Do you think that can happen here?

ZELIZER: It could. You know, with Ronald Reagan who we discussed, no one expected the breakthrough of the Soviet Union. With President Clinton, no one expected him to end with the kind of popularity that he did, or the deficit reduction deal that he did. And some would say, President George W. Bush had some of his biggest accomplishments from the tarp program to the Iraqi surge, at the very end of his presidency where things seemed worse. So, it can happen, and we shouldn't count that up.

KAYE: Mack, what is the best way to prevent or overcome this second term stagnation. I mean, do you bring in a new team to start the new term? I mean, should a president be willing to cut deals and compromise with Congress?

MCLARTY: I think Professor Zelizer made some right, some very good points. I really think the other dynamic Randi is not to change teams here, I think he's already had some fresh people in the administration including John Podesta who was chief of staff to President Clinton during his last two years. So, John clearly has some experience in that regard. But I think the one other dynamic at play here, the republican Congress ratings are lower than the presidents. The overall Congress are. So I think there's real incentive on the other side to cooperate these last two years, I'm paying a little bit of a hopeful scenario, but to get things done, and that's what I'm very much hope we'll see, and a change in that dynamic, as already noted. Other presidents have finished strong so to speak in their last two years in office, and I think President Obama has a real opportunity to do that. I hope we can accomplish it.

KAYE: Professor, do you think that we just -- I mean, here we are talking about a lame duck presidency. But do you think we focus too much on a president's legacy?

ZELIZER: No, that is what is important in the end, you know, we look back at presidents for their legislation, what they leave behind for whether they leave popular or unpopular, so it is important, it's on a president's mind at this point, as you hear with remakes, just as you heard from President Obama, but that said, you know, what's going to be the legacy is very hard to tell at this point, it's unclear how we're even going to evaluate this president down the line, it's a very vague way to judge what's going on. Ultimately, what we have to look for are legislative accomplishments and diplomatic breakthroughs in the next couple of years.

KAYE: And Mack, you were in the Clinton White House. I mean, how much does the president pay attention to this, how much does the president care about so-called lame duck status and the legacy?

MCLARTY: Well, I think legacy is on any president's mind. I don't think he can become obsessed with that or totally focused on it. President Clinton certainly did not. But I think at the end of the day, presidents are generally judged by peace and prosperity, in this case, peace and security after 9/11. And that's the real hallmarks I think of any president. And I think this president will be judged that way as well, obviously, the first African-American president is historic. The affordable health care act, universal health care, major historic legislation. But still, at the end of the day, it's the Ronald Reagan question, are you better off now than when I started eight years ago?

KAYE: Yes. Good question, certainly. Mack McLarty, Julian Zelizer, nice to chat with you both, thank you so much.

MCLARTY: Thank you.

ZELIZER: Thank you.

KAYE: President Obama's not the first person in the oval office to have these problems, but does he have himself to blame? That's the question, or is he making the right moves, only to have them backfire. That's coming up.

In the Los Angeles public schools, nearly one in five kids drops out before graduation. This week, CNN hero is Keren Taylor who is helping teenage girls in L.A. find their voice and their future.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I blossom with each pen mark.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found myself in the words.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every girl has a story to tell. KEREN TAYLOR, CNN HERO: Some of our girls are facing some of the greatest challenges teenagers could ever face -- pregnancy, incarceration, violence in their family, at school. Those girls need a mentor. They need to be inspired about their own voice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Life in the light can be so bright. Nothing can be so pure.

TAYLOR: Writing in self-expression can give them a tool for moving forward.

Say something that nobody else has said before. Because you have your own way of saying things.

TAYLOR: We matched underserved girls with professional women writers for mentoring and group workshops.

I want to match you, Christa, with Christie.

The moment you ask a young person, tell me about something you're passionate about, they are writing and the ideas just flow.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know what you're going to read today.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was kind of scared - like I'm really quiet, and I keep to myself, but Emily -- and she's so excited and enthusiastic about writing. I absolutely love her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Writing gave me that position in life like I'm grown, I have a story to tell.

TAYLOR: Their senses are deluded by the sparkling things across their eye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need to help girls see that their voiced matters.

TAYLOR: And he's got a lot of good stuff here, and what I like to hear more is about you.

To give a girl tools to be able to be positive and thrive and rise above whatever challenges she's facing, what's better than that?

UNIDENTIFIED GIRLS: Never underestimate the power of the girls and (INAUDIBLE)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: We are talking politics and presidents this hour, and historical second-term struggles. Many presidents have stumbled after winning re-election, going all the way back to Ronald Reagan and beyond. Now, President Obama is taking hits from every direction, it seems, the IRS scandal, the embarrassing mess involving the Veterans Administration health system, the criticism over Benghazi, Syria and Iraq. So, is it all his fault or were problems like these inevitable?

CNN commentators, Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson, are here to talk about this.

Marc, the president taking a lot of criticism. Some of it legitimate. Some of these issues can't be laid at his feet. You have the V.A. They've had problems for years. Does the criticism come with the job?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: These sorts of criticisms come with the job. It tends to be the American people forget about the previous administration's snafus, errors, bumps in the road once the next president comes in. During a Bush administration, a Clinton administration, or a Reagan administration, there were bumps, scandals. There were times where people were calling for impeachment. There were roadblocks in Congress. I think this president faces a unique set of challenges, some of which he's the author of. The healthcare.gov website is something that was preventable. But if you look at the IRS scandal, Benghazi, Iraq, these are problems he inherited.

KAYE: Ben, no one seems to have any good answers for what's happening in Iraq. Can you say this is President Obama's fault or may this be an aftershock of something George W. Bush left behind?

BEN FERGUSON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR (voice-over): I think one of the things that's so funny, they run to say they're going to change things and do things in their own way, and they have their own plan in Iraq, Afghanistan, the V.A., health care. That's why Obama ran for president. He said, I can do it better. So for me to say he's going to go back and blame Bush, we're talking we're almost six years in. He's been re-elected after an entire term. And to somehow say I got a bad deck, I got dealt a bad hand. You knew the hand you were being dealt. That's why you ran for president. At this point, no, I don't think it's a valid excuse to say, I was dealt this. You chose to run for president. You knew the hand you were being dealt. You knew you were going to be in charge of the V.A., the IRS. I think that's why his approval rating is bad. He keeps saying, we got a bad hand, inherited the war in Iraq. He didn't inherit a bad website. He didn't inherit a corrupt V.A. And he didn't inherit a corrupt IRS.

KAYE: Marc --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: You're making a straw-man argument. Here I began from the premise that some of these things were unforced errors. I said the website was his fault. It would be somewhat absurd and really dishonest to suggest that the president is disconnected from the Bush legacy when it comes to Iraq. He said he was going to draw down troops in Iraq. Don't get me wrong. There are legitimate critiques of Obama's handling or Iraq as well. But it would be foolhardy to suggest that a war George Bush put us in is not -- is not connected to the war Obama is trying to get us out of. That's absurd.

The IRS scandal --

FERGUSON: I'm not saying --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: The IRS scandal. One more thing, Ben. Let me finish this point.

The IRS scandal is a legitimate issue we need to be talking about. I don't disagree with that. And the V.A. scandal is something we need to be talking about. Those are issues not directly connected to the White House. These are things the president should deal with and respond to. But they're no more connected to the president than many of the things that Bush or Clinton or the other Bush or Reagan dealt with in their presidencies.

FERGUSON: And I would say this. I still think it goes back to this leadership. When you have one of these issues, you have a V.A. scandal, you have to show leadership and deal with it, whether it be immigration right now and the issues we're having with young people coming across the border, the IRS scandal and the fact that they're claiming there's all these lost hard drives randomly of every people whose e-mails we need to access. He's not acceptable to the American public. And the IRS should never be run in a way that is for political gain for anyone. And I think that's one reason why his --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: But how is that the president's responsibility?

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: But how is that the president's responsibility? The president didn't erase anyone's hard drive. He didn't delay reporting this information to the government. This is an IRS issue. And despite people trying to force --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But here's the thing --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: There's no evidence --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: All right, just --

FERGUSON: This is the issue I think is concerning so many Democrats right now, you can't always say, I'm not in charge of that. You're the president of America. You're in charge of all of it. And when you see --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: No, you're not in charge of everything, Ben.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: That's not true.

FERGUSON: You have to extend it to the IRS. He's in charge of the IRS. He has the ability to fire people if he really wanted to and he's choosing not to, the same way he did with healthcare.gov. He's choosing not to fire people.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Let me get Marc in here.

HILL: Two things. The president is in charge of certain departments and branches, obviously, and it's his responsibility to not just fire people, but to investigate, exercise prudence, and actually fix the problem. Healthcare.gov got fixed because he didn't throw everybody out. He actually addressed the problem. But there's also a Congress. There's also a Supreme Court. Those two branches have also played an obstructive role in the president's progress and the nation's progress.

KAYE: All right. All right.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Marc, Ben, stick around.

President Obama may not be doing himself any favors, but there's something else he's up against --- Congress -- with a Republican-led House of Representatives that can smell blood. Are lawmakers using these scandals to score points back home? We'll talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, SMERCONISH: Hi, I'm Michael Smerconish.

On Monday, we're going to learn exactly how much the families affected by the G.M. ignition switch are going to be compensated. Today, I have the first television interview with the G.M. whistleblower who has come forward to say the culture of looking the other way at the auto giant dates very far back and the ignition switches are only one of the many potential problems.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL MCALEER, G.M. WHISTLEBLOWER: If that had been corrected in '98, if we had done a thorough check of all our procedures and found out how safety defects were getting through, none of this would have happened. And it's pretty simple.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SMERCONISH: We have a great program for you today. I hope you're going to join us -- Randi?

KAYE: Thank you, Michael. Hear more of what that whistleblower had to say. That's on "Smerconish" at the top of the hour, right here CNN 6:00 p.m. eastern time.

All right, we're talking with CNN commentators, Ben Ferguson and Marc Lamont Hill.

Ben, it's nice to see you. We got you there on Skype. We felt like Marc had a little bit of an advantage there without being able to see your face.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Right. You always do.

HILL: That's right.

KAYE: Let's focus more on President Obama and the scandals swirling around his administration.

Ben, members of Congress have to run for re-election this year. The president does not. Have these scandals given Obama critics a golden opportunity to score some political points back home?

FERGUSON (on camera): Sure, no doubt about it, you're going to see a midterm about it. There's not a lot of Democrats jumping out there and looking to have the president come in and get on stage with him and put their arm around him, because they know he's a liability. And so when you do feel -- and people feel the country's not heading in the right direction and they can't trust the administration, they can't trust the IRS, it's very hard to turn that around after six years when you've been in charge. That's why you see the vulnerability by many Democrats right now. They're not out there talking about healthcare.gov. Now a lot of Democrats are in a tough spot right now.

KAYE: Marc?

HILL: I think Ben's overstating the case a little. There are many Democrats that will stand next to President Obama when it makes sense. This isn't the like 2008 when no one stood next to George W. Bush. I think it will be a mixed bag.

But Ben is right about something, and that is this IRS scandal doesn't look good, it doesn't smell good, and it makes people feel less and less trusting of the government, all branches of government. The Congress has a low approval rating. The White House has a low approval rating. In light of that, things are bad. And the Democrats have to respond to this. If not, they're going to be in some trouble.

KAYE: You have President Obama mentioning yesterday what you called these phony scandals back in Washington.

Marc, which ones do you think he was referring to?

HILL: Well, I think he would say all of them. You know, but I think where he's right is --

(LAUGHTER)

-- I think Benghazi is something that we have tried desperately to turn into this who done it, when we know it's an awful tragedy where mistakes were made, but it's not scandal. The IRS thing, particularly this hard drive situation looks bad, is it a scandal? Perhaps. Someone's definitely lying here, I can tell you that for sure. The V.A. thing is messy, but it warrants further investigation. It's not a White House scandal. I think we have to separate what's a scandal and what's not. It still requires the president to respond.

FERGUSON: It's kind of -- it goes back to -- you know, when kids say, "The dog ate my homework," it's not an acceptable excuse. And when Obama says they're phony scandals, their IRS is being used to target Tea Party groups. The V.A. had people on the list, looking like they're receiving care when, in fact, they were on a death list and many of them died, when you have the IRS who now comes out and claim they can't find the hard drive, and to say that they're phony scandals, I think actually hurts the president even more, instead of saying, look, we had a couple bad issues in Washington, my job is to fix it, I'm going to take ownership of that, I know people aren't happy, I hear how unhappy they are, this is my job and I'm going to do it.

(LAUGHTER)

That's what the president --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Oh, Ben.

FERGUSON: I think it shows you're out of touch with America.

HILL: Ben. No, no, no, Ben --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: Marc, hold that thought. Hold that thought and stay with me here.

Because the president is lucky in a way. He'll never face the voters again. But does this mean the next two years will be a whole lot of nothing? Will his agenda be DOA in Congress or can he flip the script? That is ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Welcome back. We've talked about the political gridlock in Washington, how we got to this point and who's to blame. Underlying all of these questions is this: Is the Obama presidency already over? By that, I mean has this president given up pushing any major legislation to solve pressing issues like immigration or tax reform? A recent CNN/ORC poll found his favorability rating stands at 47 percent. That is just a point higher than his predecessor, George W. Bush.

A few days ago, Mr. Obama sounded like a man glad to be away from Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I've been really looking forward to getting out of D.C.

(LAUGHTER)

But I've always been looking forward to spending a couple days here in the Twin Cities. Our agenda is still a little loose. I might pop in for some ice cream or visit a small business. I don't know. I'm just going to make it up as I go along.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAYE: CNN commentators, Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill, are back.

So, Marc, he's out buying ice cream. He has to make it up as he goes along. Meantime, his domestic agenda seems to consist of issuing executive orders. Is the Obama domestic agenda basically finished?

HILL: That's a great question. I think that the use of executive orders in some ways is a response -- it's obviously a response to the lack of movement in Congress. I think executive orders matter. I think changing policy on the federal level matters. I see that as a part of the domestic agenda.

But if you're talking about a wholesale legislative accomplishment comparable to that of health care, no, it's not going to happen. Some of that is because he doesn't have the political muscle any more. Part of it is because there are Democrats who are seeking to protect their own hides in the next midterm election.

But then there's the next piece of this, which is there's a Congress that's continued to obstruct the president. Immigration reform has not happened for several reasons, but the smallest reason is, because of President Obama, honestly, because it hasn't moved through Congress. They haven't agreed to the details --

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: Do you remember when Barack Obama -- last I remember, I'm pretty sure he had the House and the Senate, a supermajority, when he became president. And the Democrats chose then --

LAMONT HILL: Six years ago.

FERGUSON: -- not to do anything on immigration reform when the president ran on doing something on immigration reform. So let's not say that this is all Congress's fault.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean part of it was Democrats chose, when they had the ability to do whatever they wanted to do -- if you remember, they passed Obamacare because they had the supermajority and Democrats could do whatever they wanted to do because they were in charge of every branch they needed. So for now to act like woe is me, poor Mr. President, he still has the Senate --

HILL: No one said that.

FERGUSON: He doesn't have the House, you're right. You have to actually build --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: You need the House to pass legislation.

FERGUSON: Let me finish. Let me finish.

One of the biggest problems the president is having he was able to be so stern and a little bit arrogant early on in his time in Washington because he knew he had the votes. I don't know if he doesn't understand how to actually be a leader when it comes to building relationships. Bill Clinton did an amazing job of that when he was in office, even working with Newt Gingrich, one of our colleagues here at CNN.

KAYE: All right --

FERGUSON: And I think the difference is Obama has got to learn to work with people.

KAYE: Ben, let me let Marc --

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: I am stunned. First of all, the idea to say that Barack Obama's problem is he hasn't been able to work with people, if anything, he's been too conciliatory to Republicans, whether it's the fiscal cliff, whether it's the debt ceiling, whether it's missile shields in Russia. We can go around the globe and see the ways in which the president, if anything, has overestimated Republicans' good nature and willingness to actually operate in good faith. I don't think that's the problem. You're right. The president did have a relative supermajority during the first couple of years of his office.

(CROSSTALK)

FERGUSON: But he didn't --

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Let me finish. Let me finish.

KAYE: Let Marc finish.

HILL: To pass health care, which was the most significant legislative accomplishment maybe of the last 50 to 60 years, probably since the Voting Rights Act. (CROSSTALK)

KAYE: ALL right, Marc.

HILL: But let me say one quick thing here. If the president had used all this muscle to pass a bunch of stuff, then we would say and he was a fascist and a dictator and wasn't --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: All right.

(CROSSTALK)

KAYE: All right, we've got to go, guys. Don't go anywhere though.

We expect our president to keep the economy humming, keep the government working, keep us safe and, in his spare time, keep other countries safe as well. So is it all too much for one man? Could our expectations be out of whack? We'll tackle that one, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAYE: Tonight, catch up on CNN's original series "The Sixties" with a special five-hour marathon, "The War in Vietnam" and the "Long March to Freedom." That starts about an hour from now at 7:00 p.m. eastern here on CNN.

The 1960s could hold lessons for President Obama or any future president. Back then, President Lyndon Johnson pushed big changes in social policy at a time when the nation was divided. He also faced big security challenges overseas and big decisions about the use of the American military.

So let's bring back Marc Lamont Hill and Ben Ferguson to talk about this.

Ben, everything now seems so much bigger than it was in the '60s, the size of the government and arguably the diversity of security changes that we face as a nation. It all seems like so much more for one person to do. Do we expect too much, do you think, from the office of the president, Ben?

FERGUSON: No, I don't. It's because the way our government is set up. It is designed to have a single head who is in charge. The same way many companies have CEOs. But they also have boards. He has the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He has his cabinet members who are in charge of each sector of the government. Do I think it's a tough job? I do think some of it is. We have more access to the president. We have more access to congressmen and Senators. That's a good thing. At the same time, there's so much time with the job now spent playing defense with both parties on both sides, and that's good and bad. But I don't think it's too much for one man at all. And I think if we had more than one in charge, it would be a total disaster if that's what we had in this country. It would not work very well at all.

KAYE: Marc, what do you think? Too much for one person?

HILL: Yeah. I think it's not too much for one man or woman, but I do think that we have to re-imagine the role government plays here. One of the challenges in 2014 versus 1964 is that Congress operates differently. Think how often the filibuster is used right now over the last five years compared to 50 years ago or really over the last 50 years, period. Suddenly, there's far more internal battles. It's much more difficult for a president to advance an agenda. Much more difficult for members of Congress to advance an agenda. That's a problem we need to think about, how should we re-imagine what kind of role does Congress play. I'm not trying to diminish its role.

KAYE: Yeah.

HILL: But just sort of refine its role so it does what it's supposed to do.

KAYE: All right. So really, on this last question, five-second answers, please. Do presidents get too much credit for what goes right?

Ben, five seconds?

FERGUSON: Yes, I do think so sometimes.

KAYE: Wow. You did it.

HILL: Only Republicans.

(LAUGHTER)

KAYE: Marc, what about you?

HILL: I said only Republicans get too much credit.

KAYE: Oh. I didn't hear you.

(LAUGHTER)

HILL: I kid. I kid. Yeah, they do. They do.

(LAUGHTER)

KAYE: That's pretty funny.

All right, guys, thanks for hanging with me this hour. I appreciate it. It was fun.

Ben Ferguson, Marc Lamont Hill, nice to see you both.

I'm Randi Kaye, in New York. Thanks so much for watching and spending your afternoon with me.

"SMERCONISH" is next, followed by "THE SIXTIES" marathon, right here on CNN.