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Malaysia Airlines Flight Crashes in Ukraine

Aired July 17, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's take a -- let's take kind of a look back now at all we know at the top of the hour.

Thank you very much for joining us. It is 3:00 here on the East Coast of the United States. We are following breaking news this hour. Right now, it is 10:00 p.m. in Ukraine, where earlier today, the horrifying scene was captured on camera, the moment a passenger jet falls from the sky, exploding on impact, a tragedy, without a doubt. But was it an accident?

Right now, it appears very likely this plane may have been intentionally shot down over Eastern Ukraine. We don't know for sure. There's a lot we don't know. Here's what we know right now. This was Malaysia Airlines flight, a Boeing 777 traveling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia, on board, 295 people, 280 of them passengers, 15 of them crew members. There are reports Americans were among the passengers.

President Obama commenting on that a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Obviously, the world is watching reports of a downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border. And it looks like it may be a terrible tragedy. Right now, we're working to determine whether there were American citizens on board. That is our first priority.

And I have directed my national security team to stay in close contact with the Ukrainian government. The United States will offer any assistance we can to help determine what happened and why.

And, as a country, our thoughts and prayers are with all the families of the passengers, wherever they call home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: The president making no mention of the back-and-forth going on right now between Ukraine and Russia, the Ukrainian president calling this a terrorist act.

Of course, we should also point out that, on this day in 1996, TWA Flight 800 crashed into the water off the coast of Long Island in the United States. Those inside the Interior Ministry in Ukraine claiming this plane was shot down by pro-Russian separatists using a Russian- made missile system, specifically a Buk, which you're looking at right now, a truck-mounted system capable of hitting a target 70,000 feet up.

This passenger jet was at a cruising altitude of some 32,000 feet. CNN is on the ground in Ukraine, of course.

Let's go live to journalist Victoria Butenko in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, and let's go also with Tom Foreman with a closer look at what unfolded.

Victoria, what's the latest you're hearing now from Kiev? And we just lost Victoria. We will get her back shortly.

But let's go to Tom Foreman with a closer look at what unfolded today -- Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.

We have been looking all day at this Buk anti-aircraft system or anti- missile system, as it is called out there. We don't know that this is what was used. What we're looking here is simply the capability of the system, if, in fact, it could accomplish such a thing.

If you look at the flight pattern, which we have talking about so much here, Anderson, you see that it came right across the country, as we have discussed, wound up down here before it went down. Let me put it onto a more normal map so you can see a little bit more of what we're talking about.

That puts the crash site down in this area, and this is Russia all over here. All of the green out here, this is all Russia. So you're getting quite close to Russian territory, about 18 miles away from where the plane went down. That's within range.

But also it could be within the area, because this is what we're talking about when we refer to the Buk system. It is highly mobile, operated by four people. It has four ready-to-launch missiles on top of it. It's quite fast.

From the time that this thing is rolling to the time that it can stop and be ready to fire is five minutes or less. The radar acquisition, target acquisition system can find a target and fire a missile in about 22 seconds. So this thing can be moving very quickly, can fire fast and can be gone fast.

So no matter where this came from, if, in fact, it was a missile, the launcher could now be very, very far from where it all happened. Let's talk a little bit more about the missiles up on top there. There are many different configurations for the Buk. But if they're using the 9M317 missiles, which are common, each one is about 16 feet long. Each one weighs about 1,500 pounds, carries a 154-pound warhead, so that's high explosive, 154 pounds. That's extraordinary.

And all it has to do is get close to the plane. It can't actually impact its target, but it could just get close to a plane if you use one of these and then this blows up with tremendous force. And this is really important note here. Look at the speed of this, 2,684 miles an hour. That's around three times the speed of sound. That is unbelievably

fast, a missile streaking through the sky like that. When you compare it to a plane like this, which is flying along at maybe around, let's say 600 miles an hour, you can see that not only could a missile like that be guided in, because it is guided the whole way, to a plane like this, but it could come in so quickly, truly nobody on board, including the crew, might have any idea it's coming.

The truth is, if this is what happened, if this is the system, this plane could have been hit and nobody on board would have the slightest idea, Anderson, that it was headed their way. And we do know from that map we showed earlier it all is happening in a region over here, this has been a highly contested region where pro-Russian separatists have been at work.

This is where you have your crash site somewhere in here. This is the Crimea down here. So it's right in the hot zone. And certainly these weapons are capable. One last note, Anderson, I want to throw in here. We talk about the fact the Russians certainly have these systems. We know they have the Buk systems. And they could reach across the border.

We speculate as to whether or not the separatists have such systems. But we do have to, in all fairness, note that Ukraine has been a very important partner with Russia for many, many years in developing missile systems. And despite some difficulties in the late '90s, their missile system is still robust here, their production, their technology, their knowledge.

So the Ukrainians also have such systems. It's not like they would be incapable of this. That's why we have to be so careful right now about deciding if it was a missile and if so who fired it, Anderson?

COOPER: Yes. Tom Foreman, I appreciate that update, some fascinating details about the Buk system.

I want to go to our Christiane Amanpour, who is joining us from London.

Christiane, obviously, there is the human tragedy of this, and, you know, and our thoughts and well-wishes and prayers are with the families of the 295 people on board, some of whom are probably watching right now, trying to get as much information as they can, because we know in a situation like this, it's very hard for these families sometimes to get information directly from the airlines in the early stages of something like this.

But there are also strategic considerations, military considerations, geopolitical considerations in all of this. This is potentially a game-changing situation for the conflict in Eastern Ukraine.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I would absolutely say it is.

And to that point, we have just seen Dmitry Medvedev, the Russian prime minister, has posted on his Facebook, on his site condolences to all those who have been killed and all of their families, calling it a terrible tragedy, making no allusions as to what happened or how it happened, but nonetheless very quick to post condolences.

But let's now, Anderson, talk now about what we do actually know. Over the last several weeks, there has been a pattern of aircraft downed in that very region, June 14, a Ukrainian transport military plane down, Ukraine accusing and mentioning that two other planes, this week, were downed.

And I had a lengthy, lengthy conversation with Ukraine's foreign minister on my program yesterday, who told me that over the last several weeks, there has been no letup in the Russian control of the border, in other words, of Russians allowing fighters and materiel to come from Russia into Ukraine. He specifically mentioned not just mercenaries, but tank and anti-air missiles, as he called them.

So this has actually been going on and it's not just Ukraine which is saying that. It's also Europe. The chief European leader who has been spearheading the move to confront the Russians over Crimea and the continued destabilization in Eastern Ukraine is German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

And just yesterday, she said that they are considering more sanctions on Russia, because they have not met -- Vladimir Putin, despite his promises to all those leaders at D-Day, which we all broadcast live, has not met his promise to stop the flow of weapons and fighters across the border, to stop destabilizing that area, has not met the promise to have a contact group for peace negotiations.

And the foreign minister of Ukraine was very clear on what hasn't happened and therefore the escalation of tensions, the escalation of weaponry, heavy weaponry coming into Eastern Ukraine over the last several days and weeks, Anderson.

COOPER: And we have seen that, certainly, and also kind of the growth of Russian forces, Christiane, on the border, more than 10,000 said to be there after a period in which it appeared that Russian forces had kind of dwindled in number. They seem to be rebuilding those forces.

AMANPOUR: That, plus the fact that the international community, President Obama, Chancellor Merkel, the new Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, who was overwhelmingly elected at the end of may, have wanted to have peace talks with the separatists.

President Poroshenko had thought that he had President Putin's support and acquiescence on that. There was meant to be a so-called contact group which involved the Russians and other nations to try to bring this conflict to an end.

And that has produced no result. The foreign minister spoke with the head of the Russian -- sort of the Russian part of all of this over the last couple days and said that we need to get these talks back on track, because no matter what the evidence turns out to be over what happened to this Malaysian Airline flight, there have been these planes downed regularly over the last three or four weeks in that area. Plus, this fight is still going on. And there is no tangible evidence

of Russia doing anything to stop it, despite President Putin's public calls for a peaceful settlement. So there is a double game being played over there, and it is now an incredibly dangerous one. And obviously, as you said, if this does prove to be the worst-case scenario, it is a massive game-changer in terms of this conflict.

COOPER: We should point out, Christiane, that there have been improvements by Ukrainian military forces in their capabilities against separatist groups. Early on, certainly we saw in Crimea and elsewhere kind of an inability by Ukrainian forces really to defend themselves or to kind of hold on to territory.

That seems to have shifted under the new president. They do seem to have -- whether it's fighting spirit or just more experienced forces, they have made some gains on the ground against separatist groups.

AMANPOUR: Well, yes, indeed, they did in the Slavyansk region, for instance, a couple weeks and they did go in and they took back that area.

But then the separatists moved down to Donetsk and sort of regrouped and held out there are still holding out there. And this is now what the Ukrainian government wants to try to solve peacefully.

I asked specifically the foreign minister about whether there was going to be an escalation of their so-called counteroffensive, so- called anti-terrorist moves in that region. He said, we don't want to do that. We want to resolve this peacefully. He said we are even ready to hold video conferences to have peace talks with those separatists if they refuse to meet with us right now.

So even before this plane was brought down, that's -- I see you want to go to live -- yes.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Yes, Ukraine government spokesman is talking. Let's just listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

PAVLO KLIMKIN, UKRAINIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): ... to establish the links of those -- of the militants, links of the militants with the Russian Federation.

In English (INAUDIBLE) European (INAUDIBLE) starting with condolences and providing evidence (INAUDIBLE) secure the service of Ukraine today, making public.

We are providing to all international media, to all people, to all relatives people who lost their relatives, family members in these (INAUDIBLE) crime in Donetsk (INAUDIBLE) we are providing those recorded phone calls where two officers, two military officers of Russia, GRU, the minister of defense, discussing. One is reporting and one is receiving the report involved the shot-down of the plane over the territory of Ukraine in Donetsk (INAUDIBLE) exactly at 4:20 p.m.

One officer, Russian officer, who is reporting is a terrorist (INAUDIBLE) GRU, Russian Federation. And the person who is -- who received the phone call is Colonel Garani Basili (ph), Basili (ph), also the Russian GRU officer.

We are also providing to all media, international media a Russian cell phone number used by Colonel Garani (ph) while he was receiving the report from Besler (ph).

We also are providing the intercepted and recorded phone calls where terrorists are discussing to -- discussing to each other that they arrived to the place where the plane shot down, that they were recognized that the plane is civilian. And they also discuss that there are many, a great number of casualties on the scene, on the site or where the plane crashed down.

We, Ukrainian government, will continue to investigate this criminal case, not terrorist, criminal case, which was conducted and committed again by those. Two of them, I established that this conversation, at least documented phone calls, GRU officers of Russian Federation.

Again, let me express deep and sincere condolences to all people who lost their dearest, dearest members of their families. Thank you very much.

COOPER: Spokesman -- it's a spokesman for the Ukrainian -- spokesman for the Ukrainian government there.

I want to go to Noah Sneider, who is an American freelance journalist who I'm told is actually on site.

Noah, if you're there, exactly -- you're here with Richard Quest on CNN. Where are you exactly?

NOAH SNEIDER, JOURNALIST: We are in the village a little ways north of The city called Torez. It's kind of a long, long road and a big wide field where the debris and the wreckage from the plane is kind of splayed out.

And there's still emergency service crews working, but it's getting pretty dark, so folks are trying to wrap up for the day.

COOPER: Who is in control of the site and what are you seeing?

SNEIDER: The site is controlled very clearly by the separatists, DNR, Donetsk People's Republic, forces. There's some rebels kind of down the road.

But I think most people here have been hearing battles with the Ukrainian forces for a few days now who are stationed not far down the road. And, at the moment, I'm not seeing much of anything. It's pretty dark. But when you get here, it's a gruesome scene. There's bodies splayed out through the fields.

People said the plane kind of exploded in the air, and everything rained down in bits and pieces, the plane itself, the people inside.

COOPER: How intact is the debris that you saw earlier? How large are the pieces of debris?

SNEIDER: It's pretty burnt. It's going to be nearly impossible to establish with any certainty what happened here.

There's a few sort of engine rotors, big, huge metal pieces that are still intact. But for the most part, everything is burnt up and charred and scattered over a few kilometers through these fields.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Noah, this is Richard Quest.

Is the debris field, is the site, is it secured in any way or are local people able to get access to it, to get access to the property, to go through what's there?

SNEIDER: I don't think anyone here in the village has even bothered doing that, to be honest.

Most of them are so frightened that they are not coming anywhere near. It's controlled, they're secured, in the sense that there's two sort of nests of rebel fighters at either end of the road. But even they themselves frankly are just in shock. Most people here haven't seen anything like this. As one man said to me, nothing has happened in this village for 30 years, and then suddenly this.

COOPER: How wide a field of debris are we talking about?

SNEIDER: I mean, it's hard to say with certainty, but maybe five kilometers. It's a pretty, pretty wide radius.

And the debris starts kind of up the road. There is a tail fin, and you come a little bit further down, and you see the place where the emergency services crews have set up a base of sorts, some firefighters, some rescue teams.

And they're kind of in the center of where most of it landed. There is a white tent out in the field where they are collecting bodies. But you can kind of wander through these open fields. There is not much of anything. There is a chicken farm nearby, or a chicken factory, as someone said, and then these little sort of Ukrainian villages, dilapidated homes, and not much of anything.

COOPER: So an effort has been made and is being made to collect the remains of those on board?

SNEIDER: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. People are -- rescue teams have been going through the fields for the last few hours, marking where bodies are by tying little white cotton ribbons to sticks.

So, when you walk through the fields, if you see one of those, you know that's where a body is. But there's still a lot. I mean, 295 people on this plane, and I don't think they have found all of them yet. And it's too dark now really to do much more work. So people are trying to figure out at the moment what to do with this site for the night.

Like I said, it's kind of an open field. It's unclear. They don't know what will happen overnight. And it's going to be really difficult for anyone to secure this in a way that would be certain that no one can come in.

QUEST: When you say the rescue workers have been going through the debris and making these marks for where bodies are, where have these rescue workers come from? Are they the separatists?

(CROSSTALK)

SNEIDER: No. They're locals.

These are local men who have stayed and worked despite everything that's happening. Their political persuasions here I think are not -- kind of beside the point. They were called, and they came from pretty much any town that was within range.

And they themselves are kind of stunned and have never seen anything like this. One of the firefighting teams that was putting out the wreckage was driving sort of an old fire truck and the fire hose had holes in it. And so they were trying to put the remains of the flames and there was water spraying everywhere. I don't think they have really had to use it much.

COOPER: Do you know what sort of capabilities they have for caring for the victims of this flight in terms of -- I mean, is there a morgue nearby?

SNEIDER: I don't think there's anyone who survived.

COOPER: No, but, I mean, is there a morgue nearby? Is there -- are they...

(CROSSTALK)

SNEIDER: Yes,.

So there's two towns, two larger cities nearby, one Torez, and one (INAUDIBLE) both of which are effectively rebel-controlled. The morgues are still working, and so the bodies, I presume, will be taken to either the morgues there or to the morgue in Donetsk.

But I don't think any the regional morgues have the capability to handle this number of individuals. When there was the battle for the Donetsk airport I guess over a month ago now, something like 50 people died, and they didn't have space in the morgue for all of them immediately in Donetsk. And Donetsk is the regional capital.

So it's going to be a big question. I don't think it's one that people on the ground here have quite gotten around to resolving.

COOPER: And, obviously, Noah, as you said, these are people taking it upon themselves to try to do what they can to care for the bodies, to sort through this wreckage. Has anyone there expressed any opinions about what happens next in

terms of who should investigate this crash? We have heard through other correspondents, through leadership from separatist groups that they want some sort of international body to investigate. Are you hearing that from anyone on the ground here?

SNEIDER: Yes, I'm hearing that from the separatists, the people in the village. The locals around here I don't think really have much sense of where it could go.

The separatists are saying they want an international commission. They potentially want to send the airplane's black box back to Moscow for investigation. There's actually -- one of the separatist leaders is kind of up the road from me giving a press conference of some sort.

So I think they're going to put out a plan of theirs pretty quickly. I imagine it will be nearly impossible for the Ukrainian authorities to visit this site.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: As far as you know, have they found the black box?

(CROSSTALK)

SNEIDER: They hold the Ukrainians responsible.

COOPER: As far as you know, have they found the black box?

SNEIDER: I can't confirm that one way or the other. I haven't seen it myself.

COOPER: Have they commented on that at all?

SNEIDER: They have been searching for it. I haven't heard anyone say, I have got it.

QUEST: So darkness has now arrived. There is a difficulty in securing the area. And I'm wondering, what happens now? Because, what, it must be sort of late in the evening now, getting late in the evening. What happens over the overnight hours, do you believe?

SNEIDER: I hope there will be an understanding between both sides that there needs to be a night of peace here. They're going to set up a permanent sort of base for rescue teams and for firefighters. But there's not much they can do beyond wait.

QUEST: One point, just to bring out, Anderson, Europe's flight safety body has just closed Eastern Ukrainian airspace.

COOPER: Noah, do you have a sense of how many people are on site, how many people there are trying to cope with this situation?

SNEIDER: Dozens. Dozens, I would say.

The rescue crews -- when I first arrived a couple hours ago, there were two or three fire trucks and then kind of spread out through -- and then clustered in little groups, so I would say dozens of local sort of rescue workers and as it gets darker, more and more rebel fighters have arrived. So now I would say there's dozens of them as well.

But, like I said, it's a pretty big area that we're talking about. So I haven't walked the entire perimeter yet.

COOPER: We have seen images, Noah, of passports, a travel book for Bali. Are people's possessions clearly visible? Are they clearly retrievable? Are they scattered all about?

(CROSSTALK)

SNEIDER: It's visible. They're visible and they're being collected.

That's one of the things that these rescue teams are doing. But as you walk through the fields and you see the bodies, you see a man with his cracked iPhone sticking out of his pocket. You see sort of people's clothing everywhere.

Most of it's kind of ripped off by the air, others from suitcases and stuff in a pile along the road. One fighter was telling us that they had seen lots of headphones. That was the thing they noticed most. People had been flying I guess listening to music or watching movies and so they have been finding lots and lots of pairs of headphones.

COOPER: Have you ever seen anything like this, Noah?

SNEIDER: Not in my life, to be completely honest.

This is beyond -- I mean, I have been in Ukraine now for a few months, and there has been fighting. And you can certainly call it a war, but nothing of this scale has happened. And I think that's -- it's not just -- it's not just the locals. It's not just the fighters. But a lot of the folks coming, the journalists coming, people from outside are kind of stunned.

COOPER: Do you think this will change anything?

SNEIDER: It's tough to say.

It will clearly change things. It's a pretty massive event. But I think it's way too soon to be talking about who actually did this. There is simply too much we don't know and too many possible versions of the story to get into.

Now I think the pressing task is to do right by the people who were on this flight, to have the decency to pause the politics for the moment and collect the bodies and have a proper investigation here.

How it will change, you would have to ask Mr. Putin and Mr. Obama and Mr. Poroshenko and leaders.

COOPER: And, Noah, is an effort being made to collect passports, to collect identity documents? SNEIDER: Yes.

I mean, they're trying to collect everything they can, but first and foremost bodies. I think that's -- and my sense is, that's the rescue crew's number one priority right now, collect as many bodies as they can and gather them under these tents, these gathering points.

Some people are picking up personal effects. Some people are walking straight by them. It's also -- you know, keep in mind, it's kind of -- it's long, long grass and like I said, again, a really wide field. So finding things like passports is a matter of chance.

COOPER: Well, Noah, I appreciate you talking with us. I know this is a horrific scene.

SNEIDER: No, absolutely. Thank you for having me.

COOPER: And I appreciate the way you have handled it and communicated it to our viewers. Thank you very much, Noah Sneider, an American freelance journalist who is on the scene of this crash.

QUEST: One thing to point out from listening to this extraordinary account from Noah, an aircraft crash site is an extremely dangerous, but it's a very complex environment, not only for the debris of the aircraft that needs to be preserved, so you can work out what happened and where on the aircraft, but the preservation of bodies, the respect and dignity that goes with this, the personal effects.

And that is why in most cases, Anderson, you have this almost security zone that goes around it to stop basically do-gooders or well-meaning people from trying to do things that really could hamper an investigation.

Now, I notice the separatists are now talking about a two- to three- day truce in Eastern Ukraine to allow recovery work, to allow international investigators to go in there and do the job, the very tricky job that now needs to be done.