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Ukraine President: Plane Crash Is "Terrorist Action"; Israel Initiates Ground Offensive In Gaza

Aired July 17, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: And I have been in situations where there are large numbers of bodies and I hate to refer to them as bodies because these are men and women and children and families just living their lives. It's for those families listening right now to our coverage, I hope there is some small consolation in hearing from NOAH that there are people on-scene right now who are trying to care with compassion and with tenderness for the victims of this crash who are trying to gather all those who have died together and who are trying to do their best to take care of them as best they can.

We're joined also by a journalist, Victoria Butenko, who is joining us now from Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. Victoria, what are you hearing from are the government there in Kiev?

VICTORIA BUTENKO, JOURNALIST: Well, one of the most disturbing statements we hear is actually from the locals in Donetsk who say that neither emergency services nor law enforcement agencies have access to the site. The territory where the airplane crash happen is fully controlled by the separatists and they are afraid this will interfere with finding out the reason and compromise the evidence.

Central government is trying very hard to show how open it is to inviting international investigators working together with both Dutch authorities and Malaysian authorities. And in Kiev, they said the flight did not experience any problems before it lost communication.

COOPER: Victoria, I appreciate your update. We'll no doubt be checking with you throughout the day. We're going to take a short break. We're anticipating hearing from Vice President Joe Biden. We'll bring that to you live. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to continuing coverage of Malaysian flight crashing with 295 people on board. We just heard from a young American freelance journalist, Noah Sneider, on scene at the crash site where it is growing dark. And an extraordinary account of what it's like, the people doing what they can, local people, separatists, trying to gather the bodies of those who have been found. Many still have not been found.

And to echo what I said before the break, for family members of those who may be watching right now. There are people on site right now to do the best they can to care for the bodies of all those on board of this Malaysian Airlines flight, gathering them together, the men, the women, the children, trying to do best they can as darkness falls.

A lot of new information coming in small pieces from our correspondents all around the globe. We want to check with our Jim Sciutto on the response by Russia to what the Ukrainians have said -- Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the response from the Ukrainian officials from very early on, the Ukrainian government has placed blame for this firmly not only on pro- Russian separatists, but also on Russia for supporting and in fact, arming those separatists including with Ukrainian officials say with missiles capable of taking down airplanes.

I've been in touch with the Ukrainian deputy foreign minister and he said that Russia sponsors terrorism. The world must stop Putin and that we hold Putin personally responsible for this. So the Ukrainian government pointing the finger not just at the separatist, not just at the Russian government, but at Putin himself, who has played a double game here saying it wants to deescalate in Ukraine.

But according to both U.S. and Ukrainian officials has been in fact sending arms across the border and Ukrainian officials saying some of those arms and has caused this passenger jet to come down. So in very definitive terms there from Ukraine officials.

COOPER: Obviously, an important piece in this is who is going to lead the investigation, who is going to investigate this crash site. Separatist groups there saying they would like international investigation. Whether or not they would actually allow that remains to be seen.

Our Richard Roth has been monitoring developments at the U.N. He joins us now. Richard, what is the U.N. response in all of this?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the United Kingdom has asked for a Security Council session regarding this Malaysian plane downing. No timing yet given. Of course, if you're going to have an international crisis like, you're going to get the U.N. involved. But what could the impact be of any results at that global institution? That's always open for question.

But you're definitely, according to the British, they would like to have an open meeting with speeches. Ukraine and Russian have been going at it almost to point of diplomatic exhaustion. I believe at least an estimated 18 or 19 meetings at the Security Council or General Assembly combined regarding the subject and it's done nothing really to slow the combat.

The Russian ambassador at the United Nations, the other day introduced the language he wanted the council to approve, warning the world of how destabilizing Ukraine was making the situation about other members of the Security Council have so far blocked any movement on that saying the Russians are not making a balanced presentation.

And that's usually the way that's been going for months with each side blaming the other. As you know, we've had Ukraine government officials who have made their case at the Security Council and as long as Russia, a permanent member of the Security Council has veto power, there's really been little traction regarding any concrete agreement on the diplomatic front -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Richard, appreciate the developments there. Christiana Amanpour is monitoring events out of London with us tonight. Christiane, again, just extraordinary to hear from Noah Sneider on the scene of this crash. Really, I mean, obviously focusing on the human tragedy that has taken place. There are many aspects to what is going on.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely right. It was an extraordinary eyewitness account of the carnage that is there on that open field and although he said that, you know, villagers or whoever they might be are trying to do their best for these victims. As Victoria said, this is a crime scene and it has to be preserved and it's come down in the heart of those suspected of those taken the plane down.

This is really serious and the international community if it wants to it find out what happened, needs to figure out how to get independent investigators there as quickly as possible. And as you've heard and as we've broadcast, the Ukrainian government spokesman who was saying that they had intercepted conversations they claim between Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists and members of Russia's military intelligence service.

And then conversations between two separatists, essentially, talking about this plane coming down, talking about shooting it down and then saying, my goodness, this looks to be a passenger plane. Now for those who remember, nearly 31 years ago, KAL W007 was brought down over the Soviet Union in 1983 and as the Russians denied it. The Soviets, they hid the evidence.

They hid it from the international civil aviation organization. They said it was a military spy plane and of course, it turned out to be a passenger plane. The precedent, the history, what's been happening over the past few days in terms of bringing down Ukrainian flights in that area of East Ukraine are just incredibly damning.

Plus, the international community which is holding Vladimir Putin and the Russian government responsible for not closing that border between Russia and Eastern Ukraine and therefore continuing to allow the free flow of mercenaries, fighters, and heavy weaponry, including anti- craft missiles according to what the foreign minister told me yesterday.

And according to what the international community believes to be going on. This is a major catastrophe that could have very, very, far reaching implications in geo strategic meaning right now.

COOPER: No doubt about that and also the anniversary. There all carrying on the exact day back in July 17, 1996, when TWA Flight 800 was shot down off the coast of Long Island, off New York, killing all on board. We are joined by Retired Brig. General Kevin Ryan. General Ryan, appreciate you being with us. At this point in this investigation, what are the kind of data points that you most want to understand?

BRIG. GENERAL KEVIN RYAN, U.S. ARMY (RETIRED): Well, the first thing to know is that if the aircraft was shot down and if it was flying at its normal cruising level of above 30,000 feet, we're talking about an air defense system like the BUK, which has been mentioned already on your show, SA-11 or bigger. So it's not shoulder-fired. It's not something that one man jumps out of a truck to do.

It's something that's fired by a team and it has to be a team of highly trained air defense personnel. So either that is fired by a national military unit, either Ukrainian or Russian, or it is fired by separatists who have been highly trained in the system and who, by the way, happen to have access to a system, which most separatists and rebels would not have access to. So must have been given to them by some state government.

COOPER: General Ryan, if you would just hold with us, and I want to ask you about this. But I do want to inform our viewers, I've just gotten word that Israel's prime minister has instructed the IDF, the Israeli Defense Forces to begin ground operations in Gaza, not a huge surprise. This has been talked about, anticipated for several days as a bombing campaign, rockets being fired by Hamas militants into Israel, as well as Israeli forces firing into targets throughout Gaza City and throughout Gaza.

Christiane Amanpour is also joining us again from London. Obviously Christiane, this is a major development for the region and obviously an extraordinarily dangerous development, ground operations in Gaza by Israeli Defense Forces, very, very tricky in the close quarters you find in Gaza City.

AMANPOUR: Well, Anderson, this is potentially just incredible to behold. This is the third time in about six or so years or maybe more that there have been these incursions by air or by ground into Gaza. And each and every one of them has ended up with unconscionable number of people being killed and then a ceasefire or some kind of cessation of hostilities that never ends actually end the fundamental crisis.

And therefore keeps leading to further crisis and now with the world's attention going to be focused on this plane, this is the time when everybody has to be paying attention also to that conflict and trying their best to mediate some kind of cessation. We have heard that they have all sorts of plans possibly they may implement now as' ground offensive.

Including if the government says it has to do this, the military has said if they want to really root out what we call terrorists, this is not a week's or one-month operation, this is a many, many, many month operation that involves also practically taking control of the Gaza strip again. So everybody has to understand what this in fact does mean.

COOPER: I want to check in with our Wolf Blitzer, who joined us now live from Jerusalem. Obviously, Wolf, a major escalation now in this conflict. WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": There is now a formal statement from the Israel Defense Force, Anderson, saying that the Israelis have decided to go in on the ground into Gaza. Let me read a couple of sentences for you. Following ten days of Hamas attacks by land, air, and sea, and after repeated rejections of offers to de- escalate the situation, the Israel Defense Forces has initiated a ground operation within the Gaza strip.

The statement then says, "The IDF's objective as defined by the Israeli government is to establish a reality in which Israeli residents can live in safety and security without continued indiscriminate terror while striking a significant blow to Hamas' terror infrastructure.

It then goes into great detail which units of the Israeli military will be involved in this operation. It looks based on what I'm reading from this official statement from the IDF, Anderson, it looks like virtually all aspects of the IDF are going to be involved, infantry, armored core, engineer core, artillery, intelligence, combined with aerial and naval support.

The effort will also be supported it says by the Israeli Security Agency and other intelligence organization. So what so many of us had anticipated over the past ten days is now about to happen. Israel moving in on the ground into Gaza. And as you know, in the past 10 days, the Israeli military have activated, they mobilized about 50,000 troops, reservists who were doing their regular jobs, spending time with their family over the past 10 days.

They were activated. Most of them went to units, maybe not close to the border, but units where others, regular soldiers, regular military personnel could move then to the south towards Gaza. And now this operation will not only be from the air and the sea, which it has been, but will now be deliberately by the Israeli cabinet on the ground. A huge development unfolding between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

COOPER: And Wolf, as you know, we have all spent time in Gaza City. It operating on ground there for these Israeli military units is going to be very, very tricky, very, very dangerous.

BLITZER: Of course. There is going to be a lot of casualties, a lot of Palestinian casualties, they'll go after Hamas targets, but there will be inevitably be civilians, women and children and elderly, who will be caught in the fire. You know, about 1.8 million people live in this tiny little Gaza strip. So it's one of the most concentrated areas in the world. So there will be plenty of civilian casualties presumably.

Although the statement that the IDF just issued they say in the face of Hamas' tactics to leverage civilian casualties in pursuit of its terrorist goals, the IDF will continue in its unprecedented efforts to limit civilian harm. There will also be Israeli casualties and the public is gearing up for that.

Israeli ground troops going in. They'll be subject to sniper fire and other activities. So there will be Israeli casualties. So far one Israeli has died in this operation. More than 200 Palestinians in Gaza have died, but I suspect those numbers are about to go up. As the cabinet, the security cabinet we just met, the cabinet let by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

They have concluded that Israel has to go in and they are about to go in. And even as we speak, Anderson, they're probably on the ground right now.

COOPER: Do we have a sense of the time table for this operation before actually going in? We know they have been amassing troops along the border there.

BLITZER: Yes, well, the statements says has initiated a ground operation within the Gaza strip. So I suspect they have already moved in. Let's see how quickly those tanks, armor personnel carriers. I've been here a week, maybe more, Anderson. The races Israelis have no desire to reoccupy the strip. They have gave up the Gaza strip. They want to destroy as much of Hamas' military capability as they can.

And then leave, basically, and try to crush as much of Hamas as they possibly can. That's the operation. That's goal. We'll see how that's achieve if in fact it is achieved. But this represents a whole new venture. The Israelis no longer striking from the air and from sea, but how moving in as we speak right now, moving into Gaza.

COOPER: In terms of rockets today or military action today, what's been going on, Wolf?

BLITZER: Well, they had that temporary U.N.-sponsored truce that is humanitarian cease fire that they -- that both sides basically honored, but as soon as that was over, it was not only business as usual, it was even more intense, more Palestinian rockets and missiles coming into Israel. The iron dome working to try to destroy those that jeopardized major cities or anything along those lines, sensitive areas if those missiles were going into some open area farmland or whatever, they wouldn't bother.

But it was going towards a populated center, they clearly would. The Israelis upping the ante. We heard earlier in the day that it was the most intense Israeli activity they had spotted over the past ten days. So clearly even in advance of word that the Israelis have made a decision to go in on the ground, the situation had been heating up dramatically and so that's where we stand right now.

I suspect diplomats from around the world will be trying to get some sort of cease fire. I also suspect the Israelis will try to destroy as much of Hamas's military capability in the coming hours and days as they can before there might be some sort of cease fire. So this represents a whole new chapter in this current crisis.

COOPER: Wolf, do you have a sense of how prepared the IDF is for an operation like this? I was embedded with IDF forces I think it was 2006 going into Southern Lebanon and they ran into, you know, much more extreme circumstances than they had probably anticipated. I remember being on a mission that was supposed to be two hours ended up being some 14 or 15 hours, slow going, very difficult operation, a lot of booby traps and concern about IEDs. Is the IDF ready for this?

BLITZER: The IDF, I think they're pretty aware of the potential for danger and they've had some nasty, pretty ugly experiences. Remember all the experiences in Lebanon where Israel went in thinking it was going to be relatively, relatively smooth, relatively quick and turned out to be much more difficult when they were fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon.

A lot of us remember covering that encounter. The Israelis eventually left. It was a major, major problem for Israel. It was not as easy as some of the military planners had assumed it was going to be. They go into this, military planners told me over the past few days with their eyes wide open. They know this is difficult terrain, heavily populated area.

They've appealed to the Palestinians to evacuate, especially from the northern part of Gaza. They said get out as quickly as you can. Here's the problem though. There's not a whole lot of places those Palestinians can go. They can go south to Gaza city. That's not that safe either as we saw what happened to the four little boys on the beach in Gaza city.

So many Palestinians have evacuated, have left, they fled to other parts of Gaza. They can't come into Israel unless they have a foreign passport. They can't go into Egypt and can't go on boats into the Mediterranean because that is area has been blockaded as well as by the Israelis. They're stuck there, those Palestinians. Unless they can find some safe place someplace else, there's going to be significant casualties.

COOPER: We're monitoring the situation. You see a live shot from the Gaza City. Obviously, Wolf, tomorrow is Friday. It's a day when many people go to mosque. It's a day of prayers. It will be interesting to see how that factors into the Israeli operation on the ground.

BLITZER: Yes. Well, I suspect the fact that it's Friday, which is the Muslim holy day, Saturday the Jewish Sabbath, I suspect that's not going to be relevant right now. This is for all practical purposes, this is a war that's going on. And as much holy days are holy days, there's an operation that's under way, I suspect the Israelis want to try to the achieve their military goals as quickly as they possibly can.

As a result, the fact that it's Friday, the fact that it's Saturday or for Christian Sunday, I think that's going to be basically irrelevant right now. This is a new phase in this military operation and the Israelis decided to move in. What they keep saying, by the way, Anderson, the Hamas has a lot of the blame themselves.

Because when that six-hour Egyptian brokered ceasefire, the Israelis honored it for six hours although Hamas never kept firing missiles into Israel at which point the Israelis said if you don't want to do it that way, we'll continue to up the ante. Earlier today they had a few hours of respite. Palestinians could get out of their homes, do shopping, prepare. The Israelis are moving in. No more cease fires for now. Let's see what the reaction is from the United Nations, from Egypt which has been working very hard to achieve a cease-fire. Let's see what the U.S., the Obama administration is going to do. There are going to be a lot of hectic phone calls going on around the world right now.

COOPER: I want to go to our Ben Wedeman in Gaza City. I want to correct something I said regard diagnose the plane crash. I said today was are the anniversary of TWA flight crashing off the coast of Long Island in 1996. I believe I said it was shot down. The government said it was a center fuel tank explosion so I apologize for misspeaking about that anniversary.

Ben Wedeman is joining us now on the phone in Gaza City and Ben, what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What are your thoughts on word that -- any statement from Hamas yet?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes, Anderson. We actually just got the order to evacuate our hotel, which is on the Gaza Coast. That was after some fairly heavy bombardment of the Gaza seaport by Israeli boats offshore. And we are now headed away from the coastline. Apparently that entire area is now unsafe.

Certainly what we've seen this evening, Anderson, is the most intense Israeli bombardment I've seen in the last ten days. Tank fire, artillery fire, fire from ships at sea, air strikes, definitely sort along the entire border, but actually focused on the northern part of Gaza. But what we're seeing is just strikes from the far south, far north at the moment. Anderson?

COOPER: Ben, you have been there before when there have been ground operations by Israel. You've seen what it's like. Explain the difficulties, the dangers that lay ahead.

WEDEMAN: Well, the dangers are that as soon as Israeli ground forces enter and they are very heavy little armed, there's a tendency for huge destruction of houses and huge loss of life. When I was here in 2009, their entire areas of Gaza, of northern Gaza that were utterly destroyed, house after house after house. And multiple examples of civilian casualties who people caught in the fighting.

The problem is, and I think we've stressed this time and time again on our air, that there's really nowhere to hide in Gaza. The Israelis have been sending out these robocalls, dropping leaflets, telling people to go to Gaza City, for instance. As we've seen time and time again, there's strike all over the place.

So for instance, this afternoon, we saw an air strike on a building right next to our office three children were killed in that instance. And, of course, yesterday, there was that incidence where four people were killed in Gaza city, not the outlying areas where people have been told to evacuate. Gaza is bracing for a very, very bad night tonight. And as we were waiting for our car to get us out of the area down by the coast it.

Ordinary people were coming up and saying what's going on, what's going on? Should we take our children? Should we go, should we flee? So there's a sort of air of panic. Another thing, a lot of power is off in most of Gaza city. Those lucky enough to have generators have some light. For the most part, the city is pitch black -- Anderson.

COOPER: So it's nearly 11:00 at night there. Are you seeing people on the street? Where do people try to flee to?

WEDEMAN: Well, they try to flee inland away from it because clearly a lot of the focus of the bombardment has been on the coastline. So they try to move further inland to really the center of the city where they're hoping to be safe. But as I said, they're striking in the centers of the city, as well. We saw this afternoon. In fact, we had our cameras aimed on that House where the three children were kill this had afternoon because a warning shot had been fired. We focused our cameras and within ten minutes, that rocket hit the house. So there's really nowhere to go to, even though people know that will certain areas like the coastline, like any area near the Israeli border dangerous -- Anderson.

COOPER: Ben, stay with us. I want to the happened over to Jake Tapper's show "THE LEAD" starts right now.