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Malaysia Crash; Crash Investigation; U.S. Demands End; Flares Light Sky over Gaza
Aired July 18, 2014 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. I want to welcome viewers from the United States and around the world.
This is the unthinkable story of this passenger plane shot out of the sky at 32,000 feet up in the air, apparently, by the surface-to-air missile. The president of the United States speaking a short time ago saying at least one American was killed, Quinn Lucas Schwansman (ph), a Dutch and American duel national.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This was a global tragedy. An Asian airliner was destroyed in European skies filled with citizens from many countries. So there has to be a credible international investigation into what happened. The U.N. Security Council has endorsed this investigation and we will hold all its members, including Russia, to their word.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: President Obama today very, very careful with his words. Still no one is taking responsibility, but the U.S. now believes it may have been pro-Russian rebels and the evidence against them is growing.
I want to show you something. CNN has obtained this video, which according to Ukraine's interior ministry shows this Buk anti-aircraft launcher, here it goes, responsible for shooting down the Malaysian jetliner. And we've highlighted it for you. So it's just rumbling through the streets. The missile off this thing, about the size of a phone pole.
Now, Ukrainian officials citing this video here as evidence. They say they are moving the launcher back to Russia to cover up their tracks.
And then there's this, this intercepted phone call purportedly between pro-Russian militants before the plane was shut down appears to bolster the suspicion. I want you to listen as they talk about delivering this Buk missile.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Listening to you (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Where do we have to upload this (INAUDIBLE)? (INAUDIBLE)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which one? This one?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Buryac. Yes, yes, that one which I delivered. I am already in Donetsk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this what I am thinking about? (EXPLETIVE DELETED)? M? that one?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes, Buk, Buk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is she on the truck?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Buryac. Yes she is on there. We need to unload her somewhere to hide it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: And it gets even more suspicious. Just a short time after that jet was shot down, another call was intercepted and we'll play this for you as these rebels realize this was not a Ukrainian military plane at all.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAJOR (ph) (through translator): Well, we are 100 percent sure that it was a civilian plane.
GREK (ph): Are there a lot of people?
MAJOR: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). The debris was falling straight into the yards.
GREK: What plane is that?
MAJOR: I haven't figured out yet. I haven't got close to the main wreckage. Now I'm nearby the place where first bodies started falling.
Here are remnants of internal brackets, chairs, bodies.
GREK: Are there any weapons?
MAJOR: Nothing at all. Civilian belongings, medical scraps, towels, toilet paper.
GREK: Are there any documents?
MAJOR: Yes. One belonging to a student from Indonesia. From Thompson university.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Let's bring in Phil Black. He is in eastern Ukraine. He's on his way to this crash site, joins me on the phone.
Phil, a lot to talk to you about. First of all, we're getting these reports that actually, just to
further emphasize the tense situation in this region, that gunshots are being fired in the air near these European investigators at the site. What are you hearing about that?
PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes. So these are servants (ph) from the organization of the security and cooperation in Europe. They are, we believe, the first international team to get on to the ground at the crash site itself. They've been traveling there through much of the (INAUDIBLE), as we've been doing as well. They said they've been able to inspect about (INAUDIBLE) only a few hundred yards or so of the crash site. And while they were there, some of the pro-Russian rebels were firing their weapons into the air.
We don't know much more than that. We don't know how threatening that behavior was. We don't know precisely what the purpose of it was in itself. Certainly intimidating behavior. And I guess what it really shows, and this is the key point, that this crash site is very firmly within territory that is still controlled by these pro-Russian rebels.
The Ukrainian government is concerned that these pro-Russian rebels may be covering their tracks because the Ukrainian government has accused them point blank really of being responsible for firing the missile. They're now accusing them of trying to move that missile system away and so forth. The international community wants to get an independent team in there as quickly as possible because amid all the talk of blame and responsibility, it comes down to the evidence on the ground. And the sooner people get in there, take - and take a very close look at that before it is contaminated, changed or altered, that's where the proof can come that can substantiate what are, to this point, the claims and allegations that have been made both about the rebels in this area and, to some degree, about the Russian government as well, Brooke.
BALDWIN: So there's the issue of being able to get into the crash scene, as you point out, and finding this evidence, untampered evidence, hopefully. But then, I have to ask you, Phil, about the victims, about the bodies. I understand that there are actually fears that the morgues in this part of eastern Ukraine would simply be overwhelmed because of the sheer number of bodies there. Do we know if all of the human remains are still at this scene?
BLACK: It's a pretty remote area. So, yes, in terms of those morgue- type facility, there's not a lot there (INAUDIBLE) the Ukrainian emergency and the recovery operation that is currently underway including plans to move them, likely to a city in northeastern Ukraine, (INAUDIBLE), in the coming hours and days, we believe. I don't know what sort of progress they've made (INAUDIBLE). We hope to be arriving soon to get a sense of that for ourselves. But they're going to have to start moving that pretty quickly, and they believe that that will be taking place, Brooke.
BALDWIN: You were talking a minute ago also, Phil, about the rebels in this area around the scene. And I just want to show our viewers this picture because we've seen this photo, and I want to share it with you, that has emerged of the self-proclaimed prime minister of this pro-Russian rebel group actually there at the scene. How many, Phil, as we wait for this picture - and, guys, let me know if we have it -- how many -- it's coming. How many are operating in this area, and could this have been those responsible? That's a big question, who shot this down. Might this group have done it?
BLACK: Well, a bit of important context, I guess. This is the last remaining stronghold region, if you like, that is still very firmly under the control of the pro-Russian rebels. They've be driven back significantly from other areas by the Ukrainian military in recent weeks. They now control this area from around the city of Donetsk, east towards the border with Russia. And so this is where they exist, in very concentrated numbers. And we've been coming across them increasingly as we've made our way into this area.
So they are here. They are here in numbers, and the suspicion, very strongly from Kiev, very strongly from the United States and European leaders is that they have continued, throughout this conflict to be supplied, to be supported, both materially in terms of weapons and so forth by Russia, which has allowed weapons, heavy weapons, insiders to continue to come across the border and assist them in their ongoing fight against the Ukrainian military.
So they are definitely here. It's still, I guess, a big question mark over whether or not they definitely had this sort of missile system, because it is a missile system that exists, both within the Ukrainian military itself and with the Russian military on the other side. I don't think that anyone yet has pointed to a piece of intelligence publicly that says this has definitely come from -- come from these pro-Russian rebels and this is where they got it from.
And I guess that is what the effort is now focusing on, increasingly. Although we're hearing increasingly bold statements from western leaders and indeed from Kiev, as well, about the origin of these weapons, the origin of the attack and so forth. There's still a few key missing pieces, but certainly those pro-Russian rebels are in this region. They are in this region in force and they are still considerably well-armed, Brooke.
BALDWIN: It's the who did it, who made the call to do it, where did these -- this missile system come from originally? Phil Black en route to that crash scene. Phil Black, we'll stay in close contact with you. Thank you.
You know, Washington says it is sending two crash investigators, two groups to Ukraine, just for right now. But as we showed you, this crash scene is not itself just compromised, it is potentially dangerous. CNN's Richard Quest joins me. And Bill Savage, he's a former pilot and certified airline accident investigator, he joins me as well.
So, gentlemen -- Bill, let me just begin with you. Just first, is there even a procedure for investigating a scene of this nature, a scene that is in the middle here in eastern Ukraine, in this rebel stronghold, a war zone?
BILL SAVAGE, CNN CERTIFIED AIRLINE ACCIDENT INVESTIGATOR: Well, I would say that the international community, each nation's investigatory group has their procedures for gaining entry to these countries that are requesting it. The problem here is, Ukraine is requesting it, but they are not in control of the territory that is the crash site itself. Plus, the airplane came apart and it spread out all over eastern Ukraine. So it's going to be very difficult to get parties on the scene quickly before the scene can be taken apart by the -- by those responsible for this in order to cover their tracks. It's going to be a very difficult situation.
BALDWIN: And not just -- not just parties, Richard Quest, competent parties, competent investigators at the scene. I mean what technical -
SAVAGE: Well, of course.
BALDWIN: What technical means might be available to try to piece together the real answers, the what the who shot down this plane?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: The most obvious one, of course, is the black boxes, the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder. The rumor and the -- coming from the region is that they have already -
BALDWIN: Russia has them (ph).
QUEST: They have already been located and have been removed to Russia. But that's not been confirmed by any means.
BALDWIN: Right.
QUEST: After that, we're looking at getting qualified investigators, probably from other countries, because they will have the expertise, the French, the Germans, the British, the Americans. They will have the know-how to go in there and know what they're looking for. It's unlikely - it's unlikely but possible that the Ukrainians will have the necessary expertise to deal with that sort of forensic evidence.
And then finally, you have the question, who looks at the investigation? Two investigations. One is criminal, one is aviation. And that, of course, is under the treaty you and I have talked about, the ICAO Treaty, many times. But really we have to put all the treaties to one side. We've got to put all the rules to one side because, Brooke, what the international community wants to know, and wants to be clear about, is that this is going to have integrity --
BALDWIN: Right.
QUEST: And transparency. And there, I'm afraid, you're going to have to bring in external people to make sure that happens.
BALDWIN: Right. That's what we heard again, the president of the United States calling for, hoping for, when it comes to this investigation. But you brought up forensics. So, Bill, let me throw this one to you. When you look at, as you mentioned, you know, the expansive area in which this plane crashed down, and these investigators, hopefully impartial investigators, piecing it all together, looking at the ribs of the plane, the parts, how does one then determine what or how it was shot down?
SAVAGE: Well, there will - there will be evidence in the material itself as to what caused the separations of the different parts of the airplane. And, again, the forensics and expert -- the expertise of the investigators to be able to identify the telltale signs.
Now, that airplane, after being hit, then suffered coming apart in- air, and that has a different characteristic to the investigators.
BALDWIN: How do you mean?
SAVAGE: Not associated with the explosion.
BALDWIN: How do you mean?
SAVAGE: Well, once the aircraft is incapacitated in flight, it begins a fall, and the stresses of gravity and air speed and the stresses being exerted on the fuselage itself will cause parts of the aircraft to depart from the main stay of the airplane. This is why you should - you see wing sections in different locations, tail section in different locations, the engines are in different locations. And all of that will have to be gathered together and then reconstructed and then the investigators will be able to determine which came apart at the explosion site in flight versus in the deterioration of the air frame as it plunged. And again, they will be examining the bodies as well to see what impact in flight the bodies took versus impact with the ground.
BALDWIN: So many bodies, so tragic. Richard Quest and Bill Savage, thank you both.
Just ahead, as we continue our coverage here on this downed plane, all eyes on this man, Vladimir Putin. As the U.S. demands Russia end this war, what does his response say about Russia's role in this crisis?
Also breaking right now, in a different part of the world, word that flares are lighting up the sky over Gaza City as Israel launches a ground war against Hamas. Are we about to see another assault live on the air? Stay with me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: It is a busy, busy Friday here. You are looking at pictures, the skies over Gaza City. Some smoke here. But periodically we've been seeing flashes, flares lighting up the sky over Gaza City as we're watching the situation. We will take you there and tell that story as far as what's developed between Israel and Gaza City and what they're doing as far as Hamas is concerned.
Meantime, though, let's take you to Ukraine and talk about this downed plane because as you just heard, one American was on that flight. We learned that from the president today. But the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations pointed out to our counterparts today the plane was full of world citizens.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SAMANTHA POWER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: As we stared at the passenger list yesterday, we saw next to three of the passengers' names a capital "i." As we now know, the letter "i" stands for infant. To the families and friends of the victims, it is impossible to find words to express our condolences. Those victims came from at least nine different nations. They could just as easily have come from any of ours. We must treat all of them as our own victims. We have a duty to each and every one of those individuals, their families, and their countries to determine why that jet fell out of the sky and to hold the perpetrators accountable. We must stop at nothing to bring those responsible to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Samantha Power there today. Does that mean more nations will join the United States to pressure Russia out of Ukraine, out of Crimea? Joining me now, Michael Weiss, the editor in chief of "The Interpreter" magazine.
Michael Weiss, welcome back to the program.
MICHAEL WEISS, EDITOR IN CHIEF, THE INTERPRETER": Thanks for having me.
BALDWIN: Let's begin with Vladimir Putin because, listen -
WEISS: Yes.
BALDWIN: A lot of people are rushing to blame him. Putin said himself it is Kiev who is to blame. President Obama today very careful with his words -
WEISS: Right.
BALDWIN: But saying Putin has the power to end this. So, indirectly, was that the president placing blame on Putin?
WEISS: Oh, absolutely. Look, Putin's line is so contradictory, it's absurd. He says, I have absolutely nothing to do with what's going on in east Ukraine. These are spontaneous rebel groups that erupted because of the -- in protest to the hunta (ph), the so-called fascists or Nazi hunta (ph) that took power in Kiev. And these are guys who, you know, the world community just has to recognize are expressing their own sovereign will.
Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence today comes out and says this plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile by Russian-controlled separatists in east Ukraine. And meanwhile, if Mr. Putin is correct, right, if he has absolutely nothing to do with it, why is he appointing himself, an interlocketer (ph), a possible peace maker? How -- what kind of leverage could he possibly have over the rebels that he himself proclaims have nothing to do with him?
Meanwhile, I should add, the separatist political leadership, the People's Republic of Donetsk, so-called, they just opened an office in Moscow. The prime minister, Mr. Bodidi (ph), was in Moscow all of last week, doing what, trying to get guarantees from the Kremlin that they would get more heavy material and heavy weaponry. Last week there was a press conference in Donetsk, we translated it on "The Interpreter." It shows one of the separatist leaders, who, by the way, is in one of these intercepts that's just been leaked by the Ukrainian security services, Mr. Egor Besler (ph). He admits that they received tanks and armored - armored vehicles from Russia for the purposes of defending Slavyansk, the city that fell a few days ago. So there is absolutely no plausible deniability here about who's controlling these guys.
BALDWIN: Yes. So, ultimately, whether -- whoever called the shot, where this -- this missile system came from, I mean ultimately if this all traces back to the Kremlin -
WEISS: Right.
BALDWIN: And so far we heard, you know, President Obama, we know he talked on the phone with Putin yesterday morning -
WEISS: Right.
BALDWIN: And he said Putin is not very happy, I believe was the phrase, with the U.S., of sanctions that he continues to violate. How exactly, though, Michael, do you punish Vladimir Putin?
WEISS: OK. Well, look, I don't pretend to be the president of the United States or -- I am sure he has a very difficult decision ahead. Here's what I would do personally. The issue is not - the issue --
BALDWIN: And I don't even - the what -- it could be the west, the west.
WEISS: Right. The issue for me isn't even about sanctions, which so far - I mean the last suite (ph) was good and impressive, but still not sufficient.
BALDWIN: No.
WEISS: The issue to me is about information. Where -- how are the Russians most vulnerable or how is the Kremlin most vulnerable in this entire crisis? They have assets, they have money, they have bank accounts in Europe. They have properties in, you know, the south of France, the Ivory Coast. They have offshore holding companies in Cyprus, the British Virgin Islands.
I've done a lot of work on Russian corruption, OK.
BALDWIN: Huh. OK.
WEISS: I can tell you all the places that they like to hide their money. The first suite (ph) of sanctions that the U.S. passed against Russia, what did - the most interesting bit about all of that was they named Vladimir Putin as having assets in a Swiss commodities trader called Gunvor (ph). OK? Now, Mr. Putin has made a big deal. He's the - you know, he's an ultra-patriot. He's talking about the so-called de- offshoreization, bring Russian money back into Russia. But what is he doing having money in the Swiss commodities trader. I'd pick up the phone and call him and say, look, you've got 48 hours. you can end the war -
BALDWIN: Who has the power to do that, Michael? Who has the (INAUDIBLE) that?
WEISS: The president of the United States does. The U.S. intelligence knows where this stuff is, Brooke.
BALDWIN: Yes.
WEISS: I mean let's not play games here, OK.
BALDWIN: Yes.
WEISS: Pick up the phone, call him, you have 48 hours, pull your guys out of east Ukraine, pull your anti-aircraft systems and your tanks, or it's -- I'll just give a press conference and I'll start naming the bank accounts, the swift transactions, all of the estates and properties that the oligarchs that are loyal to you have stationed in Europe as holding for you in retirement. OK? That's what I would do. That is where the Kremlin is most vulnerable. We've seen it time and again.
So information warfare in this crisis is crucial. And they're using it to a remarkable degree, and we're being very kittenish about how we respond. Notice that it's the Ukrainians leaking conversations between and amongst the separatists. It's not our government. It's not the NSA. And I guarantee you, if the Ukrainians have those conversations on tape, you can imagine what U.S. intelligence has got.
BALDWIN: All right. Well, if it's kittenish now, we could be hearing the roars soon enough.
WEISS: I hope so.
BALDWIN: Michael Weiss, I hope so, as well. Come back, come back, come back. We'll continue the conversation.
WEISS: Any time.
BALDWIN: This story is not going anywhere.
Meantime, breaking right now, we are seeing flares lighting up the sky over Gaza City. Here you go, one, two, three, as Israel launches a ground war against Hamas. Are we about to see another assault live on- air? We are live in Gaza. We will take you there, next.
And some of the most haunting details of this crash in eastern Ukraine. The personal items, the travel guides, the headphones, the passports all found littered throughout this expansive wreckage. I'll talk to a journalist who was there, and who walked through the crash site. Stay here. You're watching special coverage on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BALDWIN: Welcome back. I'm Brooke Baldwin. We will get you back to our special coverage of the Malaysian airliner jet that was shot down.
But right now, I want to get you to this. At this very moment, these explosive flashes have lit up the sky over Gaza City, 9:27 p.m. there. You have Israeli troops swarming the ground, just hours into this tank and troop offensive. CNN's Karl Penhaul is live for us in Gaza City.
And, Karl, you've been watching this above your heads, starting to multiply. What are these flares?
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, right now, Brooke, there is a lot of action going on, especially along Gaza's eastern border with Israel. That is what you see over my shoulder. That is where you see those flares going up in the sky.
Now, those were illumination flares. And if we look at those, that green, eerie, night scope video footage we saw of Israeli troop movements last night, you'll see there that none of them appear to have night vision goggles on. So it could be that they're now putting up these illumination rounds so that the Israeli troops, as they advance forward into Gaza, can see where their targets are, and where they need to push in.
It is certainly an indication, though, that a large troop movement is underway. We did see flares go up last night, but on a fairly restricted part of the border. Now we're seeing this on a much larger stretch of the eastern border, indicating that more troops are coming across that border.
Now, throughout the last hour, hour and a half, we've also been hearing a lot of artillery fire. I can't tell you whether that's from the tanks that are already along that border and also now inside Gaza territory, or if that is perhaps artillery coming out from Israeli field guns. But certainly a lot of fire coming from that direction, as well.
And you may be able to work out on the horizon some of it is obscured by buildings. But there is a red glow on the horizon. That indicates to me that some of this artillery fire has also started fires among the buildings in that eastern part of Gaza.
Now, we were across in that eastern part of Gaza the day before last. And like much of the rest of Gaza, you've got to take some things into account. The whole of the Gaza Strip, well, that's about the size of metropolitan Las Vegas. It is a densely populated area. There are a lot of houses, and very little open space. And so where a lot of that artillery may be falling, where a lot of the air strikes have been going in, is unpopulated areas.