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Russia Separatists Control Crash Site of Downed Malaysian Airliner; Individuals Bumped from Downed Malaysian Flight 17 Interviewed; Putin Pressured to Open Airliner Crash Site to Investigation; Israel Continues Ground Invasion of Gaza

Aired July 19, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Behind me is just part of what is left of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You just hope that none of these children -- or the grandchildren will go before you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You saw next to three of the passengers' names the capital "I." As we now know, the letter "I" stands for infant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's crazy. You don't expect to go into an airplane and get blown out of the sky.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: The pictures are jolting, the information is fluid. We're so glad to have you with us as we walk through this morning.

I'm Christi Paul.

VICTOR BLACKWOOD, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Victor Blackwood. It's 10:00 o'clock here on the East Coast, 7:00 out west. You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And first this morning, of course, the growing international alarm that rebel gunmen are keeping some invesitgators from the crash site, although we know that the OSCE investigators, those monitors, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe -- they are there today. A little more flexibility than they had yesterday, but still --

PAUL: Even though there is a smaller teamm there, of them, but they do seem to have a little more mobility than they did yesterday, it's being reported.

Now Germany is urging Russian President Vladimir Putin to pressure these rebels to let the investigators in even further. Malaysia Airlines issued, too, its latest list of the 298 people from 11 nations who were aboard the flight when it was shot down out of the sky over eastern Ukraine. And most of the passengers come from the Netherlands. There was one American as well. BLACKWELL: International observers at the crash site say they have

been hearing gunfire and also explosions this morning. Witnesses say some human remains put in body bags and put to the side of the road.

PAUL: The Ukrainian government is accusing pro-Russian rebels of removing more than three dozen bodies as well as destroying evidence, they say.

BLACKWELL: And there has been heavy fighting about 60 miles from the field of debris and wreckage there.

PAUL: Chris Cuomo, the co-host of CNN's NEW DAY, joins us now live from the crash site in eastern Ukraine. And Chris, I know that it was a haul for you to get there. It was not easy to get to that crash site. When you got there, what struck you most?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Well, that's hard to answer, Christi, because this is such an unusual situation. You have the obvious tragedy of this plane being taken out of the skies, and everyone onboard gone and laying in the field around us for the most part. But it has happened because of, probably, and in the middle of, an outright civil war.

There's no question about accounts of people hearing gunfire. They have used gunfire here today to move journalists when they don't want them to go beyond a certain point. These are local militias very intent on making a definite show of force, of blaming Ukraine for the tragedy of taking this plane out of the air. The checkpoints show such indications of heavy fire I haven't seen anything like it in quite some time. Trees completely stripped some 40, 50 feet up by big artillery shells, men hiding in these very shallow trenches. They've obviously been anticipating and engaging in very heavy warfare.

So now you have a situation where there's no question that even in the worst of circumstances, Christi and Victor, you expect a certain level of dignity. It's not being met here. Bodies are starting to be collected. Some are still being missed. They're just being put in bags on the side of the road. These are not people -- they're local towns folk, not people who know how to do this. Things like the fuselage behind me, that's the tail section of the plane, there's so much there for investigators to look at and catalogue. And things have been disturbed here. Things have been taken. The bodies are not getting the dignity they deserve. So this is about, s troubled a set of circumstances as you can come upon here.

BLACKWELL: The Ukrainian officials are accusing some of these pro- Russian rebels of tampering with evidence and the bodies there. Are you seeing any of that?

CUOMO: Am I seeing tampering? No. I'm seeing local townsfolk moving bodies, putting them on the side of the road. Does the luggage, do things look as if they've been disturbed? Absolutely. Why? It's almost what you don't see. I've been in, unfortunately, in situations like this before, and you see the trapping of someone's life. You see their purse. You see their wallet. You see their cellphone. You see nothing of anything valuable here right now, Victor, and that's disturbing.

And, you know the men here are very hostile, they're very aggressive. But I have not seen anything take anything and go. You ask them about the black boxes, they say it's not for us to deal with. We don't know anything about the black boxes.

PAUL: I wanted to ask you about the rebels if you had had any exchanges with them. When you say they're aggressive, how aggressively do you think they are trying to, dare I say, protect this area right now?

CUOMO: Well, I wouldn't say "protect." I would say control. And I think it's a difference with a distinction, because, you know, how aggressive. They point weapons that are loaded at you, Christi, and they point it up towards the sky to say, if you don't move back, suggesting they're going to fire. They have fired. There's obviously active fighting going on 150 clicks from here where dozens of people reportedly have been killed. So they're no joke and they want to be taken seriously.

But I'll tell you, when I came here, for me it's not about the civil war. It's important that people know it's still going on. It's important that people understand that this happened as a function of it in all likelihood, and that, you know, there's probably a lot to the suggestion that until Russia makes it unacceptable for this to be going on it will probably continue.

But the first thing that I felt inclined to do here was to just say a simple prayer for the bodies that are here, the lives that were lost and for their families, because they're not receiving the dignity they should. I'm really -- it's acceptable to me that you're not seeing what we're seeing here. Ordinarily I want to show you at home what we're seeing because you can't be here. I don't want you to see this, and I certainly don't want the families of the people involved here to see it, because there is not the dignity there should be in place right now, and there could be, Christi, ant Victor. There could be. They could let the right people in. They couldn't make it a death march to get here, and if they had, things would be done much more quickly than they are.

BLACKWELL: Chris Cuomo, host of CNN's NEW DAY there at the crash site of MH-17. Chris, thank you so much.

PAUL: Thanks, Chris.

And let's talk about this more with experts including CNN aviation analyst Jeff Wise and Miles O'Brien.

BLACKWELL: We're joined by also by Barry Pavel, the vice president and director of the Brent Scowcroft Center on International Security at the Atlantic Council. Barry, first to you. The State Department says this is a game changer in terms of Russian relations. How does this change the game, and in your view, what should be the international response to Russia? Should there be more sanctions? Are sanctions enough? BARRY PAVEL, VICE PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR, BRENT SCOWCROFT CENTER:

I'll take your second question first. I do think the international response will be somewhat heightening sanctions. But let's talk about this game changer issue. I'm not sure people are completely seeing clearly what Putin's worldview is and what's going on here.

Let's think about this weapons system. It takes months of training for it to be used effectively. So there's only two options. Either Russian specialists trained these individuals for six months or it was directly manned by Russian specialists. I think people are confusing terms like "rebels," and it's not really a civil war. This is Russian destabilization of a sovereign country. Putin is likely to continue doing both things. He's likely to continue the destabilization, and he's likely to continue the diplomacy, the appearing nice, appearing lawful. This is, the strategy's going to continue, and I think we're papering things over when we suggest there's rebels or pro-Russian separatists, they're Russian pros, mixed in with the pro-Russians.

PAUL: Miles, I wanted to ask you. We heard from the transport minister in Malaysia earlier today saying there were 75 different airplanes that flew over this route in the two days prior to us taking this route, but a lot of people look at this and say, this is a conflict zone. Why was Ukraine, I'm wondering, allowed to keep this airspace open?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, we should also point out that there were quite a few airlines that scrupulously avoided this area, British Airways and Air France among them, who for months have not flown anywhere near there.

This is an interesting question of who's responsible for the airspace. The airspace was closed from 32,000 feet and below, and technically, Malaysia flying at 33,000 feet, to the letter of the law, was OK to be there.

But as a pilot, I'm going to tell you, I like to always have a fallback position, a way out. And if you're at 33,000 feet, and for some reason you need to descend, because of a decompression or engine loss, or whatever, you're going straight into a no-fly zone. They were right on the margin of safety, anyway, and, on top of that, there have been four or five shoot-downs just in the past month at relatively high altitudes.

So there was all kinds of evidence that this was not a great place to be, and yet there was some sort of apathy that crept into their decision-making process, and, frankly, this is a commercial decision as well. It took, would take them a little bit out of their way and might cause a little more fuel burn over the course of that 12-hour flight. So in the end I think we know it wasn't safe to be there for sure now, but it's not like this should be a surprise. There had been several aircraft shot down in advance of that, and any airline that continued to fly into that airspace knowing all of that was not really flying with safety number one on their list.

BLACKWELL: Jeff what do you expect the impact of this will be moving forward, considering that Miles says that this was in some ways a commercial decision, they were at the edge, I guess, of what you're saying, edge of the safe zone here. Do you expect an expansion of possibly no-fly zones moving forward as it relates to commercial airliners?

JEFF WISE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, clearly going forward, there's going to be a lot more care and attention paid to excluding commercial aircraft from airspace that may be problematic. I mean, I think Miles is absolutely right. Malaysian Airlines chose a route that was just barely outside of a dangerous airspace. And you know, it comes down to money. The British Airways, when they went around Ukraine to avoid any potential problem, it cost them money. They had to go further, they had to burn more fuel.

And we see that, this is an incredible coincidence, that Malaysia lost two 777s. They only had 15, 15 out of total around the world, 19,000 commercial aircraft exist around the world, and 15 of them were Malaysian Airlines 777s. And we lost two in them in the span of four months. That's an incredible coincidence. What ties them together, we don't know, but certainly the unwillingness to spend money that isn't necessary. We saw it in the case of MH-370 that Malaysia had chosen the cheapest Inmarsat package that didn't include geo-location data in their communications, and so that was one of the reasons it was so hard to locate where the plane is, and of course it remains missing to this day.

PAUL: All righty, a dreadful coincidence when all is said and done. Jeff Weiss, Barry, Miles O'Brien, thank you, gentlemen, for being with us, sharing your insights.

BLACKWELL: Thank you all.

Turning now to another major story, the crisis in the Middle East. We're going to go live to Gaza where clashes between Israel and Hamas have now increased along with the death toll and the destruction there.

PAUL: Plus, oh, my goodness, this story and stories of people who were scheduled to be on Malaysian air flight 17, they escaped death.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: Let's go to the Middle East now, where the crisis there seems to grow more desperate by the day. The U.N. now says up to 50,000 people have been displaced inside Gaza. This, of course, is happening as airstrikes from Israel decimate residential buildings and critical city infrastructure there.

PAUL: Here to take a look at some of the photos that are coming into us here and video as well, Israel says its missions are specific, such as this new video which the Israeli military says shows it focusing, or forcing, targeting -- forces, rather, targeting a racket being launched from a home inside Gaza. In the meantime, the death toll inside Gaza, though, is more than 300, and that includes 72 of which are children.

BLACKWELL: Karl Penhaul is in Gaza City right now. Let's go to Karl's report filed just a few minutes ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A soft plea, "daddy, don't leave me." Mahmoud Sod (ph) is only three. He's never picked a fight in his life, so he can't understand why he's being punished. "Just go ahead and tell the world my son was fires rockets at Haifa or Tel Aviv or Jerusalem," his father says, words loaded with irony and anger. Mohammed Sod (ph) says an Israeli missile slammed into their home in eastern Gaza just before dawn. CNN team saw that neighborhood under heavy bombardment as Israel launched its ground invasion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PAUL: And, Karl, sending us such incredible -- you know, pictures and video, and that's one of those things that I think hits you in the gut, when you see three-year-old suffering like that.

BLACKWELL: Still in a diaper.

PAUL: Yes. The thing is, you know, we asked Karl earlier, when people hear that there is going to be a strike, why do they not leave? He said, there is no place for them to go. This is such a small area. What, 26 miles total, I think? And he said the borders are cut off. They have nowhere to go.

BLACKWELL: Yes, and we've heard the reports or claims of people used at human shields. There are also reports that the interior minister there has told people that after Israeli forces, what they're called knock-the-roofs there. They send in the empty shells to let them know that an attack is coming, do not leave, do not leave after they get those flyers because that is psychological warfare.

I think we've got Karl Penhaul up for us now. Karl, we just watched that report with that young boy, that three-year-old, and it really illustrates how the civilians, the children especially, are just caught in the middle of this day after day.

PENHAUL: Yes. I don't think we can state the impact this war is having on civilians. The United Nations says that more than 70 percent of the fatalities and the wounded are civilians. And that's why I wanted to bring you to a place like this. This is a primary school that the United Nations normally operates to educate the Palestinian kids, and now it's being used as a temporary shelter for the people who are being displaced by this war.

Now, this place has 48 classrooms, and they are now full with more than 1,200 people. In some cases, there are 30 and 40 people in a single classroom, multiple families. And the worst thing is they don't know how long they're going to be here. But certainly, since the Israeli ground invasion started two nights ago, numbers here have skyrocketed. Now the United Nations tells us that more than 50,000 Palestinians are staying in centers like these. The numbers have doubled over the last two nights, and that, according to the United Nations, makes it one of the worst humanitarian crises here since the confrontation with Israel in 2008-2009. PAUL: All right, Karl Penhaul for us, thank you so much for bringing

us that look at what's happening inside that school. We appreciate it. And we'll continue obviously, to follow the story throughout the day.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

PAUL: Escaping death, though. This is -- it's almost unbelievable. You have a moment where you kind of catch your breath. A family bumped from doomed flight 17. They were supposed to be on it, and now of course they're so thankful that they did not board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IZZY SIM, BUMPED OFF FLIGHT 17: I'm just thinking, I feel like I've been give an second chance. And so hopefully we'll get there safely, and I will see my family again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLACKWELL: It's 23 minutes after the hour now. There were a few ironic twists connected to Malaysia flight 17 both tragic, some life- saving. We've learned of a family also that lost another person onboard Malaysia flight 370.

PAUL: Can you imagine, losing something on both flights? And also there's this tale of a family that was supposed to have been on MH-17 and got bumped from the flight. Here's CNN's Deb Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If it disappears, this is what it looked like, posting what's believed to be a photo of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 on his Facebook page an hour before takeoff, the Dutch man making a dark joke referring to missing Malaysian airlines flight 37 which vanished from radar in March. His is one of the only known photos by a passenger purportedly of MH flight 17, shot down in rebel-held area of Ukraine. For this MH-17 passenger Mohamed Ali Mohamed Salim, the missing flight was also very much on his mind. Under the hash tag, "feeling a little nervous," he posted video, purported to be the inside of flight 17. Listen as a flight attendant prepares the cabin.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're boarding and we're loading. Once again, to ensure that for the flight --

FEYERICK: Australian Kaylene Mann's story is too much to believe. Still grieving her brother who vanished aboard flight 370, she now lost her stepdaughter on flight 17. And then there's a married couple, both Malaysian Airlines flight attendants. The wife allegedly swapped shifts off missing flight 370 and survived, but her husband swapped shifts on to flight 17. Sadly he died along with the 297 other passengers and crew. But there are other would-be passengers who are counting their blessings today, thanks to a chance decision or a twist of fate, that kept them off the doomed flight.

SIM: I was thinking, I feel I've been give an second chance, and so hopefully that I will get there safely and I will see my family again.

FEYERICK: Izzy Sim, her husband and baby were bumped off the full flight.

SIM: I'm feeling physically sick. I was, like, from the Hilton coming to the airport in the taxi, I was just crying.

FEYERICK: Also supposed to be on flight 17, Juan Jovel and his bride. After a five-and-a-half week honeymoon they switched flights to return to work without jetlag.

JUAN JOVEL: Feeling lucky, but at the same time, my heart bleeds for these families that expecting their loved ones to come home.

FEYERICK: Stories of improbable loss and improbable survival. Each one resonates because each one reminds us how fine the line is between what was, and what might have been.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: There have been reports this morning of explosions and gunfire near the crash site. We're going to go back live. Our CNN's Chris Cuomo is there this morning. We're going to take you back to the scene where this plane crashed after being shot out of the sky.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAUL: It's 29 minutes past the hour right now. So glad to have your company this morning. Thank you. I'm Christi Paul.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. We continue our coverage now of that crashed Malaysian jet and the reports rebel gunmen are keeping investigators, at least some of them, from the crash site of flight 17.

PAUL: Meanwhile, Germany is urging Russia President Vladimir Putin to pressure the rebels to let the investigators in. Malaysian Airlines has just issued its latest list of the 298 people from 11 nations who were onboard the flight when it crashed. Most of the passengers we know came from the Netherlands. There was one American onboard as well.

BLACKWELL: International observers at the crash site say they have been hearing gunfire, explosions this morning, and witnesses say some human remains are being put into body bags and moved to the side of the road.

PAUL: The Ukrainian government is accusing pro-Russian rebels of removing more than three dozen bodies and destroying evidence.

BLACKWELL: Let's bring back Chris Cuomo, the co-host of CNN's NEW DAY. He's live there from the crash scene in eastern Ukraine.

PAUL: Chris, I know we spoke to you about half an hour ago, but what have you noticed on the ground there in the last half hour?

CUOMO: Well, there's just such a tragic set of circumstances here, beside what we're all trying to deal with, which is processing the victims here and finding out what brought this plane out of the sky.

There's this show of force. Because there's such rabid ongoing conflict, there's a big influence on the part of this local militia, or separatists, or whatever you want to term them, to show force. So they'll come out with guns and raise their weapons in the air. And then they'll be joking and want photographers to take their pictures in front of the fuselage. And it's really disturbing because the dignity of those who lost their lives here, it's just -- the situation deserves better. It could be better.

And I know that we have so many levels of reporting going on right now, why this may have happened and the politics of it, and who Russia says did it and the U.S. and Ukraine. That will all continue until you get dispositive answers that come from pieces of evidence like that. That part of the tale tells an entire story to a trained investigator. It doesn't mean much to me. I know what a body looks like. I know who's being disrespected. There are bags on the side of the road. Victor was absolutely correct about that. They can do better than that. It's very dangerous to get here, but they could be much more hospitable in letting people in. And it's just not going on.

BLACKWELL: As you mentioned the bodies there in bags on the side of the road, do we know what will happen with those bodies after that?

CUOMO: We were actually holding up last night at a place called Kharkiv which is a few hours away from here. We have been told bodies would be taken there to are identified. Victor, as you know, and Christi, because you know this is our job, you have to know how to do that. I'm not going relate what we are seeing here, but I promise you, not just anybody can say what it is they're looking at after something like this.

And so we don't know what they're doing with them, and they are not in the mood to take questions. All they want to do is tell you, go where I tell you to go. Ukraine did this. And, why are you so upset about this tragedy and not the one that's happening to us at the hands of Kiev every day? That's what they're saying. And I get where their coming from. This is an ongoing conflict. There's no question that there's literally violence as we speak somewhere in this region. But this situation demands better and it's really horrible that it's being drawn out this way.

PAUL: You speak of the dignity, and I'm sure families are watching this closely, and it's just stomach turning. But why do you think, Chris, they are holding off investigators so much but they're allowing people to come in and take pictures? And correct me if I'm wrong. I think you said the villagers and local people are the ones collecting these bodies right now. Yes? CUOMO: Yes, Christi that is my understanding. We just interviewed a

couple's minors, and they had volunteered. They'd been asked to, who knows if they felt they could say no, but they've been walking around in this field looking for bodies, putting them in the bags and carrying them back to the side of the road.

Why are they acting this way? They're in an active state of conflict. They're fighting over their territory. For them they feel they're in a fight for their lives. I think you're dealing with, frankly, a lack of sophistication and an overabundance of macho with these guys. They're much more important to being perceived as powerful than being perceived as competent in conducting an investigation and protecting the dignity of the lives that were lost here despite that the irony that they may be in the circle of suspicion of why this happened.

So I think there are a lot of reason, and none of them are good, for why they want this place theirs and be in control, but none of acceptable. And until a message is sent to the men on the ground that they're not in control, that they have to conduct themselves differently, it will not change from what it is.

BLACKWELL: Chris Cuomo there, giving us a look and a description, although we cannot see some of it, and we probably shouldn't broadcast it, what is happening there in that field in eastern Ukraine. Chris, thank you so much.

PAUL: Thank you, Chris, very much.

Let's talk to CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo and retired general James "Spider" Marks. General, I want to start with you, and thank you both for being with us. When you hear what Chris is saying about the fact that these pro-Russian rebels are allowing villagers to come in, they're allowing pictures to be taken, but they're keeping investigators out, what does that say to you?

GENERAL JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Clearly, in my mind, Christi, what's happening on the ground is, and they're taking advantage of their presence, their position on the ground. They are establishing themselves as in control, and I would say they're protecting a crime scene so that the evidence doesn't go to somebody else.

The larger story here clearly is, what's the international outrage about this? How is the United States going to take a leadership position and call Putin for what he is? Clearly, he's responsible for this. This is a war that he could stop. And clearly, from an intelligence guy's perspective, if I could step beyond the humanitarian disaster for a second, and say what other form of terror will we see? What other jihadists might show up on this battlefield like every other battlefield over the course of the decade and realize this could be an opportunity to replenish military equipment, learn new techniques and then export those elsewhere? So this is a tragedy that goes through a number of layers.

BLACKWELL: Mary, many believe that this weapons system was moved from the Russian side of the border into Ukraine and then we saw the video. We believed it was moved back. In the context of tragedies in the past, speaking specifically of 83, the KL-007 flight that was shot down, is there a credible concern that these pieces of the plane will now move from one side of the border to the other?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, absolutely, and not just the pieces of the plane. You know, there's no indication where the bodies are being taken. All of this crime scene evidence, and that's what this is. These are criminals guarding their own crime scene. It's really outrageous. But before they move anything what you do in a good investigation is both the law enforcement and criminal investigators, since it's a crime scene, and the aviation investigators grid the whole crash site area so they can put and piece together the evidence after the fact. And only then once they have gathered the forensics is anything moved, are bodies taken away, and they're certainly taken away in a more dignified manner. So not only is evidence of the crime being spirited away, not to mention the block boxes which we really need to find, but this is not how you process an accident scene or a crime scene.

PAUL: General Marks, we have a report today from Reuters that Russian President Vladimir Putin and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have met, that they have at least spoken and agreed that there is a need to urgently stop the hostilities in Ukraine's southeast and begin peace talks. Do you think there's any gauge of what Putin -- does he really want that? What does he really want and how does he go about remedying this, if it was, indeed, an accident by rebels that he was supplying equipment to?

MARKS: You know, Christi, the issue is a very, very broad one. The response could be very in-depth. I promise I won't go there. Putin could stop it. He has acquiesced to date. Number one he has supplied and supported and has instigated this ungoverned state, this turmoil that exists in eastern Ukraine. Remember, he annexed Crimea and the world kind of went, well, I guess that's normal. So he's establishing a new barrier in terms of what we're tolerate.

He could stop this immediately by putting his foot down and saying, enough. Stop supplying the Russian separatists, agree to having, as Mary indicated, a legitimate and open investigation of what took place. But more importantly, he needs to raise his hand and say, look -- he's never going to say he's culpable, but could start to lean in and begin to embrace what could be a solution that at least gets to this very, very tragic occurrence that took place, and then behaviors will change from that. He could have forces on the ground right now. He was very easy. He got into Crimea. He could have forces on the ground in eastern Ukraine right now, his Russian forces. The international community would yell and scream, but he could isolate the area. He could then move those separatists away, and then he could go away and say, OK, now we have a space where we can have an investigation and get to the bottom of this thing.

BLACKWELL: General Spider Marks, Mary Schiavo, thank you, both.

MARKS: Thank you, folks.

PAUL: Thank you. It's been more than four months since the disappearance of the other

Malaysian Airlines flight, but a woman whose loved one was on that plane, on MH-370, has a message for the families of those killed this week, and she's going to join us, live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PAUL: It's been called an absolutely dreadful coincidence. Four months later in a second horrific tragedy from Malaysia Airlines in what remains an unresolved aviation mystery, flight 370 disappeared back on March 8th, the whereabouts of the plane and the 239 people onboard is still unknown today.

BLACKWELL: And just two days ago Malaysia Airlines flight 17 crashed over Ukraine. All 298 people there onboard were killed. Sarah Bajc joins us now. You've probably seen her on CNN before. Her partner Philip Wood was a passenger aboard flight 370, and she shared this very difficult and heartbreaking journey with us, and we thank you for coming in to talk about this. When you heard the four words, "breaking news, Malaysia Airlines," and then you heard, flight 17, another plane that went down, what did you feel?

SARAH BAJC, PARTNER OF MH370 PASSENGER PHILIP WOOD: Well, I actually heard it from my daughter. She had found it on Twitter. And at first I thought it might be a bad joke. There had been several bad jokes put out over the last couple of month, but then she checked it online and discovered it was actually real. And I think all of us were on pins and needles, thinking something else would happen. Those of us who refused to believe it was just a crash in the Southern Indian Ocean feel that there is something larger at play and it was just a matter of time for something else to happen. So I do believe that this is that something else, and there might even still be something else coming.

PAUL: And what do you think that something else is?

BAJC: I don't know, but I refuse to believe that these events are unrelated, you know? There were other airplanes flying in the air at the same time in very close proximity. It could have been any other flight, but that flight was targeted. I don't believe that's just a coincidence. I believe it's intentional.

PAUL: You believe somebody is intentionally targeting Malaysian airplanes?

BAJC: I think somebody is targeting Malaysia or leveraging Malaysia in a geopolitical initiative of some sort and the airline is just a nice public way to do it. For all we know, Malaysian Airlines is totally innocent in this, and, of course, the average Malaysian is totally incident in this. So the country is just being traumatized.

BLACKWELL: So we know that the 298 people who died in this crash, those bodies have not been brought back to their families, and there are few people who know more what that feels like. Explain to me the last several months, what that torment has been, having no answer on where Philip is. BAJC: Well, the torment is even worse than not having a body. It's

not even knowing for sure. I realize that the reality is probably I'm not going to have the chance to see him again. But there still is a chance. I mean, there's no proof that they're dead even yet. There's not even proof that plane has crashed, because there's no evidence.

So it's that you can't grieve, hope, and people telling you, you're being ridiculous. Just move on with your life. Just accept it. How do you that? I can't. It's not a matter of admitting. I'm not ready to give up the fight. I think we owe it to our loved ones to find out the truth.

And you know, that's the message to the families of MH-17, is that they owe it to their loved ones to fight, to find out what happened, and to do what they can to help prevent something like this from happening again. You know, no one deserves to walk in these shoes. It's -- it's an unbearable process.

PAUL: Sarah Bajc, quickly, what would you say to any of the people who are in the first few hours and days of this now, because you do have a perspective that you can give them that most people can't.

BAJC: Well, they can't control that the terrible thing has happened, but they can control how they respond to it. And it's very easy to succumb to grief. You know, the first week after Philip went missing, I could barely leave my apartment. I couldn't even deal with people, other than I would go to work and go home and that was all I could do.

But if they combine together and begin a forceful process of pushing for transparency in the investigation, and organize themselves, and the voice 370, the families of MH370 would like to help in that. and so, you know, we have an organization already put together. We have a Facebook site, and a way to communicate with each other. And we want to open up that resource to the families of MH-17 to come to us for help. Sometimes it just helps to talk to somebody who's been going through it, to begin the discussions of the things you need to do to protect yourself. So we'd like to help them.

PAUL: All right, well, Sarah Bacj, thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning, helping us understand it on that level and get the message out there you want to help and there's a resource to do so.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Sarah.

Our other big stories we're following this morning, the destruction in Gaza from clashes between Israel and Hamas. There's no word on plans to restore a new ceasefire, but a former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. says he has a plan for a peaceful resolution. We'll talk about that.

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PAUL: We're learning this morning that the death toll in Gaza is rising at the fighting between Israel and Hamas intensifies. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas says he will travel to Qatar to work on ending the bloodshed.

BLACKWELL: United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon is scheduled to travel to the region today to help find a solution. Joining us now to talk about the possible plan for peace is CNN analyst and former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. Michael Oren. Mr. Ambassador, it's good to have you with us this morning. The first question here, who holds the key to the resolution, the U.N., is it Egypt? Who here has the cards in hand?

MICHAEL OREN, CNN ANALYST: Good to be with you. The answer to that question is just about everybody. In the past rounds of fighting between Israel and Hamas, usually the American secretary of state would come in and gather everybody in a room and force them to sign a ceasefire, work out those deals. American leverage is not what it was. There's been a strained relationship between the United States and the Egyptian government of general el-Sisi and then strains within the Arab world in the Middle East between Qatar and Egypt, between Egypt and Turkey, tremendous conflicts and crises there.

So, really, it's going to have to involve Israelis, Egyptians, Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, perhaps some U.N. influence from the secretary-general, and the secretary of state John Kerry if he comes back to the region.

PAUL: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu wanted ground troops to prepare to expand its offensive against Hamas militants. Hamas meanwhile says they're not backing away. How plausible is peace or even a ceasefire at this point?

OREN: Well, as we speak tonight it doesn't look particularly imminent. This morning there was two attempts by Palestinian Hamas gunman to infiltrate Israel by tunnels. They came out of the tunnels. They were stopped by Israeli force. But had they gone through they would have gone into one of the farms along the border and killed civilians and taken hostages. Israel's offensive continues in the Gaza Strip now more than 40 hours on the ground. And, as you mentioned, there is a rising number of Palestinian casualties as Hamas continues to hide behind its civilian population and using them at human shields.

So right now the situation does not look particularly bright, but that doesn't mean that the situation couldn't change, if the, if the U.N. together with the United States, Egypt, Israel and the Palestinian Authority get together and present an offer to Hamas and to Israel, to everyone involved, that could ultimately benefit everybody.

BLACKWELL: Very quickly -- what's the timeline, do you think, that's possible here for this to be resolved?

OREN: Well, it's very difficult to tell, I think, because in previous rounds of fighting, there's always been that one incident, the tipping point, either a bomb goes off in Israel and hurts a great number of Israelis, and that creates an escalation on the ground in terms of Israel's calculation, or an Israeli bomb will hit a Palestinian target by accident, killing a number of Palestinians and that will change the political context, both on the street, particularly in Europe now, where there are demonstrations against Israel, and in the United Nations. It's very important to move quickly diplomatically before we reach that tipping point.

PAUL: All right. Michael Oren, thank you so much.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.

And thank you so much for watching.

PAUL: CNN Newsroom continues after a quick break. Stay close.

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