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Update On Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash; Russian State Reporter Resigns Partially Over MH-17 Coverage

Aired July 19, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Sciutto today in Washington.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow, live in New York.

Here is what we are working on this hour on in CNN.

SCIUTTO: CNN is live at the place where Malaysia Airlines flight 17 --

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Then Thursday happened. A second plane disappearing from radar. But this time no mystery about what happened. Flight 17 was crossing high above a war zone when it was blown out of the sky. Sudden death from a missile that people on the plane could never have seen coming, 298 people are dead. Their bodies lying in a war zone. We don't know who did it but the White House has its suspicions.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes or they claim shoot down fighter jets without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training and that is coming from Russia.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: Russia's president pointing his finger at Ukraine. But not many people buy that.

Two questions hang over the tragedy. Who and why? Nearly since the plane vanished from radar, many have pointed fingers at pro-Russian rebels. Is this the smoking gun? Video released by Ukrainian intelligence of an anti-aircraft battery driving off with one missile apparently missing. Was it the one that brought flight 17 crashing down?

The second question, why? Was it all a mistake? Ukraine says this proves it was the work of rebels.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: But learning who did this and why won't bring back the victims, 298 souls gone leaving behind hundreds of grieving families.

You'll hear those victims' stories and a sharp debate over who did this and what it means this hour only on CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: CNN is live at the place where Malaysia airlines flight 17 crashed. We'll go there in just a moment.

But first let's get you up to speed on the latest news.

HARLOW: That's exactly right.

The place where the plane went down is proving to be nearly as big a challenge as answering these questions. Who could have done this and why did they do it? Remember that part of the world is an active conflict zone right now with Ukrainian troops battling rebels who are backed at least politically by Russia.

Our CNN team had to leave the area briefly today for safety concerns. Here's the most commonly held theory about Malaysia flight 17. It is also the position of the U.S. government that the plane was brought down by a missile fired from the ground somewhere in the rebel controlled eastern Ukraine area. Investigators from Malaysia we know are on site. Investigators from the United States, Australia, they will also be there shortly.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Chris Cuomo is in Donetsk in Eastern Ukraine, not far from the crash site.

Chris, great to have you there. We, of course, concern about your safety. We know you had to leave the area earlier for security reasons. Also an issue for inspectors wanting to go there.

Can you tell us, has the situation gotten any safer there now?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, NEW DAY: We are told by the man in charge of the OSCE, the international cooperative body that monitors the violence here that he believes today was a little bit better.

But, you know, Jim, let me just tell you what that means. That means when you're asked to move, they fire in the air. That mean you're having women's pointed at you all the time. That means, as you're driving out there, there are over a dozen check points between the Ukraine and these groups, the militant groups. And everyone of them stops you. Everyone of them wants to search.

And there is constant sound of gunfire. This is an active conflict and that's what is driving the frustration. We have an interesting moment with the head of the OSCE. He gave us information we had never heard. And he gave us information he had never heard.

He told us the reason there is no cease-fire in any reporting that there was a planned one is not true, according to him. And he said the reason is there are about a hundred militant groups with no affiliation to one another.

So the idea of coordinating an effort is almost impossible. And then we told him that at some point later in the afternoon, the militants left who are there threatening with us weapons and they were replaced by men who appear to be in Ukrainian uniforms who finally gave some dignity to these bodies that have been out for way too long. And they put them in bags, they put them on trucks with their belongings and drove them away. We don't know where. There have been reports they were showing up at a morgue, a make shift morgue here in Donetsk.

But I have to tell you, Jim and Poppy, when I showed up at the scene, you know, the whole team has been up since Thursday. We thought it was a dream. We could not believe the scene was as raw as it is this long after the accident.

SCIUTTO: You know, Chris, having been out there recently, it is a good point you make. That this is really gang warfare going out there. It is not a formal war. You know, it is hard to tell who is on what side.

But you know, you mentioned this is a graveyard. This is a sacred place. There are 298 souls there. It is also a crime scene. And we were reporting yesterday a word that 38 bodies had been removed. That there had been looting of the site. From what you can tell, has that scene been disturbed? Has it been compromised in any way from what you can tell there?

CUOMO: Without question. And without being a forensic expert, the site has been corrupted. There's absolutely no question. The sanitary nature of how these things are usually done, and Poppy and Jim, you both are well aware of this. We've covered too many, unfortunately. None of that is in place.

I watched militants walking up and pulling pieces off the fuselage, looking at it, throwing it back on the ground. No question about it. The bodies were just not treated with the dignity that should be expected in this situation. There is obviously more of an intention for them to showcase what that here as in their opinion, a demonstration of the Ukraine government, of Ukrainian government trying to sabotage their efforts. That's what they're interested in doing. And showing you how strong they are, not coordinating an investigation.

Now, looting. I have not seen any looting. I have heard tell of it. I have not seen it. But I will tell you this. There is no question that there are things that we should be seeing that we're not. No cell phones, no purses, no wallets. The only computers you see are smashed and have been taken out of their sleeves. The luggage looks repacked. Bodies? I counted about 75 today, finally being taken away. I saw where are the others? We don't know.

SCIUTTO: Well Chris, it is great to have you there and it is exactly what you don't want in a situation like this. As the scene being disturbed when everybody is calling for a fair, thorough investigation.

Thanks very much to Chris Cuomo in Donetsk, in eastern Ukraine.

HARLOW: Yes. Our thanks to Chris really putting the human side of this in the forefront. Again, 298 innocent souls lost in this fighting. Also erupting in a

bowl of flame, in a plume of black smoke, was Malaysia airlines flight 17. As you know, it was headed from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. That's when the United States says it was shot down by a surface to air missile.

Two hundred ninety eight bodies now spread across miles of eastern Ukraine. The crash site, a crime scene in the middle of a war zone. And the black boxes with possibly very critical information have not yet been located at least not by officials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, OSCE SPOKESMAN, UKRAINE MONITORING MISSION: It basically looks like one of the biggest crime scene in the world right now, guarded by a bunch of guys in uniform with heavy fire power who are quite inhospitable. And there didn't seem to be anyone really controlled, for example. One of our top priorities was to find out what happened to the black boxes. No one was there to answer those questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And so many questions.

Let me bring in our experts. We have Mary Schiavo, former transportation department inspector general, David Soucie, former FAA safety inspector, also an audio expert, Paul Ginsberg, who will dig into those tames for us and CNN aviation analyst Miles O'Brien.

Thank you all for being here.

Mary, let me start with you. You heard from Chris what this scene is like. There is very little if any precedent for dealing with a crash in a situation like this in the middle of a war zone. When you have evidence that has clearly been tampered with, when you look at this, you were talking earlier about the fact that thousands of investigators are often needed to come and sometimes takes two or three of them to handle appropriately each victim. What will it be like as they try to deal with this?

MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, TRANSPORTATION DEPARTMENT: Well, right now, apparently, it is going to be take care of the dead first and get them off the site as quickly as possible. At least try to restore some humanity and dignity to the site.

But at this point, so much of the evidence has been moved or contaminated. What you usually do is to a grid first. That's why the U.S. NTSB has a go team. That's why they have a jet at their disposal. They get there and they get there fast. They map out the area. And if it is the FBI is there, the FBI, the criminal investigators would take precedence because it is a crime scene. And then they start moving things here because that couldn't be done because of the terrorists have the site. Moving the bodies does seem like a logical thing to do to get them to a place of decency. HARLOW: So David, I mean, everyone wants to know where the audio

recorders, the data, or the so-called black boxes, right? They have not been discovered, at least by officials at this point in time. At least that we're being told. How critical are they? What kind of information do you think could be gleaned from them given the scenario that U.S. officials think played out? That this jet was hit in the middle of the air, above 30,000 feet with the missile?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: What we would hope to discover in the flight data recorder and the voice recorder would be some indication that someone had warned them before handled. That they had said, you're flying through an area you should not be, worry warning. Get out of here.

HARLOW: But they were not in an area they weren't allowed to be.

SOUCIE: No. That's true. But they were in a different area than they had been, supposedly. When we look back, they really weren't. They were in an area they had flown before as well. So according to these audio tapes that Paul is going to address, it says, why are they here? It's a war zone. But there was no indication to the airline that it was a war zone. So hopefully those black boxes will give us a clue, and at least proof that they weren't before something happened.

HARLOW: It is critical.

Jim, let me let you get in here. I know you have a question for Paul.

SCIUTTO: Just a question come to mind following our coverage and we talk to David and Mary, a lot about this. All of our experts, they came up during MH 370. If you had streaming flight data and voice recorders coming directly from the plane throughout its flight, you wouldn't have the problem with MH 370, which is we have no idea what happened to that plane because we're still looking for the black boxes. And in this case, you have the black boxes possibly confiscated by one of the warring sides there. We don't know.

Does this again raise the issue, why don't we have that data? And those voice recorders streaming so you would know already if a warning had went through?

PAUL GINSBERG, FORENSIC AUDIO EXPERT: Exactly. That's right. And I've said this before that I believe we have the technology that allows us to do it. It is just a matter of implementing and of course the cost.

In addition to what David had said about what we could get from the black boxes, it possibly would give us an indication of what kind of explosion it was, if enough of the explosion was captured On the Recorder. Explosions have signatures in the same way that gunshots do. And we can possibly determine something about the actual weapon.

HARLOW: Miles, let me have you jump in here. First I want your expertise on what kind of damage these black boxes can sustain. Knowing what happened to this plane. And then what stands out to you as the most important part of this immediately in terms of the investigation finding from the plane.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: I wouldn't worry too much about the integrity of the black boxes in this case. They're certainly well within the parameters of wherever they are found. They should have integrity. Unless some other failure occurred, it should be able to be read. The question is in whose hands are they?

We have to remember here one important point. This isn't much of a mystery or a who done it at this point. We pretty much know how this all played out. So we're not trying to answer huge big deep questions as we were in the case of MH 370.

It would be nice to know, for example, to confirm the altitude which you would be able to get from the flight data recorder. It would be nice to know about the radio transmissions. It would be interesting to hear if the crew had any recognition of the trail of rocket coming in their direction.

And then frankly, one of the more important things down the road is, how long were people aware of this situation? This has a lot to do with the financial claims that might be levied against the airlines and who knows who else. If these people suffered for some great period of time, that is a very important point as well.

So those are all pieces of the puzzle which are, layers of forensics which might end up in a courtroom in the hague for all we know. But as this point, the big question, how it went down is that who, those don't seal to be really outstanding questions. HARLOW: Yes. And now just the question of, can investigator get

their hands on what they need, at least to learn the details of this, they have likely most of them never dealt with this situation like this.

Appreciate the expertise from all of you. Thank you very much.

SCIUTTO: Just as we're speaking now, I'm seeing a tweet coming out from the Netherlands' permanent representative to United Nations saying Netherlands with 189 people killed on this flight still has not been granted access to the crash site. So another sign of just the difficulties with this crash.

As the investigators try to get to the scene of the crash, they are greeted by armed gunmen who limit where they work and what they are allowed to see. How can they final any answers? We're asking one of the lead investigators on the scene.

Also, the everyday items left behind. The laptop, the notebooks, it is devastating to see. The personal stories also of those that are grieving their loved ones, 298 innocent souls on board. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

A small team of international observers was able to visit the crash scene for a second time. Their access, though, has been limited by rebel groups who control the area. Still they say they did make some progress. For one thing, bodies are now being collected from the wreckage and from nearby fields.

Michael Bociurkiw, the spokesman for the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe, observer group there.

Michael, tell me what you and your team were able to accomplish today. I know you've said it was safer today and you had a bit more access than you had yesterday. But it still seems that you operate under some pretty incredible restrictions there.

BOCIURKIW: That's absolutely true. It is one thing to get to the crash site. We're kind of, you know, at the mercy of the folks here in Donetsk region for getting to the crash site. And they were kind of handed over to a different group of rebels who actually control the immediate area.

But having said that, yesterday was a better day. We got to stay there longer. We got to survey a big area. But of course, what was very different today was the actual collection or beginning of collection of bodies into what to has appeared to be professional like body bags.

We counted about 75, I believe, body bags that were collected. We left before there was any movement. And then subsequent to our departure, reports started coming in to us that those bags may have possibly been loaded on to trucks. We only report what we actually observe, that's our function as a monitoring mission. So tomorrow, we will go back to the area and we will compare what we saw today to tomorrow's body count.

SCIUTTO: Michael, this is an incredibly sensitive crime scene. And from speaking to past investigators, everything is important. Pieces of the wreckage, the condition of the bodies, other things found there. Based on your own experience as you look at this, and it has already been a couple days since this crash. How much disruption has there been to this crime scene as a result? One of the delays but also the problems with access. The various people walking around the crash site touching things, et cetera. How much disruption?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, yes. It is a very sensitive time, obviously. And today, when we arrived there must have been well over 100 journalists there. And you know, really, where a special monitoring mission for us to be able to do our work, we need tranquility, we need a sense of confidentiality. That was not there at all.

The other thing that was there, only during the time of our visit was quite a large cordon of armed men in uniforms. Some of them masked. No one really knew why they were there but it was somewhat intimidating to us as well. I must point out as well that our vehicles were not allowed into the site at all.

Secondly the big problem is there is no security perimeter. Normally, of course, one of the first things that have when there is a crash is there is a security perimeter established. That's not there at all. So really, anyone can walk in and perhaps tamper with evidence. It's a big problem.

SCIUTTO: Michael, what do you need now to be able to complete your work? What do you need Russia to do? What do you need the various rebel groups to do? I imagine just to stay back.

BOCIURKIW: Well, you know, we've been on the ground in three months. We are in tent cities in Ukraine. And we've been in eastern Ukraine for quite some time. We had a one-month kidnapping incident with eight of our colleagues.

But you know, having said all that, we do know the main players on the ground. What we need is a secure environment to operate. We need more freedom of mobility to go there whenever we want. And crucially, of course, for the international community is for us to be able to lay the ground work that was crucial steps to allow others to come in.

You know, when we went there today and many journalists told us as well, there was not quite heavy firing going on in the distance. And it is really intimidating to go there and hear that. So many things need to fall into place for, you know, large unarmed civilians to come in.

SCIUTTO: And to just remind our viewers, it is a war zone that you're trying to operate in.

And just quickly, Michael, before I let you go, do you have any sense, do you have any information about where the black boxes are? Did they fall in rebel hands? Are they still in Ukraine? That's what the Ukraine government. Do you have any idea?

BOCIURKIW: Right, right. Well, you know, one of the first things, of course, when we came to the site yesterday as we asked who was in charge. And it didn't appear to us that anyone was in charge. There was no obvious commander.

We asked the same question today, no one was produced. So you know, there is no one to answer that question. It is incredible whether the black boxes have been found and if they have been, where are they? So we will continue to press for answers. But at the moment, it is a very, very big mystery.

SCIUTTO: The question holds for the entire part of that country in Europe, eastern Ukraine, in Europe, who is in charge?

Michael Bociurkiw, thanks very much for joining us.

It has been more than two days since Malaysia flight 17 crashed in Ukraine. Bodies and personal effects still remain among the wreckage. Coming up, snap shots of these once prized items now left behind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, shorts, watches, passports, notebooks, laptops, all of these everyday items founds in the wreckage of flight 17, they're really hard to look at. They remind you of those 298 souls that were brutally murdered in this attack. Our Jason Carroll shows us, they tell a very devastating story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A red suitcase, an I heart Amsterdam t-shirt, a child stamped monkey, a lonely planet guide to Bali. These are the things left behind. The 298 people including three babies who board a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur and never arrived.

They were in the midst of everyday life will many headed to vacation. And so we see the novels they were reading, a map, a deck of cards now strewn in the grass. Clothing everywhere. Scattered along the wide field of wreckage. There are backpacks and handbags, brightly colored suitcases in a jumbled heap by the side of the road. Passports, some charred, others apparently unscathed, are among the rubble too.

In this wide field and tall grass, debris stretches so far in so many small pieces, it seems impossible to know for certain what happened to those passengers in the last moments of Malaysia flight 17.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: For those who knew anyone of those 298 passengers or crew on board flight 17, laying flowers or cards or mementos on their current resting place is impossible for now. The crash scene is still a very active investigation. It is a crime scene in the middle of a war zone. And for most families, it is very far from home.

Our Laurie Segall is here, on set with me, to show us some of these images, talk about some of these stories. So much of it is unfolding online, Facebook, what are you seeing?

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN MONEY TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: You know, I was digging through and looking on a lot of these victims' Facebook pages. And it is such a tragedy that you can see their friends. Their Facebook pages are almost becoming this online memorials to these folks.

So I want to speak specifically about a victim. His name is Emiel Mahler. And if you look at his Facebook wall, you can just see the outpouring of support and people remembering him. I want to read you a couple comments.

One says, oh, Emiel, my surrogate little brother. Who I am a going to tease now? At least we have the peace of mind that you found your one and only Elaine and you'll get to be together forever, just in a different peaceful world. Don't give us a chance to come over and visit. Not to worry, we will see each other again.

And of course, they were referring to Emiel's girlfriend who went to Melbourne University, also passed away. So you begin to understand a little bit more about him.

Another comment. Emiel, we just don't share the same birthday. We share memories. I'll never forget the drunken nights (INAUDIBLE) on your birthday, the time we played pool, the times we all sat in the bathtub hiding, the time we all jumped in the pool with clothes, the time we sat at the back lodge opposite lodge, main lodge. I can't believe it. Rest in peace, bud. The world will miss you.

You just see that these people were not just faceless folks. These people were full of life. Emiel, obviously, loved to travel. He loves to experience life to the fullest. And you begin to see that in these social profiles that are used for everyday life that are now being used in their death.

HARLOW: They all have their own stories. They all have hundreds of people that loved them, that were waiting for them in Kuala Lumpur. It is absolutely tragic. And when you look at some of the final posts, it tells us a lot as well, right, the final posts. And headed on this trip, I'm excited that we're going all over the world from Kuala Lumpur.

SEGALL: You know, one passenger, his name was Regis Crolla. He actually checked in on Facebook. And he said going back to my roots. See you very soon, Bali. And you area liking at that post right now.

Now, obviously, you look back at that and it is such a tragedy. But you know, there have been hundreds of comments on that kind of post. He also posted a picture on Instagram of his passport and his plane ticket. And he said, you know, going from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, to Bali, adios, amigos.

Now, you look, that has nearly 30,000 likes, 30,000 comments of people, an outpouring of support and what is, you know, you look back at that and it looks so ominous, Poppy.

HARLOW: And I know coming up next, Laurie, you'll talk to us next hour about some of the other social media posts that are up there. People that took pictures inside the plane. Even people that were a little bit nervous about what could happen. So, we'll have that next hour.

Thank you for coming in, Laurie. We appreciate it.

Well, as you well know, no one has taken responsibility for shooting down that airliner. But audio released by Ukrainian officials is incriminating.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Of course CNN cannot verify the authenticity of that audio which purportedly is -- reportedly pro-Russian rebel in a panic after allegedly shooting down flight 17. Just a lot of questions still remain. How credible is that?

We are going to discuss that in detail next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Relations between the U.S. and Russia were already were cold before flight 17 was shot down. Now things could get much worse.

Russia just issued a list of Americans. It is banning from traveling to Russia. This comes three days after President Obama announced new U.S. sanctions against Russia over the conflict in Ukraine. President Obama and Russian president Putin talked about those sanctions on Thursday. And yesterday, Mr. Obama described their conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Time and again, Russia has refused to take concrete steps necessary to de-escalate the situation. I spoke to president Putin yesterday in the wake of additional sanctions that we had imposed. He said he wasn't happy with them and I told him that we have been very clear from the outset that we want Russia to take the path that would result in peace in Ukraine. But so far at least, Russia has failed to take that path.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN foreign affairs correspondent Elise Labott joins me now from Washington.

Elise, you see very varied reaction to this shoot down so far. President Obama was very careful in his words yesterday. He did not exactly pin the blame on Russia. And today, in a series of phone calls between European leaders in Russia, you see a mix here, that the Dutch prime minister having what was described as a very tense conversation with Russia. Merkel, Angela Merkel of Germany, a little more measured saying just talking about access to the crash site.

You know, I wonder, you and I have talked about this a lot. In the lead-up to this, all the back and forth, over eastern Ukraine, Europe has been reluctant for tougher sanctions against Russia because they would air some of the economic cost. Do you think this crash is going to change that?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS REPORTER: Well, that's the real question, Jim, whether this is going to become the tipping point for Europe. A lot of these countries have victims on this plane especially the Dutch which has been a little bit reluctant to impose sanctions. So I think that as the evidence becomes more and more clear, and I think that once the Europeans want to have a very firm case. So does the United States before they start imposing sanctions.

I think once the evidence becomes clear about what really happened, I think it will be inevitable that there is going to be, not only a discussion among leaders, but among the public and among their politicians. A lot of these people have coalition governments and these politicians at home are going to press for sanctions.

So I think it will be a real discussion right now. Initially these people were very reluctant. It was about money. Bus as President Obama said before, yesterday, actually, this should be a real wake-up call for Europe. That this conflict is not local. It is really starting to affect Europe and beyond, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, 12 nationalities on that flight.

U.S. officials have been telling me even before this flight, and I'm sure they've been telling you as well in recent weeks, that they've basically given up on a truly cooperative relationship with Russia. This takes things in an even more dangerous direction to shoot down. Where does this leave U.S./Russia relations? Are you back to a cold war situation? Are we even friends anymore? Really? How bad is it?

LABOTT: Well, it was getting pretty bad before. And so the question is, as President Obama put it out for president Putin, this is really a kind of fork in the road for him. He has a strategic decision. Does president Putin realize that he created a monster and say, listen, I'd better back off. Maybe it is time to start soothing relations with the west. They're looking for a sign for that. So far they don't see that.

But if you look at the other areas that the U.S. and Russia were cooperating on, Syria, for instance, that's not going so well. The Russians really haven't been very supportive although they had that chemical weapons deal. They're still continuing to supply the Syrian government with weapons.

Now the U.S., very concerned about Egypt, for instance. And their crackdown on political activists and the Russians now are supplying Egyptians with weapons. So if you look across the globe, in Cuba, for instance, there's talk about that whether the Cubans are going to setup another spy satellite there, harkening back to the cold war.

So, it doesn't look very good for relations. And it does seem the U.S. is looking for other partners to cooperate on some of these other issues they might have looked towards Europe, towards Russia about.

SCIUTTO: And of course, the nuclear negotiations with Iran just extended for four months yesterday. But Russia, a very key player in that. And you know, potential spoiler in that as well.

Thanks very much to Elise Labott.

Since the plane went down some 48 hours ago, Ukrainian officials have shared with CNN and others audio recordings which they say prove that the pro-Russian militants shot this plane down and at the same time were in touch with their Russian handlers as it happened. And in fact got their weapons from Russian. U.S. officials can't independently corroborate these recordings.

But coming up nest, we are going to dig deeper on these recording and there are some new photographs out today as well.

Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) OBAMA: Nearly 300 innocent lives were taken. Men, women, children, infants who had nothing to do with the crisis in Ukraine. Their deaths are an outrage of unspeakable proportions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: An outrage of unspeakable proportions. Those words from President Obama as he addressed yesterday the downing of the jetliner in Ukraine.

Still no one has taken responsibility. Certainly a lot of denials out there. But the U.S. now believes that it was likely pro Russian rebels. And the evidence against them is growing.

CNN has obtained this video which according to Ukraine's interior ministry shows the Buk anti-aircraft launcher like the one believed to be responsible for shooting down that Malaysian jetliner.

You can see it here. And that is zoomed in because they believe that one of the missiles is missing. You can see it. We'll play it again. Rumbling through the streets. Some suspect headed from Ukraine over the border into Russia.

SCIUTTO: And then there is this intercepted phone call, purportedly between pro-Russian militants before the plane was shot down and it appears it boils through this suspicion. Listen as they talk about delivering the Buk missile across the Russia border from Russia into Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Listening to you, Buryat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Where do we have to unload this beauty? Nikolaiovich?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Which one? This one?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Yes, yes, that one which I delivered. I am already in Donetsk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Is this what I am thinking about? That one?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Yes, yes. Buk. Buk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Is she on the truck?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through text): Yes. She is on there. We need to unload her somewhere to hide it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: And it gets even more suspicious. Just a short time after the jet was shot down, another phone call was intercepted again by Ukrainian authorities. Listen as the rebels realize it was not a transport but a civilian plane.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYING)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, military analyst, Rick Francona, he is a retired air force intelligence officer. Also retired army lieutenant colonel Robert Maginnis, audio expert Paul Ginsberg and former CIA operative Bob Baer.

Colonel Francona, I would like to start with you. There is been a stream of evidence coming from Ukrainian intelligence. They've been sharing some of it with me here. You have these intercepted phone call as the plane were shot down apparently as this missile system was delivered. You know, the video that Poppy was talking about, seeming to show that the missile system being sent back over the border into Russia after the plane was shot down. And there were new photographs which we are going to share with our viewers shortly that the Ukrainians have put out, showing not one but three Buk missile systems going back over the border into Russia.

You're a military intelligence officer. When you look at this stuff, granted, we're in the middle of an information war between the two sides. When you look at this, do you consider this credible?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I have to tell you in doing this for a long time, this seems very convenient to me that all of this information comes out just when you need it. And it is all the damning information that you need just bolster their case.

I'm not saying a suspect and the Pentagon has even said they have no reason to doubt it. But I just, still the timing of the whole thing bothers me. It is just too easy. I mean, having done this for a long time, it is never this good.

SCIUTTO: That's a fair point. A fair question. You do make a good point. The Pentagon and the White House, they both told us that they do not have reason to doubt it but at the same time, they can't corroborate it.

Paul, I wonder if I could bring you in. You're an audio expert. You hear the recordings. Pretty good quality, it seems for cell phone communications. I would imagine they know their cell phone calls might be recorded. But as you listen to it, do they sound authentic to you in.

GINSBERG: Well, I agree with Rick. These are excellent quality. In fact, we had intercept of three different calls and two of them were in stereo. Something I've never seen in my 40-year career with FBI, secret service, DEA and so on. You would have to be at the telephone company at the switch location where each of these two lines were coming in to make a stereo recording where they're separate. So that shows that they may have had some, somebody working in the telephone company.

SCIUTTO: Interesting.

Bob, I want to bring you in. Because yes, there are questions about both the video and the pictures and so on. That said, to this point, it matches with what U.S. officials have concluded. One, that it was a surface-to-air missile. That it was a surface-to-air missile of this type, the Buk system, the Russian-made system. U.S. officials saying that as well. That it came from the Ukrainian side of the border.

So to this point, it is matched with the intelligence conclusions that the U.S. officials have made. In fact, U.S. officials have also said, they believe, it is their working theory that the missile system was transferred in the eastern Ukraine from Russia. Taking that all together, what do you think of the case? Do you find the case that Russia was involved somehow is credible in your view?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I think the preponderance of evidence is the Russians were involved. These missile systems were very complicated, hard to work to get a lock on a target, you have to know what you're doing. You have to be trained. It is, you know, to keep these systems up. The mechanical part is really hard. So the chances that the Russians having provided this is very good.

But then again, I don't base it on the Ukrainian intercepts. I've been following this as Rick has for years and I've never seen such damning evidence come out so quickly after an incident like this. And let's not forget the Ukrainian government is party to a conflict and they want to frame Russia. Still, I'll go back to I think the Russians who I think had a complicity at some level at the very least, supplying weapons which the rebels on their own couldn't handle.

SCIUTTO: And that is a key point. Because it raise as whole host of implications for U.S./Russian relations and what to do now if Russia was complicit in the killing of the 298 people.

Colonel Maginnis, I want to bring you in now because of your own expertise as well. Something struck me from the Pentagon press conference yesterday when the spokesman Admiral John Kirby said that even before this crash the U.S. military was aware that pro-Russian rebels had surface-to-air missile systems like this.

It just strikes me, if they knew it, we know the systems can hit the 31,000 or 32,000 feet, why do you think it was a mistake, security error, not to have warned airlines to stay away from eastern Ukraine if the U.S. had that knowledge?

LT. COL. BOB MAGINNIS (RET.) U.S. ARMY: Well, they may have warned them. We don't know exactly. Certainly in May there was a defense weapon that shot down a helicopter. Then last month you had an army transport that 49 Ukrainians soldiers were killed by supposedly near an airfield by another man pads (ph).

And then, of course, earlier this week, the am-26 was shot out of the air at 26,000 feet. Now, that's the real telling one, because the other ones where fairly close to the ground. But when you reach up to 21,000 feet, and you need to really reconsider man pad's threat and take into account that maybe this was an SA-11. Now, clearly, we have all sorts of satellite imagery. We have all sorts of Intel abilities to look at what's crossing the border. It's been publicized in the open press about all sorts of heavy equipment, much less GRU and FSBP for working among the separatists.

So, you know, Russia has fingerprints all over this. They have a lot of heavy equipment that allegedly has gone in there. And of course, as you indicated earlier, it looks like that SA-11 perhaps, several of those, have infiltrated back into Russia over the last 24 hours.

SCIUTTO: All right, thanks very much to Bob Maginnis, Rick Francona, Bob Baer and Paul Ginsberg for helping to analyze those fascinating audio recordings.

HARLOW: Yes. Such a fascinating discussion and so many questions remain about them as we listen to them.

Thank you for that, Jim and to all our panelists.

Coming up next, the Ukraine gunman keeping some investigators away from the crash site. Also, a journalist, a Russian journalist, a journalist who works for Russia today resigning because of their coverage. We will tell you the story. That is next.

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HARLOW: A Russian state reporter has resigned in part over their coverage of the MH-17 tragedy.

Sara Firth who was based in London said she is quote "for the truth." She said this on twitter, and also was, quote, "Russia today's policy to always blame Ukraine."

This is a fascinating story. Our senior media correspondent Brian Stelter just spoke with Firth who says she just couldn't take it anymore.

And Brian, this is interesting because this is not the first Russian today correspondent to really publicly leave the channel for objections to how they report the news. We saw an anchor, Liz Wall, do the same thing earlier this year.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And she actually resigned on air. Sara, on the other hand, did it on twitter. I talked to earlier today and she essentially said exactly what Jim was talking about in the prior segment. About the information war that is going on. She felt like she was part of it and didn't want to be anymore. Here is a clip.

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SARA FIRTH, FORMER RUSSIA TODAY REPORTER: And that moment, the way we handled that breaking news story was just the clarifying moment to me. And really, I have had many times over the five years that I have been a reporter where I had a similar struggle and you watched the story handled in that way and you felt very strongly that right away the narrative is being pushed to a very specific narrative to the detriment of the facts and accuracy in reporting.

(END VIDEO CLIP) STELTER: She was concern there was so much finger pointing toward the Ukrainian and really knows skepticism back toward the country that funds that channel, Russia.

HARLOW: Right.

And Brian, what I think is really interesting is unlike a lot of media channel that might not directly address this Russia today, did address this. They came out with the statement, you know, in part saying, look, we have different definitions of the truth, and that was a real sticking point for her, too.

STELTER: For sure. Sarah Firth said there is only one truth. She believes is only truth and this is the one that news channel should be providing. This is a channel that mixes news and opinion in a way that you really rarely see. And I think that's why it's such a controversial channel. It's in so many Americans' homes, but as with everything in the story, you have to know the source.

HARLOW: Yes, you absolutely do. And I had previously called her a Russian journalist. She works for "Russia Today." She is British. Had been there five years and really struggled before with whether or not to stay.

We appreciate the reporting. More on show, obviously tomorrow. Brian, thank you.

STELTER: Tomorrow morning.

HARLOW: We will be right back.

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