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Limited Access to Crash Site; More Rockets Fired From Gaza; Interview with Sarah Bajc; Malaysia Airlines: 2 Tragedies in Four Months

Aired July 19, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

HARLOW: And there the 298 innocent victims in all of this caught up in an international conflict. They had absolutely no part of, and you are seeing the faces now of some of those lost on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - a nun, an international athlete, a family traveling on a summer vacation, citizens from more than 10 nations around the world. The only American on board, Quinn Lucas Schansman. He was an avid rugby player, headed to Indonesia to be on vacation with his family. His grandfather spoke to CNN affiliate KYW about finding out that news.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD SCHANSMAN, GRANDFATHER OF MALAYSIA CRASH VICTIM: You know, as a (INAUDIBLE) you just hope that none of the children or the grandchildren will go before you. And now it has happened. It's just the first time it has happened in our family. We always have the possibility to out live our children and this time it didn't work, unfortunately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: It's heartbreaking and we are going to focus on the victims throughout this evening. More on the passenger story coming up this story. First though, we do want to get you up to speed on the latest in this investigation.

SCIUTTO: Well, it is well after dark now in eastern Ukraine. The third night since Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot from the sky killing 298 people. One major frustration at the scene, international observers and investigators are still being kept away from parts of the wreckage and some of the victims.

Read this just tweeted by a NATO official representing the Netherlands. "No access to crash site yet. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte to President Putin, you have to take responsibility and use your influence with the separatists." Adding to the frustration, it is dangerous there. This is a war zone, after all. Russian-backed rebels are fighting Ukrainian troops all around the place where the plane's wreckage went down.

People there tell us they have heard gunfire even artillery explosions. The recovery of personal effects and the bodies of many of the victims is just beginning to get organized but that's only in the past few hours. Our CNN reporters say that certainly was not the case early on.

CNN's Chris Cuomo was right there among the debris and saw for himself how the scene was handled. He joins us now on the telephone. Also, with us now, Saima Mohsin. She's in Amsterdam where that doomed flight originated, 189 Dutch who were killed. And our Andrew Stevens, he's in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, of course, where that flight was intended to land and never made it.

Chris, I want to talk with you now. We have talked a bit about how much the scene has been compromised by people, by the pro-Russian rebels. What are you seeing there now? Crucially, is anybody in charge there?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (ON THE PHONE): Well, it's really difficult to say that anybody is in charge in a investigative capacity, Jim. You would have to say the local militants are. The head of the OSCE which is monitoring organization, the international cooperative monitoring agency for violence said there are 100 different militia groups in eastern part of Ukraine so the idea of any type of consensus and a coordinated ceasefire is almost difficult to imagine.

The people that we have seen there have been very inhospitable to people coming. The Ukraine government just put out new numbers saying they have 200 emergency workers on the ground, at the site, and that's really hard to believe, Jim. I am not saying that the Ukrainian government is not telling the truth, but I just, I didn't see those types of numbers there. They also say 800 to 900 armed militants are keeping people away. I didn't see numbers anything like that there either.

But again, you know, there are two sides to this conflict. There's a lot of propaganda going back and forth. One thing is for sure, the victims involved have not been afforded the dignity that they should in a situation like this, Jim. The bodies sat out there too long. They received too little respect and they only got bagged and brought away today by workers that we watched do that work, and where they were taken we are not absolutely sure.

You know, but just moments ago before I came on, I was talking to one of the separatists or militants, depending on your perspective, and I asked him, you know, I keep getting reports of looting. I didn't see any. And he pointed to his watch and he started laughing, and he said a lot of people have new watches. You know, that's the type of thing you're hearing, hopefully he is just making it morbid humor, but there is no question people have been going through things, Jim and this has not been done the way it should. But what do you expect when you are in the middle of a civil war?

SCIUTTO: I mean, it's a sickening and already horrible for the families involved and that much more horrible because of this. I want to go to Saima now because you are in the Netherlands and Holland lost more people than any other country. There were 12 countries who lost passengers on the flight but Holland, 189.

Describe us the reaction there. There must be tremendous anger and I imagine people starting to point their finger at Russia, at the militants for who was responsible. What are you hearing there?

SAIMA MOHSIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there is, yeah, amidst the mourning and the grieving here, Jim, there is a lot of anger, too. A lot of questions are being raised about the investigation. They want to know what is happening about that. We have heard about those stern words you just mentioned being cross between the Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte and President Putin of Russia. And that really is the translation of the Dutch people's sentiment too. They want something done. They want access to that site.

And that frustration, by the way, is echoed also by Malaysia Airlines. Just a short while ago, I spoke to the Malaysian Airlines second in command who just flew in to Amsterdam, arriving this morning with 100 or so staff and volunteers an emergency care team, and I was talking to him about the bereavement counseling that they're offering. But I also asked him about the access that Chris was just talking about, trying to get to that site.

He said it's incredibly frustrating but at the same time it's dangerous, and we don't want to take any risk, but we want to get there. We want to be able to get to the bodies, to repatriate them but we also want to start forensic investigation, and there was also talk, of course, of taking family members to that site, Jim, but now that seems unlikely given the level of violence and the little access.

Amidst the anger, let's not forget there are a lot of people here that are grieving, not just the next of kin and family members but also the entire nation. This is a nation that's been hit hard with the majority of passengers on board MH-17 from here in the Netherlands and right now well into the night I've been here since early morning - well into the night, people are queuing up to (INAUDIBLE) this condolence booth behind me just outside Schipol Airport, at the entrance to the departure lounges.

And also laying flowers, children coming as well with their parents and entire families coming. This is a nation that doesn't grieve very publicly. It's a very private nation. I have been speaking to people in villages around Amsterdam, some of whom knew the people that were on board, and they said "Look, we are very private people and we like to grieve and mourn privately, but we do want to pay our respects." We are opening up condolence boots in various towns and cities to try and share in this loss with the people involved.

And also earlier today I saw some Malaysian Airlines cabin crew and I asked them if they were willing to speak with me and they became visibly distressed, teary eyed but they said "Yes, we'll speak to you, not on camera." One of them, Jim, told me that only a few months ago she lost a neighbor, fellow crew members on flight MH-370, and now two days ago she has lost another neighbor on board flight MH-17, a double tragedy for her and her entire community back in Kuala Lumpur. Jim.

SCIUTTO: It's a national tragedy in particular for the Netherlands, and we have Andrew Stevens. He's in Kuala Lumpur. It's incredible two months after we were talking after the loss of MH-370. I know that Poppy had a question for you from New York.

HARLOW: And you know, Andrew, when you talk about what happened there, you were there extensively covering the disappearance of flight 370, the anger there is many fold, one that these loved ones, more than 20 people, citizens there have died in all of this and their bodies have not gone through a proper burial that they would like to see within 24 hours, and what can you tell us about that? And also the fact that you have this country still in the midst grieving from what happened to MH=370.

ANDREW STEVENS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Poppy. It's inconceivable tat a Boeing 777 from the same airline can be downed within five months of each other. Two airlines going down and that shock is still very, very clearly seen here. This is a predominantly Muslim country and there has been a lot of questions and a lot of the imams here - religious leaders, have been talking, urging people to be patient and saying this is a test from god and things will get better, but obviously very, very difficult for people here to comprehend that the national airline - this airline is held in very high esteem within the Malaysian community, that such a tragedy could have happened so quickly, twice.

But as far as the bodies are concerned, this is a really key area now for the government of Najib Razak to try to get the bodies home, because under Islamic tradition, the bodies need to be buried within 24 hours. In fact the prime minister's own step grandmother was on that plane. This was a woman that was widely admired here both within her family and the broader communities, known as "ibu' which means mother in Malay, and she was on that flight. She was coming back to see her extended family here in Kuala Lumpur.

The remains, as we understand, are still in Ukraine, and the prime minister has been talking to victims' next of kin. He spent two hours with them yesterday, and his message was "we are going to see justice for the victims, and we want to see the perpetrators brought to justice, but as important we want to see those remains brought home. We need a safe corridor into that area. We need the victims brought home to their families. We need a safe corridor into that area. We need these victims brought home to their families so they can be properly buried."

You can imagine the stress of the families as they deal every night going to bed knowing that their loved ones are still out there in that area, in that crash site and people are unable to get to. So it's a desperately sad situation here but (INAUDIBLE) say the imams say this is a test. The people I speak to here, there's a lot of grief, there is shock, but there is not a lot of anger here. It's just that, it's almost god-willing, please bring our people home and bring the people responsible for this to justice, and that is what we are looking for.

HARLOW: Yes, and unimaginable pain there and around the world as people grieve for this. We appreciate the reporting. Andrew Stevens for us. And to you, Jim, before we move on, I know you and I just received this from the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, talking - talked about anger, right. He is saying totally disrespectful behavior at this tragic site, calling it downright disgusting and also calling on Vladimir Putin to do something, saying "I have told him the opportunity expires to show the world that he is serious about helping." We will discuss that a lot more later in the hour. Anger and outrage coming from him there.

Also, more than 48 hours after the crash, some victims' bodies remain, all of the victims' bodies really remain scattered in this debris field that is miles and miles left out in the open. Where is the dignity for the victim? We're going to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

After another day of finger-pointing about who is to blame for bringing down flight MH-17, one thing we do know is haunting. 298 souls are gone, the passengers coming from all walks of life, a flower shop owner, a real estate agent and 80 children with their lives yet to unfold, including four infants. CNN's Jake Tapper has some of their stories.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Among the more horrific remains scattered in that sad field in eastern Ukraine are ordinary objects now shrouded in tragedy. Travel plans unrealized, passports with blank pages that will not be stamped, and bags violently emptied, never to be used again.

All 298 people here, the ones on board Malaysia Airlines flight 17 perished. Scientists, students, families, children, all taken before their time, including American citizen Quinn Lucas Schansman. Fatima Dyczynski was the CEO of Xoterra space. She was an engineer inspiring others to innovate.

FATIMA DYCZYNSKI, XOTERRA SPACE CEO: We all have that mandate of pushing the limitations of technologies.

TAPPER: Nearly 100 of these innocent victims were traveling to an international HIV-AIDS conference in Australia where they were to be joined by President Clinton.

BILL CLINTON, FMR. U.S. PRESIDENT: They really are in a way martyrs to the cause that we were going to Australia to talk about.

TAPPER: Among them, Glenn Thomas from the World Health Organization, and prominent HIV-AIDS researcher, Hugh Blang (ph), a father of five children.

DR. MICHAEL MERSON, FRIEND OF MH-17 VICTIM: Despite being a great scientist he was a man of art and also a man of family. He was very dedicated to his family. He was traveling a lot but he was always thinking about them.

TAPPER: Australian Nick Norris, was a grandfather, traveling and dying alongside his three young grandchildren. His nephew spoke to CNN this morning.

MATT JONES, LOST 4 FAMILY MEMBERS ON MH-17: (INAUDIBLE) the family is looking for some answers, and Nick himself was an inspirational hero to some of the people, he was a real storyteller and natural leader.

TAPPER: Norris' grandchildren, ages 8, 10 and 12 are among 80 children reportedly lost here in Ukraine. 80. It's almost too much to bear. Along with them was a 77-year-old Catholic nun, Sister Philomene Tiernan. She was sharing a cabin with those just setting out to begin their own life's work.

Indiana University doctoral student Karlijn Keijzer lost her life here. Darryl Dwight Gunawan, just 20, was a young deejay, whose death has shaken the friends he left behind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found out that he was on it and I was extra shock. All my friends going a lot of times to Asia and flying the same route, so it's difficult for us and for all his friends to understand that this could happen.

TAPPER: How and why these lives were cut short is now under investigation, but there will never be a reason that makes any sense.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: It makes no sense at all. There is a growing outcry over the lack of dignity for the victims in this crash, and bodies remain scattered throughout the massive crash site that goes on literally for miles. Some emergency workers have even told CNN it's not their job to collect the remains, and a pro Russian leader claimed that officials from the Netherlands and from Malaysia have asked that the bodies not be moved.

I want to bring in Mary Schiavo. She's an expert and a former Department of Transportation inspector general, also David Soucie, former FAA safety inspector and our aviation analyst, Miles O'Brien.

Mary, let me begin with you. Obviously an investigation is different depending on what country it is done in, but what you know from dealing with investigations, whose responsibility is it to deal with the bodies that have now been laying in the field since Thursday?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: The nation of the accident. It's their responsibility but also they have a problem because in any accident site investigation, or crime site investigation you have one lead agency and you appoint someone who is in charge overall, and here this is a clear reason why you do that. Here, no one is in charge. So no one is making (INAUDIBLE).

HARLOW: And Chris Cuomo said on the ground, clearly, he is there, there is no clarity as to who is in charge. SCHIAVO: That's right. The lines of command are very clear in the investigation. In this case it's a crime so the criminal investigators would take the lead but they work in concert with the air crash investigators, and the (INAUDIBLE) which is a group that comes in and takes care of the remains and all of the personal effects.

HARLOW: And Jim, as you know, as you've been reporting on this, the temperatures there, the heat is making this situation even worse.

SCIUTTO: No question. I have to ask you, Mary, David, Miles, you all have great experience in plane crashes investigations. Have you ever, is there any precedent for a crash like this happening in a place where the scene is compromised, and you don't have the bodies removed for days and you have all sorts of people, journalists and residents wondering over the area, and has that ever happened in your experience?

SCHIAVO: The only one that I can think that I worked personally as we had a case where there was a crash in Venezuela, and it was very difficult to get to the site, very difficult to maintain control, and it wasn't processed properly, but it was not a war zone and the purpose was not to literally delay taking care of the remains.

HARLOW: David, jump in on that.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Yes, I haven't had one, other than one in Africa that we did, but that is to be expected there. The looting and things like that is something that happens there quite often.

HARLOW: What about flight 7 in '83?

SOUCIE: I don't think it was, though.

SCHIAVO: Well, that was over water. The trouble was it was shot down over water but there was interference because all the nations rushed there to find the wreckage and the black boxes, and Russia actively, the Soviet Union then actually interfered and they put down a fake pingers and they tried to stop the ships and they rammed things, and so they did interfere but the plane and the bodies were in the ocean, of course.

HARLOW: And Jim, let me let you get to Miles with your question there.

SCIUTTO: Miles, looking at this going forward, I just wondered again, you have experience in this, slowly investigators are moving in there, at least monitors - actually the investigators have not gotten there yet. They are waiting for the scene to be more clear. But how much damage does that do the investigation, this delay, compromising of the site, possible tampering with some of the evidence there. How much damage does that do?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, if there is residue on the wreckage. That residue isn't going to disappear right away. The way the wreckage is bent is actually very crucial, too. Did it explode from the inside or the out - was there an explosion external. These are things that we think we know, but this would verify what we know and it's not like the metal is going to be changed.

Now, there is the concern, however, the key pieces could disappear. Imagine that if when finally a reputable and objective investigative team gets there, if ever, what if the black boxes are gone and what if some key pieces of metal that might have tell-tale signs of explosions, what if that has disappeared. Then you are right back into the middle of the cold war, 1983, Korean Airlines, 007, where the Soviets put those black boxes in a KGB vault for a decade and we didn't even see them for a long time.

So I hope that's not where we are headed here, but again, as far as I know to have an airline crash with civilians in the middle of hotly disputed territory in the middle of a war, I can't think of an instance like this.

SCIUTTO: And you know, Poppy, speaking of evidence, it reminds me of Lockerbie, as I remember.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: It was one little piece of, I think, an exploded like tape cassette recorder or something which is the key piece of information which led them to realize that it was a bomb that took that plane down. So even small pieces of evidence could make a big difference.

HARLOW: So many more questions and also, you know, I think of the black boxes, well, they're not actually black. I mean these things stand out. They are pretty bright. So would people that want them or don't want officials to have them go right after them? We will talk about that next with our experts. Mary Schiavo on the side, really wanting to weigh in here, and we will get more from you guys later.

Coming up here in the "Newsroom," it's very important that we focus on the victims, their families and those left behind. We are going to talk to Sarah Bejak (ph). She lost her partner on Malaysia Airlines flight 370. Ahead she's going to talk about the words of advice, the help that they are trying to give now to the families of the victims on board MH-17. That's straight ahead.

Also, another very important story, the death toll continues to grow in Israel and in Gaza. Could a set of tunnels be Israel's biggest threat at this point and are they expanding their ground invasion. Our experts weigh in next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Welcome back, everyone. We are going to talk more, a lot more about the victims aboard MH-17 in just a moment. First though, the latest on the conflict in the Middle East. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Poppy, two Israeli soldiers died in today's ground offensive in Gaza. The Palestinians say 11 people were killed in Gaza, pushing the overall death toll to 342. Most of those, 70 percent, civilians. Israel's main goal is destroying tunnels used by Gaza militants, 13 have been found so far. I'm joined now by Lt. Col. Rick Francona and Lt. Co. Bob Maginnis. Rick, if I can start with you. Israel says there are two main goals really in this offensive - one, the tunnels used for smuggling and attacks but also their capability to launch missiles, what do you think can be accomplished in this ground offensive and what do you think are Israel's goals before they say "Listen, we have done enough"?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, these tunnels have been very effective for Hamas, and that's how they have been moving things back and forth. They know they can't move above ground because the Israelis have great surveillance of what is going on, 24-hour night and day surveillance, so they have to go underground.

So they built this extensive network of rebarred tunnels. They are very, very good and they also tunnel under the border. So that's one of the goals the Israelis are going in to do this. If they can knock out all these tunnels, they think they can cut down the number of rockets being fired. That has not been the case so far. Hamas has been very resilient.

SCIUTTO: I have to ask you because those tunnels are easily rebuilt, and they got tens of thousands of rockets. It raises the question, how comprehensive would a victory be here, is it a matter of pushing out the length of time before Hamas can kind of regroup and fire more missiles, or is it are we looking for some sort of comprehensive victory here?

LT. COL. BOB MAGINNIS, U.S. ARMY PENTAGON CONSULTANT: I doubt they are looking for comprehensive victory, but of course you have had a couple of ministers there that have indicated that they really needed to take over all of Gaza, which would be very problematic for the Israelis, and I don't think they are going to do that. But keep in mind as Rick just pointed out, the tunnels have been there for sometime. They try to block them the best they can. But with the disarray in Egypt, having, you know, the use of the Negev to sneak all the weapons in from Sudan. And, of course, Iran is involved here because their markings are all over these rockets. Now, what we don't know and perhaps the Israelis have a better idea of how many thousands more rockets do they actually have there, where they are stored.

I suspect, knowing Hamas, that they're probably in a school yard or perhaps a hospital, that's how they operate. Of course, they have the same launch sites in those areas. So, this is problematic.

SCIUTTO: No question.

One of the issues, Rick, and I might go to you with us, is just the possibility of civilian casualties. And, so far, there have been a number, I think the figure is 70 percent of the 300 some-odd people killed up to this point in Gaza. Israeli officials constantly make the point and this is true, that these launch sites, as well as the weapons caches are hidden in very residential areas, in schools and mosques and et cetera. From your perspective, as a military man, you know the difficulty of

fighting in urban areas, and do you think Israel is doing enough to minimize civilian casualties?

FRANCONA: I think the Israelis are probably doing more than any other military force. We do pretty much the same thing. But, you know, unfortunately, Jim, this environment, this is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, and Hamas uses that to their advantage. Human shields are a way of life there, they just mix everything in, they know that the Israelis are going to strike them, the Israelis will do what they can.

But civilian casualties are just unavoidable, and once the Israelis make the decision they are underground, they have already calculated that they're going to have to live with those civilian casualties.

SCIUTTO: Robert, I wonder if I can ask you -- we talk a lot about what Israel's goals here, what's going to be victory for them. But let's talk about Hamas from a military perspective. What is it trying to accomplish here and what does it need to do or have happen before it's ready to come to the table and accept a cease-fire?

MAGINNIS: Well, certainly, if its survival is compromised or threatened, Hamas will find a way of coming to some sort of agreement with the Israelis. It has not happened yet. They want to disgrace the Israelis as much as possible. They would like to have, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood to rise up in Jordan and Egypt and elsewhere and to come to its aid.

I don't think that's going to happen because of border issues and because, General or President Sisi down in Egypt wouldn't let that happen either. But given those circumstances, Hamas is just going to try and bloody the battlefield, make the Israelis pay a high price so they don't repeat it. They did it in '07 and they will do it again if the Israelis don't do it right, and doing it right is very tough in this environment because you don't want to fill a bunch of body bags unnecessarily, and Israelis, of course, at this point, have only lost a handful of people.

So, they feel pretty good about the operations. But the Palestinians are really going to make the Israelis pay in a public relations sort of affair because it's a very bloody affair.

SCIUTTO: All right. And as you mentioned, two Israeli soldiers killed in the last 24 hours, I understand. Thanks very much, Lieutenant Colonel Bob Maginnis and Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

HARLOW: All right. Guys, thanks so much.

Now, back to the victims of MH17. It is a conversation that they never thought they would have. Families of those that disappeared on Flight 370 offering their advice to the families of another Malaysia Air tragedy. Coming up next here on CNN, Sarah Bajc is going to join. She has words for the families who lost their loved ones just this week on doomed Flight 17.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Just over four months after a Malaysia airlines plane disappeared and has yet to be found another plane from the same airline gets shot right out of the skies over Ukraine, it is a terrible coincidence. It's really almost too much for anyone to comprehend, especially the victims' families.

I want to bring in Sarah Bajc. She joins me live from Atlanta. Her partner, Philip Wood, was a passenger onboard MH370. And she has been willing to share her story with us, with our viewers throughout really this heartbreaking months, her journey.

So, I wanted to bring you in, Sarah, to talk about what your advice would be to the families now that are just learning of the loss of their loved ones?

SARAH BAJC, PARTNER OF MH37-0 PASSENGER PHILIP WOOD: There is kind of two sides to the suggestion. One would be on the emotional side, and then the other is more the practical piece.

HARLOW: Right.

BAJC: From an emotional perspective, everybody is still in shock, and that's going to last for a little while. There is -- you know, according to the psychologists, there are five stages of grieving and you go in and out of different stages.

So, you know, taking a little time to step back and understand what's going to happen to you, then when the emotions are waving through, it's a little easier to deal with it. So, you know, take that time to take care of yourself emotionally. And then physically, too -- you know, make sure you are eating and sleeping. I know it sounds silly but when you are going through a crisis like this it's easy to fall apart.

HARLOW: Yes, right.

Hw are you doing? It's been months and they still have not located MH370. How are you doing, Sarah?

BAJC: I was doing better up until a couple days ago. You know, the scar tissue was starting to heal a little bit, the rawness has worn off. But, you know, our situations are a little different. We hadn't had our chance to begin grieving yet.

And the practical matters even are very different. There is no death certificates. There's no ability to move on.

But I think for the MH17 families, you know, it's a terrible, terrible trauma. And, you know, one of the things that will really help is to talk to others that have been through this.

Within a week of 370 disappearing, many families from Air France 447 and from the 9/11 planes were already in contact with our group, with the 370 group, and it was helpful, because it just gave an expectation of what you should expect, and that made it easier. HARLOW: And no one else, frankly, can understand.

When you look at this situation on the ground, and I am not sure how much of the reporting you have seen but I know you have seen enough of it to see how these bodies are being treated. I mean, you know, our Chris Cuomo talking on the ground there and he is talking about where is the dignity, right? I mean, they are being left to lie, and many of them under their religion should have been buried in the first 24 hours, they're not getting that respect.

What do you make of this situation? It's very different than what you and those lost on 370 are going through, but what do you make of what is being played out?

BAJC: It's cleared there are people in positions of power, even if it's just that they are holding a machine gun in a field, and taking advantage of this, you know, and that's just not human. I mean, that's -- it's beyond criminal, in fact. I can't even believe that some could do that.

But, you know, the world has to put pressure here. It's not up to just that one group of people to control this. We have a lot of powerful countries around there that need to step forward and get Russia to step forward.

HARLOW: Yes, and we are certainly hearing the calls from that from the U.N. yesterday, just coming this afternoon from the Dutch prime minister, from President Obama -- we are hearing it and let's see what actually translates into action.

Thank you, Sarah, again. I, we -- all of us are so, so sorry for what you and all of those that lost those on 370 and 17 are going through. Thank you for sharing a little bit with us today.

BAJC: You are welcome.

HARLOW: All right. We are learning more about the people that died on board flight Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. We're learning their stories, where they were going, what they loved to do. We're going to tell you what their loved ones are saying and what some posted online right before the crash. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: A passenger plane shot out the sky and 298 lives lost in just seconds.

Let's bring back CNN's Laurie Segall to talk about what we're learning about these victims -- because so much of the focus of this has been obviously on the fact that it's in the warzone, the geopolitical situation around this. But what matters most is the victims, right? What are we learning in terms of online, especially things that the people posted even within that plane right before it took off?

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's so eerie looking back. I have been digging through to a lot of these folks' Facebook pages. One Dutch passenger actually posted a picture of the plane, right

before take off, if you look at the caption, it says that if it disappears this is what it looks like, and that's referring to MH370. Looking back you see what happened now.

And another person posted an Instagram video that said, the caption said #feelingalittlenervous. We get a peek of what is happening inside.

So, obviously, you look back at that and it looks pretty eerie.

HARLOW: Yes, people loading their stuff in the over head compartments, and some people don't like to fly, and I am one of them, and we are nervous.

What else do we know in terms of hearing from those loved ones left behind? Glenn Thomas, I know one you just spoke with.

SEGALL: You know, I spoke to -- so, Glenn Thomas was one of the victims and I spoke to his nephew, and I literally just got off the phone from talking to him and he was saying so much about his uncle and what a great guy he was. But I first want to tell you, he talked to me a little bit about how he found out about his uncle's death. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JORDAN WITHERS, NEPHEW OF FLIGHT 17 VICTIM: I got a call from my sister who was crying on the phone and told me to pull over in the car, and she just said, I think Uncle Glenn has gone down in a plane, and I just broke down there and then and couldn't drive. Within a period, I found out about 2:00, and up until 6:00 or 7:00 that night it was confirmed and there was always a hope that he missed the flight, he was such a frequent flyer, he's (INAUDIBLE) he was always missed flights because he was -- I guess it was like taxis for him, he used to get there just as the final call, and we were hoping he missed it.

But sadly, he was so excited to go out to Australia, he made it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Look at his smile.

SEGALL: You just can, and he told me, his favorite memory was Christmas. He opened up a box and it had letters spelled out, Disney, and the next morning, he booked a trip for the whole family to Disneyland. You can just see how much pain that family is having knowing he's not be there anymore -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Just wonderful, incredible people doing great things, and this is an absolute tragedy. Thank you for bringing us some of the stories and faces today, Laurie.

SEGALL: Sure, thank you. HARLOW: Well, as far as Malaysia Airlines, this is a company that has endured back to back catastrophes. A lot of folks want to know, can this business survive? We're going to explore that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: One of the more incredible parts of the story is the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 comes four months after another air disaster with the same carrier and the same type of play, a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777.

CNN Money's Cristina Alesci looks at whether Malaysia Airlines can survivor as a business.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CRISTINA ALESCI, CNN MONEY: Can an airline withstand a blow to its reputation even after one of its planes goes down? In most cases, the answer is yes. In fact, many airlines have endured despite crashes and even terrorists attacks.

(voice-over): While TWA folded after Flight 800 went down off the coast of Long Island in 1996, and Pan Am went bust after terrorists downed Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, those airlines were already struggling financially before the disasters.

Despite some terrible catastrophes, most other airlines are still flying today. In 1983, Soviets fighter shot down Korean Air's Flight 007. A Geneva-bound Swiss airplane crashed near Halifax, and then years later, no one survived American Airlines Flight 587 which crashed in Bell Harbor, Queens. Air France Flight 447 went down in the Atlantic Ocean while en route to Brazil in 2009.

Now, 9/11 is an extreme example. Terrorists hijacked American and United planes for the attacks. Yet, today, they are among the biggest airlines in the world, thanks in part to a financial lifeline from the U.S. government. Most airlines don't take a substantial hit to the bottom lines in the wake of crashes, insurances covers most of the cost, according to Justin Green, a lawyer with Kreindler & Kreindler. It's a firm represents victims of Pan Am 103 and 9/11.

But, what's happened to Malaysia Airlines is unprecedented.

JUSTIN GREEN, AVIATION LAW & SAFETY EXPERT: There are going to be people thinking about whether they want their children or spouse or parents to be flying on this airline, and I think that that's really -- if I was -- it's more of a public relations problem for the airline than it is a legal liability.

ALESCI: There's a good chance that it won't falter, though. At the moment, neither incident has been blamed on the airline.

GREEN: It's a state airline in many regards, and I doubt very much the government is going to let Malaysia Airlines go out of business.

ALESCI: Ticket sales my slide, but national pride may trump profits in this case.

Cristina Alesci, CNN Money, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Our thanks to Cristina Alesci for that.

Interestingly, Malaysia Airlines came out and said they will refund travelers tickets if they don't feel comfortable flying on the airline. Right now, obviously, trying to keep business is important for this airline right now.

Our thanks to Cristina for that.

Coming up next here, we are going to take a closer look at the airlines' future with our panel of aviation experts. They're going to weigh in after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Malaysia Airlines has now lost two Boeing 777s in just over four months, 537 of their customers, their employees have been killed. This question really brings up whether the airline can survive in all of this.

SCIUTTO: We're going to bring in now, CNN aviation analyst Mary Schiavo, and CNN safety analyst David Soucie, as well as our aviation analyst, Miles O'Brien who's here in D.C.

Miles, I wonder if I could start with you. Two major accidents in the span of some five months, can Malaysia airlines get past a double blow like this? And I might add, should it be able to?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it is a huge public relations and image issue, and there are some real issues about the airline that need to be looked into, but the country of Malaysia will have a flag carrier. That's not going to go away.

Will the government rename the airline? Perhaps. I mean, will this be like, you know, a change of name that changes the perception? I don't know.

I can't imagine Malaysia not having a flag carrier. So I guess the question is, there will be some sort of Malaysian airline in the future, and what will it be named is the question perhaps.

SCIUTTO: Yes, ValuJet. After the ValuJet crashed in the U.S. renamed AirTran.

Mary, I wonder if I can ask, because this goes less to the carrier than the air safety regulators. There was a warning for flights above eastern Ukraine up to 32,000 feet. This plane was flying at 33,000 feet. That's a very thin margin of error.

Do you think that there was a security failure, an FAA or international regulatory failure? MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, certainly, in retrospect, it's easy to say yes. But I find more troubling that it was also announced that Russia had closed the air route which would have been the continuation of the air route that this flight would have been using and that apparently happened hours before this flight.

And the question is why did not euro control pick up on that, why did not the airline know that or research that route, and that would also be additionally troubling. But certainly 1,000 feet, you know, if you are not on auto pilot you can make that mistake easily sometimes. So, I do not think that was enough for a margin of error and why didn't they know about the Russian routes being closed?

SCIUTTO: Well, thanks very much for joining us now. We're going to keep the panel.