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Crash Scene is in Volatile Rebel Held Area; Relative Remembers Couple Aboard Flight 17; Will MH17 Shift Russia's Relationship with World; Obama's Handling of MH17 Tragedy, Russia/Ukraine Crisis; MH17 Has Congress Reconsidering Russian Sanctions

Aired July 19, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Here in the CNN NEWSROOM, I am Poppy Harlow in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I am Jim Sciutto in Washington.

HARLOW: All right. In far Eastern Ukraine tonight, the bodies of many of the victims from MH-17 are still lying where they fell more than two days since the airliner they were travelling on was shut right on of the sky. International investigators are only beginning, beginning to reach the place where all of this wreckage is strewn over miles and miles. It's an unstable dangerous part of the world right now, especially right now when Ukraine's separatists conflict is raging on. Pressure right now from the globe on Russia believed to be holding the strings to the rebels, at least politically operating there on the ground.

The United States, Britain and now the Netherlands all demanding that Russia get those rebel groups in check and at least allow all of the investigators that need to get there to access the site. We know the Netherlands has said just recently in the last few hours that they have not been granted access to the site, and they, of course, have the majority of the casualties in all of this.

Our Phil Black today got close to the pieces of the plane which fell across the very wide area. He has some interesting perspective that only he can see there on the ground. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is where the MH-17 scarred the earth with the biggest force and heat. The wreckage that struck here was big. Both of the Boeing's 777 engines and wings, it's likely this where the fuel burned off as well. The blaze so intent. Metal components melted into the ground. Down the road, other big pieces of the aircraft mark the founding landscape, but the smaller debris here also holds real power. Some, the commonplace positions of travelers everywhere, but there is also the more personal, giving little insights into the lives of those who fell with the plane.

These were people from around the world, with no connection to Ukraine's conflict, but their bodies now lie across this war zone. Their positions are marked by sticks and white cloth, most of the injuries are too terrible to show or even talk about. Pro-Russian militants are in control here and some show curiosity, but there's no obvious intention of quickly the bodies or securing the aircraft. This is a strange and eerie experience, walking through the debris field of a passenger jet, the remains of its crew and passengers are everywhere, and yet there is no one here trying to work out what happened, no one here trying to take responsibility for this.

The militants' leaders say, they are deliberately not altering the site so it remains intact to Ukrainian and international experts to inspect. They are blaming the central government in Kiev for not getting those experts here sooner, and until both sides act together there can be little dignity for the flight MH-17 victims. Phil Black, CNN, in Eastern Ukraine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Our thanks to Phil for his reporting on the ground throughout this. Well, European officials the crash site called that part of Eastern Ukraine the world's biggest crime scene. It is also one of the world's most dangerous crime scenes, certainly at this moment. Right in the middle of an explosive and unstable cross border armed conflict.

I want to bring in former Inspector General of the U.S. Transportation Department Mary Schiavo. She's joined by David Soucie, former FAA safety inspector, we've got military analyst Colonel Rick Francona with us. And in Washington of course our aviation analyst Miles O'Brien.

David, I want to get to you first. How on earth can the investigators do an investigation once by the way, many of them get there, they are not even allowed there yet many of them, how can they do this in a conflict zone and with some being blocked off by rebel forces?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: It has to be secured and this is a large area to secure. Somebody has to go in and assure their safety. There's not just one accident site. It's a six-mile area where you have multiple accidents sights.

HARLOW: Who does that? I mean, you've got -- this was a battleground before.

SOUCIE: Yes, it was.

HARLOW: So who comes in? An outside force?

SOUCIE: So now, I think it has to be an outside force. I think the U.N. needs to say, we have to do this. They have control over not only the aviation arm which is the ICAO which sets the rules by which this investigation goes on, but they also have some forces that can be put in place.

HARLOW: So, to you Colonel Francona, how realistic is that?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I don't think it is. I mean, ideally that's what you want to do. The problem is the people that control the ground are the ones we suspect of doing this, so they have no reason to cooperate, because cooperation will probably lead to their condemnation. So, I don't think we're going to see any immediate resolution to this, and the problem is all of this degrades over time.

HARLOW: Right. Absolutely. Jim, let's get to you in Washington.

SCIUTTO: Well, I want to throw a question to Bob Baer, because it strikes me that it's already pretty clear to many what happened here, the plane was shot down and where it was shot down from, and that this now becomes a politically influenced investigation, you have Russia saying we want it to be unbiased, we have the west saying, it wants to be unbiased but everybody has a bias about where this is going, and it seems like the investigation now is going to quickly going into the political realm and kind of a propaganda battle over even just the facts, right? I mean, does that strike you as the next step?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: You know, Jim, this comes as a chapter right out of the cold war. You look at Chernobyl explosion, it took the Russians forever to admit facts we know. And there had been explosion. A nuclear explosion. In the same way, the Korean airliner shot down over the ocean in 1983. You go on and on, you see Putin, an old line KGB officer, is going to go into denial and stick there. And I do not see him cooperating at any level otherwise he would have done it now. I mean, we're going into day three almost, and we see nothing coming out of Moscow that would suggest that they are going to help on this.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: You know, Poppy, it's just incredible to think about that, because until a year or so or a few months ago before this Ukraine crisis, Russia was now a partner of the west.

HARLOW: Right. Right.

SCIUTTO: And to hear not just cold war rhetoric going back and forth, but the return of cold war behavior, you know, these were entering a very different period, U.S./Russian relations, European/Russian relations, huge ramifications.

HARLOW: No question about that. I mean, if you parse the words from the few statements that we've gotten from Vladimir Putin on it, you know, you have to go through them with a very fine-toothed comb obviously pointing a finger of responsibility at Ukraine, but there is so much more than that. Obviously also people wanting to go find out the legitimacy of that video and of that audio reportedly from pro- Russian rebels. But many, many questions remain in terms of the evidence, and what that can tell us, Jim, right?

Let's go to Miles O'Brien, in terms of the evidence, Miles, how critical do you think that the black box is in terms of getting some answers here and other parts of the physical plane that remain?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, it's important, but, again, it's not this giant mystery, and not this giant who done it. We have a lot of evidence outside of the wreckage, outside of the black boxes, which has led us to a pretty strong area of -- you could almost put it in the realm of a conclusion as to what happened here. We have the heat signature of the missile, we know where it was launched from, and the radar signature of the device itself, the BUK, the video of a BUK leaving the zone minus one missile.

All of those layers lead to you a pretty inescapable conclusion. Having said that, there are a lot of details which we like to fill in here. And there is another piece that's on the ground as well which we should consider we haven't heard, the air traffic control tapes, what warnings if anything were issued. Back and forth between the controllers and the crew. When the crew decided to apparently deviate around some thunderstorms and dead headed to the north, were they aware of what they were getting into?

Had they been properly briefed about that? And what did the airline consider given the fact that there were four shootdowns in the past month as it flew into this zone. So, there are a lot of things that are outside of that, however, it would be of interest and would provide conclusive forensic evidence as to what happened to actually lay hands on that wreckage, look at the residue that caused the explosion, figure out what failed when it failed and what the conversations of the crew was on board.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: You know, Poppy, Miles makes a great point here, and it strikes me in kind of law and order terms, that you know, the police kind of know what happened here and now it's in the realm of the prosecutor building its case that they can make in a court of law or a court of international court of public opinion. I wonder if Mary Schiavo has a thought on how that plays out. Because, you know, you will going to have to, you know, to build a case here in effect through the wreckage and the bodies and the residue et cetera. To build-up, to back up the theory as to what happened.

HARLOW: Yes.

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Exactly, and building from the experience of PAN AM 103, there they had 1000 investigators, there were 40 countries involved, there were 15,000 interviews, but the point there was to bring the guilty to justice. They knew what had happened of actually from a clue the size of a fingernail, but it was important to bring them to justice, and it took not one decade but two decades, and same thing here, all that information will lead up. And remember, in the shoot down of 007 back in '83, both engines were still operating, and the plane did continue and the pilots and everybody were alive for a while, very short while, so that would be on the cockpit voice recorder, too if the same happened here.

HARLOW: And we will see if there is anything on this cockpit voice recorder if indeed it's found. It has been two days now and it has not been found, at least by authorities that we know of. Thank you to all of you, our experts here and obviously in L.A. and in D.C. Thank you. SCIUTTO: And either mentioning, a piece of evidence the size of a

fingernail was the key in the Lockerbie tragedy, and looking the way that scene is being handled there, not a lot of pieces of evidence that smaller, even bigger, you know, are getting the treatment they need at this point.

HARLOW: Right. I mean, we were seeing video earlier of some people in army fatigues literally throwing, you know, remnants into a big dumpster. That is not how you handle a crime scene at all.

SCIUTTO: No question. Amazing.

We have a lot more questions to do and our panel will be back. The rebels may have pulled the trigger but it's Russia who many blame for this tragedy. Are both now working together to cover up what was done? That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, the crime scene of down Malaysia flight 17 being called one of the biggest, if not the biggest in the world right now.

SCIUTTO: But why we wait for hard answer, should there be any suspicion about how quickly evidence pointing blame at Russia surface. And the sheer amount of evidence in the form of photos and audio released by Ukrainian intelligence.

We want to bring back Colonel Francona and Linda Kinstler, managing editor, the New Republic. Also along with the director of the CSIS Europe Program Heather Conley, she is a former deputy assistant secretary of state for Europe and National Security analyst Bob Baer, former CIA operative.

Heather, I wonder if I could bring with you because I think I imagine this is a question a lot of our viewers have. You know, the U.S. is assigning blame to Russia, if not for pulling the trigger on the missile for supporting the rebels who pulled the trigger on the missile. Is there any reason that Russia would want or intend to shoot down a civilian airliner?

HEATHER CONLEY, DIRECTOR, CSIS EUROPE PROGRAM: No, this is an unintended consequence of a crisis that is now a global crisis. President Putin and the Russian government has been providing very sophisticated weapons and aid to this pro-Russian separatists. We know there had to be very sophisticated training given to these rebels by Russian Spetsnaz, the Russian Special Forces. So there is absolutely a very strong role that Russia has played in aiding and abetting these separatists.

The fact that this SA-17 has been used in a fact now that we have continued to see tanks, artillery crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border over the last several days leads us to the conclusion, and certainly what President Obama said the other day. It is clear that Russia has aided and abetted the separatists, and now the question is what are we going to do about it? How are we going to, both, punish and continue to punish the Russian government and how are we going to help the Ukrainians remain and be able to control their own territory?

SCIUTTO: No question. It's a big question. And will Europe and the U.S. come together on tough sanctions against Russia? Bob, I wonder you brought up a good point a few moments ago. That in the past, and again we are talking cold war behavior, but low and behold, the cold war behavior has returned. Chernobyl happens, Russia took years to, you know, claim any responsibility in the flight 007. The murder of Lithanuanko (ph) in London where Russian agents were involved in, do you put it past Russia to try to hide and cover up what happened here?

BAER: Oh, Jim, I think almost definitely they are going to. They know that they are partly responsible for this. I agree that they didn't do it on purpose, it was an accident. They probably thought they were going after a Ukrainian transport airplane. But right now they don't want the evidence out, but more than that, they don't end to give up the Eastern Ukraine, they're going to obfuscate as much as they can on this, blame the Ukrainian government, claim it's all politics, and don't forget internally, the Russian right wants to hold on to the Eastern Ukraine and they are going to push Putin to do everything he can and just sort of ignore this. So, I don't think we're going to ever see any decent evidence. And remember, this intercepts provided by the Ukrainians and these pictures are not real evidence. I spent a couple of years working in the Hague, on assassination case, it just can't be used as evidence. I mean so we're in the dark, still where to go with this.

SCIUTTO: And you know, Poppy, Russia is already pushing back on the story line creating a whole host of stories. There was even a story on Russian media about this being an attempt on Vladimir Putin's life, because his plane was in the area supposedly around at the same time.

HARLOW: Right. And that's what a lot of Russian media outlets we're seeing in the hours after the tragic incident on Thursday.

Let me get to you, Colonel Francona, because when you talk about the strength of pro-Russian rebels on the ground there in Eastern Ukraine right now, there is no doubt, in anyone's mind, they have full political support from Moscow, and of course it depends on what side you ask whether they have military support from Moscow. Let's say that Vladimir Putin does come in line somewhat with global pressure right now. And lessons any military support that may have been going their way. How can the rebels progress in terms of their angle without as much support from Moscow?

FRANCONA: Well, they can't. And that will be the key. It will be -- what Putin decides to do will be the key to their survival.

HARLOW: With what they already have.

FRANCONA: With what they already have, they can probably hold on. But at some point, the Ukrainians are going to overwhelmed, if they don't have the constant resupply and support from the Russians, their supplies will start to dwindle and they will start losing people and if they don't get support from across the border, eventually Ukrainians will emerge victorious.

HARLOW: Did you see it as the tipping point?

FRANCONA: I don't think Vladimir Putin is going to give up -- I agree with Bob on this. I think Putin will push into a corner, will double down. We are going back to the cold war.

HARLOW: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Linda, I want to ask you, lots of strong words and reaction to this, there's talk of new sanctions, but in fact since the start of the Ukraine crisis, there have been strong words from the west, from the President, there have been sanctions, basic question, does Putin care -- does Putin care about, you know, international reaction to this or even economic sanctions?

LINDA KINSTLER, MANAGING EDITOR, NEW REPUBLIC: I think the most important thing to remember about all of this, and this has been true all along, is that the most important thing to Putin is insuring that Ukraine does not have a successful popular revolution, that they do not have a democratically elected new president, which they have now in Petro Poroshenko, and part of the rebel reaction that we have seen in Eastern Ukraine is geared towards making sure the anti-terrorist operation that Poroshenko has manned is unsuccessful.

HARLOW: So to keep disarray?

KINSTLER: Exactly. And that is certainly ongoing now.

HARLOW: We appreciate all of you. Thank you, guys, for coming in. Our thanks to all of you. Stick with us, we will get back to you in just a moment.

Also now, hundreds of families are deep in mourning, of course, after this attack, grieving and wrestling with what comes next. We're going to speak to the brother with one of the victims, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: We are learning more about the people, the 298 souls who were onboard flight 17. Two of them are Arjen Ryder and his wife Yvonne. They were visiting their family in the Netherland. Arjen brother Drew Ryder joins me now on the phone. First of all Drew, I know you're at a family meeting in Minnesota and thank you for coming on and talking about your brother and his wife. Our condolences to your entire family.

DREW RYDER, BROTHER OF MH-17 VICTIM (on the phone): Thank you.

HARLOW: Let's talk about your brother, what it was about him? I think we have some images that we can show as well to really put the face on him and Yvonne but what it is that you want people to remember? There we go. What is it that you want people to remember about them?

RYDER: Well, they were both incredible people. Very generous. Incredible family people. They had three kids that they just adored, and five grandkids, and he was my oldest brother. He was kind of the leader in the family, and just a great husband to Yvonne. They will be missed with the example they set both in their marriage and in the community.

HARLOW: I know you said that your brother was a big adventure. Tell us what he liked to do.

RYDER: He was a big cyclist. He loved his bike. He was thinking about the Tour de France this year, and that was one thing he did and he was into yachting. Just lots of things which involved exercise and being outdoors.

HARLOW: When one of the incredible things that we have heard from you throughout this -- I know you were speaking with our Anderson Cooper last night, is so much finger-pointing is going on right now, so many people looking for where to place their blame and their anger. That is not what you are interested in, is it?

RYDER: No, it isn't. That really comes back to the fact that I, myself, and Arjen and our entire family are strong Christians and in that faith we believe in forgiveness and even though terrible things get done to us by different people, we feel that we need to forgive them for what they have done and there is nothing to be gained to seek revenge.

HARLOW: Well, that is an outlook that is very hard for most people to take. I am very sorry. We are all so so sorry for your loss. Thank you for sharing a little bit with us today about your brother Arjen and his wife, Yvonne. We will remember them, the world will remember them. Thank you, Drew.

RYDER: Thank you.

HARLOW: Meantime, a senior U.S. official tells CNN the outrage over this is so deep, and the evidence is so damning Russia will have a hard time explaining this away. That's what one person is saying. So, how will the international community continue to respond? We will ask our panel next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back, I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. A senior U.S. State Department official tells CNN that the MH-17 tragedy is quote, "a game changer in world relations with Russia." The leaders of Ukraine, Malaysia, the U.S. and Britain are all demanding Russia take action. But the strongest most emotional words so far have come from the Netherlands, the home avoided half of the victims on the doomed flight. The Dutch prime minister spoke out after he had a conversation with Russian President Vladimir Putin. Have a listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK RUTTE, DUTCH PRIME MINISTER (through translation): It is absolutely necessary and the very first priority that the recovery of the victims will take place as soon as possible. Everyone that won't fully and directly cooperate now leaves a very serious suspicion upon himself. I am shocked by the images of the totally disrespectful behavior at the site. Against all rules of careful investigation, it seems that there are people who are rummaging through the personal and recognizable belongings of the victims. This is down-right disgusting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: How quickly and how severely could this disaster shift the relationship between Russia and the world?

I want to bring in CNN foreign affairs correspondent, Elise Labott. And we have CNN military analyst, Rick Francona; "New Republic" managing editor, Linda Kinstler; CNN aviation analyst, Mary Schiavo; and CNN national security analyst, Bob Baer, also a former CIA operative.

Elise, I wonder if I could start to you.

Secretary of State John Kerry in his call to the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov today, he demanded again a cease-fire. This is a demand the U.S. officials have made of Russia before this crash for weeks, and it has not happened. What is different now? How much more leverage does the U.S. have now, if at all?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, thing are different now since the plane crash, Jim. It's not just the United States talking about Russia interfering in Ukraine. You have 11 nations with casualties, with their citizens, and the U.S. is taking the lead, along with some of the Europeans, like Germany, in terms of dealing with the Russians. But this is a much tougher message from the secretary now. Not only do you need to have a cease-fire, but you need to put pressure on these separatists, and you need allow unfettered access to investigators, stop tampering with the evidence and bodies, don't tamper with the evidence. And beyond that, stop the flow of arms, these type of things. And right now, everybody is pointing suspicion at Russia. But as the investigation becomes more full and the results become more clear, U.S. officials are telling me they think it's going to be harder for President Putin to keep defending his support for the separatists.

SCIUTTO: One thing that's been a challenge so far for Obama and Secretary of State John Kerry as they try to build support for further sanctions for Russia, even before the crash, European support, Germany, will Germany come on board? Another comment from the prime minister of the Dutch, he said, "The opportunity expires to show the world that he's serious about helping." This is to Putin. Those are very strong words from the Dutch prime minister, but we have not heard that from Germany. Do you have any sense that the Europeans will come on board now, particularly in light of the fact that there were many Europeans killed on this flight.

LABOTT: I think they are starting to come along. I think as you see not just the leaders, but these are leaders with the coalitions, many of them, with coalition governments. You are going to have opposition politicians, and you are going to have publics calling on the leaders to take a harder line. And I think President Obama put it clearly yesterday when he spoke out. He said, this should be a wake-up call for Europe, that this is not a localized conflict. This is now -- has national ramifications, and I think that Europe can not longer this may be in our backyard, now they are being affected. And the question is, which is more important, the threat that this could have for their own citizens and their own countries or their pocket books? Clearly, a lot of the countries have economic interests with Russia. The Dutch, in particular, one of the things the leadership was saying from the Netherlands was that Russia is one of the biggest trading partners. They are treading carefully here. But I think, as their citizens are calling for more action by the government, it's going to be hard to have their head in the sand.

SCIUTTO: It's something European nations have more than the U.S. does. They have much stronger, more valuable trading relationships with the Russians.

Linda Kinstler, I wonder if I can bring you in here.

What is going to move Russia? The U.S. has tried sanctions on individuals and they raised the bar a bit this week with sanctions on a couple companies and banks. What truly hits Vladimir Putin hard enough to make him pull back, in effect, from eastern Ukraine?

LINDA KINSTLER, MANAGING EDITOR, NEW REPUBLIC: Well, I think that what we have seen so far is that both Putin and Obama have been calling for a cease-fire and for the cessation of the anti-terrorist operation in the east, and this happened just as Ukraine was preparing to attack Donetsk. And I think if the Ukrainian army went through with what they were planning for Donetsk, which would have been a major military operation, that would force Russia's hand in having them come out decidedly for or against the separatists.

SCIUTTO: Bob Baer, I wonder if I could ask you to play intelligence analyst on this now. Let's say -- and the signs seem to point to this being a mistake, they thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military transport, they get a civilian plane, with all the repercussions that we are talking about here -- could this be, in effect, a turning point where the rebels, who were already on their back foot a bit here, lose support among the local population, and even perhaps lose support from their chief supporter, Vladimir Putin? Could this be a small positive, in a way, in that it's the beginning of the end for this pro-Russian insurgency there?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I don't think so, because the insurgency is based on deep roots. This is eastern Ukraine. And it's very close to Russia. In a sense, the Ukrainian borders are artificial. These people have looked to Moscow for centuries, rather than Rome when it comes to religion. I think there is strong support. And I think there is strong support in Russia, as well. I think that Putin probably recognizes it's a huge setback, the shoot-down of the airline. But on the other hand -- and let's not forget, he has weapons as well. The Europeans are reluctant to get into this because, if for no other reason than gas shipments that come across Ukraine. I mean, Putin has the ability to turn off the electricity in Europe. So there's a lot of factors at play out before Europe joins us in strong sanctions that would force Putin to pull back. SCIUTTO: Yeah, and it would take years for Europe to get off that

dependency on Russia natural gas.

Thanks very much to Bob Baer, Linda, Mary Schiavo and Elise Labott. Thanks to all of you for joining us. We're going to have you back.

Tomorrow morning, on topic, a CNN exclusive, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry talks with our own Candy Crowley about the crash investigation and the ramifications for U.S. relations with Russia. You will see it on "State of the Union" on Sunday at 9:00 a.m. right here on CNN.

Now, the White House doesn't have many options in the crisis, but some say the president is not doing enough to confront Russia yet. Is that criticism fair? We're going to break that question down with our guests right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everyone. I am Poppy Harlow in New York.

How about this question? How has President Obama responded in the face of the tragedy of flight MH17? Some critics have argued he's been a little bit too cool, at least in his initial response.

I want to talk about it. We're going to brig Jim back in from D.C. Also let's talk about the president's handling of all this with Marc Lamont Hill and Amy Holmes. Amy Holmes is the anchor of the "Hot List" on theblaze.com.

Marc, to you first.

You have been a supporter of the president. What do you make of his reaction? Somebody said, on Thursday, maybe he was perhaps a little bit too cool and collected, and Friday, harsh words from the president. An outrage of unspeakable proportions, he said on Friday, and he said we know the separatists received a steady flow of support from Russia, including, he said, training, heavy arms and weapons and anti-aircraft weapons. What do you make of his response?

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN COMMENTATOR: He is right on both counts. On the first day, the president said, look, this may have been an awful tragedy. Were those the perfect words? No. We knew about 300 people had been killed.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: Yeah. So wicked words from the president. He could have used more careful words. But ultimately he spoke -- he didn't want to say too much. Joe Biden came out and said, oh, it was Russia. He made it much more clear in direct statements, which is what Joe Biden does.

HARLOW: I was just going say, surprising. LAMONT HILL: It's Uncle Joe. But then, by Saturday, President Obama did exactly what he should do. He went from simply remarking on the tragedy to talking about the foreign policy implications, warning European leaders that they have to take a hand in helping not to bring down Russia but to tamp Russia down.

HARLOW: To Amy: Do you think that we should have heard even more pointed words from President Obama, perhaps speaking through these corridors directly to Vladimir Putin --

(CROSSTALK)

AMY HOLMES, HOT LIST ANCHOR, THEBLAZE.COM: I think on the day of the tragedy that he was roundly criticized, that he was glib. He gave very short remarks, less than 30 seconds. He said it may have been a tragedy. I understand the president, at that point, isn't pointing fingers and doesn't want to get ahead of the facts. And we assume there are back-door channels between the White House and Vladimir Putin and Ukraine and all the interested parties. But that very first day, I thought his response was inappropriate. He went on to make jokes. He is in Delaware. And Joe Biden stayed. He went on to two more fundraisers. We know the president to fundraisers after the attack on Benghazi. It seemed to be a lack of seriousness and focus, but he did improved 24 hours later when he gave a fuller response.

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Let's get Jim in here, too.

We have to talk about not only words, Jim, but also actions. Amy is talking about the president should have maybe cancelled those fundraisers.

HOLMES: I think he should have. I have seen commentary saying he should have cancelled the fundraisers and rescheduled them. And I understand they are big-ticket events, $32,000 a plate, but these are folks that will show up when the president calls.

HARLOW: Jim?

SCIUTTO: I wonder if we can get to the strategy beyond the optics. The president's strategy since the start of the Ukraine crisis has been strong words, plus, in the words of U.S. officials, raising the costs for Vladimir Putin to change his behavior. Neither of those things have worked. Russia has continued to operate in eastern Ukraine, and support the rebels and, in fact, escalate rather than de- escalate by sending them heavier weapons, including the weapons that brought this plane down. I just wonder, one -- and I would ask this of Mark and Amy -- has the president's strategy failed, and what can he do now in light of the greater tragedy to have a successful strategy to change Russia's behavior?

LAMONT HILL: I think that's the right question and it's important to move beyond the optics. Again, we could mix words with the president all day and night about Thursday, but the fundamental question is can we impose economic sanctions on Russia and can we create a significantly hostile environment for Russia to not to want to continue to arm rebels in Ukraine? The answer is yes, but it's not something the U.S. can do unilaterally. It's something that will require a considerable amount of European influence and European support.

HOLMES: But in answer to the question, these tactics, to a point, have failed. Russia has 12,000 troops amassed at the border. Even Samantha Powers, speaking at the U.N. Security Council Meeting, said in terms of the missile being fired at the passenger jet, it could certainly only have happened with Russian support and even Russian personnel that might have been guiding that missile themselves. Clearly, the president's strategy with regards to the Ukraine failed, and the conflict continues, and now to even a greater tragedy.

LAMONT HILL: I think it's too early to say it failed. I think there are --

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: There are 298 people dead.

LAMONT HILL: That's an awful tragedy, and I am not suggesting that's a success. But what I'm saying --

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: -- pro-Russian separatists who shot that missile. Here we are, how many months later, after another one of President Obama's red lines?

LAMONT HILL: I think when we talk about foreign policy, there is always a progression of things we must do. We saw this with Syria and Libya, and we saw it in Iran.

(CROSSTALK)

LAMONT HILL: We saw a string of -- again, I agree. I have significant critiques of the president in Syria. I am not defending the president with Syria, because he went beyond the red line. But establishing the red line was significant. You can't just step in like a cowboy and do everything first. You have to come in and establish standards and establish red lines.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: -- have real consequences. And, unfortunately, on the world stage, I think what we are seeing is a lot of the America's enemies, see when the president draws that red line, it moves and moves. And we now have --

(CROSSTALK)

HARLOW: Guys, I wish we had the rest of the hour, but we don't. We have much more news to get to. But thank you for the thoughtful insight from the both of you. We appreciate it very much, from both Jim and I. Thank you to both of you.

Coming up next, I want to get a quick preview in of what will come at the top of the hour at 6:00 p.m. on "Sermconish."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, HOST, SMERCONISH: New developments in the crash of MH flight 17 and the ground incursion in Gaza. We will have reports from Ukraine and Israel. We'll talk with the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. Is Vladimir Putin to blame for the loss of 289 innocent lives? If so, will the U.S. do anything about it? That's coming up at the top of the hour -- Poppy?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You don't want to miss it. "Smerconish" coming up here in a just a few moments.

Thank you for that.

Meantime, there has been some very tough talk in Congress about how to handle Russia and the pro-Russian rebels, but what are lawmakers really prepared to do about it? We will ask one congressman next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: The downing of the Malaysia Airliner has members of Congress here in the U.S. reconsidering policies towards Russia, including potential, new, more severe sanctions.

I want to bring in Congressman Adam Schiff. He's a Democrat from California, joining us from California. He's also a senior member of the House Intelligence Committee. And he travelled to Ukraine earlier this year to see the situation on the ground first-hand.

Congressman, just an amazing series of events that have happened in Ukraine leading up to the crash now. I want to ask you, can U.S./Russia relations survive this?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, they are going to survive but they are going to get worse before they get better. It is hard to see, with Putin in office -- and he's going to be there for quite a while -- of things are ever getting back to where they might have been under Medvedev. That is a shame but we have to recognize we have, in Russia, the leader we have. That is just going to be a fact of life.

But I think this latest catastrophe ought to get Europe to join us in a much stiffer round of sanctions. This really ought to steal their will to do so. And if this doesn't, I don't know what will.

One thing I'm concerned about, Jim, this investigation, as important as it is for bringing to justice those who pulled the trigger and issues like compensation, we can't allow the length of this investigation to delay us from taking action. And I can see Moscow using this as a pretext to say, not so fast, don't do anything, let's wait to see where the facts are. We know enough about the facts already.

SCIUTTO: Very tempting to drag this out. You can see, as you see, the steps being taken.

How do you rate the president's strategy so far? Because the president's strategy has been, as we said in the past segment, strong words and gradually raising the cost for Russia until it changes its behavior. There has been escalation, not de-escalation, including sending more heavier weapons to the rebels, including the weapons that took down this plane. Has the president's policy failed in Ukraine?

SCHIFF: No, I don't think so. If you measure it by, are the Russians out of Crimea, has the conflict ended, then any policy is a failure. If you measure it by the fact that the Russians didn't invade other parts of Ukraine and the Russian economy is suffering under the sanctions and Russia has resorted, instead of this overt military action to a lesser engagement, then it is at least partially successful.

(CROSSTALK)

SCIUTTO: Congressman Schiff, to be fair, that is a pretty low bar for success. No invasion of eastern Ukraine, but you have pro-Russian rebels controlling areas in Ukraine, including the area where the plane went down and 298 people died on that plane.

SCHIFF: Well, over the last weeks, controlling fewer and fewer areas as the Ukrainian military finds its feet and has pushed the rebels out of many areas. Jim, I'm not saying this can be declared a complete success. But we have to remember the limitations we are operating under. No one is willing to go to war over this. Nobody wants American boots on the ground. That presents real limited options. We can push the Russians out if we are willing to go to war over it.

But if we are not, then we have to ask, are we getting results for the policies that are within reason and within contemplation. I think the answer is yes. But I also think the sanctions are going to have to be stiffened and strengthened. At the end of the day, the only thing that Putin respects is strength. And I give the president credit. He was out there upping the ante and raising the sanctions before this plane went down. He didn't wait for the latest catastrophe.

But we have not had the same success in pushing Europeans to join us. And I hope that this tragedy will catalyze them into action. Because I think, at the end of the day, Jim, the only way to get real success, along the lines you are talking about, which is end of the Russian provocation to support these rebels, is with really stiff economic penalties.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Schiff, please stay with us. After this break, I am going to come back to you for another question.

Viewers, please stay with us, as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back.

We are joined going by Congressman Adam Schiff, with the House Intelligence Committee.

You made a great point, Congressman, just before the break that short of U.S. boots on the ground, which no one is talking about, that U.S. leverage against Russia is limited. What can the U.S. do now, short of that, that will change Russia's behavior? If you were writing the policy memo for the president, what would you tell him, recommend for him to do?

SCHIFF: I think the most effective thing is trying to corral our European allies to step up the economic pressure. The only other option we haven't deployed yet is escalating our support for Ukraine militarily. We are providing them a lot of economic support and intelligence support, and some are calling for military support. There is a risk though, if we go too far in that direction, we escalate the crisis rather than try to contain it. But I think we can explore other ways that we can help Ukraine militarily without getting into sophisticated weapons systems. Things that would help them logistically and help them deal with problems created by the separatists. So that's another option. But frankly, had we done what people were advocating early on, providing major weapons to Ukraine, I think the situation would be worse and not better. There's no way I think that would have resulted in Putin backing off. If anything, it probably would have provoked him further. So the most powerful tool we have remains the economy. We really have the potential, if Europe is willing to work with us, to bring Russia's economy to its knees.

SCIUTTO: The world will certainly be watching as the U.S. and Europe react to this.

Congressman Adam Schiff, thanks very much.

I'm Jim Sciutto, in Washington.

"SMERCONISH" starts right now, after this break.