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Shot Down Malaysia 17; Interview With Senator Dan Coats of Indiana; The Politics of Putin on Ukraine; Looking at the Lives of MH- 17 Victims

Aired July 19, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Russia's president pointing his finger at Ukraine, but not many people buy that.

Two questions hang over the tragedy, who and why?

Nearly since the plane vanished from radar, many have pointed fingers at pro-Russian rebels. Is this the smoking gun?

Video released by Ukrainian intelligence of an anti-aircraft battery, driving off with one missile apparently missing. Was it the one that brought Flight 17 crashing down?

The second question, why? Was it all a mistake?

Ukraine says this proves it was the work of rebels.

"MAJOR": Well, we are 100 percent sure that it was a civilian plane.

"GREEK": Are there a lot of people?

"MAJOR": (EXPLETIVE DELETED)! The debris was falling straight into the yards.

HARLOW: But learning who did this or why won't bring back the victims, 298 souls gone, leaving behind hundreds of grieving families.

You'll hear those victims' stories and a sharp debate over who did this and what it means this hour, only on CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: An absolute tragedy. And right now, as we speak, many of the people who were on the doomed airliner, their remains are still on the ground there in eastern Ukraine, uncollected and unclaimed. CNN crews and other witnesses there tell us that the recovery operation is just a mess. It's not clear who is in charge or what is happening next -- unfocused, unsecure and really without, as I said, anyone in charge.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: No question. At the same time, international reaction, as you just saw, Western leaders are demanding Russia get those rebel groups in line. One U.S. senator has had enough of what he sees as Russia's aggression and has introduced resolution to punish Russia.

Senator Dan Coats, Indiana Republican, said this recently, quote, "When you have a bully in the playground, you've got to stand up to him. You can't sit there and calculate the potential economic risk."

Obviously, a criticism of the Obama administration policy, so far.

On the phone with me now, we have the man behind those words, Senator Dan Coats.

Senator, I want to see -- you said you want to kick Russia out of the G-8. You want to close U.S. consulates there. I mean, these are tough words.

Looking at Russia's behavior since the crash, its denial of involvement and, in fact, mounting evidence that Russia supplied weapons systems to the rebels who shot the plane down. Has this done anything to change your mind? Or are you more resolved now, I imagine, to take these steps?

SEN. DAN COATS (R), INDIANA (via telephone): Now, I'm even more resolved. What Russia had done to Crimea, what the disturbances that they are fomenting in eastern Ukraine, they are going to keep doing things like this if we don't stand up to them.

Now, this is really a defining moment for the E.U. Let me say this -- we need to verify and prove that Russia had some role in this effort here. They are the ones that sort of lit the fires in eastern Ukraine and supplying the weapons. Their proxies may have been responsible. That still makes Russia complicit.

So, I think they need to pay a very heavy price for what they have done previously and what their role might be here. Obviously, we want to verify that first. I have been calling in tough sanctions for quite some time on the basis that Russia has been the aggressor and Russia holds the responsibility to settle this thing down if they chose to do so.

SCIUTTO: The question, Senator Coats, is what's going to make a difference here. The U.S. and Europe, they've used modest sanctions to this point. They've certainly used very public condemnation.

I want you to listen to what Congressman Adam Schiff said to us a few moments ago, Democratic congressman, member of the House Intelligence Committee. He's raising the question about whether it is time to help Ukraine militarily.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: The only other option that we haven't employed is escalating our support for Ukraine militarily. We are providing them a lot of economic support. We're providing them intelligence support, and some are calling for military support.

There is a risk, though, that if we go too far in that direction, we escalate the crisis rather than try to contain it. But I think we can explore other ways to help Ukraine militarily without getting into sophisticated weapons systems, things that would help them logistically, things that would help them deal with some of the problems created by the separatists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Senator Coats, to this point, the military support for Ukraine has been simple sort of supplies, of electronic generators, bullet proof vests, et cetera. Do you think the U.S. should be considering real weapons, even the possibility of heavy weapons to right the balance between the Ukrainian military and pro-Russian rebels which are armed by Russia?

COATS: Well, depending on Russia's response to this and verification we are looking for I think that ought to be on the table to be considered.

What has been done to date with some of the sanctions is far too little and far too late. We have not taken a strong lead. The Europeans have not taken a strong lead in terms of imposing economic sanctions to cripple the Russian economy.

We need to drive down their stock market. We need to stop their exports of arms. We need to stop -- find ways to bypass their export of energy to Europe.

I think it's a defining moment for Europe. You are going to sit back and let Russia nibble away piece after piece of Eastern Europe as long as no one stands up to them and really makes them pay a price it's going to continue.

So, I would rather see them step up now on tough sanctions, particularly economic sanctions, and we can weigh what we can do or what we might need to do in terms of giving more support to the Ukrainian army.

HARLOW: Senator Coats, Poppy Harlow here in New York, on the point of economic sanctions, what we know is clear the sanctions that have been stepped up by President Obama this administration clearly haven't made a dent to Russia in terms of it almost fortified their will. I will say, though, it is very different for European countries in terms of the economic impact they face if they do agree to significantly ratchet up sanctions along with the United States.

How do you think the U.S. Congress and president can persuade Europe to get on board with that, given what we know economically can do to them?

COATS: Well, the president and I know has been in touch with European leaders. But Europe needs to make a decision as to how it is going to respond to this. They would like to do it with us. And I think if we can get agreement on much tougher sanctions imposed on Russia, particularly on the economic front and willingness to support if necessary Ukrainians as they're fighting with this.

But really the effort here is to get Putin and fellow separatists to stand down. And he's the one person that can do that, but he doesn't see that he is paying the price for not doing that. And until we stand up to this bully in the playground, it's just going to continue.

SCIUTTO: Senator Coats, I wonder if we reached the point where the president cannot get Europe on board that there is still difficulty in building European consensus and Europeans aren't willing to face their own economic cost from sanctions against Russia and indeed dependency on Russian natural gas, what if the U.S. took steps on its own? U.S. has tremendous economic leverage. It could ban Russian companies from U.S. financial markets, from U.S. debt. That would have an enormous cost.

Should U.S. act on its own in the event it cannot get Europe on board?

COATS: We might have to for the sake of the future of the stability in Europe. But, as I said before, this is a defining moment for Europe. If they back down now and they're tepid in terms of their response, that's going to create a very serious situation. Acting united, United States and Europe in dealing with this with tough sanctions against Russia and making them pay a major price is actually, I think absolutely necessary to achieve a result here without escalating this process.

And so, whether it is Ukraine or whether it is fighting the support for separatists, supplying weapons or whatever, and perhaps this missile launcher, Russia is complicit in all of this. And that's where we need to target our efforts.

SCIUTTO: Senator Coats, Republican from Indiana, thank you very much for taking the time to join us.

COATS: You're more than welcome. Thank you.

HARLOW: Our thanks to you, Senator. We appreciate it.

Meantime, European officials at the crash site call this part of eastern Ukraine, quote, "the world's biggest crime scene." It is also one of the most dangerous places in the world right now because of all of the fighting that is going on in the middle of an explosive and unstable cross border armed conflict.

I want to bring in our experts, former inspector general of the U.S. Transportation Department, Mary Schiavo. Also military analyst, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona. We have David Soucie here, former FAA inspector. And in Washington, our aviation analyst and expert, Miles O'Brien. We also have national security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer in Los Angeles.

To you first, Bob, let's talk about what we were just talking about with Senator Coats, in terms of what extent should the United States and perhaps our European allies support Ukraine militarily?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, you know, it's tempting. We have to look at the history of Putin's expansionism, as I recall it. First, 2008 was in Georgia, the annexation invasion of Crimea. This is clearly an act of war, shooting down a civilian airliner like this.

Putin is a bold line KGB officer who disagreed with the breakup of the Soviet Union. And he is making every effort to see what he can restore from it, including taking the eastern Ukraine. We have to draw the line somewhere whether supporting Ukraine militarily or putting on crippling sanctions. But we have to come to terms with this man. We just cannot let this thing drift.

HARLOW: So, from what you know of Vladimir Putin, what would you do? What would be more effective?

BAER: I think we've got to hurt him. He has enormous amounts of assets outside of the country. Russia depends on world economic system much more than under the Soviet Union. We have to come up with the unified plan to really make this hurt.

We have to put him in a position, also, where he can under cut the strong nationalists who have encouraged him to go into Ukraine. This should all be done quiet, back channels. We just simply cannot let this drift as is or we're going to get a wider conflict.

SCIUTTO: Mary Schiavo, if I can ask you with your great experience investigating crashes, one of the tactics that in fact we've already seen from the Russian side is delay here, one great mystery, where are the black boxes? Have they been taken away by pro-Russian rebels?

How much time in the best of circumstances would you need to come to a crash scene like this and make a hard determination about what happened and build the case for what happened? How much time would you need to get that done?

MARY SCHIAVO, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, given the size of the crash scene, that's a first and foremost something that would take a long time. I would think that you could come in and work diligently if they let in enough people to do the work. I mean, they don't need dozens. They need hundreds to get in there to get done. Once they mark the debris field, they can actually remove it at the time if they are in a big hurry. So, I would say, at a minimum, you know, ideally months. But if they only were given a couple of weeks, they could do it.

SCIUTTO: In a couple of weeks, and that, of course, is assuming they get the access and if the area is safe for access. Poppy and I have been talking a lot the last couple of hours, just about the risk to the inspectors going there. God knows, it's far from ideal conditions.

HARLOW: Yes, and David Soucie has been talking about the risk of disease, biohazards et cetera, from the site. These bodies have been lying there since this happened on Thursday.

You know, to you, Colonel Francona, when you talk about, you know, whether or not this was knowledge that this was a civilian aircraft this was an aircraft shot out of the sky, 298 innocent lives are lost.

But can you talk about the technology, if it was indeed this BUK missile system. How easy is it to know what you are shooting at?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET), MILITARY ANALYST: Well, the problem is all we have seen so far is the transporter erector launcher and radar called TELAR. That's the unit we see pictures of there. It's got a radar in the front and it's got four missiles. And that's what they use.

The problem is the BUK system consists of three other vehicles that go with it. And one of those vehicles carries an acquisition radar, which is fully equipped with IFF, and height finders and everything else. So, if you had that information, you would have known this was a civilian airliner. It would have been squawking a civilian code. It would have been at the right altitude. They would have been able to identify it.

HARLOW: But it can operate without that.

FRANCONA: It can operate and that's what -- I think what we are seeing here, is we are seeing this operating in stand alone mode. So, when they turn on a tracking radar, a guidance radar, it just finds a big piece of metal in the sky. But it doesn't -- you don't know what it is. If they see a piece of metal in the sky and they acted on that, that violates every protocol we would operate under.

HARLOW: Jim?

SCIUTTO: It is incredible to me just thinking over the last year speaking to intelligence officials who do counter terror, their nightmare scenario had been terror groups like al Qaeda or their affiliates getting shoulder-fired missiles that could take down airplanes. Now, here, you have a militant group inside Europe, not in some far distant land, with a surface-to-air missile that can shoot 33,000 feet into the air. I mean, it's a sea change leap from where we were in terms of fear.

I wonder, you know, Bob, maybe, Bob Baer, is a right question for this, how much of a jump in capability and danger is this for passenger travel around the world when you have this happen? And reminding our viewers, this is right in the middle of Europe.

HARLOW: Yes.

BAER: You know, Jim, you are absolutely right. You know, what I have been thinking about the last couple of years are these SA-7 surface- to-air missiles disappearing from Libya and other places, even Afghanistan. If you would have told me a year ago it would be a Russian advance system like the SA-11, I just wouldn't have believed it.

So, this is a huge leap threatening aviation all over the world. And if we don't come to some sort of resolution and find out who did it there is no way to containing this, because these systems are available throughout the Middle East and in the former Soviet Union.

So, I mean, who is in control? I mean, who was given these missiles? I mean, this is clearly a rogue group. Without knowing their motivations and their future intentions, we don't know when the next airplane is going to be shot down.

HARLOW: That's just such a terrifying thought.

I want to get to Miles O'Brien and also David Soucie, aviation experts. To you Miles and then to you, David, you can jump in.

Obviously, a lot of talk is about the black box. But I know, Miles, there are other things that are significantly important here in terms of an investigation finding out more. We already know a fair amount, but in terms of finding out more, what's most important?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, it appears we know an awful lot about who pulled the trigger here. I'm sorry I'm taken aback. It is chilling to hear this talk about aggressive people with partial training and a partial system shooting first and asking questions later. That is such a fundamental threat to aviation and most everything we hold dear.

What we need to do obviously, the U.S. has assets that were trained in this area that track that infrared signature from the rockets, so we can identify where it came from. They can backtrack with imagery, where the truck came from. They can go forward, where did the truck go. The radar signature of the device itself is something the satellite system would be able to capture, as well.

In addition, we need to hear what happened over at air traffic control, decisions about the rerouting because of potential of some weather. Were the pilots notified?

Then, of course, if we do get the black box, we will have confirmation on altitude and how the aircraft broke up.

HARLOW: Yes.

O'BRIEN: And for that matter, how long people were frankly tortured before the impact.

HARLOW: So hard to think about.

To you, David, final word on this.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Yes. The thing to look at here is to think about our system of notification. If these missiles are capable of taking the airplanes out, our system, the ICAO system, the Annex 15 rules for how we notify pilots, airplanes and airlines can't keep up with that. It doesn't have the technology or the advance ability to have the intelligence necessary to protect these systems. That's what I think we need to focus.

This is a failure of a system in place to protect us from this that didn't work.

HARLOW: It is chilling and terrifying and caught in the middle, 298 innocent lives. We're going to talk a lot more about the victims throughout the hour. But coming up next, a lot of us could not believe -- thank you to our

panel by the way -- a lot of us could not believe that Malaysia Airlines could lose another plane just months after losing MH370. Our next guest wrote an op-ed, fascinating, in "The New York Times." We're going to talk to him next, saying, look, this is not the airlines' fault.

More straight after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Malaysia Airlines has taken a lot of criticism for flying over the contested area of eastern Ukraine, in fact, a war zone. Passenger planes follow specific routes cleared by a number of national and international agencies and the path that MH17 followed was being used by other airlines. Ukraine had already warned them not to fly below 32,000 feet because a military transport plane had been shut down earlier.

Writer James Fallows wrote in a "New York Times" opinion piece today saying, quote, "Therefore, when they crossed the zone at 33,000 feet, they were neither cutting it close nor bending rules, but doing what other airlines had done in a way they assumed was both legal and safe."

James Fallows joined me now from New York.

And, James, thank you very much. I appreciate it and I enjoyed reading your piece today.

JAMES FALLOWS, NEW YORK TIMES: My pleasure. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: But I do have to ask you. I fly a lot as do you, and as do many of our viewers. I fly over Europe a lot and I have flown over Ukraine. A 1,000 foot margin of error, they had said the Ukrainians don't fly below 32,000 feet because of concern of military planes shot down. This plane is flying at 33,000 feet. And to be fair, other airlines were.

That to me as a flyer or if I was flying with my family is not a safe margin of error.

FALLOWS: The way the airline system works is each individual airline cannot afford or would be practical to have its own strategic intelligence unit, sort of assess risks all around the world. And so, therefore, they rely on international and national aviation bodies, the FAA here, the ICAO, Euro Control and all the rest to say here is where you can fly and here is where you cannot fly.

The idea is that they set the margins of error within those boundaries. Here would be an example. Suppose there were some crime in a town and police set up some detour for traffic to go around. If you follow their detour you would assume they are taking responsibility for what is a safe margin. So, Malaysia Airlines, like Lufthansa, like Singapore Air, like others

who are flying the same route on the same day were relying on the established system that now we may have to re-examine.

SCIUTTO: OK. So, that gets to the question then. If not Malaysia Airlines fault, is it the international agency's fault for not having set either a safer altitude area or just diverted other airlines from that area entirely, which several other airlines had made the decision not to fly over this area? Is this a failure of the regulators?

FALLOWS: I think it's a new phenomenon. It is a significant theme in the panel you just had, of people saying this was a risk that was not contemplated beforehand. The military surface-to-air missiles, they're not just terrorists, or not just criminals, or not the shoulder-mounted things, but actually military equipment will be used to shoot down airliners at altitude.

We don't know if it was intentional, we don't know if it was miscommunication, but it was a risk that wasn't contemplated by the rules in place. So, again, a few airlines, Air France, some of Korean carriers, decided to detour. But Lufthansa didn't, Aeroflot didn't, Singapore Air didn't and Malaysia didn't because until this episode, it wasn't something that anybody involved had contemplated and now they will.

SCIUTTO: Yes, no question. For beyond this area I just wonder how much of a game changer this is because we have seen, and I cover counter-terrorism and talk to intelligence officials all the time. The amount of attention that has been focused on Islamist militant groups, the al Qaedas of the world getting shoulder-fired missiles, they are watching them in 1,000 different countries every moment, they are very worried about this.

Now, you have this game changer. We don't know how many surface to air missile launchers are in that war zone.

How much does this change just the feeling of safety and flying in that part of the world? I mean, this sounds to me like people have to sit down at the table and decide how we are going to deal with this.

FALLOWS: Well, I think, here's a practical illustration of the difference it makes in the time that is until about three or four days ago where shoulder-mounted weaponry seemed to be the main threat. Airliners would worry mainly on takeoff and landing when they were close to the ground and moving slowly. If you had missiles that could shoot at cruise altitudes, then what everybody assumed was a margin of safety, it is flying -- you know, above 30,000 feet or so, suddenly you have to look at that in a different way. I think there will be serious reconsideration as there was after the attacks back in 2001.

SCIUTTO: No, question. James, these are frightening prospects here, frightening problems to deal with that a few days ago, no one was thinking about. We really appreciate you taking the time.

FALLOWS: Thank you. SCIUTTO: The president had big plans for his second term but he's had

to face crisis after crisis overseas. And now, a showdown with Russia. Will disasters abroad derail his plans at home?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: All right. Let's talk more about the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 and President Obama's reaction to it.

Jim Sciutto will join us from Washington.

And also, we have two political commentators here. Marc Lamont Hill, a CNN political commentator, and Amy Holmes from "The Blaze."

So, there has been plenty of talk in Washington about what the U.S. should be doing in response to this and the bigger strategic moves, which I want to get to in a moment.

But, Amy, let me start with you first, because there had been some criticism of the president on Thursday, after his remarks when we first learn of this tragic, tragic incident. Obviously, his tone and words changed a lot on Friday. But you think the president made an error in his rhetoric at least.

AMY HOLMES, THE BLAZE: I absolutely think he made an error in his first reaction to the tragedy, as we discussed bore. He said this may have been a tragedy.

We know it was, 298 people lost their lives. His remarks seemed short, glib, unfocused and he went into making jokes about being in Delaware and Joe Biden. They went on to get a burger and, you know, host two fundraisers. None of that seemed appropriate to the enormity of the event and the potential global international political consequences.

He did seem to get a serious tone the next day. We will have to see what this really means in terms of U.S. action, leadership and real substantive policy change when it comes to Russia.

HARLOW: Well, a very -- you know, on Friday some of the things he said in expanded remarks an outrage of unspeakable proportions, you know, talking about how he said we know these separatists received a steady flow of support from Russia. He named specifics including training, heavy arms weapons and anti-aircraft weapons.

Marc, you have been defending the president on this.

MARC LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: On his response from Saturday. Thursday, again, I think there was some miscalculations. One, it was a rhetorical miscalculation, saying it may have been a tragedy -- 298 people dying is always a tragedy.

I think what he may have underestimated and what his administration have underestimated is how much America would care at the moment it seemed like a European issue.

HARLOW: It's a global issue.

HILL: It's a global issue, but I'm saying, at that moment, I think he may have underestimated it.

And the second piece of this, though, is how he responds Friday and Saturday. I think he is responding appropriately now, trying to round up the troops, trying to get Europe invested in this. This only succeeds in terms of pushing back against Russia if Europe buys in it, Angela Merkel buys in, which she seems to have.

So, I think the president has moved forward and he's going to the right people.

HARLOW: And, Jim, it's so critical in this there is the optics and people talk about the words chosen and used but beyond the optics is strategy, and what do you do now?

SCIUTTO: No question.

Marc and Amy, I want to put you on the spot here because the strategy to this point has been strong words from the President and in a gradual ratcheting up at the cost against Russia to change behavior on the ground. That hasn't worked and of course now, you have the shooting down of a passenger airliner. Mark and Amy, has the president's policy on Ukraine and Russia been a failure?

AMY HOLMES, AUTHOR "THE HOT LIST": Well, from his own words, from his own remarks on Friday he said Vladimir Putin has the power to exercise authority over these pro-Russian separatists and he has not. So I think from the president's own words you know that the president's approach to this has failed in taming Russia or these pro-Russian separatists.

In terms of subsequently moving forward we are already seeing that the crash site is being looted, that material is being spirited away. We need to secure the crash site just as an investigative matter. That might require troops on the ground, NATO troops potentially to secure the area.

MARK LAMONT HILL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That is why it is interesting to think about it as an Obama policy towards Ukraine or Russia. I think you think of it as a global policy toward Ukraine and Russia. I don't think that Obama's policy have failed. I think if anything Europe hasn't bought in. Europe hasn't bought in because they have a much bigger dog in the fight, the energy market, in particular, is much more important to European countries than it is to the United States.

(CROSSTALK)

HILL: Exactly. So it is sort of easy for us to say sanctions, sanctions. To ratchet sanctions from Europe is a much bigger move. Now they have no choice.

HOLMES: Right. So we could be talking about sanctions when it comes to the financial sector - HILL: Absolutely.

HOLMES: Investment in Russian businesses, Russian businesses accessibility to financial markets and loans and so forth.

HILL: Yes.

HOLMES: They can ratchet up sanctions.

HILL: The president has been calling for that.

HOLMES: He has been calling (INAUDIBLE) but they did tighten them. But I think they can do it further. And also, you say that the president can be more effective in getting European leaders also to buy in.

HARLOW: Yes, you know, guys and it is interesting when you talk about whether the sanctions have been effective. I mean, we know to this point that they haven't and the big question is how do you get still a question we asked Senator Dan Coats is how do you get Europe fully on board when the economic impact for them, to some countries in particular, is so much tougher and so much more painful, frankly, economically than it is on the United States. Do you think that there is anything else at this point that the U.S. can do or say to get them on board?

HOLMES: Well, there is also such a thing as politics and that you have 298 people who lost their lives and the global outrage with that and European governments needing to respond to this tragedy in terms of punishing these separatists effectively. I think we should also be talking about possibly military assistance to the Ukrainian government, not just (INAUDIBLE).

HILL: No.

HARLOW: You don't agree.

HILL: I don't think we have the stomach, the political legs or the resources.

HOLMES: (INAUDIBLE) our own troop.

HILL: Btu even though I'm not sure if that is the proper response. I think economic sanctions have to be first and second move here. And I think we're moving toward that. I don't think Europe has a choice anymore. Two weeks ago they had the luxury of pushing back. Now they cannot. David Cameron has spoken out, Angela Merkel already spoken out. They have no choice but to do this now.

HARLOW: We will watch how it all unfolds. Thank you both for coming in. We appreciate it very much.

So how does a rag tag bunch of rebel fighters shoot down an airline? Well, are they really a rag tag bunch of rebel fighters? I think what we're seeing is clearly not. That is a question for investigators and leads to another who would afford them these sophisticated weapons? We're going to talk about all of that and what Russia's involvement may have been, next. We will tackle that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto, in Washington.

Pro-Russian rebels in Ukraine are the primary suspects in the downing of Malaysia Flight 17. But who are the rebels and just how closely are they allied with Russia? CNN's Deborah Feyerick takes a closer look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Malaysia Airlines flight 17 shot down near the town of Torres, a rebel held stronghold in the (INAUDIBLE) region of eastern Ukraine.

Fighting has intensified in recent weeks between rebels and Ukrainian military forces with cities destroyed and planes targeted.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Over the last several weeks Russian-backed separatists have shot down a Ukrainian transport plane and a Ukrainian helicopter and they claimed responsibility for shooting down a Ukrainian fighter jet.

FEYERICK: Possibly thinking, MH-17 was another Ukrainian plane, an ominous message appeared on Twitter, at roughly the time the plane was shot down. "We warned you to stay out of our skies." IT was posted by someone claiming to be pro-Russian rebel commander Igor (INAUDIBLE). That post was removed not long after the aircraft was identified as a passenger plane.

HEATHER A. CONLEY, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INT. STUDIES: Over the last several days this has escalated and which culminated in yesterday President Obama announcing a series of very tough sanctions to penalize Russia for its support of these separatists.

FEYERICK: Russian President Vladimir Putin has denied providing help to these separatists but Russian financier Alexander Borodai, now prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk people's republic in charge of rebels and he says hundreds of Russian fighters.

CONLEY: Pro-Russian separatists were backed by Russia and began to take over strategic administrative buildings, again airports, some of the military bases. They were being aided and abetted by Russian special forces.

FEYERICK: Both sides had access to the type of Russian-made buk missile launcher believed to have brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 and the Russians might not have even had to supply it to the rebels, some analysts believe the pro-Russian rebels could have seized it after storming a Ukrainian military base.

(on camera): Satellite imagery and other means will likely be able to pin point where the missile launch took place, further narrowing who was in control and maybe identifying which side was behind the shoot down of Malaysia Flight 17.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: With us now to talk more about this we have CNN's foreign affairs reporter Elise Labott, CNN military analyst Lt. Col. Rick Francona and former CIA operative, now CNN security analyst, Bob Baer. Bob, I want to talk to you because one of the questions here, it's not just Russia arming these rebels but Russia adding people to the ranks of these rebels, U.S. officials have said they believe they were Russians among the ranks of the rebels fighting in eastern Ukraine.

Do we know how many are there? Because this also gets to a very key question in light of this plane being shot down, is it possible that Russians were around that missile or with the team that launched the missile? How integrated are Russians into this force?

ROBERT BAER, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Jim, that's a great question. You know, anecdotally they are very close to it. This is a very sophisticated weapons system, SA-11. For instance in the '80s the CIA trained that Afghans on surface to air missiles. It just took forever to do. We had to simplify the weapon to get a lock on. That's an uncomplicated weapon, the stinger.

So you can imagine what it is like in SA-11. You have to have constant maintenance on this equipment. You need trained people. It is not a question of just pushing some of these weapons across the border and hoping they figure out how to use them. You actually, I would argue, would have to have Russian specialists on the ground in eastern Ukraine. I don't think we will get conclusive proof of that there is a preponderance of evidence that's what occurred.

SCIUTTO: At a minimum U.S. officials say it is their working theory that the weapons system came across the border from Russia,

Rick, I want to ask you a question because a frightening prospect came up in our conversation with our previous panel, just this idea that now civil aviation at cruising altitude is at risk, something we never thought of before really because you have weapons systems like this in the hands of really militants or terrorists, whatever you want to call them in eastern Ukraine. How much of a risk is there now that this is not a one off. We don't know how many weapons systems like this or out there. They can make a mistake like this again.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, this can happen in many other parts of the world. I mean, if you If you look at radar maps today of aircraft that are flying right now. They go right over Baghdad, to Crete and Mosul, these areas where these weapons exist.

So you know, this could happen again. Hopefully it won't. And when we talked about civil aviation and protecting civil aviation in the past we were always worried about the takeoff and landing phase where you use those shoulder fired missiles that Bob was talking about that we gave the Afghans. No one, most people never imagined that we would see this kind of sophisticated weaponry in the hands of some rogue group. And to launch this thing without any concern or protocol to make sure

what you are aiming at, this was just so improperly done it is just a disgrace.

SCIUTTO: It really just also gets to the tremendous risk that Russia took on by giving these kinds of weapons to this group of rebels.

Elise, I want to get to you. Because we know we talked a lot about what is Russia actually trying to accomplish here but in a large part it is about destabilizing eastern Ukraine. That is really part of the goal of his goal. And can't we say that Putin has achieved what he wanted there?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS REPORTER: Well, that has been his goal all along, Jim. I think one of the things that he might have seen by the event that clearly this was not his plan a. I mean, downing a few Ukrainian military aircraft and these separatists have done so over recent weeks clearly wouldn't incur the wrath of the international community although there has been some condonation. But when you have so many casualties from so many different nations there is a question whether this is a tipping point for President Putin.

Will this cause him to rethink his support for the separatists? There is a danger of this coming out of control for him. Because some of these separatists don't think President Putin has gone far enough. They want to see a full on invasion of eastern Ukraine. If they are not seeing that from President Putin they may start to ignore some of his orders and go rogue in a sense. He really needs to rethink not only his support for the separatists, there are many ways he can destabilize Ukraine, clearly we have seen a lot of that in the past but I think he still has his eyes on destabilizing the situation whether he's so avert about it and the future remains to be seen.

SCIUTTO: Bob Baer, you have done your work as a CIA analyst and analyzed leaders just like a Putin. What do you think - I think from the outside, people say the guy is nuts. What is he trying to accomplish here. But there's a method to this madness, right? Do you think that he's sticking to a plan and feels that he's getting what he wants out of Eastern Ukraine?

BAER: You know, that's a big guess but he was assigned at eastern Germany when the Soviet Union collapsed. He was a mediocre KGB officer. He resented the breakup of the Soviet Union. He has always privately that if he will be given the opportunity, he would do his best to piece it back together. But more than that he is appealing to a constituency of hard lying Russian nationalists who believe it is Russia's obligation, moral obligation, to protect the near abroad and that is Russians living outside the borders of Russia. And so it is more than just destabilizing the eastern Ukraine. He wants it back under Moscow's umbrella. I don't see him giving that up easily in spite of this tragedy.

SCIUTTO: That is something we have to remind our viewers, there is a very different view of this conflict from inside Russia than we have looking from the outside. One question for you, Rick. A big part of this has been Ukrainian

officials releasing what they say is evidence of Russian involvement here including recorded phone conversations between the pro-Russian rebels and their Russian handlers, video, audio, et cetera. Very quickly, very high quality but also very timely. Do you have any doubts about the authenticity of this evidence?

FRANCONA: And Bob and I used to do this for a living. I don't think it ever gets this good. It just seemed when you needed a piece of information it was there. When you needed a video of a buk launcher leaving it was there. When you needed another conversation talking about delivery it was there. I don't ever recall in my service it ever being that good.

SCIUTTO: Well, fair question. And this is a war of words and propaganda as much as everything else. I want to thank Elise Labott, Lt. Col. Rick Francona and Bob Baer for joining us. Always appreciate it.

Victims of this tragedy are being mourned around the globe. Online friends and loved ones are finding their own way to grieve, finding special meaning in victims' last posts on social media. We're going to have more on that after this break.

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HARLOW: For those who knew the 298 passengers innocent lives lost aboard flight 17 the grief is unimaginable. The crash scene is very much still an active investigation. It is a crime scene. For most families it is very far from home. Let's bring in Laurie Segall, she joins me now.

Since this happened, Laurie, on Thursday you have been digging online because that is where we find so much about these people before we can even reach their families. What are you finding in terms of the tributes that are being made?

LAURIE SEGALL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, looking at these folks and their Facebook profiles that usually they would be spent putting your life's moments, now they have turned almost into these tributes in their deaths. I want to tell you about one of the victims. His name is Emiel Miller. His Facebook page is literally a tribute to his life with folks commenting on it with their memories.

I want to read you some of those comments, Poppy. One says "Oh Emiel, my surrogate little brother, who am I going to tease now? At least we have the piece of mind that you found your one and only in Elaine and you get to be together forever. Just in a different peaceful world. Don't give us a chance to come over and visit, not to worry we will see each other again someday, gone too soon."

They're referring there to his girlfriend who was also lost in a plane crash. You begin to get a little glimpse into the idea that these people have loved ones. Another comment. "Emiel, we just don't share the same birthdays, we share memories. I'll never forget the drunken nights and at Nelly Van de Poll Lodge on our birthdays, the times we played pool at Stones, the times we alls sat in the bathtub hiding, the times we'd jump in the pool with clothes, the times we sit at the back lodge, opposite lodge, main lodge, et cetera. I can't believe it, rest in peace. The world will miss you."

So when you again to get these little glimpses into the lives of these folks whose lives were lost, you just understand how full of life they were and these online profiles are very much a place for people to mourn. We've seen that to a degree.

HARLOW: And 80 children, at least 80 children lost, some infants lost in all of this. I know that there were also people that were posting on social media, posting about where they were going, one to Bali, talking about their excitement for the adventure they were going on. Other people were even posting on Instagram that they were a little bit nervous about the flight. Looking back, we can glean a lot.

SEGALL: Absolutely, there's one passer, his name was Regis. He is from the Netherlands and he worked for a nightclub there. He was actually so excited to go to Bali, he had put on his Facebook page, "going back to my roots, see you very soon." And now it's almost ominous looking back because that was his last check-in. You know, it's now filled with all these comments. He also posted on Instagram a picture of his passport and a ticket with a caption saying, "Amsterdam, Kuala Lumpur, Bali, adios." It now has about 30,000 comments with people just mourning for him and now looking back in retrospect knowing what was going to happen. And what happened to them.

HARLOW: I think it's so important, thank you for bringing us - those are, we're talking about two of the people, three of the people lost of 298. It's so important as we talk about the politics of all this, what happens next. U.S.-Russia, geopolitics to keep the victims front and center in all of this because the mourning is just beginning for all those that love them. Thank you, Laurie. We appreciate it.

All right. Some other news now. More people were killed today in Gaza than any single day of the latest rash of violence with Israel. We're going to have the details for you, next.

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HARLOW: A quick reminder, CNN's coverage continues at the top of the hour. A two hour special edition of "Erin Burnett Out Front: Shutdown Malaysia 17," stay tuned for that.

SCIUTTO: The latest on the crash, the investigation, straight ahead at 8:00 Eastern. A quick check now of some of the other stories making headlines. Even after dark, heavy fighting did not stop today between Israel and Hamas militants in Gaza. Explosions and smoke colored the sky over Gaza City. After a day when more than 60 people died in that territory.

Palestinian officials say that's the heaviest one-day death toll in this current wave of fighting. Two Israeli soldiers were also reported killed. You'll hear directly from the Israeli prime minister tomorrow morning at 8:00 Eastern here on CNN. Benjamin Netanyahu and his conversation with our own Wolf Blitzer. Tune in or set your DVR for 8:00 a.m. Eastern and 8:00 a.m. Pacific time.

HARLOW: Certainly look forward to that.

Also making news, General Motors has ordered dealers to stop selling certain models of Cadillacs. This is because of a problem with an ignition switch that if bumped can shut off without warning disabling the airbags, anti-lock brakes and power steering. About half a million Cadillacs were recalled in June but the company says it still doesn't have a fix. For now, Cadillac dealers are told not to deliver the affected models. This move comes on top of more than eight million other GM victims also recalled for defective ignition switches.

SCIUTTO: And there was a collective aww all around the world today over this photo of Britain's Prince George. The palace released the official photo today of the little guy a few days ahead of his first birthday. Palace officials say there will not be an extravagant party for the toddler, just low key family time.

HARLOW: Exactly right. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York. Thanks so much for being with us.

SCIUTTO: I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Coming up, special two-hour edition with "Erin Burnett Out Front."

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