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MH-17 Victims' Bodies Being Stored; Crisis in Gaza; Hamas Claims To Have Captured Israeli Soldier

Aired July 20, 2014 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Wow, be sure to tune in for "The Hunt" right here on CNN tonight. 9:00 p.m. Eastern. Much more straight ahead in the "Newsroom." And it all starts right now.

Hello, again, everyone. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. These stories are topping our news this hour.

Just a short time ago a train carrying the bodies of people who died on Malaysian Air flight 17 moved away from the crash scene. A Russian news agency said refrigerated train cars are headed to Donetsk in eastern Ukraine. It is a volatile rebel-controlled area.

Earlier search teams found the remains of 233 of the 298 people on board that flight. Many of the bodies are on those cars.

Also today, the leader of the pro-Russian rebels says he has technical devices that might be the black boxes. He says if experts determine the black boxes are indeed the flight recorders, they would be returned - or turned over to international investigators.

Let's go straight to CNN's Phil Black at the crash site. So Phil, what more are we learning about those black boxes?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Fredricka this is obviously a key part of international concern. Where are they? They're such important evidence in determining what happened. One day after the leader of the rebels said here said we haven't touched the wreckage, we don't know where those voice and data recorders are, they now say we have technical items that may be those black boxes and we're holding on to them in a secure place in Donetsk, the regional capital.

They say they'll hand them over to international experts when they get here but they're not going to give them to the Ukrainian government because the Ukrainian - they don't trust the Ukrainian government. Well, the Ukrainian government doesn't trust them either.

Today the Ukrainian government released audio recordings it says are between rebels talking about the need to find those black boxes because people in Moscow, the Russian capital, want them to do so. Take a listen.

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BLACK: Now, we can't verify those recordings and say whether or not they are in fact rebels talking about this as the Ukrainian government claims, but the Ukrainian government says it's another key piece of evidence in the case they're building trying to implicate Russia in the shooting down of this aircraft. They've been saying that Russia supplied the weapon that was used. They're now saying that Russia is trying to help really insisting upon a cover-up to hide their tracks, if you like, hide their involvement in this terrible disaster. Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And then, Phil, what kind of activity did you see at the crash site today?

BLACK: Well, we've seen a lot of activity over the last 24 hours. Yesterday there were still so many bodies out in the open. Now most of those have been collected. As you mentioned they're being stored on refrigerated carts in a nearby train station moved to Donetsk, we believe.

The key point here is still very much under rebel control. That means that the Ukrainian government, the international community, still does not have access to these bodies, cannot begin the process of identifying them and returning them to the correct families, their loved ones around the world. And that's really the important point.

While we've seen progress in recovering the bodies, some limited progress in securing the site from further contamination and tampering with, there are no investigators here on the ground. There are not yet the proper experts qualified in dealing with the disaster of this scale and nature. And that's what the rest of the world really desperately wants to see here as soon as possible, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Phil Black, thank you so much for bringing that to us. Appreciate that.

Not far away in a local village where major parts of the airplane fell from the sky, people gathered some of those piece of the plane and then piled it up. They called local officials but no one has come to that location. Chris Cuomo has the latest on the search for answers there.

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CHRIS CUOMO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): A local villager brought us here far away from the crash site where it's being investigated. Look what she showed us.

She says a major part of the airplane fell right here out of the sky. And when surrounding villagers heard that a plane had fallen, they searched their property. And they started to bring things here, collecting everything they found. Personal effects, shoes, clothing, major parts of the airplane. It seems to be a big part of the cargo bay here. They brought it all, piled it up

They called local officials and told them. They said they answered questions but no one has come. Another man pointed us to the forest nearby and suspended in the tree was a huge part of the passenger compartment. Overhead storage still closed. What answers could be found here? What answers could be found in those compartments for investigators for the family, for the family of all these victims who are so desperate for answers.

The best the villagers could do was make it a makeshift memorial. Flowers, candles, stuffed animals in memory of the children who were lost. This is why there's such a desperate need, time is of the essence, for this situation to be under control. Otherwise, who knows what information will be lost, what answers will be lost for the families.

This is Chris Cuomo at the crash site of flight 17 in eastern Ukraine.

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WHITFIELD: And we'll have much more news right after this.

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WHITFIELD: A very deadly Sunday in the Middle East. Thirteen Israeli soldiers confirmed dead caught in an ambush. Meanwhile, the Israeli ground attack continued. Eighty seven Palestinians were killed today. Hundreds wounded near Gaza City.

During a brief cease-fire civilians caught in the fighting were able to get medical attention and get out of harm's way. According to United Nations officials, 81,000 Palestinians fleeing the violence have sought refuge at U.N. shelters set up in Gaza City.

And in a briefing today, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Israeli soldiers have destroyed most of Hamas' tunnels in Gaza. Also today President Barack Obama called Mr. Netanyahu raising concerns about growing casualties and letting him know secretary of state John Kerry will soon travel to Cairo to seek an end to the conflict.

The prime minister has been prepping Israelis for long days of fighting. But he's also getting hard questions about the conflict with Hamas. Earlier today, CNN's Wolf Blitzer sat down with the prime minister and asked about an exit strategy from Gaza.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): We're being seen now by viewers in the United States and around the world in more than 200 countries around the world right now. Quick question, your exit strategy from Gaza, what is it? BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Sustainable quiet. I mean we didn't seek this escalation, Hamas forced it on us. They started rocketing our cities steadily increasing the fire. I called for de-escalation, they refused. I accepted an Egyptian cease-fire proposal backed up by the Arab League and the U.N., they refused. I accepted a humanitarian lull proposed by the United Nations. They refused. We'll stop our operations when they can bring back quiet to our people.

BLITZER: Some of your cabinet ministers think the only way to do that is to reoccupy Gaza which you evacuated from and gave it up back in 2005. Do you support reoccupying Gaza?

NETANYAHU: Well, I support taking whatever action is necessary to stop this insane situation. Just imagine, I mean. Imagine what Israel is going through. Imagine that 75 percent of the U.S. population is under rocket fire and they have to be in bomb shelters within 60 to 90 seconds. I'm not just talking about New York. New York, Washington, Chicago, Detroit, San Francisco, Miami, you name it. That's impossible. You can't live like that. So I think we have to bring back, restore back reasonable sustained quiet and security and we'll take whatever actions necessary to include that.

BLITZER: But that includes possibly reoccupying Gaza? Because a lot of your military planners are afraid of a quagmire, a dangerous quagmire here.

NETANYAHU: Nobody wants to go to excessive military lengths, but what is happening here is excessive. They're not only targeting our cities, they're deliberately firing thousands of rockets. Already fired 2,000 rockets in the last few days on our cities. You can imagine this.

It's not only that. And they wanted to kill as many of our six million Israelis who were targeted as they could. They haven't succeed not for lack of trying because we've developed, with the American help and I appreciate the help that President Obama and the U.S. Congress had given us to develop these iron dome. Fantastic systems but some of the missiles perforate and they hit our schools.

So we have to stop that. But in addition to the rockets, they've got now terror tunnels that they build in Palestinian homes in Gaza, they penetrate under ground into Israeli territory. Terrorists pop up there, try to murder civilians, kidnap Israelis as they did with Gilad Sharif. So we're taking action right now to neutralize those tunnels and we'll continue the action as long as it is necessary.

BLITZER: You see these painful pictures of these Palestinian children and these refugees, thousands of them fleeing their homes. It's a horrendous sight what's going on right now if you look at the images. Heart wrenching. What goes through your mind when you see that?

NETANYAHU: I'm very sad. When I see that I'm very sad. We're sad for every civilian casualty. They're not intended. This is the difference between us. The Hamas deliberately targets civilians and deliberately hides behind civilians. They imbed their rocketeers, their rocket caches, their other weaponry which they use to fire in civilian areas. What choice do we have? We have to protect ourselves. We try to target the rocketeers, we do. All civilian casualties are unintended by us but actually intended by Hamas. They want to pile up as many civilian dead as they can because somebody said - it's gruesome. They use telegenically dead Palestinians for their cause. They want the more dead, the better.

BLITZER: The argument that your critics make is that you're overreacting right now, overkilling.

NETANYAHU: Well, look, I want to say this. There are very few examples in history of countries that have been rocketed on this scale. If you look at our response, it's actually very measured and trying to be as pinpointed as we can, but I think when people say that - I appreciate the support we've received from President Obama and many world leaders for Israel's right to self-defense, but others are saying, you have the right of self-defense as long as you don't exercise it.

What can a country do? What would you do? What would the people of the United States do if your cities are rocketed now, 2,000 rockets falling in American cities? You know, people would say in the United States, as they're telling me, obliterate the people. We don't obliterate them. We don't have any battle with the Palestinians in Gaza.

BLITZER: But it is brutal there now.

NETANYAHU: It's very difficult because Hamas is using them, the Palestinians, as human shields. We develop anti-missile systems to protect - we use anti-missile systems to protect our civilians. They use their civilians to protect their missiles. That's the difference.

So against such a cynical, brutal, heartless enemy, we try to minimize civilian casualties, we try to target the military targets. Unfortunately, there are civilian casualties which we regret and we don't seek. They all fall on the responsibility of Hamas.

BLITZER: The president, President Obama, he urged you the other day, all the parties, to return to the cease-fire that was reached in November 2012. Are you accepting his proposal, go back to that cease- fire?

NETANYAHU: I already did. I already did.

BLITZER: If Hamas were to say to you right now "we accept the cease- fire," would Israel withdraw its forces from Gaza?

NETANYAHU: That was the Egyptian proposal which we accepted and they refused.

BLITZER: If they accepted now, is it too late?

NETANYAHU: I don't know. I don't want to speak about it being too late. I think the first thing is a cessation of hostilities but then we have to go (INAUDIBLE). BLITZER: Would Israel withdraw its forces as long as -

NETANYAHU: First, we have to deal with this tunnel business because we're not leaving -

BLITZER: So you would stay until those tunnels are destroyed?

NETANYAHU: We're doing that right now as we speak..

BLITZER: How long is that going to take?

NETANYAHU: It's being done fairly quickly. But I think the important thing right now is not to begin to put terms. I think the important thing is to end the hostilities and then get into a situation where we have sustainable cease-fire. That means beginning to discussion the demilitarization of Gaza. Gaza under all the previous agreements should have been demilitarized. Instead of being demilitarized, it became an Iranian-financed and equipped fortress of terror with thousands and thousands of rockets and other weapons being smuggled and developed and that has to stop.

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WHITFIELD: Still to come, the second part of Wolf Blitzer's discussion with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. They talked about the hundreds of civilian casualties in Gaza.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

WHITFIELD: This breaking news, a new development in the conflict between Israel and Hamas. We understand now, CNN is confirming, that Hamas claims it has captured an Israeli soldier. Let's go to our Karl Penhaul right now in Gaza City. Karl, what do you know?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fredricka, the Al Khassam brigade, that's the military wing of Hamas made this announcement, a very dramatic announcement on its own TV channel just a few moments ago. What the Al Khassam Brigade spokesman said they had captured an Israeli soldier early Sunday morning in a clash on the northeastern border between Gaza and Israel.

They gave also the name and the number of that soldier. I'm not going to give you that over the air because we don't know if this alleged soldier's next of kin have been informed. Now, of course, we have looked to the idea for their statement at the IDF, that's the Israeli Military says they are aware of these reports and are checking.

Just to put this into context, is this a wild claim by the Al Khassam brigade or not? Over the last few nights when the Al Khassam Brigade have made statements about commando raids and clashes in which they caused casualties on the Israeli military, their statements have largely proved accurate. So we're going to have to see, we're going to have to see over the next minutes and hours what the Israeli military response, but we've already heard the response from some of the people of Gaza.

We're in an office here on the 11th floor of a building, and when that statement went out on Gaza TV, all around we heard from apartment buildings loud cheers, clapping going up from ordinary citizens. In the distance we heard celebratory gunfire going up as well. They clearly believe, ordinary Gazan people believe this could be a turning point in this confrontation with Israel. Why? Because they look to the experience of when Gaza militants captured an Israeli soldier back in 2006, Gilead Shalit.

He spent more than five years in the custody of Gazan militants and he was eventually swapped in a prisoner exchange for more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners. That is why right now, tonight, both the Al Khassam Brigade, Hamas' military wing as well as Gazan civilians believe that the capture of this Israeli soldier as claimed by Hamas could prove a decisive moment, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And then, Karl, what is the feeling as to how this would be a turning point in this conflict, meaning this group would feel like it has some leverage against the Israeli Defense Forces or does it mean a greater possibility in brokering some other sort of deal of peace?

PENHAUL: Yes. All of the above, in a sense, Fredricka. First of all, what it does do is give a huge morale boost to the various Gazan militant factions. They're fighting a guerrilla war against a much more powerful conventional Israeli army.

So the fact that they've been able to capture an Israeli soldier as well as having staged a number of commando attacks on Israeli forces over the previous nights in which they have inflicted casualties on the Israeli forces, that will put the Hamas militants and other Gazan militants on a good footing, of good morale footing internally. It could also galvanize support among the ordinary civilians of Gaza to think that the militant factions are making some headway in their fight against Israel, that all of this fight isn't in vain.

We also know from past experience that Israel does not leave its soldiers on the battlefield. It does not leave either their remains on the battlefield or living soldiers in captivity. We have seen in the past that Israel has eventually been pushed into brokering deals into prisoner swaps in the case of either dead bodies or living soldiers being captured by Palestinian militant factions.

And in this case we're going to have to see how it pans out, of course. Could it mean that the Palestinian militants use this to pressure Israel to call a cease-fire and to cave in to some of their demands? We'll have a look at that. Because the flip side is that this angers the Israeli military even more and the military offensive grows in force, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And this taking place on the day that is considered one of the deadliest days since this conflict. And then seeing the Israeli prime minister coming out in full force hitting every U.S. television network today in detail spelling out how the IDF will be unrelenting. What's the expectation of what the Israeli response would be to this now?

PENHAUL: It is a little too early to suggest what the Israeli response might be. Like I say, it could cut both ways. On past experience we know that the Israeli military is loathe to leave its soldiers on the battlefield whether they are alive or dead. We have seen that in the past the Israeli military has been willing to broker some kind of a deal, although in some cases that's taken years to get through. It hasn't been an instant fix.

We'll have to wait and see on that. We have heard, of course, the statements, the interviews that Israeli Prime Minister Mr. Netanyahu has been giving. We've heard his comments that 13 Israeli soldiers were killed in clashes with Hamas overnight. That for Hamas in guerrilla war terms is a big success. It shows us that since 2012 and 2009, the last confrontations between Hamas and Israel, that Hamas has improved its tactics, it has improved its technology, it is fighting a much more effective war against a more powerful Israeli machine this time around.

But in terms of the impact on their claims of the capture of an Israeli soldier on the northeast Gaza border this morning, we have to see how Israel responds. Tonight we can hear many, many drones, many Israeli drones in the air. They've been in the air on previous nights as well. But tonight my guess is they will be searching for clues about where this Israeli soldier is.

My guess is that if Israeli commandos can try and rescue that soldier alive, they will try and do so. This is a very fluid situation, of course, and we're keeping our eyes on it. And of course, what we must also be clear and wait for, no firm conformation from the Israeli military yet. The Israeli military says they are still checking these reports. We need to see quite clearly what their response to this situation is, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Hey, Karl, I want to bring in retired U.S. Air Force Lt. Col. Rick Francona, CNN military analyst as well into the fold here as well. So, you know, Colonel, how does this change Israel's strategy now?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, right now it's going to change their tactics almost immediately. And excellent reporting from Karl there. They're probably going to start looking for him right now. This is the same thing that would have happened - let's talk about Bowe Bergdahl. Bowe Bergdahl when he went missing. Immediately everything stops and everybody goes into a search and rescue, search and recovery mode to try to find this guy.

So you're going to see increased drone activity, more commando activity because the best chance of getting him back is getting him back quickly. Once they have him for any length of time, they're going to move him to somewhere secure and then we'll probably see some proof of life or video or something later. Now is the critical time. If the Israelis are going to get him, they're going to get him now. So I think we're going to see a flurry of activity.

As far as the long-term goal of the Israelis, I don't think it's going to change much. They're committed to going in there and rooting out the rockets and the tunnels. So we've got two things going on right now.

WHITFIELD: But this does mean that Israel's likely to cease, stop its air arsenal while it would be searching for its soldier.

FRANCONA: Maybe, maybe not. They may pull back a little bit or move to different areas. They may designate a certain area as a no-fire zone but they'll continue the overall mission because they have to do that. They have to keep the pressure up. If they stop the momentum, then they bog down.

Now, you remember, as Karl pointed out, you know, and in the past confrontations, they -- you know, they suffered greatly when the Israelis came in. They've had years now to refine their tactics, build their booby-traps, set up ambush passageways. So it looks like they're doing that and they're doing it to some effect. So it's their space, it's their battlefield. They know where everything is, so they do have the advantage of playing on their home turf, if you will. So --

WHITFIELD: And you're talking about Hamas having the advantage now.

FRANCONA: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Especially now that there is this, you know, taking of a soldier.

FRANCONA: Yes, and I read the Arabic chyron there. And it actually said the al-Qassam Brigades is claiming responsibility.

WHITFIELD: Does that make a difference in your view?

FRANCONA: Well, they're the military arm of Hamas and that gives me -- I think gives them more credibility rather than just Hamas grabbing him but then it says right there. That's what it says. It says Qassam. And he's giving the soldier's serial number. That's -- he said it's the serial number of the Zionist soldier and his number.

WHITFIELD: To verify.

All right. Colonel, thanks so much.

Karl, we're going to check back with you momentarily.

Just for those who are just now joining us, I want to bring you up to date on this breaking news. The armed wing of Hamas is claiming it captured an Israeli soldier in the fighting in Gaza. Karl Penhaul with us now as well as Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona. All of this taking place on a very deadly Sunday in the Middle East. The deadliest since this conflict began.

Thirteen Israeli soldiers confirmed dead in all, caught in an ambush. And during this Israeli ground attack, as it continues, we also understand that there are 87 Palestinians that were killed today, hundreds more wounded near Gaza City. And during a brief ceasefire today those civilians that were caught in this fighting were able to get medical attention and get out of harm's way at least temporarily, according to United Nations officials who are also saying that 81,000 Palestinians fleeing the violence have sought refuge at U.N. shelters set up in Gaza City.

All right. Let's return our conversation with Karl Penhaul and Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

So, Karl, this, as you mentioned earlier, does change the strategy with this wing of Hamas taking or claiming responsibility for taking this soldier and certainly gives them the upper hand. You are in agreement with the colonel on that?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think you've got to look at this in terms of a guerrilla fight. This is an asymmetrical war, this is not a fight between two conventional armies. Had a large conventional army took a prisoner from another large conventional army in military terms, it may not mean a great deal. But Hamas, it's military wing, the Hamas Brigades, are fighting a guerrilla war, a guerilla war against a much more sophisticated, much more powerful conventional Israeli army.

The fact that the al-Qassam Brigades are now claiming to have captured an Israeli soldier in clashes on Sunday morning on the northeast portion of the Gaza border, gives it a huge morale boost. It is militarily a success in guerrilla war terms. It is also proving popular with the Gaza civilian population.

Any guerrilla force, OK, Hamas is defined by many international nations as a terrorist group. Nevertheless, it is a guerrilla force. And any guerrilla force needs to survive the support of the civilian population. And news of this capture tonight seems to have galvanized some of that support. From our vantage point in all the buildings around we heard spontaneous cheers going up from apartment blocks. We heard celebratory gunfire and we heard chants going out from some of the mosques.

Gaza's civilian population is clearly pleased with this capture. Why? Because surely they remember the experience that they had when Gaza militants captured the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit back in 2006. The Israelis hunted for him, they searched for him, failed to find him. And after five years were forced into cutting a deal with Gaza militants to free more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners in exchange for a single Israeli soldier.

That was the first live soldier that the Israelis had managed to get returned to the (INAUDIBLE) his capture in more than 26 years. This will be seen -- given the Israeli military psyche -- a devastating blow that one of their number has been taken prisoner by Hamas' military wing. And right now we have to see how this unfolds in terms of Israel's military response.

As the colonel rightly said, the Israelis will be dedicating a lot of resources to finding, to try to follow the immediate trail of this soldier to see if they can get a bead on him. To see if they can get him back by force. By putting in some of their of their crack commandos and rescuing him. But the trail may be going cold because, according to al-Qassam Brigades, they captured this soldier early Sunday morning. They've taken this long to announce that they have captured him. And that presumably is to buy themselves time to get him into some kind of place where they can keep him, where they can bunker him down and where they can defend him against any kind of Israeli attempts to get him back quick. This is a key bargaining chip -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: Wow. That's extraordinary.

So, Colonel, that he was captured early in the day and this news was not made until late in the day, as you heard Karl's explanation there, is it your concern or fear that this militant wing of Hamas would not stop at one but perhaps the game plan would be to capture more Israeli soldiers?

FRANCONA: Well, of course. That's always the goal is to capture these guys, because as Karl pointed out, they know what the price is. They know that they can at some point in time get freedom for any captured Hamas leaders that are now in Israeli jails. There's a precedent. The Israelis did that when they released over a thousand people for Gilad Shalit. So these -- the Israeli soldier become very, very valuable. It's always better to have them alive.

Now there's another factor -- you know, this really boosted Palestinian morale, Hamas morale, al-Qassam morale. But it also took a little bit of a toll on the Israelis because now they've lost one of their own to capture. And -- that's always, you know, a devastating blow. And they also lost 13 of their soldiers. And I understand these were out of the Golani Brigade which is one of their elite units.

So they're in there now and they're in this asymmetrical battle. And when you're doing that, it's a guerrilla campaign. You're going into streets and you don't know who's there. And of course the Palestinians have the advantage because this is their home turf. And they've got to built-in intelligence network. Virtually every Palestinian that lives there will be feeding them information. Very, very dangerous situation.

WHITFIELD: Incredible.

Colonel Francona, thank so much.

Karl Penhaul, thanks also.

We're going to take a short break and then on the other side we'll update our viewers. And of course bring our conversation back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

WHITFIELD: All right. This breaking news concerning the conflict in Gaza. We understand the armed wing of Hamas is now claiming responsibility for capturing an Israeli soldier in the fighting in Gaza. And through our reporting, our Karl Penhaul is there in Gaza City. He has learned that this capture took place early Sunday morning, but it has only been made public through the airwaves there in Gaza City just within the past couple of minutes or so taking a very long time to make that claim of responsibility perhaps to help hide or relocate that soldier making it that much more difficult for the Israeli Defense Forces to try to locate their guy.

We have right now with us Karl Penhaul in Gaza City, also a former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren with us, joining us from Tel Aviv, and Atika Shubert there in Ashkelon, Israel and Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, our CNN military analyst coming to us from New York.

I want to go with you, Ambassador Oren, first. Is it your fear or concern that this just might this be a repeat of what you saw in 2006 with the capture of Gilad Shalit who was released some five years later in exchange for 1,000 Palestinians?

MICHAEL OREN, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: Good to be with you, Fredricka. Well, there has been no confirmation on the Israeli side about the abduction of any Israeli soldier. There have been rumors occasionally floated during the course of the entire Protective Edge Operation. Usually by the Hamas side. Hamas has frequently broadcast claims that have no bearing in reality.

But tonight the Prime Minister Netanyahu and the Defense Minister Ya'alon gave a major press conference to talk about the deaths of 13 soldiers from the elite Golani Brigade. They didn't mention, didn't intimate in any way that there may have been an Israeli soldier who had also been abducted.

WHITFIELD: Why is that? If they know about it, why would there not be any comment?

OREN: Probably because they had to confirm it very carefully. They probably have to distinguish whether they're dealing with a live hostage in the case of Hamas and other terror organizations in our region. They know Israel's sensitivity to human remains and they've tried to acquire these remains by one means or another and then hold those hostage as well.

You mentioned, Fredricka, the Gilad Shalit exchange. Yes, one soldier very much alive was exchanged for more than a thousand Palestinian prisoners. But we've had cases of dozens and even hundred of prisoners have been released for the bodies of Israeli soldiers. So the government has to be very careful here. It is in the midst of a very intense military struggle in Gaza.

These issues of national morale. Israel is very, very cautious in dealing with the feelings of families and they would never make public any claim unless it was fully, fully substantiated. So the government is being very cautious here. Again, it has not been substantiated. It could be one of the many false claims by Hamas. We're going to have to wait and see. WHITFIELD: And then let's speak hypothetically then, if

substantiated, how devastating to the strategy or focus of Israeli forces would this be in your view?

OREN: I'm sure it would be a blow to morale. We have a -- in Israel we have a citizens army. It's not like you have a volunteer army in the United States. It's universal conscription. So when you talk about soldiers, they're basically our kids, our fathers, our brothers and our sisters, too, because women serve in the military as well. So it's something that's very, very personal to every Israeli. And it would be -- it would be a blow.

I do not think, I do not think that this will in any way impact the course of the operation which will almost certainly continue.

WHITFIELD: OK. Let's bring in Karl Penhaul, he's there in Gaza City.

And Karl, not long ago you told us how people were celebrating there. You could hear the voices of people celebrating once they heard the news of this claim through the airwaves that indeed an Israeli soldier had been captured by this military wing of Hamas. Tell us more in detail what you've learned since then.

PENHAUL: Yes, I think there is a certain number of important points that Ambassador Oren brings up. First of all, this is a claim by the spokesman of the al-Qassam Brigades. We are working to independently confirm that. We're also seeking any kind of confirmation from the Israeli military.

In the al-Qassam Brigade statement, they did give the name and the number of that soldier. We are holding back on giving those details out on our air. We feel that any military organization either regular army or irregular army has the right to follow its procedures and inform the next of kin first, but we do have that information. That I would guess, al-Qassam Brigades are trying to put out to lend credence to their claim.

Now of course in any war one cannot necessarily take the first word of any of the warring sides, whether they're established governments or guerrilla units on international terrorist lists like the Gaza militants. One has to look for independent confirmation, but over the previous nights al-Qassam Brigades have made claims on TV stations in Gaza and those claims have, in broad terms, proved correct.

They given in the past few days correct information about burrowing across the border into Israel to launch commando operations. They also gave correct information about the attack on the Golani unit and that devastating loss of live against the Israeli military last night. Qassam Brigades gave accurate information on that. So we have to look at these claims seriously but of course look for independent confirmation.

It will, of course, if proved true, be a tremendous morale boost for a guerrilla army. It will also be or demonstrate that they're using new tactics, they are also using putting new skills to the test in this war in contrast to previous confrontations with Israel. These cross- border commando raids are a new thing. And the fact that they can capture in combat an Israeli soldier will be seen by them as a major achievement.

It certainly is being seen as a major achievement by the civilians here in Gaza from our vantage point when the al-Qassam Brigades broadcast that news, civilians in apartment blocks around erupted in celebration. We could hear them inside their homes cheering and clapping. We could hear celebratory gunfire. Of course that is macabre. It is macabre that people are celebrating battlefield tragedies, but at the same time it does show -- it feeds into this idea that the capture of a single Israeli soldier could perhaps mark a turning point in this confrontation between Hamas and Israel.

It could perhaps give Hamas sufficient leverage, sufficient bargaining power, to force Israel into some kind of bargaining because remember now one of the main or one of the points that Hamas has been insisting on in the last few days from meaningful ceasefire with Israel is that Israel should release hundreds of Palestinians rounded up following the kidnap and murder of those three Israeli teenagers last month and many of those who were rounded up and are now in Israeli prisons were also the prisoners, the Palestinian prisoners released in the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. We're going to check back with you.

Meantime, Atika Shubert there is in Ashkelon, Israel.

So, Atika, you heard Karl's reporting there especially given the recent track record, the kind of information that Hamas has said it's had and then come to find out that much of that has been true. While the Israeli government is not acknowledging or authenticating this claim, is there a sense or a feeling of real believability because of precedence that this really could be the case?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly the statements that have been put out previously by the Qassam Brigades have, as Karl pointed out, generally turned out to be true. So there is a lot of fear and concern here that this latest claim of kidnapping an Israeli soldier could very well turn out to be true as well. That, of course, would be a major concern for the Israeli public.

They're already reeling from the loss of 13 soldiers in the Golani Brigade. And just to give you an idea of just why that has such impact here. The Golani Brigade is an elite infantry unit. It has a sterling reputation in terms of its -- in terms of the way it operates and the fact that it is supposed to be one of the most efficient and well-run, you know, brigades and established brigades in the Israeli army.

So for it to take such a loss is really quite astonishing for the Israeli public especially considering it all happened overnight in the span of, you know, just a few hours. So now, if on top of that loss of 13 soldiers, there is now this report of an Israeli soldier being kidnapped possibly held hostage, then this will have quite a devastating impact on the public, but again this information has not been independently confirmed. We are still looking into those reports.

And to repeat, the Israeli Defense Forces have said that they are looking into these reports but they have not made any further comment at this time -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Atika, thanks so much.

We're going to return to this conversation in a moment. When we come back, I'm going to ask Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona how this might indeed be a game changer in this conflict right after this.

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WHITFIELD: Welcome back. This breaking news, Hamas says it has captured an Israeli soldier. We're covering all bases. We've got our reporters and resources all over the map. We've got Atika Shubert in Ashkelon, Israel, Karl Penhaul in Gaza City, former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, and this New York, CNN military analyst Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona.

Thanks to all of your for being with us.

Lieutenant Colonel, let me go to you first because just before the break we talked about what this means, how Karl spelled out this gives Hamas leverage. In your view, how much of a game changer is this now in this conflict?

FRANCONA: Well, it's a game changer immediately because it's going to change what the Israelis are doing on the ground in that sector. They're going to be looking for him. The fact that the -- they've waited this long to announce it on the Hamas side, they've got him to a position now where they believe that he is securely in their grasp and the Israelis won't be able to find him.

So that's what we're initially going to see. But overall the Israeli strategy is not going to change. They're committed to this mission. They're going to hunt down those rockets, they're going to hunt down those tunnels, and they're going to do the best they can. Now in the future they're going to have to deal with this. As the ambassador mentioned earlier, they're going to have to make some sort of accommodation to get this guy back.

WHITFIELD: And so, Mr. Ambassador, you heard from our Karl Penhaul and his reporting that according to Hamas the capture took place early Sunday but it's only Sunday evening in which it was broadcast. And again Israel is not confirming this. But according to you, you say, they're going to take some time to try to authenticate this. But as they try to do that, how urgently does Israel want to acknowledge this publicly once it is able to, perhaps authenticate this claim?

OREN: Again, I agree, Fredricka, with everything that was said by the lieutenant colonel. If a soldier were abducted, then it's not going to change the course of the operation. Perhaps some forces would be diverted to cordon off an area so that if there were an abducted soldier -- again, this is very hypothetical, that they would not be able to transfer him to other sectors of the Gaza Strip. And it has been Israel's army policy to sort of -- to section off

parts of Gaza that way, hermetically. The Israeli military, the Israeli government is very determined, as was said earlier, to proceed and try to achieve the goals of this mission, which are exposing those penetration tunnels and eliminating the rocket fire.

WHITFIELD: OK.

OREN: And no confirmation about the soldier now.

WHITFIELD: Right.

OREN: Everyone's very, very sensitive about it. But I assure you, Fredricka, if there were confirmation, the government would come out and say it.

WHITFIELD: Rather immediately.

All right, former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, and our military analyst, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, thanks to both of you.

Of course, we're going to continue to watch this breaking story at the top of the hour and the NEWSROOM continues.

I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Thanks for being with me this afternoon. The NEWSROOM with Poppy Harlow and Jim Sciutto right now.

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