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27 More Bodies Found, 233 Victims Recovered from MH-17; Pro- Russian Rebels May Have Black Boxes; Hamas Claims It Has Captured an Israeli Soldier

Aired July 20, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: And I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Breaking news. In just the past few minutes in the conflict between Israel and Palestinian militants that, if confirmed, could be a major turning point in this already deadly conflict.

HARLOW: And the breaking news is that the military faction of Hamas Qassam al-brigade that is operating in Gaza has announced that they've captured an Israeli soldier whom they are holding that soldier as a prisoner. We're working very hard to verify this claim and looking for further announcements from Hamas.

No comment yet from Israel on that Hamas claim. More people, though, died today on both sides of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict than on any single day since the latest wave of violence started. Thirteen Israeli soldiers and 87 people in Gaza have been killed. Most of them in one town that was targeted for an intense air strike by the Israeli military.

SCIUTTO: Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to CNN a few hours ago. He told out Wolf Blitzer people who say the Israeli response is too much are frankly wrong.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: There are very few examples in history of countries that have been rocketed on this scale. If you look at our response, it's actually very measured and trying to be as pinpointed as we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're going to take you live to Gaza in just a few minutes. But right now we are going to give you the latest on the downing of Malaysia airlines flight 17.

HARLOW: Along the Russia/Ukraine border disorganized groups of armed pro-Russian rebels still controlling much of that crash area that spans many kilometers. It literally litters landscapes for miles and miles. It is severely complicating attempts to secure the crash sire end to recover those victims, 298 souls.

One of the biggest questions at this hour remains where exactly are those so-called black boxes? The leader of one pro-Russian rebel group seen here with his guard says his supporters may have recovered those devices. He says they will be turned over eventually to international investigators but stresses they are not going to give them to the Ukrainian government.

Also this video shot on Friday apparently also was distributed today by Reuters. It appears to show one of the flight recorders being carried from a field. There is no real way to confirm what exactly that man is holding.

In terms of the search for those 298 people aboard flight 17, 27 more bodies have been found bringing the total number recovered thus far to 233. Pro-Russian rebels say they've transferred almost 200 bodies to refrigerated train cars, but they've given no word on when they might release those bodies to recovery teams or frankly, exactly as to where they're going.

And as the investigation struggle to gain putting, the leaders of Britain, Germany, The Netherlands, the United States, all speaking out against Russia's Vladimir Putin. And in the words of Australian leader Tony Abbott, quote, "Russia can't wash its hands of this."

Earlier in the day secretary of state John Kerry told CNN that the missile system that brought down flight 17 can be traced back to Russia.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hand of separatists. We know with confidence, with confidence that the Ukrainians did not have such a system anywhere near the vicinity at that point in time. So it obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN crews are on the ground very close to the flight 17 crash scene.

Our Phil Black joins me now from Donetsk.

Phil, today, the Ukrainian government releasing yet another audio recording, this one seeming to show rebels trying, one, to get their hands on the plane's flight recorders even talking about how Russia wants to get its hands on them.

Now, when these recordings were released earlier, U.S. officials said they couldn't confirm them but later said they believe them to be true. What about this latest one? Does it look to be authentic?

PHIL BLACK, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting, Jim. This comes the same day that the rebel leadership says that, yes, we do have items in our possession that may be the cockpit voice and data recorders. A day ago they denied it. They said we're not touching the wreckage. We don't want to contaminate the scene. So no, we don't have anything like that. Haven't seen them.

Now they say they think they do have them, will not hand them over to Ukraine. Only to international expert when they get there because they said they don't trust the Ukrainian government.

Well, the Ukrainian government doesn't trust them too much either. And that's why they released these audio recordings, which you mentioned, they claimed say the Ukrainian government, that they show or I should say they are indicate or they are recording of a conversation between various rebels talking about the need to track down the black boxes because nameless people in Moscow are demanding that they do so. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACK: Jim, we can't verify just how accurate these recordings are. But the Ukrainian government says it's another big piece of evidence which backs up their case, a case which is clearly gathering support around the world that Russia had a hand not only in the weapon that was used to shoot down the aircraft, but now in attempting to cover up the fact that a weapon likely from Russia was used in shooting down the aircraft.

That is the Ukrainian case. You've heard it as one that the United States administration is clearly has considerable belief in as well. But the militants on the ground insist they know they have nothing to do with it. They've insisted they're not trying to cover up anything as well, Jim.

SCIUTTO: It is a bit -- you fairly, you listen to that recording, it is almost like if you wanted to script something to be the proof that the Russians wanted to be the black boxes, it would be scripted just exactly like that. So, it is an information war. And we should remind our viewers of that.

I wonder if we can talk about the crash scene today. Because there have been some reports that the various international observers have had a bit better access. But at the same time some really shocking reports coming out. And I was reading earlier, Phil, that there was evidence that some people had stolen credit cards off some of the deceased passengers and used them. I mean, more evidence of people interfering with that site. I wonder what you're hearing and what you were seeing there today?

BLACK: Jim, we've certainly seen evidence of people interfering. Yes, clearly things have been moved around. We've seen personal effects piled up. Clip bags opened. That sort of things. But we don't know by who, we don't know what their intent was. We haven't seen any direct evidence of things being stolen or, as you suggested those reports of credit cards being taken and perhaps used as well.

But there's certainly a question mark over all of this, and that's because of the security at the site and the various crash sites across this very wide debris field, the security is so poor. The main impact areas that we saw today were more secure certainly. And I think that is an improvement to what it was just 24 hours ago. But in terms of mounting a proper investigation here and ensuring that this scene wasn't tampered with, the proper security wasn't in place and the investigators, the experts are still not on the ground.

SCIUTTO: Incredible. These days after the attack, the investigators are still not there.

Thanks very much, Phil Black, one of the first to get there himself.

Well, since the crash of Malaysian airlines flight 17, the Ukrainian government and pro-Russian rebels have traded accusations over who is to blame. Just ahead, the U.S. intelligence on who exactly did this.

And as the Israeli offensive widens, the prime minister talks about what it will take for the fighting to end.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: And welcome back.

The world is now demanding answers about how a large commercial aircraft carrying nearly 300 people could be shot out of the skies over Europe.

HARLOW: And now a few pieces of crucial evidence have been obtained by the United States. Here is CNN's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Unknown to the world pro-Russian rebels secretly moved a heavy arsenal of weapons into place days ago. Weapons that would lead to the shoot down of Malaysia airlines flight 17 according to a U.S. intelligence analysis.

KERRY: There was a convoy about several weeks ago, about 150 vehicles with armed personnel carrier, multiple rocket launchers, tanks, artillery, all of which crossed over from Russia into the eastern part of Ukraine and was turned over to the separatists.

STARR: On Thursday, within hours of the plane dropping off radar, the U.S. suspected a shoot down. The dossier to prove it was assembled by U.S. military and intelligence analysts scouring highly classified data from spy satellites, radars and phone intercepts.

They narrowed in on two pieces of critical information detected by U.S. satellite and radar feeds. First, a surface-to-air missile system had been turned on in a separatist-controlled area in eastern Ukraine.

A moment later a U.S. satellite captured the heat signature of a midair explosion.

KERRY: We know that within hours of this event this particular system passed through two towns right in the vicinity of the shoot down. We know because we observed it by imagery that at the moment of the shoot down, we detected a launch from that area and our trajectory shows that it went to the aircraft.

STARR: The conclusion -- a Russian-supplied Buk surface-to-air missile launcher shot down the flight. The evidence, according to the analysis posted by the state department, intercepts of separatist communications posted on You Tube by the Ukrainian government indicate that separatists were in the possession of an SA-11 system as early as Monday, July 14th. The SA-11, the western name for the Buk.

U.S. intelligence matched those voices to other separatist recordings. The rebels claim to have shot down a military transport plane. When it became clear it was a passenger jet, social media posts were quickly deleted.

Then there was this. A quick shot of what is believed to be the Buk missile launcher on its way back to Russia. Further evidence of a Russian connection, U.S. intelligence has identified a facility in southwest Russia where rebel fighters have been trained on surface-to- air missile systems.

The U.S. also says more than a dozen aircraft were shot down over eastern Ukraine in recent months, more than previously acknowledged. Could the Ukrainians have shot down flight 17? The U.S. says no. Ukraine has the same weapons, but none of those weapons were in the region at the time.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: Thanks to Barbara Starr for her excellent reporting throughout on all of this.

The full picture of how and why flight 17 came down over eastern Ukraine is still far from clear despite all that Barbara did lay out. But how long until the conclusive answers do start emerging?

SCIUTTO: We want to get some of those answers. We want to bring in our panel now.

CNN military analyst Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, former FAA safety inspector and CNN safety analyst David Soucie and also, former CIA operative and CNN national security analyst Bob Baer.

Great to have you all back.

David, I want to get to you first, just in light of your background as a safety analyst, as to why this plane was still flying over this part of the country, and not so much to get at the airline for making the decision but to get to the regulators who let it fly. Just before they had set the safe ceiling at 31,000 or 32,000 feet,

this plane was at 33,000 feet. As a flier, that's not a very comfortable margin of error for me and I would imagine for our viewers as well. Plus, in light of more and more we're hearing U.S. Intel had knowledge of a weapons capability from these pro-Russian separatists including these surface-to-air missiles. Why was that plane still allowed to fly over that war zone?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: That's an excellent question. And it comes down to one thing. And that's with safety, safety is based on assumptions, assumptions that are made based on intelligence. And that intelligence didn't get to the right people. That intelligence was held up somehow, whether from the Ukrainians, whether from the Ukraine communication to the international civil aviation organization which is an arm of the United Nations, that information didn't get there.

This is disruptive technology, though. You have to couch this a little bit because this system and the safety systems that are designed right now and with IKO and with the rules and regulations that are set up right now are based on one thing. And that is that the takeoff and landing is the most vulnerable part of the flight and that technology which is available to separatists and folks that are threats are focusing on those areas.

Now, we have this disruptive technology that the system wasn't designed to consider but they have to now. The IKO needs to step forward with rules and has to be more diligent about making these rules and getting them out right away.

HARLOW: Yes, I think this begs the question does this demand a sea change of, you know, protocol now.

SOUCIE: Yes.

HARLOW: And to Colonel Francona, I want you to listen to some sound. This came from CNN Candy Crowley's program "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning. Senate intelligence committee chair, Dianne Feinstein, talking to her about this incident. Listen and I will get your reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)\

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: There are a lot of things that one can say as well as planes shouldn't have been over there in first place. But the fact of the matter is that to use this kind of launching missile that travels at two to three times the speed of sound, that takes just seconds to get there, that's made for an entirely different purpose, to take down whether it is transports or helicopters, and in this case a very large passenger plane filled with almost 300 people including 80 children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Eighty children. Let's talk about what this is made up of. Because the Buk is not just one, it is actually part of a much larger system of four parts of weaponry. However, as we discussed yesterday, it can still operate like that by itself. And if it doesn't have all the components, you missed key parts in terms of the most sophisticated parts of the radar.

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes. And that's the problem with this. If you just have this one piece, the TELAR, The transport and erecter launcher and radar, it can function independently. But it's meant to function as part of a system where you got an acquisition radar that has identification of friend or foe, can query the aircraft, can also find the exact altitude, not just a piece of metal in the sky, but actually real detailed data about it.

HARLOW: And you think that's what it did.

FRANCONA: I think that's what happened because if they had the acquisition radar, it wouldn't have engaged this target. It would have been patently obvious that this was a civilian aircraft.

HARLOW: Jim?

SCIUTTO: Bob, if I can, I want to get back to you. We talked about this a little bit yesterday. But just the entirely new territory we're in now, if you have weapons of this power that are able to threaten civilian aircraft at an altitude that we thought, until three days ago, was safe, that's no longer the case. I mean, there's a responsibility issue here where should these warnings have gone out before this plane went down. But let's forget about that for a moment and look forward.

What needs to be done now to make air travel safe knowing that these kind of weapons are out there and in the hands of not very reliable militant groups, how do you make flying safe going forward?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Jim, I think this is pretty much a wake-up call. I mean, these systems, the SA-11 isn't just in the Ukraine. You've got parts of it in Syria, you have got, you know, you can come across the border into Iraq. You've got hundreds of missing shoulder-fired weapons from Libya that are going through Africa and in these areas of conflict, whether it is Nigeria or the Caucasus, these planes are vulnerable. And I think this is a sea change, and we just cannot be flying over these places.

There has to be better coordination between intelligence services and civil air authorities. I mean, that plane should not have been flying over the southeastern Ukraine. A transport had already been shot down. That should have been warning enough, but it was ignored. I think we're underestimating these conflicts and it's time to catch up.

SCIUTTO: You know, Poppy, an incredible idea, isn't it? Bob making the point, these weapons systems not just in eastern Ukraine but in Syria, Iraq. And as we know, there are groups in Syria and Iraq, ISIS, the one we've been talking about for a long time, that I'm sure would have no hesitation aiming at civilian aircraft.

HARLOW: Right. Yes, and there are planes flying over these regions, you know, as we speak. And this is something that really questions policy a and international policy right now in terms of these aircraft. We are going to be talking throughout the next hour. And also, with the 777 pilot dealing with these issues right now.

Colonel Francona, David Soucie, Bob Baer, thank you very much.

Breaking news today also Hamas claiming it has captured an Israeli soldier. Our Atika Shubert is live with all that -- Atika.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'll be telling you what the Israeli defense forces say not only about that possible kidnapping but also the losses they suffered over the last 24 hours when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Breaking news now from the border between Israel and Gaza. Hamas claims it has captured an Israeli soldier. Israel has not commented on that claim, though.

SCIUTTO: This could be a major development on this especially deadly day of fighting between Israel and Hamas. The group is naming the soldier and threatening him saying his fate rests with what Israel says and does mow.

HARLOW: Our Atika Shubert is there right on the border between Israel and Gaza. Let's talk about this claim. Because it's interesting that the Israeli government has not responded yet. Michael Oren, the former Israeli ambassador to the United States saying earlier here on CNN that he believes if the Israeli government had confirmed this, they would be telling the public about it. What do you know at this hour in terms of this claim, its legitimacy and exactly what segment of Hamas it's coming from?

SHUBERT: Well, it's coming from the Qassam brigades. And this is basically their military wing. They've been carrying out most of the attacks on the Israeli forces successfully it appears in the last 24 hours, which is why this new claim is being taken quite seriously.

But we have not been able to independently confirm this claim. We are looking into it. We have asked the Israel defense forces, but they've simply said they're aware of the reports and they're looking into it.

But obviously, a lot of questions being asked because you have to consider that in the last 24 hours, 13 soldiers have been killed, all part of the Golani brigade. But there's not been any word from the IDF at all about the possibility of a soldier being taken hostage. So many asking if this was true, why wasn't this somehow, you know, brought about earlier. So still a lot of questions being asked here, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Atika, this is a tough day regardless for the Israeli military, 13 dead. Deadliest day for the Israeli side of the conflict. More deaths combined than in their previous two Gaza operations in 2009 and 2012. And now you have this prisoner possibly.

I wonder where, you know, the Israeli public is, to this point they've been behind Netanyahu, behind the operation, but you lose 13 soldiers, you possibly have another Israeli soldier captured by Hamas. How quickly does it change the public support for the operation?

SHUBERT: We really don't know yet, but this is definitely, frankly a punch in the gut for the Israeli public to see this kind of a death toll on the Israeli side. I don't think was expected by many Israelis.

In 24 hours to lose 13 soldiers from an established elite infantry brigade, the Golani brigade, is a historic one with a good reputation here in Israel. It has a lot of support. And so for that reason, to lose so many soldiers is quite a blow.

If then on top of it, you now have this news of a possible soldier being kidnapped and held hostage, you're dealing what is really the worst fears of many people here in Israel. They still have very bad memory of Gilad Schalit, the other Israeli soldier who was kidnapped, held hostage for years.

So there's a lot of concern here. Will it change public opinion? This news right now is still new fresh to tell, Jim.

HARLOW: And when you talk about that, there is real precedent here when you talk about Gilad Schalit being kidnapped by Hamas in 2006, held for five years, eventually handed back over to Israel in a prisoner exchange with more than 1,000 Palestinians being released.

The question becomes central here, I think, is morale both on the side of those in Gaza who our viewers just saw cheering in the streets on news and morale on the side of Israel. Thus this, could this, if this is indeed confirmed, change the game in terms of Israel's willingness to make some concessions at the bargaining table here?

SHUBERT: I think it could be a game changer, but we still really have to see. We have not confirmed this yet.

And you know, you have to remember, Hamas has done things like this in the past where it's said it's done something, and then it turned the reality has turned out to be quite different. So we still have to wait for that.

But it could certainly change public opinion depending on what turns. But even without the possibility of a soldier being kidnapped, the fact that 13 soldiers have been lost so quickly in just, you know, the beginning of what is the extension of this ground operation, that's already a shock to the public here.

So the question is, is this going to mean that the public says, you know, let's pull back the operation or do they say, no, hit harder, fix this problem once and for all. There is certainly a segment of society here that says they want to go in much more aggressively and even take over all of the Gaza Strip. And so, we'll have to see which way this turns public opinion.

HARLOW: And we did hear just hours ago earlier today from multiple Israeli officials saying to their people, prepare for the long haul here. Of course, that is before this news came out.

Atika Shubert, appreciate the reporting for us on the Israel/Gaza border.

SCIUTTO: And we should also mention to our viewers also the deadliest day on the Palestinian side of the conflict. Some 87 people killed there as of last count on the Gaza side of the border.

A short time ago I spoke with former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. Michael Oren about these reports of the captured Israeli soldier. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL OREN, FORMER ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO UNITED STATES: This has already been a very tragic day in Israel. The death of 13 soldiers in one night last night. And Prime Minister Netanyahu, and the defense minister Ya'alon gave a public press conference tonight as to address that tragic loss and to sort of buffet up the Israeli public opinion as this ground incursion of operation protective edge moves forward.

They did not mention the kidnapping of a soldier, though, that would be one of Hamas' primary objectives. One of the reasons they've dug so many tunnels so deeply from the Gaza Strip under the border into Israeli territory has been with the express purpose of capturing Israelis, soldiers or civilians, bringing them back to Gaza, holding them hostage and exchanging them later for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.

This was the case of Corporal Gilad Schalit who was capture just that way and held for five years and eventually exchanged for more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Please stay with us. Our Wolf Blitzer spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu today. We are going to hear his interview with him after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

Our owned Wolf Blitzer is in Jerusalem. And earlier today, he sat down with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to talk about the escalating violence in Gaza and the role of religious extremist.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, SITUATION ROOM: And many Israeli friends have said to me they are deeply concerned about what they see in this rise, tiny but very violent and dangerous Jewish extremism. We saw that with that murder of that young Palestinian boy and the aftermath of those three Israeli teenagers who were kidnapped and killed.

How concerned are you about this? Because that police report that came out in that murder of that -- you've read that. That was awful.

NETANYAHU: Well, here's the difference. We don't glorify these killers. We apprehended them three days after that tragic killing, immediately put them custody, we're putting them on trial. They'll serve a good chunk of their lives in jail. That's what we do with the killers. We don't name public squares after them. We don't glorify them. We don't educate our people, our children in suicide kindergarten camps as happens in the Palestinian side and you should see what Hamas is educating them to. No peace, no two-state solution, nothing, just jihad.

More and more violence, more and more murder and more and more bloodshed. This is not our way. We have, I think, a society that's tested not by the extreme fringes of that society but how it takes care of them. We take care of those extreme fringes. We basically isolate them and ostracize them and punish them.

I think what you see in Palestinian society, but especially in Gaza is that these people are lionized. And the worst thing that I see, the worst thing, is they use their children, they use their civilians. They don't give any thought about them. I mean, the Hamas leaders are divided into two -- those who are in underground bunkers in Gaza, they don't care. Let the people there with the racketeers and with the attack tunnels, let them die as Israel tries to surgically take them out.

But they're safe underground, the military leaders. And then they've got the political leader. This guy (INAUDIBLE). He's roaming around five-star hotel suites in the Gulf States having the time of his life while his people, while he's deliberately putting his people as a fodder for this horrible terrorist war that they're conducting against us.

So this has to stop. And I think many people in Gaza understand that Hamas is destroying Gaza, destroying their lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Wolf Blitzer with a smart look into the bitter emotions on both sides of this conflict going on now in Gaza.

HARLOW: Yes. Meantime, a family of six killed in the crash of Malaysia airlines flight 17, a family of six. One community that is reeling from the shock of that trying to cope in any way they can. We'll bring you their story straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: We want to give you an update on the crash investigation of Malaysia airlines flight 17.

Pro-Russian rebels have moved at least 192 victims' bodies to refrigerated train cars. So far the remains of more than 230 of the 298 people on board that plane have been recovered. Though, those bodies still going to rebel-controlled territory. The crash investigation remains a struggle as well, with armed rebels

blocking access to different parts of the 13-square mile debris field. And there is confusion over whether rebel searches may have found at least one of the so-called black box data recorders.

Meantime, western leaders are demanding that Russia's President Vladimir Putin pressured rebel forces to step aside so that crash investigators can do their work.

HARLOW: And nearly two-thirds of the people on board that doomed flight were Dutch. Six of them from one family.

Our Saima Mohsin has that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SAIMA MOHSIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A teenager unable to understand why her friend is gone. That's her?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

MOHSIN: She wanted to talk to me. We'll do it for Jinta, her friend said. But she couldn't speak. 15-year-old Jinta was on flight MH-17 with her parents, brother and two sisters heading on their summer holiday to Kuala Lumpur.

ELAINE MANDERS, FRIEND KILLED IN UKRAINE CRASH: Every time happy.

MOHSIN: You grew up together?

MANDERS: Yes. Every day we saw her as a good friend. She was good.

MOHSIN: And you wrote this note for her.

MANDERS: Yes.

MOHSIN: Can you tell me what it says?

MANDERS: It says that every time right here with us.

MOHSIN: Throughout the day we saw people from across this community bringing tributes, lighting candles. A group of passing cyclists stopped for a moment to pay their respects.

This man tells me he didn't know the family. He isn't from here. But felt compelled to drive here to say a prayer and leave flowers.

Across the village of (INAUDIBLE), we found rows of houses flying their flags at half mast.

PETER VAN DER BURG, NEIGHBOR OF THE FAMILY KILLED IN CRASH: The community is still in shock, in a fairly deep level of shock because it wasn't a well-known family. And I think people are still trying to handle the situation.

MOHSIN: Among the tributes, these hearts with the names of all members of the family, six of them. And children at the school where the youngest went, the youngest of the four children, they wrote notes at the memorial yesterday and stuck it to this tree.

This one addressed to Brett, the eldest son saying, Brett, I'll miss you. Dear family, you didn't deserve this.

This note from one of the friends of one of the girls saying, you will now be a bright star.

This message from the teacher saying, I can't believe I won't see you again.

And this message is actually from the children's baby-sitter, so she has all the names of the children here. And she says, no words and then one simply, why.

Gone so suddenly, so brutally, untimely deaths for a young family friends loved so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't understand it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She thinks she come back to here, but can't.

MOHSIN: Saima Mohsin, CNN, (INAUDIBLE), near Amsterdam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: That's heartbreaking. Their loved ones are gone, now family members of those killed on board the downed airliner are living another nightmare, not knowing when or if they will get to bury their loved ones or where their remains are going to go. We're going to dig into that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Three days after Malaysia airlines flight 17 was shot out of the sky, the families of those aboard are suffering unimaginable grief. And just today, the remains of 192 of those victims were loaded on to refrigerated train cars, but it appears that they are not even close to being returned home for a proper burial.

Joining me now, CNN aviation correspondent, Richard Quest, in New York in me, also Les Abend, who flies the 777 currently and Miles O'Brien, our aviation analyst joining us as well.

Richard, let me start with you. When you talk about how these bodies have been handled, it has been anything but dignified. You know, there have been reports of looting, of credit cards, of valuables being taken. We have seen some horrifying images.

Now, apparently, three days later, being put into refrigerated train cars. We don't yet know where they're going. We suppose they're going to Donetsk, but we don't even know. RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: No, we don't. The rebels

say that they are awaiting international experts. They have also said that they have made plans for the trains to be taken to Donetsk, but we have no confirmation on anything.

Now, these are refrigerated vehicles, but they are not refrigerated to sufficient levels and certainly they are not meeting the sort of international standards that would be respected or expected for human remains like this.

So, the abhorrent situation continues. And crucially, Poppy, there's still no ability to get the experts in. These bodies were recovered by some emergency service workers from Ukraine, some OSCE, and volunteers. Now, it is a mod couple of progress, but it is by no means satisfactory.

HARLOW: And the fact that you have some of the pro-Russian rebels saying today that if indeed what they have is that so-called black box, that they have no intention of turning it over, at least to Ukrainian authorities, so, what owes a he is to say they will turn over victims to Ukrainian authorities?

QUEST: I think that -- things are slightly different. I think the black boxes, if they have got them as they say they have, they say they will hand them over to international experts. But international experts, the WIB, the NTSB, the BEA, all the people are now gathering in Kiev, they have got to get there. Now, we know there is one from the NTSB, since from the British, several to the French, they have got to get to the region.

HARLOW: And they need many more on the ground to do this.

Miles, when you talk about what the families want, of course, they want their loved ones back and they can't have that, but at least they want all of the answers that they can get. Now, as you and I talked about extensively yesterday, they know a lot about what happened here already. However, if authorities are unable to uncover or receive those black boxes, it -- does this really critically hamper a full and final investigation or is there enough evidence outside of what may be on those data recorders for the families to get full knowledge of what has transpired?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: I think the latter is largely true, Poppy. It's always nice to know more, but we know enough. And it's important also to remember that while it was, in fact, a missile that brought this aircraft down, like any aircraft accident or tragedy or incident like this, it is a chain of events that occurs that leads up to it and that includes a whole series of events that occurred, the fact that the flight plan was flown over Ukraine, the fact that the separatists didn't declare a no-fly zone over the turf that they held as province.

The fact that Ukraine allowed over flights of civilian airliners over their territory, perhaps because the airlines pay permits to do that. The fact that the Russians allowed these surface-to-air missiles across the border. All these things, if you pull any one of those things out of the chain, the chain breaks and there's no incident. And so there's a big picture which extends beyond the wreckage field.

HARLOW: I want to bring Les Abend in, but Miles, please feel free to jump in on this question as well, and you too, Richard.

I mean, Les, you currently fly a 777. In terms of the control you have as a pilot over exactly the route you are going to take, first of all, what first comes to your mind when you're given the flight plan, right, depending on whether et cetera, and how much control do you have to say I'm not comfortable with this? Because we are talking about 1,000-foot difference here between they weren't allowed to fly under 32,000 feet. They were flying 33,000 feet in this region?

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, first of all, I have to be aware, like Miles was talking about, I have to be aware that this threat potentially exists out there.

HARLOW: But that was pretty clear. I mean, the FAA had warned about this area.

ABEND: Well, the FAA did but, you know, to what extent was it a threat to that particular airplane or airplanes. I mean, there were over 800 flights that went through that area within the week prior to this incident.

Dispatch and myself as a captain make that decision. But generally, we do it electronically. I mean, we are not dealing with this kind of threat, at least from the states in any case. So the last thing in our mind as pilots is the fact that we have the potential to be shot down by a missile.

QUEST: But if -- if you had boarded that plane or you were about to take that flight and you'd read in the news about what had happened earlier in the week, would a captain ever have the gumption, whatever I'd like to say to dispatch, I see where you want me to go. I'm not comfortable, I want to go that way?

ABEND: Absolutely and that's something that I can talk with the dispatcher about, more fuel would be required, now we are up against some pressure as far as if we add more fuel, do we have to dump some passengers and cargo?

HARLOW: Right.

ABEND: And if that's the case, I can be firm enough about it to say, no, this is not -- not a situation I want to deal. I may have to answer to a chief pilot. Chances are with my airline, it would never be questioned, but these are -- this is the kind of stuff you deal with dispatch.

HARLOW: Miles, quickly to you, your pilot as well, quickly, does this change the game in terms of looking at your flight plan?

O'BRIEN: I don't ever want to be on a plane where the captain can't veto the flight plan because he is concerned about safety, period. Commercial interests are important. The airline needs to stay in business. Safety should always be first. And the honest to goodness truth is day after day, it isn't always that way.

HARLOW: Miles O'Brien, Richard Quest, Les Abend, thank you for your expertise. We will bring you on later in the show. We appreciate it.

Meantime, the top five questions we have on the shoot down of MH-17, we are going to break them down, straight ahead.

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