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Trainload of Bodies Arrives in Donetsk; Kerry Travels to Egypt for Cease-Fire Talks; Are MH17 Black Boxes in Hands of Rebels?

Aired July 21, 2014 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks a lot, Kate. Have a great day.

NEWSROOM starts now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Happening now in the NEWSROOM, the U.S. doubles down on Russia.

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a moment of truth for Russia.

COSTELLO: Putin tries to deflect.

PRES. VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIA (Through Translator): No one should have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives.

COSTELLO: But the world isn't buying it as outrage grows for Putin to take responsibility.

ARSENIY YATSENIUK, UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER: And it's crystal career that any Russian drunken gorilla cannot manage this system.

TONY ABBOTT, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: Having those people in control of the site is a little like leaving criminals in control of the crime scene.

COSTELLO: Also --

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: The battle along the Gaza Strip has been taking a very, very ugly turn.

COSTELLO: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu calls for another ceasefire.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: We're sad for every civilian casualty. They're not intended.

COSTELLO: As the U.S. heads to Egypt to try to broker a peace deal.

Plus, $23.6 billion, a jury tells RJ Reynolds to pony up for the death of a longtime smoker.

Let's talk live in the CNN NEWSROOM. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: Good morning, I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We begin with Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

The international anger grows, the American accusation sharpened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: Russia is supporting these separatists, Russia is arming these separatists. Russia is training these separatists. And Russia has not yet done the things necessary in order to try to bring them under control.

SEN. DIANE FEINSTEIN (D), CHAIRWOMAN, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: The issue is where is Putin, and I would say Putin, you have to man up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Four days after a missile brought down the airliner with nearly 300 people on board, the sprawling trail of wreckage remains in the hands of rebels. And under the control of no one. Victims' valuables stolen, clues trampled, evidence seized and Putin lashing out at the world that's demanding answers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PUTIN (Through Translator): However, no one should have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives. Such events should not divide but unite people. It is necessary that all the people who are responsible for the situation in the region would direct their responsibility to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have been victims of this disaster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: But Putin is not even saying that unity at home in Moscow, Russians leave handwritten apologies and heartfelt condolences in a makeshift shrine outside the Dutch embassy in Moscow.

We are covering all angles of this developing story. We have mobilized correspondents and experts around the globe. But we want to go straight to the crashing eastern Ukraine.

CNN's Chris Cuomo is there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: A show of force by those controlling MH-17's crash site. The devastation seen here surrounded by hostility as those in control are the very people suspected of shooting the plane down over eastern Ukraine. Startling satellite photos show acres of ground scorched by the explosion at the point of impact. On the ground we're told hundreds of bodies removed at the hands of

government emergency workers along with a group of coal miners, inexperienced but allowed in by pro-Russian rebels. The remains of more than 250 loaded into two refrigerated trains.

The Ukrainian government negotiating with militants for the bodies to be transported with no information about when they will be identified or where they'll end up.

The scene here exposed, fuelling international concerns of tampered evidence.

(On camera): You can tell that this piece hit, rolled and then was moved. And that's going to be a really big distinction for investigators.

(Voice-over): Russian President Vladimir Putin insisted a team of international experts conduct work on the site to ensure security. Rebel leaders claim to have the plane's cockpit voice and data recorders, which may hold critical information about MH-17's last moments.

In audio intercepts released by the Ukrainian government, the alleged commander says Moscow is very interested in the black boxes and urges his subordinate to find them. CNN cannot independently confirm the authenticity of that audio.

Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence points to the mounting evidence of Russia's involvement, including evidence that pro-Russian rebels secretly moved a heavy arsenal of weapons into place days before the crash.

KERRY: We have a video showing the -- a launcher moving back through a particular area there out into Russia with a missing -- at least one missing missile on it. So we have enormous sort of input about this which points fingers.

CUOMO: This is that video posted by Ukraine's Interior Ministry of a BUK missile launcher heading back into Russia, suggesting it had conducted a launch according to the U.S. embassy in Kiev.

I spoke with the rebel prime minister about those accusations.

(On camera): The belief of the Western community and of Ukraine is that a Russian missile brought down this plane and there is suspicion that it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that?

ALEXANDER BORODAI, REBEL LEADER (Through Translator): I don't know what to say because the world community doesn't want to hear it. We had no reason to take down this plane and Ukraine had this reason to destroy our government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: All right. Chris Cuomo, we either have him on the phone or at the scene, which do we have? He is live.

OK, Chris, you're at the crash site, I know your equipment was overheating and we lost you for a bit. But tell us the latest. There doesn't seem to be any investigators at al behind you at the crash site.

CUOMO: You know what, your observation is 100 percent correct, Carol. If you look over my shoulder, this is the final resting place of MH-17 and literally it's just strewn with media right now. Hopefully they're being responsible. Obviously many are not. It's been open to locals. Most importantly it's been under the control of the militias who are under or in the circle of suspicion for what brought MH-17 out of the sky and had it crash land in the middle of a battle zone.

This is the problem. This is why you must have international help. And we pursued this with the self-appointed prime minister. He says he's been giving access, he says he wants to cooperate, but he has what they believe to be the black boxes. He hasn't turned them over yet. So there is a need for real corrective action here, right away. Not just because of the politics, but because 298 people who had nothing to do with this conflict lost their lives. And they lost their dignity because of how this scene has been handled, Carol. And that is a real shame.

COSTELLO: In your piece, Chris, we saw what looked like a rebel carrying one of the plane's recording devices. Do we know where that recording device is? I know you speak to this -- you spoke to this rebel commander. What did he tell you about that?

CUOMO: Yes. That's what I'm referring to. He says he thinks he has the black boxes, he showed pictures of these things that he believes to be the black boxes, to the OSCE, an international monitoring body. They said, yes, these look like black boxes. As we know almost too well from MH-370 a black box is a pretty obvious looking thing. The question is, why did they remove them from the scene and where are they now?

Those are questions that have not been answered and they will not be answered until you have the appropriate types of people on the ground here to make things happen.

COSTELLO: All right. Chris Cuomo, we'll get back to you. Thanks so much.

And you heard Chris say it, those grieving families from all over the world are waiting to get their loved ones' bodies back so they can bury -- bury their bodies and have some sort of closure if there is such a thing. Ukraine's outspoken prime minister says the Russian backed rebels are holding those victims hostage. He claims men he calls bastards and bloody gorillas are not letting refrigerated trains filled with some 251 bodies leave the railway station at a coal mining town in eastern Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARSENIY YATSENIUK, UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER: We sent two trains, four cars, of which right now are located in Torez City. This bloody gorillas do not tell the train to leave the area. We expect that the train will leave the area as soon as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: CNN's Phil Black is live in Donetsk.

Phil, what do you know about these trains?

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that for the first time, Carol, professionals from the outside of this region have been able to lay their eyes upon these bodies and the conditions in which they are being kept in. That's significant. As these three Dutch forensic experts that have traveled here and entered this region touring the site today.

The train, we understand, is still -- well, it is still in this location. In rebel held territory. The plans for its movements and to what location, they are still not known. And complicating all of this, and it is really the key reason why all of this is so slow, the fact that this is an active conflict zone.

Here in Donetsk, about an hour's drive from the crash site, from the area where those bodies are being kept, we can hear and see the result, the smoke on the horizon, the artillery blasts from the ongoing military operation, between Ukrainian government forces and those pro-Russian separatists as well.

It is taking place to the north and northwest of the city, around the airport, but crucially also around the train line and the command train station there. So there is also a question, if -- about if they plan to move those bodies and those trains which are now holding them, will they be able to do so. And has fighting damaged the train line? Is it safe to do so? If it needs to be moved from an active military zone. All of these questions not yet -- not yet answered.

It is very complex. It is moving as we speak, really. But it all comes down to the fact that this is an active military zone. And that means that all of this is a lot harder than it's supposed to be -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. So I'll ask you a naive question. Why not call a ceasefire and allow those bodies to be moved? Wouldn't that be the humane thing to do?

BLACK: Common sense would suggest yes, absolutely. And there's been talk of that as an idea really from the moment it became -- we became aware that that plane had struck the earth in that location. And since then we have just heard a lot of claim and counterclaim from the two sides. The Ukrainian government and the pro-Russian separatists. Both really blaming each other at every stage. Not just in terms of the air disaster itself, but also in the best way to respond to it. Who is holding things up. Who is letting the experts in or not letting the experts in. Both tell very different stories.

And you come -- you really hit a very key reality here, and that is that ultimately none of this is going to be possible until both of those sides find enough common ground to agree upon an adequate response to a disaster of this scale. And it is only when that happens that these bodies are going to start to be treated with the dignity they really, really deserve -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Phil Black reporting live for us this morning. Thanks so much.

The other big story this morning, fierce fighting between Israel and Hamas takes an ugly turn as the death toll rises in the Middle East. Now the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is speaking out defending operations in Gaza and blaming Hamas for the escalation and violence.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer talked to Netanyahu. He'll join us from Jerusalem with more.

Hi, Wolf.

BLITZER: Hey, Carol. The prime minister is not backing down at all. He says Israel will continue its military operations against Hamas in Gaza.

And I also pressed him, when we had a chance to sit down, on whether he agrees with President Obama that a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas along the lines of what was achieved in November 2012 should be on the table right now. That when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: This morning, as violence between Israel and Hamas spirals out of control, Secretary of State John Kerry is on his way to Cairo, Egypt, to try to broker a cease-fire.

Before Kerry left, though, he was caught on an open mike between interviews on FOX News talking about crisis with one of his aides. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLI)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a hell of a pinpoint operation. It's a hell of a pinpoint operation.

KERRY'S AIDE: Right. It is escalating significantly and underscores the need for a cease-fire.

KERRY: We've got to get over there. Thank you, John. I think, John, we ought to go tonight. I think it's crazy to be sitting around.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Kerry's comments underscore the escalating violence in the region. Yesterday marked the deadliest day of the conflict so far. In all, more than a dozen Israeli soldiers and nearly 90 Palestinians were killed. Among the dead, two Americans, one from California, the other from Texas, they had dual citizenship, United States and Israeli citizenship -- that's all according to the State Department.

I want to bring in Wolf Blitzer now. He's in Jerusalem. He sat down with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who again called for a cease-fire.

Tell us more, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We had an opportunity to meet at the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv and we went through a lot of specific issues. But I want to get a sense of how close he is to accepting a cease-fire. Remember, the Israelis did accept a cease-fire, Hamas rejected a cease-fire after six hours. The Israelis resumed their airstrikes, their naval strikes, Hamas continued its rocket and missile launchings during that so-called cease-fire.

So when we spoke, we had this exchange. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The president, President Obama, he urged you the other day to - all the parties to return to the cease-fire that was reached in November 2012. Are you accepting his proposal, go back to that cease- fire?

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Already did. I already did.

BLITZER: If Hamas were to say to you right now, we accept the cease- fire, would Israel withdraw its forces from Gaza?

NETANYAHU: That was the Egyptian proposal, which we accepted and they refused.

BLITZER: If they accepted now -- is it too late?

NETANYAHU: I don't know. I don't want to speak about it being too late. I think the first thing is a cessation of hostilities, but then we would have to get into --

BLITZER: Would Israel withdraw its forces as part of a cessation of hostilities?

NETANYAHU: Well, we would get into -- I believe -- first, we have to deal with this tunnel business, because we're not leaving those tunnels --

BLITZER: So, you would stay until those tunnels are destroyed?

(CROSSTALK)

NETANYAHU: We're doing that right now, as we speak.

BLITZER: How long is that going to take?

NETANYAHU: It's being done fairly quickly. But I think the important thing right now is not to begin to put terms. I think the important thing is to end the hostilities, and then get into a situation where we have a sustainable cease-fire. That means beginning to discuss the demilitarization of Gaza.

Gaza, under all the previous agreements, should have been demilitarized. Instead of being demilitarized, it became basically an Iranian-financed and equipped fortress of terror, with thousands and thousands of rockets and other weapons being smuggled and developed in it.

That has to stop. Those tunnels have to be shut down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: As you point out, Carol, the Secretary of State John Kerry is on his way to Cairo right now. He left Joint Base Andrews outside of Washington around 1:00 a.m. last night, should be arriving in Cairo in the next few hours. We fully anticipate from Cairo, he's going to make other stops. I suspect he'll be here in Jerusalem fairly soon as well -- Carol.

COSTELLO: So, a question for you about John Kerry -- you know, what can he really do?

BLITZER: I think what he's going to try to do is convince everyone to support the Egyptian cease-fire proposal. The new government in Cairo under President Al-Sisi is much more inclined to go along with what the Israelis want in Gaza as opposed to the earlier government of Mohamed Morsy, who is a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. There is no great love right now between Hamas in Gaza and the new Egyptian government.

But the Palestinian Authority leadership, President Mahmoud Abbas and others in the Arab League, they accepted that Egyptian proposal. The pressure will mount on all sides I suspect n the next day or two to come up with a cease-fire proposal.

From the Israeli perspective, Israeli military planners tell me they want to do as much destruction of Hamas, tunnels that go from Gaza into Israel, Hamas' military capability as possible, because they know there's going to be enormous pressure for that cease-fire and the withdrawal of Israeli forces who are inside Gaza right now, thousands of them, Carol, are there.

COSTELLO: All right. Wolf Blitzer, thanks so much.

Still to come, just one of many images from the site of MH17 crash. Rebels walking through the site with the device that could be one of the plane's recording devices. Rebels say they don't know if it is or not.

We'll talk to a former NTSB official next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COSTELLO: Fighting in Ukraine between rebel and government forces keeping Dutch investigators away from the crash site. That means evidence continues to be trampled on. As for the black boxes, well, Ukrainian rebels appear to have recovered them.

Take a look at this picture. You can see one of the rebels walking through the crash site with something that looks a lot like a black box.

I want to bring in CNN aviation analyst and former NTSB managing director Peter Goelz.

Welcome, Peter.

PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Good morning.

So, I want, Scottie, if you can put up the picture again, so peter can look at that, whatever the rebel is carrying.

Does that look like one of the plane's recording devices to you, Peter?

GOELZ: It certainly does. Little question about it.

COSTELLO: It must be disturbing to see it handled by someone who -- we don't know where it is at this point.

GOELZ: Well, yes, the real question is, where is it? And is anyone trying to download the data. You know, the most sensitive part of looking at these devices is when you initially download the data, if it is done incorrectly, with the wrong equipment, you can -- you can clear the memory and lose the data. So --

COSTELLO: It's unlikely the Ukrainian rebels would have something to get information from this black box, isn't it?

GOELZ: They would have no ability to do that, none whatsoever. The only folks over there would be the Russians. And if it is moved -- if the boxes have been moved to -- back to Moscow, to the air investigations bureau in Moscow, that raises a whole new set of questions.

COSTELLO: How likely is there incriminating evidence on this black box, do you think?

GOELZ: I think there is probably limited information because it looks from the wreckage field that this plane was violently torn apart at altitude. But there may be, you know, they can do extraordinary work with just a nanosecond of sound, particularly on the voice recorder, you can be able to tell the direction in which the sound is coming from. You can compare the sounds to previous recordings, for instance, comparing it to Lockerbie, comparing it to other planes that have been shot down by missiles, to see if there is similar signatures. So, I mean, it is going to be important. The real evidence is frankly

on the ground and what we have got already. There are teams in Kiev, the international civil aviation organization is ramping up and I think at -- when the Russians pressure the rebels, they'll be able to get in there and get the story told quickly.

COSTELLO: So the rebels are saying the Ukrainian government, the Russians are saying it is the Ukrainian government's fault. But the rebels are the ones not allowing crash investigators to examine the site easily. And they're also -- they have taken black boxes and they're not giving them up. I mean, what reason can you see for that if they're totally innocent of this?

GOELZ: There is no reason. I think -- I think the evidence is bordering on incontrovertible, that the rebels perhaps with Russian assistance were responsible for this. And given that this mountain of evidence, you know, it's not -- it is understandable why they're doing what they're doing. They're trying to figure out a way out of this. And there is no way out.

World opinion is building. The evidence is building. Russia and the rebels will be held accountable.

COSTELLO: Peter Goelz, thanks as always. I appreciate it.

GOELZ: Thank you, Carol.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)