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Russian Involvement; Crash Scene; Possible New Sanctions; Interview with Sen. Chris Murphy; Malaysia Airlines Offers Refunds on All Flights; Bill Clinton Weighs in on Gaza and Flight 17

Aired July 21, 2014 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: All right, another intriguing element to share with you into the investigation into the downing of MH17. Get this, U.S. intelligence officials are now trying to determine whether Russian personnel were actually on the scene when that plane was shot out of the sky. Let's head to the Pentagon and Barbara Starr, who turned up this information.

Tell us more, Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Carol.

Both U.S. intelligence agencies and the U.S. military looking at everything they have, trying to determine the answer to that question now. Were Russian personnel at the scene when the missile launched to shoot down flight 17? Were they there? Did they man the equipment? Did they give the order? Did they pull the trigger? This is the big unanswered question, the direct Russian involvement on the ground inside eastern Ukraine, when this shootdown happened.

U.S. officials say they're now looking at everything from social media to phone intercepts to try to gather intelligence on the ground directly about who knows what and whether anybody saw anything or heard anything that would indicate Russian personnel were there. If they were there, whose control were they under?

This is the big unanswered question now. There's a lot of information that came out over the weekend to the U.S. satisfaction confirming it was a Russian supplied surface-to-air missile system shipped into eastern Ukraine that shot down the plane, but who gave the order? Were the pro-rebel - the pro-Russian separatists fully equipped to carry the attack out on their own or did they have direct Russian help. This, Carol, now the big unanswered question according to several officials. They hope to come up with an answer.

Carol.

COSTELLO: Wow. Barbara Starr, thanks so much.

In eastern Ukraine, new satellite images show the charred earth where part of Flight 17 crashed into a rural area. Huge chunks of debris scattered across newly plowed fields, but the images, of course, don't capture the horror. Rebels remain in charge of the crash site that stretches on for miles. According to witnesses, those fighters have trampled evidence and stolen from the dead.

Let's head to the crash site. Chris Cuomo is actually there. He joins us by phone.

Good morning, Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, ANCHOR, CNN'S "NEW DAY" (via telephone): Hey, Carol.

The crash site is, once again, unsecured. Anybody who wants to, who can traipse through it. We were lucky in that villagers volunteered to show us big parts of the plane that haven't been discovered by the militants or any of these investigators and (INAUDIBLE) that they say they have helping to control the situation, once again showing the dire need for appropriate experts on the ground to salvage some measure of dignity. There are 298 people who would up losing their lives as part of a conflict that they had absolutely nothing to do with to be sure. MH l-17 crash landed into the middle of a battlefield.

And when it comes to how that happened and why that happened, and Barbara Starr's report about maybe there were Russians in attendance, we sat down with the self-appointed prime minister of this area, self- appointed because he was not elected, and he was surrounded by men whom I am told are current or former Russian military. And we asked him about the accountability and the evidence mounting against his militant fighters that he had something to do with taking this plane out of the sky. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: People want answers about what happened up in the sky because those people, as you know, did not deserve to die.

ALEXANDER BORODAI, REBEL LEADER (through translator): I understand. I am trying to get rid of the fog of war and want to make you understand that we were trying to push for these bodies to be collected as fast as possible.

CUOMO: I want to give you one last opportunity to answer this question. The belief of the western community and of Ukraine is that a Russian missile brought down this plane. And there is suspicion that it had something to do with fighters from your region. What do you want to say to people who believe that?

BORODAI: What can I say? I have addressed this topic many times, but I am under the impression that myself and my colleagues are not being heard. Let's look at the real facts. Firstly, we didn't have any motive to target this plane. But for Ukraine, our enemy, the crash of this plane is very beneficial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: That's certainly not a fact. That's his opinion. And there are two other things we know as fact. The idea that he was advised, this self-appointed PM, to leave the bodies where they were, sitting in the heat, is untrue. We asked the investigative body who he says advised him. The OSCE. They said they never did.

The other fact is that when I asked him if it is true that Russians are helping train his fighters, he refused to answer. I asked him a second time. I said, if you are the prime minister and you are in control, why won't you tell me if they are helping you? And he said, again, Carol, I am not going to talk about another sovereign. I only talk about Donetsk, which is where he says he is in control. So, obviously, he's being evasive and there's not even a clever way of doing it.

What the truth is, we're going to have to discover.

COSTELLO: Chris Cuomo reporting live from eastern Ukraine, thanks so much.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: As international pressure grows on Vladimir Putin, Secretary of State John Kerry is adding his voice to calls for a more transparent and thorough investigation into the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: This is a very, very critical moment for Russia to step up, publicly, and join in the effort in order to make sure there is a full-fledged investigation, that the investigators and people who are coming to help from outside, the ICAO, the FBI, the National Transportation Safety Board. We're sending people over. Others are sending people. Experts who have an ability to be able to put these facts together so no one will have doubt, no fingers will be pointed about conspiracies, about ideology and politics governing this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: No one can get to the crash site as of yet because of fighting in eastern Ukraine. That's the big problem. Senator Chris Murphy says that if the plane crash in Ukraine, quote, "doesn't wake up our European allies, it's hard to imagine what will." Murphy, a Democrat from Connecticut, joins me now.

Good morning, sir.

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D), CONNECTICUT: Good morning.

COSTELLO: I don't know if you heard Barbara Starr's report, but she says U.S. intelligence officers are trying to determine if Russian personnel were actually on the scene when that missile was fired. If that's the case, is there any way Putin can wiggle out? MURPHY: Well, I'm not sure that Putin can wiggle out regardless of

whether or not Russia directed this specific missile strike. The fact is, is that we have relative complete confidence that that missile system was provided by the Russians. And if not for the Russian decision to essentially run, arm, equip and administer this rebellion in eastern Ukraine, you would have never had this plane shot down in the first place. So I'm not even sure that it really matters in the final analysis, whether there was a Russian soldier sitting next to the piece of equipment when the missile was fired. This is Russia's fault. And they could allow for access to that crash site today because that separatist group cannot function, cannot exist without Russian support and control.

COSTELLO: EU foreign ministers could meet as soon as tomorrow to finalize a new round of sanctions against Russia, but there are reports leaders are split on how tough those sanctions should be. In your mind, what sanctions need to be put into place?

MURPHY: Well, it's hard for me to imagine why Europe would still be split on this question. If Europe had any doubt whether this conflict could hit them, they now know. This might not be the end of the misery for the region at large due to this conflict. So let's just take the sanctions that the United States imposed last week. We imposed sanctions on the two biggest Russian energy banks. But they aren't as effective as they should be if Europe doesn't join us because if these big Russian energy companies can't get financing from American banks, they can just go to European banks.

So let's start there. Let's make a decision that the United States and Europe are going to cut off financing for Russian energy companies. That would certainly make Putin start to think twice about whether he's going to continue to fund this conflict in eastern Ukraine.

COSTELLO: Some experts say, though, if you put - if you put really, really tough sanctions on Russia, it will back Putin into a corner and he'll act in a more aggressive way. In fact, that will force him to fight back. Maybe diplomacy might be better at this point?

MURPHY: I think Vladimir Putin understands strength. I think there's plenty of room for diplomacy. But right now he is continuing his support of the separatist group in eastern Ukraine because he really doesn't think that he's going to actually see any consequences. We've got to show him that there are consequences. And we're at the right moment to do that.

The Russian economy is weak. They're in recession. There's a huge capital flight of billions of dollars coming out of the country. If you can tighten the noose around their economy, Putin will blink here. I think that that's what history has ultimately shown that you've got to meet Putin's aggression with similar strength and response.

COSTELLO: And he seems to be kind of putting himself in the corner because Putin did come out and finally say something today. He said, quote, and this is just part of what he said, he said, "no one should have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives. Such events should not divide, but unite people." Putin went on to say, "crash investigators should be granted full access to the site," but, of course, as you know, senator, talk is one thing and action is another. What does the United States or other countries need to do to make sure that Putin stands by his word and opens this crash site to investigators and allow those victims to come home?

MURPHY: Well, this is really a question for Europe, right? I mean, they can make this demand that he open the crash site, but then they've got to be proposed to show him that there are consequences if he does not.

The crash site will open to international investigators if Putin decides it. The separatists are run by the Russian military. That's the simple truth. And so if by tomorrow the crash site isn't open to international investigators, then Europe should hand down a crippling round of sanctions. That will be the means of accountability here.

And of course, it's ridiculous for him to say that someone is trying to move a political agenda because of this crash. Our agenda, Europe's agenda is simply to end the bloodshed in eastern Ukraine and allow for the duly elected government out of Kiev to be able to administer a country which by international law is theirs to administer.

COSTELLO: Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, thanks for being with me. I appreciate it.

MURPHY: Thanks, Carol.

COSTELLO: I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Tobacco giant RJ Reynolds is vowing to fight a nearly $24 billion verdict awarded to a Florida window.

Cynthia Robinson says the cigarette maker did not do enough to warn her husband about the dangers of smoking. A Florida jury agreed and sided with her after a four-week long trial.

Robertson's husband died of lung cancer in 1996. He was 36 years old.

After one flight vanished and another one was shot out of the sky, Malaysia Airlines is now offering passengers who might be having second thoughts about flying with them a few options.

CNN business correspondent Zain Asher has more for us from New York.

Good morning.

ZAIN ASHER, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. Yes, so it's typical to see airlines make a certain type of concession after tragedies, like this especially they anticipate that demand to travel a certain route is going to drop. Now in this particular case, Malaysia Airlines is offering a full refund to passengers who cancel, even on non-refundable tickets. They are also waving their change fees as well, so you can alter your ticket without incurring costs. The caveat, though, is that you have until July 24th. That's

technically, by the way, this Thursday, and tickets must be valid for travel between now and December 31st. They are not going to be changing the frequency or the number of flights that travel between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur, the only change at this point passengers will see is that they are -- they're retiring the MH-17 number. That's going to be changed to MH-19. But once again they are offering full refunds to passengers who cancel -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Understandable.

Zain Asher, many thanks.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: As fighting rages between Israel and Hamas, Secretary of State John Kerry is headed to Egypt to try to broker a ceasefire. It won't be easy, as you know. World leaders have tried in vain for decades to bring peace to the Middle East. One of those leaders, former President Bill Clinton.

CNN's Anna Coren spoke with Clinton exclusively about the current conflict and the downing of that airplane in Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Israel launched a ground offensive in Gaza. And you said that Israel is isolating itself from world opinion by failing to clinch a peace deal with the Palestinians.

This is a conflict that you weren't able to resolve when you were in office. What makes you think that it's possible now?

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Well, I think it's possible partly because at some point you get tired of doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result. It's crazy. But I think that -- and I hope that this will lead to everybody doing a little soul-searching and trying to get back to the baseline issue of a peace agreement.

Now with Hamas involved, it raises a different issue, which is that there's no way the Israelis are going to give up the West Bank and agree to a state unless Hamas agrees to give up violence and recognize Israel's right to exist. They won't do it. And that's sort of a nonstarter. And I think it should be. That is I think you can't just have a one-way peace. You have both sides that have to give up what the other side most objects to.

COREN: Do you see that happening any time soon?

CLINTON: I don't see it, but I feel that it could happen. I know that Prime Minister Netanyahu could make a peace that a majority of the Israelis would support. They have said over and over again, if he says that this is good for their security, they would support it. COREN (voice-over): President Clinton is traveling through Southeast

Asia on his way to Australia to speak at the International AIDS Conference. A number of researchers due to attend were killed on board MH-17.

CLINTON: We need to wait to make any definitive statements until we know exactly what happened. But it was sickening thinking about those people being knocked out of the sky. It's pretty tough.

COREN (on camera): Do you believe that the U.S. and international community did enough to try and stop the fighting considering that this advanced military technology appears to have landed in the hands of pro-Russian forces?

CLINTON: The answer to the question you asked is yes, but it doesn't mean I think we did enough. There's another question, though, and that is whether we could have then and we can now give the -- this new Ukrainian government the kind of economic support they need for the course they've laid out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COREN: Carol, it was a broad-ranging conversation because obviously when Bill Clinton speaks the world listens. He's obviously here in Southeast Asia with his charity, the Clinton Foundation visiting projects and one of the other subjects that we spoke about was his wife, Hillary Clinton. Will she run for president in 2016? Unfortunately, I did not get the scoop. However, he did say that she's yet to make up her mind.

However, he does firmly believe that she would -- she would make a great president. So no matter what, he stands by her. But I certainly got a sense that he would like her to run. But for now, I guess it's a bit of a waiting game.

(LAUGHTER)

COSTELLO: You tried though.

Anna Coren, thanks so much.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.