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Ukraine Crash Site; Rebels Hand over Black Boxes; Tunnels Used for Attacks

Aired July 21, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much.

Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you for beginning your week with us here on CNN. You are watching CNN's special live coverage of the downing of MH17 in eastern Ukraine.

The U.S. now believes not only was it a Russian missile that brought that jet down, it is now investigating whether Russian personnel may have actually been the ones to pull the trigger. President Barack Obama speaking just a short time ago from the White House. And make no mistake, he believes Russia is absolutely complicit in the deaths of the 298 people on board that plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Unfortunately, the Russian-back separatists who control the area continue to block the investigation. They have repeatedly prevented international investigators from gaining full access to the wreckage. As investigators approached, they fired their weapons into the air. The separatists are removing evidence from the crash site. All of which begs the question, what exactly are they trying to hide?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Right now, just after 9:00 p.m. at the site where this passenger plane was shot down. And as I come to you right now, we've been watching and so many of the world really has been watching this train carrying wagon after wagon with bodies. It has just been released by the pro-Russian rebels. Disturbingly, this eerie make- shift mobile morgue, if you will, had been held captive by these rebels. Ukraine's president talking about this with CNN just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETRO POROSHENKO, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: We still missing 16 bodies of the innocent victims of the terrorist attack which happened 96 hours ago in Ukrainian sky. But the rest from the 298 victims is already in a refrigerator train, which was supplied by Ukrainian government, but still blocked in the territory controlled by the separatists.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BALDWIN: This train now making its way to the Ukrainian city of Harkive (ph). As for the sprawling crash site, it is a contaminated crime scene with militants reportedly granted almost unfettered access to this massive debris field. In fact, you're looking at pictures which appear to show rebels -- here you go, see the orange flight recorder -- holding the plane's black box. But we are now hearing these flight data recorders will be handed over to Malaysian investigators within the hour.

Joining me now from Donetsk, Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesperson for the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Michael, let's just begin with this train carrying those bodies. What is the status of the train as we speak?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, OSCE SPOKESMAN: Right. Good to be with you, Brooke.

As of about an hour and a half ago, we observed our special monitoring mission, the sealing of the fourth and final car of that train. We were told that more or less between 250 to 300 bodies had been loaded into there, the last of which were just really a few hours ago. And all four wagons were sealed.

We were joined by forensic experts, three of them from the Netherlands. And, you know, the train was basically good to go. But however, we can't say whether it's moved or not until we actually seen it with our own eyes. And obviously it's something we're going to be keeping an eye on in the next few hours.

BALDWIN: You know, Michael, as far as the politics of this train, I had read that the prime minister of the Netherlands said that it was your group, OSCE, who were the ones negotiating with the rebels to move the bodies out of this conflict zone. Is that correct? And if so, can you just tell me how difficult, how challenging that process was?

BOCIURKIW: Well, you know, Brooke, we've been on the ground here for three months. We've got 250 monitors in 10 cities, including Donetsk. So we -- were pretty familiar to them, if I can put it to you that way. We've also had colleagues kidnapped here, which they helped, you know, negotiate the release. So it's an interesting relationship, but one that, you know, actually works in terms of getting things done.

We've had fairly good access between here and the crash site. We get there very quickly. When we're there, they provide us with good perimeter security. And in terms of the train, well, we do talk to them daily. And we have impressed on them how important it is, you know, especially for the folks who have lost loved ones, to get those bodies and those remains moved as quickly as possible.

BALDWIN: You know, do you know, can you tell me definitively, where this train is going, and how those bodies - I just can't help but think about these families, be it burial or final rights, to be read for these loved ones, sons, daughters, husbands, wives. When will they finally get to their final resting place?

BOCIURKIW: Right. Well, you know, there -- it's - if I can put it this way, almost a logistical nightmare and it's compounded by the fact that today, in fact kind of right behind me, there were -- there were - there was heavy fire at the Donetsk train station, which presumably this train would have to go through. And I understand there was some track damage and even fatalities. So that could complicate things slightly. But having said that, I get the sense that they do want to move fairly quickly. They -- I don't think they would have allowed the sealing of the doors if that was the case.

BALDWIN: So what I'm hearing, and it's tough because it's windy where you are on the roof of this building, Michael, as we're speaking. If you could move your microphone a little closer up your jacket as I just ask you this next question, which is, as you point out, the difficulty in -- even in the train tracks and whether or not it will get to that final destination because of the fact that this has happened in the middle of this war zone. You know, I was just reading how I believe it was "The New York Times," a reporter there on the ground, described this recovery effort as a bunch of incoherent, untrained people. Not, of course, your group, but others. I mean coal miners, you know, tasked with canvasing this scene. Have you ever, in your years, seen anything like this?

BOCIURKIW: I've never seen anything like this. But, you know, we -- our first priority was really helping this whole situation, the families in terms of making sure -- in fact, Brooke, the Malaysians made it clear to us, (INAUDIBLE), anything you can do to help us, that bodies are given the dignity that they deserve. So that was, you know, very much at the top of our list to observe and report how things are happening to facility dialogue with the rebel groups.

And then also, of course, there were questions about the black boxes. And one of the things, Brooke, we were able to do over the past four days, which we're frankly happy with, is we facilitated the access of three or four aviation experts from the Ukrainian side. So they've been combing over the fuselage and the debris and trying to find clues as to what happened.

Nothing here happens quickly. It all takes time. But, you know, we feel quite a bit of progress has made given the circumstances and given that this is happening in the middle of a conflict zone.

BALDWIN: I cannot imagine the job that you and your group have undertaken, and the thought of going through evidence. Final question to you, because there, of course, have been allegations of evidence tampering and concealing objects on the scene. It was the Ukrainian president who even said there were reports of bodies and wallets being looted for credit cards. Have you yourself seen any of this with your own eyes?

BOCIURKIW: Of course we get asked that a lot. What we did observe today, and we have reported already to our 57 participating countries, is that we have observed that personal belongings, piles of luggage, have been moved. We were told today by the rebels that they have basically agreed to collect everything and put it in a big container and have it shipped. And we also have observed and reported that parts of the fuselage seem to have been cut in some places. Now, whether that's to help the body recovery or whether that's to look into things, we don't know.

We are not there at nighttime. So we can't observe what happens when we're not there. So it's a very tricky situation. And don't forget, Brooke, that this is an area that spreads over about 10 kilometers. There are about eight different impact sites. It's very, very difficult to monitor. And you know, there are others who are far better place than we are to, you know, look for those (INAUDIBLE) and analyze things.

BALDWIN: You have a lot of work ahead of you, and we wish you the best given the almost unprecedented circumstances. Michael Bociurkiw, thank you so much, OSCE. Thank you.

Just ahead here on CNN, if U.S. investigators find that Russians were indeed at the launch site and even pulled the trigger, what happens then? We'll ask. We'll speak live with a former CIA operative.

Also, we are told the rebels are giving up these black boxes. But here's the but. Did they compromise them ahead of that?

And our other major story we're watching for you here, the escalating crisis between Israel and Hamas. We will take you inside these secret tunnels militants have been use to wage attacks on Israel. And I'll speak live with someone who has been inside. Stay with me. Special coverage, live here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

A significant development here in the downing of Malaysia Air Flight 17. Malaysia's prime minister announcing just a short time ago that pro-Russian rebels, seen right here, you see what we've spotlighted for you, this orange piece of machinery. This is believed to be one of the plane's black boxes from the crash site. And we're learning that they will now hand over these black boxes to a Malaysian team for examination.

So let's bring in CNN intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer, former CIA operative.

And, Bob Baer, is it surprising to you that the rebels are even giving up the black boxes in even, what, four days after the plane was shot down?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Brooke, I mean obviously they should have given it up the first day. It would have looked a lot better. But what the Russians were doing and the Ukrainian dissidents is covering their hand. They thought they could get away with this. you know, blame on the Ukraine. They obviously can't now.

The preponderance of evidence is that the dissidents shot it down and possibly the Russians. What we have to keep in mind is what has been occurring in the Ukraine over the last month, and that is that the Ukrainian rebels have been losing and Putin has decided this couldn't happen. And that's why he rushed weapons across the border with crews that weren't trained in incomplete weapons systems. And this is how we got this tragedy. And I think now Putin realizes that things are going very bad for him and he's got to give up the black box and what evidence is left.

BALDWIN: So Malaysia will ultimately have that black box in their hands. The question is, you know, was it tampered with, will that hurt at all their investigation. It seems to me, talking to the bevy of, you know, aviation experts, that they'll still be able to figure out by putting these pieces of the plane together.

But my next question is the overarching proof, Bob, of the who, who did this? Do you think it's already disappearing from the site, especially at night when OSCE and these other groups aren't there monitoring, or do you think it is already gone?

BAER: Oh, I think it's probably gone. There's probably missile fragments that were embedded in the wreckage. Russian intelligence officers and Ukrainian dissidents probably went through it, pulled the fragments out so that the missile can't be identified. You know, that's an assumption on my part. But I think the main evidence is probably gone. The black box, an expert would have to tell you what you'd get out of that, but not as much as actually identifying the missile.

BALDWIN: So, I'm sure you've seen this and I want your reaction to this because Russia, on the other side, their counter is this. They are claiming -- of course we know Putin has been blaming, you know, Kiev for what happened in the eastern part of the country and the hostilities there, but Russia is also countering, claiming that this - that it was a Ukraine war plane that flew close to this Boeing 777 right before it crashed. Your reaction to that.

BAER: Oh, Brooke, I think that's nonsense. If there had been a plane in the vicinity of that one and fired a missile, it would have been picked up by all sorts of radar, adjoining countries. It would have been seen. There would have been evidence of this. And I think that's just -- it's just a lie fabricated by whole cloth (ph). And, you know, even the plane would have called it in if they had seen this thing.

No, I just don't buy that. I think this administration has presented the best evidence, and I think it's very good. Most of it is from overhead, taking pictures of these SA-11s coming across the border, firing the missile and then returning. It's amazing how good this intelligence is. And I don't see the Obama administration making this case unless the intelligence was very good.

BALDWIN: Final question, just quickly. What's the biggest piece of the puzzle that's missing for you in all of this?

BAER: Well, I think is the fact if the Russian soldiers crossed the border in another invasion like the Crimea and have been helping the Ukrainian rebels. I think Putin is in a lot of trouble. I think sanctions, more sanctions are on the way. And he's going to have to come to terms with the truth, sooner rather than later.

BALDWIN: Bob Baer, as always, thank you.

And if all signs point to Russia, to his point, having some responsibility, maybe all of for this attack on Malaysia Air Flight 17, the big question for the White House and Congress is what to do about it. Is it time to stand up to Russia's president once and for all? Would additional sanctions even work?

And then a network of tunnels burrowed under the border. A devious system that militants can use to carry out attacks against Israel. CNN went down into the earth to see how they work and why they're such a threat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We are following breaking developments this hour from the Middle East here as well. Israel's defense forces say seven Israeli soldiers have been killed today inside and along the border with Gaza. So 25 IDF soldiers and two Israeli citizens have died since this Israeli offensive began. On the other side, more than 500 Palestinians, many of them civilians, have been killed. In Washington, President Obama says he has instructed Secretary of State John Kerry, who by the way is in Egypt, to push for an end to all this fighting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And that is why it now has to be our focus and the focus of the international community to bring about a ceasefire that ends the fighting and that can stop the deaths of innocent civilians, both in Gaza and in Israel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Israel's focus has turned to locating and destroying this extensive network of underground tunnels in Gaza, and specifically leading from Egypt into Gaza. The Israeli military has released this video that you're looking at here. It shows what appears to be these gunmen emerging from a tunnel, opening fire on Israeli troops. Now a spokesperson for Israel's prime minister told Wolf Blitzer that the tunnels are being used to launch assaults.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK REGEV, ISRAELI GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: It has to be understood, just this morning, there were two squads of Hamas terrorists who came through tunnels. They entered Israel in the south. They tried to attack two different (INAUDIBLE), where civilians, you know, farmers are just trying to conduct their daily lives. It shows who Hamas is. Hamas is an extremist, deadly terrorist organization. And the worst of all is the people of Gaza are suffering because of Hamas. They didn't want this war, Wolf.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: CNN's Paula Hancocks joins me now from New York.

And, Paula, we wanted to talk to you. We've seen this video of you inside these tunnels from just a couple of years ago, these multipurpose tunnels. Tell me about them. What did you see?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, there are a couple of different tunnels. Basically there are those from Gaza into Israel, which are being used by Hamas militants to try and launch attacks. And then you have the other tunnels, which I went into, on a number of occasions which go from Gaza into Egypt. These are the smuggling tunnels which basically are used to bring in food, to bring in gas, livestock, anything else that the Gazans need. And also, according to Israel, are used to resupply Hamas. That is how they get their weapons into Gaza within this blockade.

Now, certainly it was interesting seeing these tunnels. They very basic. This ground is clay and sand. It is - it is not particularly conducive to these tunnels. There are a number of collapses. We've seen over the years Israel bombing them quite significantly. But they do seem to keep emerging. We've also seen in recent months Egypt trying to cut back on these tunnels. But Hamas really does have a number of years of experience in building these tunnels.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Israel, presumably, wanting to destroy these tunnels, to choke off this point in which Hamas is using these tunnels to smug, as you point out, to get - to get the weaponry in. Maybe perhaps originally coming from say Iran. But how would, if at all, Hamas find a way to resupply itself with the tunnels gone?

HANCOCKS: Well, that's the question. And it would be extremely tricky for them. There is a land and sea and air blockade on Gaza by - not just by Israel but by Egypt as well now that both sides say that they have eased restrictions over recent years. But certainly arms are not allowed to be brought into Hamas, into Gaza. And that is their lifeline when it comes to arms.

We see within Gaza itself - I went along to a rocket factory in a private house a few years ago which was building the shorter-range missiles. But the long-range rockets, they have to get from outside. And Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu say that they get those from Iran. And that is what comes through the tunnels, according to Israel. So certainly from the Israeli point of view, if they close those tunnels, if they disable those tunnels, then that certainly helps their cause.

But they've been bombing these tunnels between Gaza and Egypt for years and still they keep popping up. They're very, very basic, very dirty, but they are very quick to create. So we know that those people who build them, sometimes they are even children who are building them and trying to get into these small spaces. We understand, when we were down there, they were paid $100 a meter to be able to create these tunnels. But, of course, they're easy to dig.

BALDWIN: Glad you mentioned that. I heard you mention that before. Children, small children, sent in there to work on these. Paula Hancocks, thank you so much for showing us the video from the last few years and these tunnels. President George W. Bush once said he looked in Russian President

Vladimir Putin's eyes and saw his soul. Famously uttered those words at the Crawford ranch. Well, Vice President Joe Biden did the same thing, sort of. He saw something chilling and very different as far as Vladimir Putin's soul is concerned. Ahead, we will talk to Congressman Peter King about that and whether the airlines shootdown is a game- changer for relations with Russia.

And Ukraine's president has ripped apart the rebels over their antics at the crash site and their alleged savaging. His gave his very first interview since the disaster to use here at CNN.

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