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U.N. Security Council Demands International Access To Site; Doctor Mourns Mentor Lost On Flight 17; Oren: Media Play Role In Hamas Strategy

Aired July 21, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Want to take you quickly inside the U.N. Security Council meeting right now. You are about to listen to ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power.

SAMANTHA POWER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We extend our deepest condolences to those countries. The families of victims they represent and all of the people who lost loved ones on that plane. Your presence here today, along with the dozens of other countries whose representatives will speak, gives even greater urgency to our calls for the dignified return of the victims and our pursuit of truth and justice.

As we reflect on the immeasurable loss suffered by these families around the world, we are not only outraged at the attack itself, we are horrified and enraged by what has happened since. By the clear intention of some to obstruct an investigation into how the passenger and crew died. Even after adopting this resolution, it is worth asking, if there really is consensus that this crime merits an immediate and impartial investigation, why did we still feel the need to meet today in order to demand one?

We came together, because not everyone has been supporting a real investigation into this crime. If they were, international experts would have had unimpeded access to the crime scene and all of the wreckage would have been left where it had fallen. That has not happened. Instead, armed thugs have walked around the site with little regard for where they step.

We have literally heard the sound of debris, all evidence that needs to be carefully preserved, crunching beneath their feet. We have seen separatists moving around human remains and carting away evidence from the site. All around the world this weekend, people of all cultures and faiths had similar reactions to seeing the footage of the separatists damaging the site.

Stop! Those are people! Those are people's lives! We all said. The passengers aboard Malaysian Airline Flight 17 had nothing to do with the conflict in Eastern Ukraine. They were families heading on vacation, students returning home from abroad. Researchers trying to eradicate a deadly disease. Those who were killed deserved to be treated with dignity and their families are crying out as we have heard, for closure. We condemn the actions of the separatists who control the site. Indeed, almost everyone has condemned this grotesque behavior. But there is one party from which we have heard too little condemnation, and that is Russia. Russia has been outspoken on other matters. Russian officials have publicly insinuated that Ukraine was behind the crash.

On Friday, Russia blamed Ukrainian air traffic controllers for this attack, rather than condemning the criminals who shot down the plane. Since then, Russia has begun to blame Ukraine for the attack itself, though the missile came from separatist territory that Russia knows full well Ukraine has not yet reclaimed.

But if Russia genuinely believed that Ukraine was involved in the shoot down of flight 17, surely President Putin would have told the separatists, many of whose leaders are from Russia, to guard the evidence at all costs, to maintain a forensically pure, hermetically sealed, crime scene.

We welcome Russia's support for today's resolution, but no resolution would have been necessary, had Russia used its leverage with the separatists on Thursday, getting them to lay down their arms and leave the site to international experts or on Friday, or on Saturday, or even yesterday.

It turns out that only this morning, coincidentally, the very morning the Security Council was meeting to discuss the investigation, did President Putin finally issue a public call to ensure the security of international experts. However, and this is critically important, President Putin still did not direct his call to the separatists who have threatened those experts and over whom he has enormous influence.

President Poroshenko, by contrast, has consistently done everything within his power, since the crash, to allow capable investigators full and unfettered access to the crime scene. He has been willing to involve ICAO, the Netherlands and other international players hailing their independence.

Russia's muteness over the dark days between Thursday and today sent a message to the illegal arm groups it supports, we have your backs. This is the message they have sent by providing heavy weapons, never publicly calling on them to lay down weapons, and by massing thousands of troops at the Ukrainian border.

Today we have taken a step toward combatting impunity. The resolution passed provides clear directions to safeguard and uncover the facts, however inconvenient those facts may prove to be. We have adopted a resolution today, but we are not naive. If Russia is not part of the solution, it will continue to be part of the problem.

For the past six months, Russia has seized Ukrainian territory and ignored the repeated requests of the international community to deescalate. All in an effort to preserve influence in Ukraine, a country that has long made clear its desire to maintain constructive ties with Moscow. Russia must recognize that no move on the geopolitical chess board, no zero sum game with the west, can offset the pain being felt by the passengers' families worldwide or the pain that Ukrainians are experiencing daily as a result of this needless conflict. As we meet, we are seeing initial signs of the separatists allowing greater access to the crash site.

Today, three Dutch investigators have accessed the site. The separatists are attempting to hold this up as proof of their openness and good faith. But let's be clear, this is an extremely complex and time-sensitive crime scene. In that context, a spigot approach, letting in a few investigators here, a few more there, simply will not cut it.

Access must be immediate and it must be full. Period. A spigot or staged managed approach is a form of obstruction. Russia can help change this. Russia can unequivocally condemn the separatists' inhuman treatment of the bodies at the site and use its influence to ensure they stop tampering with evidence.

Russia can demand a ceasefire in the area around the crash site, as Ukraine has done. Russia can press the illegal groups to sit down with President Poroshenko, who has proposed a serious and reasonable peace plan, and instead of continuing to provide weapons to the separatists, Russia could take back all of the surface-to-air missiles, tanks and other heavy weaponry that it has delivered to them.

These would not only be important steps toward achieving accountability, and achieving justice for the victims, they would constitute a long overdue sign that Russia is willing to take steps to end this deadly crisis. Thank you.

BALDWIN: All right, so you're looking at live pictures from the United Nations and that was just our U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., Samantha Power, and the thrust of what she was just saying and just before she spoke, there was this unanimous resolution reached 15-0, basically saying, you know, from the U.N. Security Council to the international community, we are demanding unfettered access to this crash scene in Eastern Ukraine, which has been tough to get because of the pro-Russian rebels that really control this part of the world.

One man who knows Ukraine really well, and Russia, is our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, who is also sitting in for Jake Tapper today. And I thought she made a point that someone else made a point on my show, as well, and that is -- it was Christiane Amanpour.

Because it's what you say that makes news, Jim Sciutto, but it's also what you don't say, and her point about how Vladimir Putin and how really he has said so little. And he has the power to say to these separatists, stop, and he hasn't.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And even when he has said things, and this is something you'll hear from U.S. officials, that in recent weeks, the words coming out of Moscow have been somewhat more conciliatory than they were in the past. But the actions certainly did not change on the ground.

And one of those actions, of course, extremely telling here that those missile systems which U.S. officials believe brought down this jet, were transferred from Russian territory to these pro-Russian rebels just in the days before this plane was taken down.

So even as President Putin was saying a few nicer things in the last couple weeks, you know, it didn't change, and we're seeing the results of that in that wreckage on the ground in Eastern Ukraine.

BALDWIN: What about the fact that we know that obviously there's a possibility that Russians or Russian official might have been at the site when the trigger, so to speak, was pulled on this, you know, missile -- the surface-to-air missile system? And I'm curious since you know this part of the world so well, whether there was a Russian president, called the shot, there could have been a Russian who pulled the trigger, how would that affect future U.S.-Russian policy?

SCIUTTO: Well, on the first question, this is exactly what U.S. intelligence is looking at right now. Was there a Russian presence at the moment that the missile was fired? Were they there physically, did they even pull the trigger? But at a minimum, if that's not the case, Secretary Kerry was on the record yesterday saying that the U.S. believes that Russia trained -- two things. One, gave them the missile systems and two, it set up a training camp in Eastern Ukraine to train them to fire these missiles.

So even if they weren't physically present when the missiles went off, which is something they're still checking out, but don't have a conclusive answer on, there is culpability there, because they gave them the weapons and taught them how to use them.

BALDWIN: OK. Let me just play some sound. I talked to someone on the ground during the show, a spokesperson for the OSCE, the organization of security and cooperation in Europe. And I asked him if he had witnessed any rebels tampering with evidence at the crash site. This was his response.

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MICHAEL BOCIURKAV, OSCE SPOKESMAN: We have observed that personal belongings, piles of luggage, have been moved. We were told today by the rebels they have basically agreed to collect everything and put it in a big container and have it shipped. And we also have observed and reported that parts of fuselage seem to have been cut in some places.

Whether that's to help the body recovery or whether that's to look into things, we don't know. And one of the things, Brooke, we were able to do over the past four days, which we're frankly happy with, is we facilitated the access of three or four aviation experts from the Ukrainian side.

So they have been combing over the fuselage and the debris, and trying to find clues as to what happened. Nothing here happens quickly. It all takes time. But, you know, we feel quite a bit of progress has been made, given the circumstances and given that this is happening in the middle of a conflict zone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: You know, he just described it, too, Jim Sciutto, as nightmarish. Let's me just bring you in and finally end with this. I was talking to Congressman Peter King earlier in the show, and I asked him, OK, with all these sanctions, you know, on Russia that they seem to not bow to whatsoever, who would Putin listen to?

He said, Brooke, it needs to be President Obama leading the charge. He mentioned prime minister -- British Prime Minister David Cameron. My question is what about Angela Merkel? Isn't she key here? Will she join this chorus of condemnation?

SCIUTTO: That's the key question because you need her on board. One, Germany's most powerful country in Europe, arguably. Two, it's got some of the closest business ties and political and diplomatic ties with Russia. You need Germany on board for any measures that are taken by the U.S. and Europe to be credible from the Russian point of view.

Now, there is some progress going forward. You mentioned the British Prime Minister Cameron. He wrote a very strongly worded op-ed this weekend saying now may be the time, in his words, for a fundamental change in the way Europe deals with Russia. And you know, this is something that would have great costs for the British economy.

You travel London, half of London is owned by Russia. They profit from Russian investment in the London financial markets. You also heard the Dutch prime minister say that Holland is ready for economic sanctions, and Russia is Holland's number three trading partner.

You need that kind of coalescing to make whatever step is taken next to be truly painful for Russia. But that's a real test. Can the U.S. engineer that? Can Europe reach a consensus, and is Europe willing to pay its own price to punish Russia for this?

BALDWIN: Jim Sciutto, I look forward to watching you sitting in for Jake Tapper on "THE LEAD" at the top of the hour. Thank you, sir, so much. I appreciate it.

Coming up next, remembering the innocent men, women, children, who died in this tragedy on MH17. Two of them were giants, incredibly influential on the world of HIV/AIDS research, and on their way to this conference in Australia. Our next guest knew both of them, calls them mentors and friends, says they dedicated their lives to helping others, saving other lives. She'll explain their impact on the world and to her, next.

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BALDWIN: Just reading all these different articles about Flight 17. I read this from a consultant saying this, quote, "The cure for AIDS may have been on that plane. We just don't know." That is because dozens of top HIV/AIDS scientists were killed when the plane was shot down. They were headed to this international conference in Australia.

A vigil was held for them there instead. Among them were Joep Lange and his partner Jacqueline Vantongeren. The two are mourned by a Dallas reporter and Dr. Seema Yasmin. She lists the achievements in Sunday's "Dallas Morning News," but she spends so much more time on his kindness and drive to help those too often forgotten in the epidemic, the poor.

Seema joins me. Seema, welcome and I'm sorry for your loss. I appreciate you coming on so we can tell their stories and talk about their importance. Just reading your piece in the "Dallas Morning News," you say every day, we will be reminded of what a loss this is. Can you just talk to me about Joep specifically and what you mean by that?

DR. SEEMA YASMIN, STAFF WRITER, "DALLAS MORNING NEWS": Sure, it's a huge personal tragedy for myself and my family. He was a very special man, a kind humanitarian and doctor that he took the time to mentor me as a young woman. Actually, had an impact on my life and the decisions that I made. I went to medical school on Joep's advice.

It's a huge loss on a global scale because is he saved millions and millions of lives. He and Jacqueline worked really hard together. He pioneered the use of HIV treatments so women with HIV could give birth to healthy children who didn't have the virus.

BALDWIN: To that point, you write he was a doer. At a time when scientific community said we couldn't make HIV treatments available to people in the developing world, be he said it could be done and it should be done. You tell this quick story when you asked him why he worked so much, what was his response to you?

YASMIN: He was always jet setting. I said to Joep, why do you work so much. He said do you know how much it costs to buy shoes for five girls? That's how much of a doting father he was. I also recalled in the article on Sunday that he often had these big international conference calls. There would be important people from all over the world on the phone.

That Joep would be there on speakerphone in his Dutch kitchen talking about how to save lives, how to prevent the transmission of HIV and at the same time, he would be cooking dinner for his children. So he was just a very compassionate person and somebody that I miss dearly.

BALDWIN: A family man, a friend, and an incredible researcher just finally when I read the article in the "Washington Post" that said the cure for AIDS could have been on that plane. Help us understand what kind of loss this is for AIDS research, for future research?

YASMIN: It's an absolutely devastating loss to all of us in the HIV/AIDS world and also just the world of medical research. Joep and Jacqueline were true humanitarians and worked so hard together. He was a brilliant man and also very, very kind. I remember that he was inpatient. He would say to people, you're doing great work but come on, finish, what are we going to do next? What more can we do to save people. He could not have done all he did without Jacqueline by his side.

BALDWIN: Seema Yasmin, thank you so much for joining me and sharing their stories. You can read her piece "Dallas Morning News." Thank you. Back in 90 seconds.

YASMIN: Thank you.

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BALDWIN: The former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. Michael Orin has written an opinion column for cnn.com. He writes the Hamas military strategy includes a sophisticated media campaign. In his words, let me read this for you, "Hamas can count on one of the world's most powerful weapons, the international media."

Michael is also a CNN Middle East analyst and joins me live from Tel Aviv. Mr. Ambassador, welcome back. Let me begin with the crux of your piece. You say Hamas has this calculated media strategy to use international media to show images of civilians suffering, but isn't that part of the story?

MICHAEL OREN, CNN MIDDLE EAST ANALYST: Well, good to be with you, Brooke. Over the last almost now two weeks that the operation has been conducted, between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza strip, audiences throughout the world have watched televisions and seen hundreds of hours of air time devoted to Palestinian casualties.

Now, Palestinian casualties of both sides, Palestinians, Israelis are a tragedy. But the focus on the Palestinian casualties without context serves a Hamas media strategy. And that strategy is to depict Israel as the discriminate killer as callous and ultimately to arouse public opinion throughout the world, put pressure on governments to go to the U.N. and get Israel condemned for war crimes.

So Israel can't defend itself while Hamas fires rockets at Israel. It's a strategy that Hamas has used again and again and again. If you go back and look at those hundreds of hours, you'd have to look very, very carefully, Brooke, to see if they've ever mentioned that Israel has taken extraordinary efforts to get Palestinian civilians to leave the combat areas warning them with telephone calls and text messages.

See if those reports have mentioned that hundreds and hundreds of rockets have been fired out of those neighborhoods, that tunnels have been dug under those neighborhoods. Without that context, those reports are serving the Hamas media strategy designed to delegitimize Israel.

BALDWIN: We showed those tunnels that you're talking about this past hour. You write in your piece about the advanced Israeli technology to minimize civilian deaths, the facts are that the Israeli shelling damaged a hospital last night. This is according to Gaza's health ministry. Five people were killed there.

You've seen the stories last week about the four young Palestinian boys killed on a beach from an air strike. Does that mean that Hamas was launching rockets from the hospital or the beach? OREN: Hamas regularly launches rockets and keeps rockets not just in hospitals and mosques but also in schools.

BALDWIN: But in this case specifically, Mr. Ambassador.

OREN: And under a school this week. I don't know the specific incident, but Hamas uses neighborhoods. It uses schools. It uses hospitals. It uses children to dig those tunnels. How do you think the tunnels were done? By hundreds of children basically child slave labor.

And if these details are not reported, if the context is not put in there, then all the reports are in fact serving Hamas' media strategy. Hamas knows it can't destroy Israel with its rockets or tunnels, but it can create a legal and international situation where Israel can no longer legitimately defend itself.

It does that by arousing public opinion using an international media, which is focusing for good journalistic reasons on civilian sufferings. It does make good headlines, but without putting the context in, can without showing how Hamas uses human shields, fires from behind them, Hamas has received hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid.

None of that aid goes to bid a single bomb shelter or build a single warning system Israel has spent hundreds of millions of dollars on its defense system. So there's always going to be a gap between civilian casualties on the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side. Hamas is banking on that.

BALDWIN: I should point out.

OREN: The images that's going to arouse public opinion.

BALDWIN: I should point out those are the examples I gave officials on the Israeli side came on air and said they're investigating both at the beach and the hospital. Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for joining me from Tel Aviv. For the context, you can read his opinion piece, go to cnn.com.