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Shootdown Victims Now Out Of Rebel Hands; Apparent Shrapnel Holes In Wreckage; Kerry In Egypt To Push For Cease Fire; Should Planes Have Anti-Missile Defenses?

Aired July 22, 2014 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN MCLAUGHLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How are you going to remember them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels like they are already one with me now. The bond I have with them is just they are my best friends, they are my -- they are my brothers, and I feel like they are going to watch over me forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLAUGHLIN: There are so many grieving families here in the Netherlands. Today, we heard from the prime minister. He said that tomorrow the bodies are expected to be brought back here to the Netherlands to begin the identification process. So important to these families to be able to bury their loved ones with dignity and respect -- Carol.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Erin McLaughlin reporting. The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts now.

Good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me. We begin with the latest developments in the shoot down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. Just a short time ago, CNN's Barbara Starr obtained U.S. government analysis of the doomed flights trajectory. The straight yellow line you see shows a normal flight route. The green line shows the seconds of free fall after the plane was struck by a missile.

Russian President Vladimir Putin vowed that he will use his influence with the rebels to push for a full investigation. Putin is facing global anger over his suspected arming and training of those rebels who likely brought down the airliner.

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VITALY CHURKIN, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.: According to them, the people were saying that they shut down. If they shut it down, there was confusion. If there was confusion, it was not an act of terrorism.

REP. ELIOT ENGEL (R), NEW YORK: It probably was accidental, but it's certainly an act of terror, the net result of is people are going to be afraid to fly. I think there was Russian complicity in it, but the question is what do we do about it? (END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Also overnight, grieving families now one step closer to claiming the remains of their loved ones. Refrigerated train cars carrying the 282 recovered bodies have left rebel territory and are at a closed military area in Ukraine.

Also this morning, rebels surrendered the flight recorders known as the black boxes. Malaysian officials say they will maintain custody of what maybe crucial evidence until an international team of investigators is formed. Let's get the latest now from the crash site. Senior international correspondent, Ivan Watson is there near Ukraine's south eastern border with Russia. Hi, Ivan.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, Carol. That's right. We've had progress for the families with that train carrying its precious cargo of more than 200 victims of the doomed Flight MH-17 that has arrived. It made a journey, a difficult journey from rebel controlled territory, the city of Donetsk where I am, controlled by separatists about an hour drives away from the crash site.

It had to cross active front lines into Ukrainian-government controlled territory to the city of Kharkiv where a team led by Dutch investigators are then in charge of moving the victims to Amsterdam, the point of origin of Flight MH-17. This taking place, you know, more than four days after the plane went down.

Also the handover of those black boxes, those flight recorders finally surrendered at a predawn ceremony by the self-declared prime minister of this separatist region to a Malaysian delegation in an elaborate signing ceremony. It took more than four days to really get the separatists to admit that they were actually in possession of these black boxes.

And you are also seeing footage of a prayer ceremony, a memorial hailed by orthodox Christians near the scene of the crash site in honor of these 298 civilians, more than 80 children, who died in that wheat field last Thursday -- Carol.

COSTELLO: It's kind of strange that there was a ceremony to hand over these black boxes. What was the reason behind that?

WATSON: Well, clearly this was a negotiated deal of some sort. The Malaysian prime minister pointed out, you know, he was angry. He was filled with grief, but he felt that he had to operate more quietly to get this solution. This was a moment for the self-declared prime minister of this separatist region, Alexander Borodai, to then give a speech to the media, denying any responsibility for shooting down Flight MH17.

And to pledge support for an international investigation there so arguably a chance for him to speak in front of the media, to make his own case at a time when the U.S. government, when the Australian government, certainly the Ukrainian government, have all basically blamed the rebels, accused them of shooting down this airliner last Thursday -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Ivan Watson, reporting live from us from Ukraine this morning. Also new, Ukraine's most blunt accusation yet against Russia. CNN's Kyung Lah spoke to Ukraine's intelligence chief who raised eyebrows with this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It wasn't a drunk rebel sitting on top of the missile.

VITALIY NAYDA, DIRECTOR, UKRAINE COUNTERTERRORISM DEPARTMENT: No.

LAH: You believe that was a Russian.

NAYDA: Absolutely.

LAH: A Russian trained?

NAYDA: A Russian trained, well-equipped, well-educated officer.

LAH: Who pushed that button?

NAYDA: Who pushed the button --

LAH: And do you think at --

NAYDA: -- deliberately.

LAH: -- deliberately?

NAYDA: Exactly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Wow. Deliberately. CNN's Kyung Lah is in Kiev. She joins us with more of that interview. What else did he say?

LAH: Well, it's a very bold accusation because what he's saying is it's not pro-Russian separatists, but it is a Russian officer himself who Ukrainian intelligence is suggesting is the one who pressed that button launching the missile. What he also adds is that intelligence, some unreleased audio recordings of these separatists talking that it suggests that they should have known what they were launching that missile and what the direct hit would be. Here's what he says.

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LAH: Those conversations say what, again?

NAYDA: That the plane is coming and they have to be ready.

LAH: Did they know what the plane was?

NAYDA: The answer to this question will be given during the investigation, but they knew that the plane is coming. What kind of plane? Probably they knew, probably they don't. Because if they possess this kind of military equipment like BUK M1 automatic missile launcher, they know the plane is not a military plane. It's a big target with constant speed and constant direction, they should analyze and they should know it was a civilian plane.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAH: The Ukrainian spy chief is saying this is not an empty accusation. That he actually has intelligence. Russia for its part has denied outright blanket statement saying that it's not directly involved in all of this. As far as a pro-Russian rebels, Carol, they yesterday did say that this is an information war that they are not involved -- Carol.

COSTELLO: CNN's Kyung Lah reporting live, thanks so much.

By all accounts, the SA-11 missile system is a cruel weapon. It's designed to kill, whether it actually hits its target or not. I'm sorry to say the people on Flight 17 were aware something terrible had happened.

With me now, Bob Baer, a CNN security and intelligence analyst and a former CIA operative, and David Soucie, CNN aviation analyst and author of "Why Planes Crash." Welcome, gentlemen. David, I want to show you a picture. This is part of the plane. You can see holes in this piece of the fuselage. It looks like shrapnel hit the fuselage. What does this tell you?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, to me what it looks like is indicative of this type of shrapnel and not what is more importantly is what it's not. In Sioux City, when the uncontained engine failure occurred, those tears that were in the skin for that engine created very sharp and clear cuts in the skin. They went right through it.

Those are made out of titanium. The shrapnel from this is made out of aluminum alloys and it's a more soft material and greater size, and creates a more impacted. There's more folded in metal on the impact zone. This would indicate to me that it did come from a missile.

COSTELLO: And Bob, explain to people how this missile system works. The missile itself doesn't actually hit the plane. The missile detonates 300 feet from the target and it sends out this cloud of shrapnel. Why does it work that way?

BOB BAER, CNN SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, Carol, it's a proximity fuse and what happens is the shrapnel disables all mechanisms on the airplane, the guidance system, the cockpit, and the rest of it. It makes sure there's a complete total kill of an airplane. And also you don't have to be that accurate. You can get in front of the airplane and that's enough to take it down. These weapon systems are very efficient, very sophisticated and a Boeing 777, there's no doubt it was going to bring it down.

COSTELLO: So David, if the shrapnel penetrated the front of the plane, peppering it with holes, what would happen next? SOUCIE: Well, it actually appears to me that it peppered more centrally in the tail of the aircraft, tearing off the tail and thereby losing control of the aircraft physically, as opposed to a loss of hydraulic or something like that. If it had lost hydraulics, any of these critical systems, the aircraft would have flown longer than it did. But in this case, it clearly was a physical change of the air dynamics of the exterior of the aircraft, which is what caused it to fall so abruptly.

COSTELLO: So David, would the people on board be aware of what was happening?

SOUCIE: You know, I hate to speculate one way or the other, but from the evidence I see now, it appears that they would have been, yes.

COSTELLO: It's just too horrible to imagine.

SOUCIE: It really is.

COSTELLO: So, Bob, you know, it just occurs to me, it's amazing in a horrible way how many creative ways we can kill one another, right? We seem to come up with a different horrible weapon every day. That said, should this kind of weapon ever been in the hands of untrained rebels?

BAER: Well, I think, Carol, the question now is whether the Russians had a direct hand in this. I haven't seen conclusive intelligence, but if in fact they were on the ground operating that system, knowing its capabilities that it could bring down a civilian airliner, Russia is culpable and this is less of an accident and more of an intentional attack on a civilian airliner.

And we won't know that until the Russians start cooperating and so farther not as we've seen. We don't know the name of this crew. We don't know exactly what happened to the missile. Although the administration said it went back across the border in Russia. I doubt that the Russians would --

COSTELLO: You heard what the Ukrainian intelligence officer told Kyung Lah, he said that the people on the ground manning this missile system had to know it was a passenger plane because it flew at a constant rate of speed and a constant altitude. How could they not know it was a civilian aircraft?

BAER: Well, I'm not exactly an expert on that, but one would think they would have recognized this as a flight plan. Their radar would have picked up other airplanes crossing that corridor, so that's a very, very good question, which we don't have the answer to. The Russians have to come clean on this and I see no way around it. The black box is not going to tell us what the intentions of that crew were.

COSTELLO: Bob Baer and David Soucie, thanks so much.

Still to come to the NEWSROOM, Hamas still refusing to consider a cease-fire proposal as the death toll rises in the Middle East. Among the dead, children. We'll take you live to Gaza next.

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COSTELLO: The death toll continues to rise in Gaza with no signs of letting up. More than 600 Palestinians have been killed, nearly 4,000 wounded including children. A hospital in Gaza City was hit by Israeli rockets killing five people. Israel claims missiles were being stored by Hamas in an area near that hospital. Twenty seven Israeli soldiers and two civilians have died in the fighting and this morning, the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry repeated his call for Hamas to accept a cease-fire deal. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: The loss of lives and the humanitarian impact is really heart breaking, and we're joining our international partners in reiterating our call for an immediate end to the fighting and the return to the cease-fire that was reached in 2012.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Karl Penhaul is following the story from Gaza. Good morning, Karl.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. There is certainly no end to the fighting here on the ground just overnight and through the first part of this morning, according to Palestinian Health Ministry close to 50 more people have been killed. As you know throughout this conflict, the United Nations estimates that between 70 and 80 percent of the casualties have been civilian.

Now just as we're coming to air over my shoulder, that is Eastern Gaza, right out toward the border between Eastern Gaza and Israel, a series of massive explosions have been going on there. No word yet as to what they may be. Whether they are air strikes. Whether this may be another kind of commando style operation that militants are launching.

Or whether possibly this is Israel trying to carry out its stated objective of destroying this network of tunnels that Hamas commandos have been using to burrow into Israel and take on the Israeli Armed Forces on home turf. But certainly a lot of action on the battlefield as well as on the diplomatic front this morning. Let's take a look at what's been going on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PENHAUL (voice-over): Overnight, more bloodshed on both sides of the Israel-Gaza border. Close to 600 Palestinians killed, some of those victims targeted last night in raids like this one in Gaza City. On the other side, at least 27 Israeli soldiers now dead. Despite the rising death toll, Israel is pushing ahead with "Operation Protective Edge."

CNN captured this video of Israeli forces battling Hamas militants inside Israel. The Hamas fighters had entered Israel through an underground tunnel on Monday. Night vision video released by the Israeli military shows the militants reportedly sneaking in near a kibbutz. Israel then responds with a targeted air strike.

Ten Hamas fighters killed according to Israel. This morning, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is in Cairo with U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon to push the cease-fire effort forward. The U.S. also extending $47 million in humanitarian aid to Gaza. As the warfare between Gaza and Israel rages on, Lebanon's militant group has pledged their support from Israel's border. A suggestion perhaps Israel may have to worry about a second front.

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PENHAUL: Now, of course, those international diplomatic efforts going on right now to try and broker some kind of cease-fire, but you really have to question whether this would be the right time for the warring sides to call a truce. The Israeli military on the one hand may not have achieved its full objectives trying to shut down those militant tunnels and destroy their rocket launchers.

And on the other hand, Hamas and the other armed factions here in Gaza seemed to be on a rolling Guerrilla warfare terms. They are continuing to fight against the Israelis and they say that there can be no return to the status quo. They simply cannot go back to living on the way that they did before. That may be a sign that they are all preparing to continue to fight -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Karl Penhaul reporting live for us this morning. Thank you. Still to come to the NEWSROOM, sophisticated weapons in the wrong hands. It's what took down Flight 17 so how vulnerable are commercial flights and how can they be defended. Brian Todd is following that angle. Good morning, Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. A central question being asked in the wake of this tragedy, is it time to equip commercial planes with countermeasures to fend off missile attacks. I'll have that story after the break.

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COSTELLO: Whoever is responsible, whatever the reason, the fact remains 298 innocent souls on Flight 17 were murdered, blown out of the sky. This is an unconscionable act now leading some to call for anti-missile systems to be placed open commercial airliners. Brian Todd live in Washington with more. Good morning.

TODD: Good morning, Carol. You know, we are starting to see more clamoring for this, but it may not be too realistic to implement the system right now. This is the kind of technology that only a few large passenger planes have today including Air Force One. But important questions are now being raised, are more passengers now vulnerable to this new threat and can they be protected?

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TODD (voice-over): As crews sift through the wreckage of Malaysia Air Flight 17, concerns are growing that more commercial airliners could be vulnerable to attacks like this.

CAITLIN LEE, WEAPONS EXPERT: Of course, after this attack there's going to be increasing pressure to put some kind of defense system on commercial airliners.

TODD: U.S. Senator Mark Kirk is worried about the safety of American passengers, calling on the FAA, quote, "to install countermeasures on commercial planes." Those systems could have prevented this. A November 2003 attack on a DHL cargo plane over Baghdad. It managed to land safely.

Israel already has countermeasures on its LL planes developed after terrorists launched a shoulder-fired missile and barely missed an Israeli passenger jet taking off from Mombasa, Kenya in 2002. On the Israeli planes, a laser fired from a turret moves toward a missile and deflects it away, but those are designed to counter only simpler shoulder-fired missiles.

To fend off more sophisticated radar-guided missiles like the one apparently fired at the Malaysia Airlines jet, one possible countermeasure according to experts in various reports could be fired from the commercial plane in a canister. That canister would burst open and send out what's called chaf, metal confetti.

LEE: Reflective aluminium particles that create a cloud that's much larger than the aircraft and this cloud distracts the missile because the radar cross-section of the cloud is much bigger than that of the aircraft and so the missile is thrown off targets.

TODD: But experts say it's only a few seconds before the missile could lock back on to the aircraft and installing and maintaining these systems would be difficult. They could easily pull planes off the Tarmac and cancel flights when they malfunction. They are enormously expensive.

LEE: The low-ball estimate on that is about $1 million per aircraft to build such a system.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: And former fighter pilots tell us it is not safe for commercial pilots to deploy those chaf canisters. Once that shoots out and distracts the missile, they say, the pilot has to take very abrupt, evasive maneuvers. That's practical on a fighter jet, but on a huge commercial plane, Carol, that could endanger the passengers.

COSTELLO: Brian Todd reporting live for us from Washington. Thanks. I'll be right back.

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