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Interview with Mikheil Saakashvilli. U.S. Restricts Flights To, From Tel Aviv; Will MH17 Families Be Compensated?

Aired July 22, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Blaming the U.S. for what is happening in Ukraine, the last line of your piece. We need the journalists here covering this region.

Thank you for getting the story and getting it out there, the facts and the fiction. Appreciate you calling in from Donetsk, Ukraine.

Just ahead, my next guest says that Vladimir Putin wanted him dead or caged. The former president of Georgia, he went to war with Russia. Mikheil Saakashvili joins me, live, on his advice to get Vladimir Putin to listen.

Plus, more families facing the cameras, talking about their final moments, their last contact with loved ones on board of that now- downed plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please be safe, kiddo, I love you. And that was it. I'm pretty sure he saw it because I sent it like five minutes after, but I hope he saw it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN.

An agonizing wait for those of the families who were killed when flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine. Think about it. They are still sitting back home waiting to learn whether their loved ones' remains have been recovered. Bodies, human remains are sitting in a factory in Ukraine. We had heard that most of the bodies had been put on this so-called morgue train, but now we know that nearly 100 bodies are still unaccounted for, possibly back at the crash site. For the 200 bodies that made it, they will soon be flown back to the Netherlands where the grim process will begin to sort out the victims' identities and perform forensic testing. And then you see here, the black boxes that will be heading in a different direction on a different plane to U.K. for analysis.

And one person who knows very well what it's like to tangle with Russian President Vladimir Putin, he's the former president of the Republic of Georgia. Not too long ago, it was just 2008, as Georgia tilted towards the West in its policies, pro-Russian separatists and Georgian troops clashed in eastern Georgia. Russia responded by sending aid and Russian troops into Georgian territory. A familiar scenario for anyone who has been following reports out of Ukraine.

Mikheil Saakashvili was Georgia's president back then. He has written a column for a political magazine what the West should do to rein in Russia's interference in Ukraine. Mr. Saakashvili is now senior statesman at Tuft University's Fletcher Rule of Law and Diplomacy.

Mr. President, welcome.

MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI, FORMER PRESIDENT OF GEORGIA: Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show.

BALDWIN: You, sir, know better than most, Putin's rhetoric. You went to war with the man, not only -- just six years ago. Tell me this, because you have these pro-Russian rebels suddenly handing over the black boxes to investigators, releasing the morgue train into Ukraine- controlled territory, what do you really think Putin is up to behind the scenes?

SAAKASHVILI: Well, I think Putin is very much on the scene, not behind the scenes. From the very beginning, this operation was set in motion by him and I cannot imagine -- you know, we had the same kind of ground to air -- surface-to-air missiles. In Georgia Army and as a commander of chief I had to have intimate knowledge about how they work. I can tell you, there's no way, any Army, especially the Russian, would hand over those missile batteries to some semi- controlled or paramilitary -- they would only operate with the people who are under full command and control of the Army and its command. Of course they have direct link to what happened on this plane and it's hard to say how the system would mistake for a military one. They can distinguish. So there are many questions here but there's no question about direct responsibility of Russian command for what happened.

BALDWIN: Two different things. Two different things jumping out at me that you just said, one, you believe and you're still sorting out the fact that Russians would have had to have been on site, having been on site to oversee it. And that's just one of the things a few years ago, he tells the world one thing, tells the world what they wants to hear and then he does something else. In this case, training rebels and sending more weaponry across the boarder. So what then? How do you get Europe to jump on and draw the line because, so far, they haven't yet?

SAAKASHVILI: Well, remember, he is not -- it's not something that he invented. Actually, when the Soviet Union shut down the South Korean jetliner, the Russian generals went to television to explain the conspiracy that everybody else was to blame, exactly the same way like Russian generals did with the Russian media. Today, the Russian media is convincing that it's Americans downing their plane, or the Ukrainians. Anybody but the Russians.

BALDWIN: Seriously?

SAAKASHVILI: Yes. But these are Russian channels. They are not second rate or third-rate tabloids. This is the Russian government that has implied that. Everybody has been saying that Putin is so smart, he's so great, he has been acting so well. But in fact, he has made several sort of stupid blunders, especially later. The reality is that he's stepped into conflict, for there is no good way out for him. He's implied the same thing in Georgia when Russian troops entered our territory. That's what we are responding. We had separatists for years and that's where Russia showed the opening.

So he implies the same tactics, except Ukraine is 10 times bigger than Georgia. I think this is the middle of Europe, and I think Europe has to react. And the reality is not that Putin is so great or strong. He has strong will to confront and the West, especially Europe, has some very weak will to stop him. And the idea is that every time he goes for conflict with Georgia or Ukraine, he implies that he's fighting with the United States as his primary target. And he says that openly. His speeches mostly about the U.S. and blaming the U.N., and certainly he's also after Europe. He thinks that could corrupt (INAUDIBLE). But I think that's a blunder as well.

BALDWIN: I'm hearing multiple blunders. It sounds like you're saying it is different from Georgia, 10 times longer. I hear you talking about the U.S. I'd love to have you on -- and you have sat in the room more than any of our viewers have. I want to ask you, Putin, the man, is a mystery to a lot of people, Mr. President. And you famously said that Vladimir Putin wanted you caged or kill

(CROSSTALK)

SAAKASHVILI: Well, he wanted to hang me by certain balls of the --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Well, I wasn't going to go there.

SAAKASHVILI: But the --

BALDWIN: You can go there.

(CROSSTALK)

SAAKASHVILI: But the reality is, yes, he likes to intimidate. In our case, the reality thing was that he still couldn't get rid of my government even though he I invaded with 800,000-plus army. At a certain point, the United States stepped up to him and they have put planes on the air, of course, and we resisted as we could with our small resources. And actually there was a certain line when he had to stop. So Putin will stop at the line when he will be stopped.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Who draws the line, Mr. President? Who draws the line? The United States has tried to draw the line. We're waiting for tougher sanctions from the E.U. Thus far, it's just individuals. Who draws the line?

SAAKASHVILI: Just targeting individuals is not going to do it here. I think what the U.S. has done is a step in the right direction. I think what Europeans can realistically do -- and it's doable and it's necessary and they will have to do it sooner or later. The problem is, they actually do it later rather than sooner, and that always raises the cost. But the reality is that whether we've been worrying about Georgia, they should have stopped Georgia then Crimea wouldn't have happened. Crimea happened, and they should have stopped Crimea and then eastern Ukraine wouldn't have happened. If they had stopped eastern Ukraine, this downing of the plane wouldn't have happened. If they don't stop him here, it will spread, and it will spread to other countries in Europe. So what --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I don't even want to think about where that could go next.

SAAKASHVILI: Yeah. Baltic countries, Moldova, but also some other eastern European countries. So what really is necessary now is that -- his main task is to not confront military -- I don't think Europeans will have a real possibility of that. But what they really can have might be much more efficient than weapons and missiles. They can stop buying Russian oil. And even with the turmoil in the Middle East, it can be substituted by other sources of oil. They can stop giving them any control for oil and gas because Russia is so corrupt, they have failed to come up with their own technology and they are fully dependent on Western technology. So if you shutter Russia's cash machine, that's --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Right. And arms as well.

(CROSSTALK)

SAAKASHVILI: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: President Saakashvili, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

SAAKASHVILI: They can really do the trick. And eventually they will have to do it because there is no other way out from this conflict. The conflict will not fizzle by itself. He needs to be confronted. He needs to be stopped.

BALDWIN: President Saakashvili, thank you so much.

SAAKASHVILI: Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: Please come back because we'll be talking about this for some time.

SAAKASHVILI: Thank you very much.

BALDWIN: Coming up, the FAA is prohibiting all U.S. airplanes from flying to and from Israel's main airport after rockets landed near Ben Gurion Airport in Tel Aviv. Are airlines just being more cautious because of what happened with Malaysia flight 17 or is there a real threat in this part of the world? We will discuss. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We are hearing today that the Dutch have sent the transport plane to Ukraine to pick up the bodies of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 crash victims. Today, these refrigerated rail cars delivered the remains of just about 200. That's the latest number of what we're hearing, 200 victims delivered to the Ukrainian city of Kharkov. The train was met by representatives of countries that los citizens on that doomed flight. Meanwhile, back at the crash site, the search continues for those nearly 100 remaining.

And as we take note of the latest developments, let's not lose sight of the people who los their lives on Malaysia Air flight 17. In total, 298 of them. And the loved ones that they left behind.

Here's CNN's Alexandra Field.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A 17-year-old Dutch girl killed. Her father seething in an open letter addressed to Vladimir Putin, the separatists and the Ukrainian government. "Thank you very much for murdering my loved and only child.She was on her way to the holiday together with her little brother, mom, and stepfather. She has been shot out of the sky in an unknown country where there is a war going on."

So many lives lost, so much innocence taken. 80 young ones. Three infants on board flight 17.

Just a baby, Elana mourned in Bali along with her parents. This boy liked gymnastic. Emelia is seen riding a horse. There are teddy bears in their honor and parents with searing pain.

This boy said good-bye to their mom and dad in Amsterdam. Their grandfather, Nick Norris, would take them home to Australia for the start of a new school year.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gentle, clever, beautiful.

FIELD: Entire families gone together.

John Paulson and his wife died with their son, Martin, and their little girl, Shari. Smiling here in a family photo, young Australians, traveling with their parents.

There are heavy hearts around the world for the young victims.

PETER VAN DEN BURG, MH17 VICTIM'S NEIGHBOR: The community is still in shock and in a very deep level of shock and I think people are still trying to handle the situation.

FIELD: Tributes in the Netherlands for a fallen family of six. Outside this Dutch school, a memorial for a beloved teacher, her husband, and their three children. Two sisters from another family died together.

Somebody's Minnie Mouse left behind, somebody's monkey, memories of everyone. So many small reminders of a loss that will be felt for generations.

Alexandra Field, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: An attack in the Israel/Gaza conflict is most definitely impacting American passengers. A rocket landed near Israel's Ben Gurion Airport. Now the FAA has banned flights into the country for the next 24 hours. Before the FAA acted, Delta and American suspended services. The Israel Airport Authority urged airports to reconsider, insisting that Ben Gurion is safe.

Let's talk about this. CNN safety analyst, David Soucie, is joining me. He used to be a safely inspector for the FAA.

David Soucie, the first obvious question is, given what has happened with Malaysia Air flight 17, would this have happened? I mean, how much has air security changed in days?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY & AVIATION ANALYST: Aviation security has always been reactive in certain ways. It's good and it's bad. But reactive part if good. That there's increased awareness of those types of risk. What potentially is bad about that, it makes you wonder when does it become safe again. In response to what's going on with Delta, because without it, how possibly would the airline then say, oh, it's safe? Because they didn't have the information to say it wasn't save in the first place. So the airlines are in a really difficult situation with their risk assessments in flying in that area. And hopefully the FAA mandate will help with that.

BALDWIN: David Soucie, do me a favor and stick around. I have a lot of other questions for you. I have photographs to show you what could be evidence of what took down flight MH-17. We'll parse through those next hour.

Also, will airline insurance companies compensate families of those victims on this plane? Even if the crash is classified as a terrorist act? You might be surprised.

We'll be right back.

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