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U.S. Prohibits Flights to Tel Aviv; Investigation Into Downed Malaysian Airliner Continues

Aired July 22, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: As the families of the 298 families await the return of their loved ones remains, a sensitive but key question arises: Will the families see any compensation for their loss from Malaysia Air?

Zain Asher is joining me live from New York. Zain, take me though. There's a thing called "war risk insurance"?

ZAIN ASHER, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: there is something, indeed, called war risk insurance. It basically covers everything from a hijacking, terrorism, pilot suicide, and, yes, even a plane being shot down in the sky.

Now, it's a separate premium that airlines have to actually buy in addition to other types of insurance. And how much the premiums cost the airlines are determined by things like the stability in the country where the airlines travel to, geopolitical risk, how old the aircraft is, that kind of thing.

Now, in the case of Malaysia Airlines, war risk insurance policy, their war risk insurance policy has already covered the cost of replacing MH17, the actual plane itself. Now it does have to cover liability payouts to the families of those passengers. And that process can take some time because some families might settle out of court.

Others might choose to sue. That might take several years to resolve in court. But chances are that even if war insurance premiums go up, that it won't be passed on to the passengers -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: It will not be. It will not be. If you want to read more about war risk insurance, go to CNN.com. Zain Asher, as always, thank you so much.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: And we continue on, top of the hour, breaking news here on CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

This is what we know from the Mideast and the most dramatic example yet of how this conflict can have a big impact far beyond this region. The FAA has issued a notice to all U.S. airlines telling them that they are prohibited from flying into or out of Israel's main airport in Tel Aviv. Why? Because the damage you see right here and this is major, major damage.

It is only a mile or so from Ben Gurion Airport caused by a rocket. And that attack got some attention of some commercial airlines very quickly. Three U.S. carriers and in fact, Delta, United, and U.S. Airways suspended flights to Tel Aviv even before the FAA officially issued its notice. And then you have European carriers, Lufthansa, Norwegian, KLM, they too are joining the suspension to varying degrees.

In fact, CNN's John Vause, one of our correspondents here at CNN, was on board this Delta flight en route to Tel Aviv that was not too terribly long this afternoon diverted to Paris and he took these photos of images of obviously the plane, some shots of some passengers making their unplanned arrival in France. There they are.

CNN's Atika Shubert is standing by at Ben Gurion Airport for us. Wolf Blitzer is live in Jerusalem.

And then, I will get to you in just a minute.

But, Atika, first, as far as what his happening where you are right now, are you seeing rockets, are you seeing planes? Both?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're still seeing planes taking off and landing. The airport seems to be operating as normal but at the same time we're also seeing rockets.

Just a little while ago, as you know, the sirens went off and the red alert went out and we saw a rocket interception just over Ben Gurion Airport. And this is exactly what the FAA is concerned about. And just a mile from here is where that rocket landed and caused so much of that damage in Yehud.

In fact, we just have a plane now coming in overhead. It looks like it's about to land. The airport is trying to push ahead like business is normal with these planes going back and forth, but the fact is, the FAA and other airlines are now saying they are not so sure about the safety and until they are sure, they are going to cancel and divert their flights from coming here to Ben Gurion Airport.

BALDWIN: Let me just sit on this visual for a minute, Atika. You have rockets being intercepted over your head, you have planes taking off and landing there at Ben Gurion. What does it look like? Can you describe it for me when a rocket is intercepted in the sky?

SHUBERT: Sure.

I mean, it's pretty surreal, actually. Life is going on as normal. You have planes landing and taking off and then all of a sudden you will hear the sirens go off. You will hear an announcement that it's a red alert and then you have really less than 15 seconds to find shelter or just to hit the ground, and then most of the time it's actually intercepted by the Iron Dome anti-missile system.

And what you will see is sort of a like a fireworks in the sky. It's very small, but you will see threat sort of sparks, flares it looks like in the sky and then you will hear the boom. That boom is either the interception or that the rocket has landed somewhere.

I do have to point out that most of these rockets actually land in open areas or they are intercepted but occasionally they cause a lot of damage and they can kill people. In fact, just a few days ago they landed and it killed one man and injured four other people, including a very young child. So they are dangerous, if not terribly accurate. Frankly, they do sow a lot of fear in this area.

BALDWIN: Wolf Blitzer, you have been there for days and days. I'm sure you could recount what the boom sounds like and what it looks like seeing a rocket being intercepted above your head. I know talking with Atika last hour, she was talking about just even Israel's transport ministry saying the reaction from the FAA and some of these airlines to stop coming and going out of Ben Gurion is overreacting. What's your opinion?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, they are very, very angry, the Israelis.

They are not happy about this. Remember, tourism is a huge export import in Israel. The is the height of the tourism season. A lot of pilgrims come, a lot of Christians, and a lot of visitors come during the summer. Hotels are usually pretty packed right now, whether in Tel Aviv or Haifa or here in Jerusalem or elsewhere.

It's pretty empty right now. And remember, what the FAA announced today and these U.S. airliners at least for 24 hours, who knows how long, canceling all flights in and out of Israel, that's going to have an impact. It comes a day after the State Department issued a travel advisory saying people should cancel, not go to Israel, the West Bank, certainly not Gaza, if they have nonessential work that they need to do. They shouldn't go to Gaza they say under any circumstances.

But Israel and the West Bank, they say only go there if it's really important. Nonessential trips to Israel, the State Department is recommending people avoid in part because, obviously, there's, for all practical purposes, a war going on. These rockets still keep coming in. More than 2,000 rockets and missiles over the past few weeks have come in from Gaza.

And Atika is absolutely right. The sirens go off. That red alert goes off and you see up in the sky what is going on and you hear the boom, but people run quickly for some shelter. There's always been a little bit of a concern about Ben Gurion Airport.

I was on that Delta flight, the one that was canceled today, the one that had to make that U-turn over Greece and go back to Paris. That's Flight 468. I was on that flight almost a couple weeks ago when I flew here from JFK in New York to Tel Aviv. And I remember even then speaking to some of the pilots and they were saying there are always precautions that they take flying into Ben Gurion Airport.

He felt very secure and very safe, but right now when a rocket hits a mile away from Ben Gurion Airport and causes the kind of damage it does, especially, Brooke, in the aftermath of what happened the Malaysia Flight 17 flying over Ukraine, these airlines they don't want to take any chances, the FAA right now, they don't want to take any chances.

They would much rather err on the side of caution. If there's any problem whatsoever, you know what, people will figure out another way. El-Al, by the way, they are not canceling any of their flights. People will have an opportunity to fly from the United States to Israel. El-Al will be flying, but U.S. carriers, at least for now, for 24 hours, and several European carriers and even some Korean carriers, they are going to stop at least for now.

BALDWIN: Aviation security up and understandably so, given as you point out even what happened in Eastern Ukraine, and it's all semi- connected. Wolf Blitzer, we will be watching for you, special two- hour "SITUATION ROOM" live from Jerusalem 5:00 Eastern. Atika Shubert, we thank you so much to both of you.

Now to this confusion for the families of those killed when Flight MH17 was shot out of the sky over Eastern Ukraine, because we are now hearing that the number of bodies on board this so-called morgue train is far fewer than first thought. Originally, we were told 282 bodies were transported out of the war zone in those refrigerated cars into the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv.

Now we're hearing that number was closer to 200, which disturbingly means nearly 100 bodies are still scattered across this sprawling crash site some six days after the plane was first show down. For the bodies that did make it to Kharkiv, they will soon be then taken to the Netherlands, which most of the victims are from.

All of this as the war of words continues, a Ukrainian official telling CNN a Russian-trained officer deliberately pushed the button on the missile, but a top Russian diplomat claims pro-Russian militants may have gotten confused, thinking they were targeting a military plane instead.

Joining me now from Donetsk, Ukraine, Michael Bociurkiw from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE.

Michael, welcome back to the program. We appreciate your knowledge and your expertise here.

If I may, I would just like to begin with the exact number of bodies on that train. What number are you hearing?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, OSCE SPOKESMAN: Well, good to be back with you, Brooke.

We were at the train station yesterday before it departed for Torez for Donetsk and then on to Kharkiv. And the number that we were told at the time by the rebels in control of the area was about 290. We have made it clear over the past couple of days is that we have no independent way to verify that number.

We could not go into the cars and we're not the experts. But there was a team, you may recall, of Dutch forensic experts that went in yesterday just before it departed and they, too, could not determine that number. I will tell you what we reported on today is that we were out at three

or four sites of the eight major sites today. Not only did we see some human remains there, but I must say, the stench of human remains was very, very strong.

And we also went for the first time with a Malaysian delegation to where the cockpit impacted and one of their first observations was is that there could very well be human remains there, judging by just the smell again as well.

BALDWIN: So different reports of human remains in different parts of this massive, massive field area in Eastern Ukraine, this rural part of the country.

Michael, do me a favor and just stand by. I want to get a quick break in and I have a lot more questions for you as far as the investigation is concerned and as far as the rebels' behavior. I know OSCE has been in this part of the world for a number of months. Let's talk about how this has evolved and changed over the last 24/48 hours. Do me a favor and stand by. We will take a quick break.

You're watching CNN's special coverage of two major stories around the world.

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BALDWIN: All right. Here he is, Michael Bociurkiw, OSCE, joining me from Donetsk, Ukraine.

Michael, we left off talking about the bodies that had been taken finally in that train to Kharkiv and will ultimately end up in the Netherlands, but the issue we just learned this afternoon the fact that more bodies are probably in that field at the crash site than previously thought. So, my question is, how are you, how are crews combing through this massive area looking for the remaining victims?

BOCIURKIW: Well, Brooke, believe it or not, when we arrived this morning with the Malaysian delegation, three of them, there was actually an eerie quietness about the whole crash site.

All of the emergency workers had left. All of the people who were doing any kind of organization had left. They had even taken down the tents. There was no activity whatsoever. That's what we will be reporting on tonight in our report that goes out to our 57 member states.

In fact, we had an internal discussion today on whether to say it's already trending towards a cleanup operation, because there's no active recovery of remains going on right now. The other thing that we noticed, I must tell you, is that major pieces of the fuselage have been moved, not away from the site necessarily, but they have brought in heavy equipment yesterday and propped some of it up or cut into some. Those are two major findings from the past 24 hours.

BALDWIN: Can I stop you there? When you say moved, is this intentional by investigators or is this moved as in overnight you get there the next day and wonder what happened?

BOCIURKIW: This is by the so-called experts that the rebel groups had allowed in there.

Some of them had, for example, written in Ukraine and Russian ministry of emergency services. But these are folks who have worked in past emergencies, I suppose, before this area transferred into rebel control. But, yes, we visited two days ago the cockpit area that I referred to earlier, and as we left, they were taking out diesel- powered saws and sawing quite invasively, I must say, into the cockpit fuselage.

BALDWIN: That's frightening. Then you have the issue we talked yesterday about the reports of looting. And I'm wondering if -- what you have seen since then, if you have seen that the rebels themselves loosening the grip on this site?

BOCIURKIW: Well, from day one, Brooke, there's been no perimeter security whatsoever.

It is albeit a large area, but there's been no security, so at night it would be fairly easy for people to get in and out there. When we arrived again to that cockpit crash area, which really kind of pancaked that cockpit section, there must have been about 30 or 40 journalists right there next to the area. They were not being chased away or anything. Some of them were even doing stand-ups there.

It gives you an indication of how porous that entire area is. And then one more thing, Brooke, is that while we were there -- you were talking about rockets in your previous segment. There was quite a bit of heavy weaponry fire in the distance. We could a big kind of mushroom cloud and we could definitely hear it. You can imagine the impact that had on the Malaysians. This was their first day combing over the wreckage.

BALDWIN: Michael Bociurkiw, thank you so much once again joining me two days in a row from Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe there working in Ukraine. Thank you, sir. I really appreciate it.

We will have much more on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 coming up, including these new pictures of the downed plane. See all these holes in this piece of the wreckage? Experts say that is or appears to be damage from shrapnel and these photos offer huge, huge clues as to what exactly happened. We will discuss that.

And take a look at this. See this big, white flag? This is the Brooklyn Bridge. This is today. It is usually the American flag. Obviously, that's not what is flying here. Who the heck put it there? How did they pull it off? Why? We will take you there live coming up.

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BALDWIN: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Here's a question. Did a missile take out Malaysia Airlines Flight

17? That is really question number one for these investigators to try to figure out. And these photos that we're really seeing for the first time today could shed some light on the answer, because what they show, these are different pieces of wreckage from the plane you see pierced by these little small holes.

And when you talk to some analysts, it is what you would expect to see if the plane was hit by a warhead on an SA-11 missile, the same kind U.S. officials think could have hit Flight 17.

David Soucie is a CNN safety analysis and author of "Why Planes Crash."

David Soucie, when you see those holes, does that look like shrapnel to you?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, actually, I have never seen an aircraft shot down by shrapnel, I have to say.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Thank goodness. Let's that.

SOUCIE: That's right.

What I have seen is in the Sioux City accident, when there was uncontained engine failure, from the outside of the aircraft, pieces of the engine went into the metal and those were entirely different than the kind of holes that you see here right now. Those holes were high speed. They were titanium. They cut, they sliced through that metal.

These are not like that. These are actually punctures from objects I would say about the size of a half-dollar or so going through that aluminum and pushing the aluminum back as it goes through. So the only other thing I could think of from the outside that would have caused anything similar would be the uncontained engine failure, but it is clear too that there's nothing from the inside going out on these skins, nothing from the inside going out.

So we can rule out, you know, a fuel explosion such as that of TWA 800, and we can rule out K.L. flight that was shot down as well. It was different. Everything is different about those accidents. This is a different kind of missile and it's a different kind of explosion.

BALDWIN: So we know that the plane was cruising on along 32,000, 33,000 feet in altitude. If this had been this specific kind of surface-to-air missile, what would it have done or even this -- as it was described to me by an expert last hour, a cloud of shrapnel. What would it have done to the plane?

SOUCIE: What it would have done is exactly what you see here.

But the difficult thing that I see about these is that it did not just come out as a cloud and then fly through it like some had discussed before. This appears to me as though it created a perforated line down that skin and if you look along the cut edge of the skin, you can see that there's several penetrations through the skin.

And the structure this aircraft relies on that. When you do that to the aircraft and then you have this high pressure inside that actually can allow the aircraft to tear along that line, as though it was a notebook with a perforated line down it. That appears to be what we're looking at here.

BALDWIN: I see. That's one piece of this that we know investigators will be focusing on.

SOUCIE: Absolutely.

BALDWIN: The other issue, we know that the black boxes have been handed over to Malaysia. We don't know if they have been tampered with or not. How can one tamper with a black box, David, and what kind of damage could be done?

SOUCIE: Well, there's -- really you would have to have some very sophisticated equipment, which only a few places in the world have, to be able to take the equipment -- take the information off, modify it, put it back on when you talk about tampering.

What they could do is blank it out. They could get rid of any information on it, which would be incredibly suspect and would discount the fact that they have any value whatsoever. The critical piece of information you're going to get from these black boxes, however, is the attitude of the aircraft when this missile hit it, because if you have that and you can look at the damage to the outside of the aircraft and where the penetration was and where it came out on the other side, you could definitely tell which direction that missile came from to further substantiate where it was launched from.

BALDWIN: OK. David Soucie, I appreciate it. We will be following the investigate obviously very closely.

And this one major story to another one we're watching today, airlines quickly responding after rebels apparently shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, rerouted flights over safer areas. So some were surprised when Malaysia Airlines changed a plane's flight path from Ukraine to war-torn Syria, another dangerous route. Today, CNN grilled Malaysia Airlines about that decision. You will hear how the airline responded. Stay with me.

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