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Malaysia Plane Flies Over Syria To Avoid Ukraine; Mystery White Flags On Brooklyn Bridge; Are The Pro-Russian Rebels Terrorists?; "Slender Man" Victim Gifted Purple Heart

Aired July 22, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Bottom of the hour, you are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. And think about it just an agonizing way for the families of those killed when Flight MH-17 was shot down six days ago over Eastern Ukraine. They are still back at home. They are waiting to learn whether their loved ones remains have been recovered. Bodies and other human remains are right now sitting in a factory in Ukraine.

We had originally heard that most of the bodies had been placed on this so-called morgue refrigerated train, but now we're hearing this afternoon that nearly 100 bodies are still unaccounted for, likely still scattered across that massive crash site in the middle of a war zone. Before the 200 bodies did make it out, they will soon be flown to the Netherlands where that grim process will begin to sort out the victims' identities and perform forensic testing.

As for the black boxes, they will be heading in a different direction, different plane to the U.K. for analysis. When it comes to flying here, you know, it makes perfect sense that airlines are routing planes away from Ukraine after last week's disaster. But one new route will stun you.

Take a look with me, this is the route of Malaysia Airlines Flight 4 from Kuala Lumpur to London. Directed over Syria. And specifically, Homs, a city that has seen some of the worst bloodshed in the country's civil war. So they avoided one conflict only to head straight over another. The company later admitted this might have been a mistake.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUGH DUNLEAVY, COMMERCIAL DIRECTOR, MALAYSIA AIRLINES: We operate about 400 flights a day and one flight went over Syrian air space, again, because it was designated as a safe flight corridor. In hindsight, my personal opinion is that, when I found out about it, we immediately contacted our flight operation guys and said please take a look at these flight corridors. MH-17 should be a warning to everyone and I'd rather err on the side of caution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Let's talk about the specifics here with CNN's Chad Myers and also CNN aviation analyst, Les Abend. But Chad, first to you, we are talking as this Flight 4 has multiple routes, correct?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Certainly and they can fly a flight plan, as long as it's approved, they can go anywhere they want to over Ukraine. I'm going to take you on a journey of where this plane was over the past of couple of days. From the London here, Kuala Lumpur here, going this direction, the opposite direction that MH17 was going. On the 15th, right over Ukraine. On the 19th, right over Turkey and across Romania and back to London.

But on the 20th, across through the Persian Gulf and up across Syria and then here back to London this way and that's where it got curious to see that July 20th and I'm going to take you to the current flight radar, what's going on at this point, and we'll show you where most of the planes go at least at this time of day.

If you're coming out of Europe, this looks like our flight explorer here. But as it comes out of Turkey across Iraq down to the Persian Gulf and out that way, right there, there's Syria. You don't see any planes there. I just saw a Middle East airplane leave from somewhere down here, I believe it was -- I can't even think.

Somewhere in the United Arab Emirates back towards Lebanon, Beirut and it did land, did flying through Syrian air space. If you're at the right height, all these things should be fine and the Flight 4 that we are talking about, that was an approved airway at that time.

BALDWIN: You talked about this on cnn.com, don't blame Malaysia Airlines that's specific to what happened over Eastern Ukraine. But flying over Syria, let me get your response to that.

LES ABEND, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, listen, you know, flying an airplane is a collaborative effort between myself as pilot in command and the dispatcher, and all of these factors are taken into account when we fly the airplane even prior to departure, you know, most of the threat that we consider when it involves a conflict is a shoulder launch weapon. This was inconceivable.

BALDWIN: Inconceivable?

ABEND: Inconceivable. We have conflicts all over the world. This is not to say that we're going to deliberately fly over or through a conflict, but flying at those altitudes, knowing that you're squawking on the transponder, a code that identifies you as a civilian airline, to us it just -- it's inconceivable that we would be facing a threat like MH-17 experienced.

BALDWIN: Now sadly it's conceivable. How does this change all of us hopping on planes around the world from here on out?

ABEND: It's going to be a total game changer at this point. Now I'm going to have to include in my departure check list, thunderstorms, missile conflicts, any sort of conflict at all, I think that we're going to be -- after 9/11, it was -- it was terrorism. We changed our whole operation to deal with a potential threat in the air. So all of this is really going to have change when we consider where we're flying over conflicted areas. MYERS: Les?

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Chad.

MYERS: We talk about these shoulder-fired missiles. At 32,000 feet, commercial airliners are not in danger for what we see on these movies, these shoulder-fired missiles. They will not go up that high, correct?

ABEND: Absolutely. Absolutely correct. As a matter of that in that op-ed piece that I wrote, Brooke and Chad, I mentioned that my particular airline had three airplanes, 767, to be specific, that had what they described as a jet eye system that was specifically designed for man pass and that was our thinking shortly after September 11th. This was in '03 that this was devised by the federal government and considered by Congress and we had them installed on our airplanes in '08.

But the cost was way too high and now you would install anything, even this type of system which is probably available for evasion. It could be outdated the minute it's installed. And at the time, we were talking $1 million to $3 million per airplane and about $300,000 per subscription for each airplane every year that they had this old system that I flew in 2008 that was not really active.

BALDWIN: It is a fascinating opinion piece. You being a pilot to one of our aviation experts, Les Abend, let me just people don't blame Malaysia Airlines, go to cnn.com/opinion. Chad, Les, thank you both.

Coming up next, should the rebels suspected of bringing down this plane be labelled as a terrorist group? We're talking live to the former head of the British version of the CIA and he has some unique ideas about that.

Plus, why were two white flags flying above the Brooklyn Bridge today instead of an American flag? That is precisely what police are trying to figure out right now. Investigators want to know who did it, why they did it, how they pulled it off. Next.

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BALDWIN: In New York City, terrorists have targeted at least 16 times since 9/11, when something is out of place and no one knows why, it generates serious questions. It takes me to what happened today. Look at this, not just one actually, but two white flags appeared flying on top of the Brooklyn Bridge. No one knows who put them there. No one knows why.

But one thing is for sure, the flags are prompting serious concerns about bridge security. CNN's Poppy Harlow is live in Brooklyn for us. And so we know, Poppy, that the white flags have been removed. When did they first start flying?

POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We have no idea and frankly, Brooke, NYPD doesn't know either. That's part of what is so disturbing here. This is the landmark of the Brooklyn Bridge where security it's usually meant to be extraordinarily tight. So at what point overnight or early this morning did two white flags replace those iconic American flags? NYPD doesn't know. They've taken them down.

Let's take some video for you in the last 20 minutes of them actually putting that second American flag back up here on the Brooklyn Bridge. It's a huge feat to scale this bridge and to get up on top of that flagpole to put white flags there. Who could have done that? That is the key question.

Also, the real issue here is security. I was just talking to a detective that I know well at NYPD and I said, how could this happen? I will tell you that he said to me there's a standard level of security at the bridge and he went on to say apparently that security failed this morning or last night, and said perhaps more security is needed.

One of the local city councilman said the same thing. It's flag this time, but what will it be next time when you talk about a potential target or landmark like this. I also asked that detective, have you ruled anything out? Could there be any concerning ties? Could this be more than a prank?

They said they have ruled nothing out. They have a lot of different leads, pictures from people who claimed to be eyewitnesses, people who claim to have even done this. Tweets from a lot of different parties. They are sifting through that, trying to look at the voracity of this.

But the issue here is what kind of security is on this bridge? I can tell you that I was told by NYPD they do not have cameras apparently at this angle of the bridge. It's unclear if they were able to get footage of what happened. They may from other entities that may have cameras, but they did say it's safe to cross the bridge right now.

We crossed it coming over here from Manhattan or on the Brooklyn side. And Brooke, they also said, look, you have two NYPD vehicles on the end of each bridge. But I think they are still a lot of questions. This is a landmark. This is something that's been targeted before. How could this happen?

In just a few moments, police are going to hold a press conference at 4:00 Eastern. We will be there and bring you more as we find out what it is.

BALDWIN: I am just glad, Poppy, that we are talking about a flag changing and that is it. But it's a wake-up that's for sure. Poppy Harlow in Brooklyn. Poppy, thank you.

HARLOW: Right.

BALDWIN: We are also starting to learn more about the rebels suspected of bringing down Malaysia Air Flight 17. Ukraine's president thinks they should absolutely be labelled as a terrorist group. Does he have a point?

Coming up next, we're talking to the former head of the British version of the CIA. He has a pretty strong opinion. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Rebels, separatists, terrorists, how should these pro- Russian groups in Ukraine be called? The groups could very well likely be behind the downing of the Malaysia Air Flight 17. Let me bring in Richard Barrett. He is the former head of MI6, Britain's version of the CIA. Sir, welcome.

RICHARD BARRETT, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM DIRECTOR, MI6: Hi.

BALDWIN: Ukraine's president said these separatists should be called terrorists. Do you agree?

BARRETT: Well, it depends on where you're looking at it from. You know, clearly the act of bringing down a civilian airliner, if it were deliberate and I say if, would be a terrorist act and that's agreed internationally. But beyond that, the international community doesn't have any sort of legal definition of terrorist. So it's quite difficult to say that these people are terrorists as regarded by the Ukrainian president or they are not terrorists as regarded, for example, by the president of Russia.

BALDWIN: You took me there. You made the point, which I think is excellent, that Vladimir Putin, for example, sees that the rebel groups in Syria as terrorists, but the rebel groups, the pro-Russian rebel groups in Eastern Ukraine, he says, no, no, they are just exercising their free rights. Convenient.

BARRETT: Yes. It comes down to politics, as always, rather than any sort of legal definition. And the problem there, of course, is any group that you call terrorist is considered beyond any reasonable negotiation or involvement in any political process. So sometimes it's not a very helpful label to use. But nonetheless, when groups commit acts, which are clearly criminal and clearly terrorist and indiscriminate in affecting civilians and they should be called terrorists and we should be quite open and clear about that.

BALDWIN: Is this simply semantics, though, or something that would carry true punishment, if and when whether it's Russians or pro- Russian rebels are caught?

BARRETT: Yes, right. Well, of course, if you have a group bringing down an airliner or even shooting at the military in a country like the United States and the United Kingdom, they would be a terrorist group because we don't acknowledge that there's any cause that could possibly justify that action and I think the whole world would regard them as terrorist groups.

Of course, in the politics of Russia/Ukraine, you say these people ought to be able to defend themselves, ought to have a right to self- determination. These things complicate the definition of, but I think that the main lesson we can get from the MH-17 is that even if you do support these groups or feel that they may have some justification for their action.

You shouldn't be giving them or helping them with weapons that can cause this sort of devastation to a civilian to a group of civilians who have absolutely nothing to do with the fight whatsoever. So that issue of giving weapons to groups and you don't know what might end up with them is a very real one. Of course, applies to Syria as much as it does to the Ukraine.

BALDWIN: Mr. Barrett, if the rebels are terrorists then what does that make Vladimir Putin and Russia who trained them?

BARRETT: Well, anyone who supports a terrorist, of course, should be condemned internationally. If someone were found to be supporting al Qaeda or the Islamic State as it's now called in Iraq and Syria, I think the international community would be very quick to condemn them and to take action against them. Of course, when it's a state, it's much more difficult.

We don't have any state sponsors of terrorism in a recognized sense. There's an awful lot of murky dealing going on around the world in many sort of areas of conflict where the protagonists are not particularly clear and their backers are not particularly clear either.

BALDWIN: Richard Barrett, former head of the MI6, thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it from New York. We'll take a quick break.

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BALDWIN: Finally, I'm going to leave you something positive here. It all begins with this awful story about the 12-year-old Wisconsin girl stabbed 19 times, allegedly by her own friends. Investigators say the teenage girls charged in the attack were carrying out this bizarre wish to please this fictional online bogeyman, the "Slender Man" character.

After that attack made headlines, dozens of well-wishers started making purple hearts for this little girl, her favorite color. Now the 12-year-old apparently has the real thing. A real purple heart. This was gifted to her by an anonymous military veteran. The card accompanying this medal was said this, the only heart I could find, be strong. How about that?

Here now is the girl's family spokesperson, Steven Lyons. Steven, thank you so much for being here in your purple tie. How did this whole story come about? Do you still not know who sent it?

STEVE LYONS, "SLENDER MAN" STABBING VICTIM FAMILY SPOKESMAN: We don't and this is an amazing story of an amazing little girl with a very brave heart. And a real strong will to live. And so when this horrific thing happened, it brought out the worst in a few people and the best of many, many people across all across the world.

And so this little girl and her family have received thousands of purple hearts and messages and gifts and monetary contributions to help them with their mounting medical bills. And the little girl and her brother go through all of these every day. It's therapeutic and they really enjoy it. This special day they opened it up and it was a military purple heart.

BALDWIN: She's 12. Did someone in her family have to explain no, Honey, this isn't like the cardboard cutout purple hearts we've been receiving? Did they explain the significance of this gift?

LYONS: They did. She knew it was something very special, but wasn't sure what it was. So mom and dad talked to her and explained how -- what a purple heart is, what people do to get a purple heart, the sacrifice that veterans do across this great country and talked to this little girl, explained what this really meant. That's why it's so moving. The family wanted to tell the world this unselfish gift. It's truly amazing and it's anonymous.

BALDWIN: So since it's anonymous.

LYONS: When they received this had --

BALDWIN: Go ahead, go ahead.

LYONS: It's anonymous and they've called out and said they would like to meet and have someone come forward either privately or publicly to thank them both for their military service and for this incredible gift.

BALDWIN: The heart is amazing. All of the hearts and everything she's collected. But can I please just ask about her? How is she doing?

LYONS: She's doing better. You know, we talk about the new normal with this family. The old normal was you know, going to movies and fish fries, which is a very Wisconsin thing and the new normal is still those things. But it's also doctors' appointments. It's therapies, working with both the physical and the emotional needs. But she's getting better every day. She's going to return back to school in September. So we're very proud of her and she is a strong brave little girl.

BALDWIN: At a girl.

LYONS: Very brave.

BALDWIN: Steve, thank you so much for joining me. I can't really say I'm surprised that someone in our military has given her their purple heart. It's pretty incredible. Thank you so much for joining me.

In the final 90 seconds, are Chad Myers, let's just walk viewers through what we're looking at. Live pictures, this is Washington State. This is Arlington, Washington State. A lot of rescue vehicles responding because a helicopter came down somewhere in this wooded area. Chad, we know one person is injured. What more do you know?

MYERS: This is Snohomish County not that far from the Seattle proper. We did have a picture just a little bit ago of the helicopter itself. I don't see it now on the screen. There's a lot of logging going on in the area. The green area, the trees are still alive. But this kind of a logging area up here in the higher elevations. Quite a bit of topography here, as well. One person did walk away. Still trying to rescue another.

Seeing that little piece of fuselage possibly right there is where that appears to maybe be the copter on that side. I saw a zoomed in picture earlier. There you go right there, on its side. The fuselage itself still pretty intact. Clearly all the blades off the helicopter. That doesn't look like that hard of a crash. You still have a lot of pieces still there intact.

BALDWIN: Large lake in Snohomish County. Chad Myers, thank you so much. One person removed, injured from the helicopter there in Washington State. Chad, thank you. Thank you so much for being with me. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Turning things over to my colleague, Jim Sciutto, sitting in for Jake Tapper. "THE LEAD" starts now.