Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Kerry Arrives in Israel to Push for Cease-Fire; Up to 45 Feared in Taiwan Plane Crash; Ukraine Rebels Shoot Down 2 Military Jets; Heated Exchange with Russian TV; Plane with Victims Remains to Arrive in Netherlands

Aired July 23, 2014 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me this morning.

A shocking turn of events in Ukraine and one that's sure to stoke even more international outrage.

Just over an hour ago Ukrainian officials told us that pro-Russian rebels have again fired on aircraft. This time bringing down two government fighter jets not far from the crash site of -- of that Malaysia airliner. 298 civilians died in that missile attack last week and U.S. officials now put the blame on the rebels and the Russian support that helped arm them.

Next hour the first bodies from Flight 17 arrive back home on Dutch soil. Loved ones will welcome their return as will government officials and even Dutch royals.

The Netherlands pauses for a day of mourning and the world watches as the Ukrainian crisis only deepens.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Kharkiv, Ukraine with the latest on those two jets that were shot down.

Tell us more.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Carol, Ukrainian defense officials confirming yes, two jets shot down in eastern Ukraine. People still trying to work out precisely the location but the separatists themselves confirm this shooting down, saying it happened over the towns of Luhanska and (INAUDIBLE).

Now I should point out that in the past few months of the intense warfare in eastern Ukraine, a lot of helicopters and jets have been taken out of the sky. The key issue, though, is this is happening simply hours after the first bodies of those victims on MH-17, the passenger aircraft, have been flown out of government-controlled areas in eastern Ukraine.

To many such shocking timing presuming this was separatists also involved. At a time when the world is simply trying to work out how many bodies have been on the train that the separatist militants have allowed to leave their controlled areas and the crash site there to be brought here to Kharkiv, where officials are slowly moving through those human remains, and we saw this morning loading them into coffins and taking those coffins and putting them on transport aircraft on an airfield here.

Solemn scenes, a moment of silence, and 40 bodies flown out of here on a Dutch and Australian aircraft to head toward Netherlands today. But many people I think will be shocked at the timing of this, the posturing, it suggests that the separatists are involved, that they're blind to international condemnation for the actions they're accused of around MH-17.

And possibly pressure as well that Moscow far from backing down if they have any connections to do with this at all. They are still militants with very heavy weapons able to bring down aircraft in this area in a matter of days since that civilian aircraft tragedy, catastrophe crash in which possibly -- which 298 people died -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Nick Paton Walsh reporting live for us this morning.

I want to dig a little deeper and bring in Brigadier General Kevin Ryan, retired from the army, he's now director of Defense and Intelligence Projects at Harvard and a former defense attache to Russia.

Welcome, sir.

BRIG. GEN. KEVIN RYAN (RET.), DIRECTOR, DEFENSE AND INTELLIGENCE PROJECT, HARVARD: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Is it -- is it as surprising to you as it is to me that two more planes were shot down near this crash site?

RYAN: Well, I think it demonstrates that the separatists are working to some degree independently from any control out of the Kremlin or Moscow. I think that the aircraft that were shot down today have been reported as SU-25s. Those are close air support aircraft which means that they were probably on the Ukrainian side, they were probably involved in supporting some Ukrainian ground offensive in the area.

So you could see it more as a combatant-to-combatant engagement, but certainly it's different than the shoot down of the MH-17, but in any case, I think it proves that the Kremlin continues to support and the separatists continue to try and establish an independent area in the eastern Ukraine.

COSTELLO: Well, doesn't this just bolster U.S. claims that Russian- backed rebels were to blame for bringing down Flight 17?

RYAN: Yes, it certainly lends some credence to it. It underscores the level and the quality of armaments that the separatists have. They want for nothing there. They have tanks, armored vehicles, howitzers, air defense missiles. So they are in essence a separate conventional army existing in the Ukraine borders.

COSTELLO: And then the other question I have, I don't know how close to the crash site that these two war planes were brought down, but that's further contamination to this crime scene.

RYAN: Yes. You know, coming on the tails of the MH-17 shoot down, it certainly adds to the emotion of the moment. They are two separate incidents, and it doesn't in any way excuse the support or the behavior of Russia with regard to the separatists, but this was probably a combat engagement as opposed to a shooting of innocent civilians.

COSTELLO: All right. Brigadier General Kevin Ryan, thanks so much.

In about an hour the first plane carrying the remains of victims from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 due to arrive in the Netherlands. I think we have some live pictures for you. Thank you so much, General.

Do we have those live pictures from Eindhoven airport? We don't have those -- we don't have those pictures for you just yet, but we will. Today is a national day of mourning in the Netherlands. We're going to take you to the Netherlands in the next hour of NEWSROOM -- actually, we're going to take you there sooner as soon as we get that shot up.

And of course, the bodies are arriving from eastern Ukraine to the Netherlands where they're going to have a touching ceremony.

U.S. officials believe Russia has been funneling weapons to the rebels even after the Flight 17 disaster. Russia has also been busy advancing its propaganda campaign deflecting blame and voicing indignation.

CNN's Chris Cuomo got a taste of that earlier this morning. He's in Amsterdam awaiting next hour's ceremony and he got into this heated exchange with a news anchor for Russia's state-funded TV network. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Why hasn't Russia, specifically Vladimir Putin, why hasn't he come out and strictly and in a straight way condemned how the crime scene was handled, how the dignity of the dead was abused, how crime scene investigators weren't let in? Why hasn't Russia, why hasn't Vladimir Putin come forward and condemned how this crime scene has been handled?

PETER LAVELLE, RT NEWS HOST: Well, I think the answer to that is a very, very straightforward and simple. Ukraine is not in Russia. Vladimir Putin doesn't control a crime scene in a foreign country. I think it's quite ludicrous for you to ask that question. He's come out and demanded a complete investigation. As a matter of fact, on Monday of this week Russia gave its assessment of the reconnaissance and surveillance of satellites and what was happening in the crime scene.

We don't have that coming out of Washington. So I think that's what you should be asking is that why is the State Department relying upon Twitter and YouTube and other social media for its case when Russia has already given its -- or at least part of the forensic evidence that is necessary to solve this horrific crime.

CUOMO: Maybe you haven't been following it, but the U.S. is actually coming out with a lot of its own intelligence that connects what happened to MH-17 to the acts of Russian militants and perhaps to the involvement of Russia in either training, equipping, or maybe even assisting in this horrible operation of bringing this plane.

(CROSSTALK)

LAVELLE: What -- what forensic evidence are you talking about? What forensic evidence are you referring to? Twitter?

CUOMO: They are releasing intelligence information about the -- no, not Twitter. I do not think, Peter, this is something to be flip about. 298 people lost their lives. Let's not play politics here. OK?

LAVELLE: No, I think the U.S. State Department has been very flippant about it.

CUOMO: There's plenty of intelligence coming out.

LAVELLE: Very flippant about it. Where is the evidence?

CUOMO: Listen. I think that --

LAVELLE: That's what we need to solve this crime. It's not coming out of Washington.

CUOMO: Peter -- Peter --

LAVELLE: Even intelligence officials are saying they don't know who did this, they don't know where it came from. The United States spends $100 billion a year on global intelligence and they can't find out? This is extraordinary. There were NATO ships in the Black Sea watching Ukraine like a hawk.

CUOMO: Peter.

LAVELLE: Where is their data? Please show us the data. Then we can move forward and maybe this can help resolve the crisis in Ukraine.

CUOMO: Peter. Peter, take a breath, OK? Because this isn't a debate. It's easy to bandy about points and confuse facts. There's no need for that because I'm not here to debate with you who did this, OK? You brought that up.

LAVELLE: I really wish you would stick with the facts.

CUOMO: You want to play those talking points. I asked you a simple question.

LAVELLE: Stay with the facts.

CUOMO: Peter, I am -- everything I'm saying to you --

LAVELLE: You're the one who's playing with talking points.

CUOMO: There's U.S. intelligence. Peter, why are you afraid to hear what I'm saying? I'm not here to fight with you, OK?

LAVELLE: I'm not afraid.

CUOMO: I just left the crime scene. The last thing I want to see is more violence of any kind. Verbal or otherwise, OK?

LAVELLE: I would like you to ask the U.S. government to release all of its data from satellites and compare it to Russian --

CUOMO: They are doing exactly that.

LAVELLE: See where they match, where they don't match. No, they're not.

CUOMO: Peter, I don't --

LAVELLE: You're living in a parallel universe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Chris Cuomo joins us live now.

That was quite the heated exchange, Chris. So let's just run down the facts of what the United States says it knows about Russian involvement.

CUOMO: Well, look, the first point is, Carol, is that the suggestion that there isn't any forensic or intelligence-based or demonstrable evidence in this situation is just false. Can they say for sure who's they, the U.S., the western authorities, Ukrainian government? Can they pinpoint yet exactly who did it and how and when? No. But they are much closer -- to that reality than they are to not knowing anything.

They have satellite imaging that allows them to see the path of this rocket. They know where it was located. They know what Ukrainian assets were and were not in that area. They know whether Ukraine had a plane in that air space or not during that time. They know about a steady flow of munitions from Russia to the Ukraine rebels, and I think that point is the most frustrating.

As you well know, Carol, it is very easy to spin things, propaganda is a powerful word, it's a powerful device, but especially today when the bodies are just starting to come home to their loved ones and here we are, as you know we're in Amsterdam in front of Schiphol Airport where MH-17 began its journey and all of the flowers and all of the people wanting to remember and give dignity to the dead, this is not the day to conflate the truth with fiction, and that is one part of the propaganda machine.

Do they know what missile system was used? Yes, in all likelihood. Do they have the trajectory? Yes, in all likelihood. Do they have a very small amount of possibilities about how it happened? Yes. And almost all of them point at the militants, and they are almost undoubtedly getting help from Russia, and we know that, Carol, because when we spoke to the self-appointed prime minister, who is desperate to be taken seriously as being in charge of his region, and that's a key component to this situation, when I asked him, is Russia helping you? He wouldn't answer.

And when I said, why won't you answer? If you want to be seen as the man in charge, shouldn't you be happy to say, I'm in charge, nobody is helping me, and he said, I will not answer. Ask Russia.

I mean, the suggestion there is very strong that there is a basis for speculation of their involvement at the least, and to fight that fights the reality and continues the disrespect of the victims from MH-17.

COSTELLO: I'd have to agree with that, Chris Cuomo. Thanks so much.

Chris Cuomo reporting live from Amsterdam.

And as you just heard Chris say, in about an hour the first plane carrying the remains of victims from Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 due to arrive in the Netherlands. Today is a national day of mourning in the Netherlands. Nearly two-thirds of the people on board that plane were Dutch. 193 victims in all.

CNN's Saima Mohsin joins us now from the airport.

Tell us more.

SAIMA MOHSIN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Carol, well, in the next hour we are expecting the passengers of MH-17, the first of them, to start making their slow and arduous journey home. They will be landing here at Eindhoven Military Base. Just on the runway behind me. We've already had some helicopters arriving here with dignitaries on board.

The kings and queen of Holland will also be here as will the Dutch prime minister, Mark Ritter. They are, of course, the most senior most dignitaries of the Netherlands here to receive those bodies as will be the families, Carol. They'll be here, too. We won't be able to see them to respect their privacy, but they will be here, too, and what an extraordinary moment that will be for them because they simply won't know which of their loved ones are actually on board those planes.

So far we understand 40 bodies have been loaded to make that long journey from Ukraine over to the Netherlands. They'll come to Eindhoven airport and then they will be transported on to Hilversum, another base, where they'll be identified. And it could take weeks before they are identified, and then finally handed over to families to be laid to rest -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right. Saima Mohsin, thank you so much.

And when those planes arrive and when the ceremony starts, of course, we'll take you live to the Netherlands. We're expecting that to happen at 10:00 a.m. Eastern time.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM, even with the FAA's 24-hour ban on U.S. flights to and from Israel, Secretary of State John Kerry flew to Tel Aviv this morning, pushing for a cease-fire deal.

Wolf Blitzer is live in Jerusalem.

Hi, Wolf.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, Carol. His plane landed at Ben Gurion International Airport, that U.S. airport jet. The secretary of state flies on, everything was smooth, everything was good. A lot of Israelis now they're bracing, they're waiting for word from the FAA whether the 24-hour ban will continue or is lifted.

A full report coming up right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Secretary of State John Kerry says he is making progress in trying to broker a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas. Secretary Kerry will meet with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in just about an hour.

Also that 24-hour ban on U.S. flights to Israel by the FAA remains in effect this morning and will not be lifted until around 4:00 p.m. Eastern this afternoon, but that did not stop former New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.

He got on board a plane and touched down in Tel Aviv -- actually, he's already in Tel Aviv right now. Is that right? That is right. OK. He did that to show his support of Israel, to demonstrate that flights are, indeed, safe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What are you trying to prove by going there today?

MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, FORMER NYC MAYOR: I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just trying to show that it's safe and it's a great place to visit. And Israel has a right to defend its people and they're doing exactly what they should.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: Wolf Blitzer is live in Jerusalem this morning.

This flight ban did not make Israel very happy, did it?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: No, it certainly didn't.

By the way, one slight correction, Bloomberg's El-Al plane from JFK to Tel Aviv lands about an hour from now. We have our reporters, our crews are standing by at Ben Gurion. Carol, they're waiting. Hopefully, we'll get a comment from Michael

Bloomberg, the New York City mayor, who wanted to show his solidarity. He's not very happy with the FAA decision to impose that 24-hour flight ban, United, US Airways, Delta, the major U.S. carriers, suspending their flights to Israel for 24 hours at least. We'll see what happens after the FAA comes up with the update, whether they continue the ban for another 24 hours, whether they lift it.

Most of the European carriers followed the U.S. lead. They have suspended flights to and from Israel as well.

The Israelis, as you can imagine, Carol, they're not very happy about all of this. In fact, I spoke with the prime minister's spokesman, Mark Regev, a little while ago on NEW DAY.

Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK REGEV, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER SPOKESMAN: I drove into Tel Aviv this morning. I passed that Ben Gurion airport, I saw flights taking off, I saw flights landing.

That airport is functioning. That airport is operating. And most importantly that airport is secure. It's probably one of the most protected facilities in my country.

As you know, in all this conflict with Gaza, with some 2,000 rockets fired on Israel, not one rocket, not one, has fallen inside the airport, not on the terminal, not on the runway, and that's because that airport is protected by a multifaceted, multilayer defense perimeter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The FAA though did as you know impose that 24-hour ban on U.S. carriers flying to Israel because one rocket did get through. It landed about a mile or so from Ben Gurion airport and pretty much destroyed a house in the area.

So, that's what caused the alarm among FAA officials. There have been conversations between Israeli officials, U.S. officials, technical people, military people, aviation experts. They have been trying to resolve this issue.

It's an extremely sensitive issue here in Israel because so much of Israel's economy depends on tourism and if no planes are coming in except for El-Al, that is a huge, huge economic problem on this country -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Understand.

Wolf Blitzer reporting live from Jerusalem this morning. Thanks so much.

So is the FAA ban on flights to and from Israel an overreaction or is it an appropriate step to keep people safe?

Let's bring in David Soucie, CNN safety analyst and former FAA safety inspector. He's live in New York. And Shawn Pruchnicki. He's an air safety expert. He's live in Columbus, Ohio. Welcome, gentlemen.

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Hello, Carol.

SHAWN PRUCHNICKI, AIR SAFETY EXPERT Good morning, .

COSTELLO: Thanks for being here. I appreciate it.

David, the fact that a rocket fell near the airport, it seems reasonable to err on the side of caution. I mean, doesn't it?

SOUCIE: It certainly does to me. This is one of those categories that I put in the write that down and read it kind of category. You're saved there saying airplanes are safe to go in and out ever here yet, even our own reporter the other night was looking up at missiles being intercepted by the Iron Dome. You know, those two things in my mind should never go together.

COSTELLO: Exactly. Especially in light of what happened over Eastern Ukraine, right?

SOUCIE: Exactly.

COSTELLO: Shawn, what I found most interesting is that Delta actually led the way. It canceled flights to Israel, and then the FAA came out and instituted a ban. Why wouldn't the government lead?

PRUCHNICKI: Well, my guess, I can only assume, is that they were, in fact, debating that and discussing just that. But, you know, I have to applaud Delta for taking the initial step and saying that, you know, that we are responsible for our passengers and we will make that decision and we're not going to wait on the government, on the regulator to tell us. So I think they did the right thing and very bold of Delta to do that. I think it's great.

COSTELLO: So, David, in light of all of what you guys just said, should this ban be lifted in a few hours? Why would it be safer then?

SOUCIE: Well, why would it be lifted if the purpose for putting it in there was because of these missiles? There's nothing that's changed that says now all of a sudden, something has changed that it's safer than it was before unless, of course, the investigation, which is required by federal aviation regulation, by the way, when there's a risk identified like that, that it has to be closed for 24 hours so they're just simply following the guidelines.

But once that's in place, it has to show that there's been substantial improvement in the safety condition, and there's a very complex and sophisticated safety management system in place, SMS, which has been around -- I worked on it for seven years when I was with the FAA and that was years ago.

So, I think they have to stick to their guns as far as what the regulatory shows and what the safety management system will show and I don't think they will lift it unless something significant has changed.

COSTELLO: Shawn, will we see more of this in the future?

PRUCHNICKI: Well, I -- you know, certainly in these type of zones, you know, basically war zones, yeah, I think it's a consideration that people are far more aware of. I think the awareness is because of Malaysia 17 that happened. I'm not sure what would have happened had Malaysia not occurred, how this would have been viewed.

But I think that, you know, if the Israeli officials are so upset about their economic situation with this ban, then their energy should best be spent trying to prove to the American regulator that it, in fact, is safe, just like David said. Nothing has changed and the onus is upon them to show and to prove that it's safe and the ban can be lifted, not just saying that.

COSTELLO: David Soucie, Shawn Pruchnicki, thanks so much for joining me. I appreciate it.

Still to come in THE NEWSROOM, Malaysia's prime minister says pro- Russian rebels are still interfering with the Flight 17 investigation. CNN's Phil Black is live in eastern Ukraine. He'll join us after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

COSTELLO: I'm sorry to have to pass this along to you, but we do have breaking you. A TransAsia Airways passenger plane has crashed on an island off the coast of Taiwan. Forty-five people are feared dead. Firefighters now on the scene.

I understand this plane was a twin engine turboprop. As I said, 45 feared dead. We understand there also may be injuries on the ground because the plane crashed near a community there. We do have a reporter on the way to the scene. When Andy Lee arrives, of course, we'll pass more information along to you.

All right. Back to Ukraine. Troubling new accusations this morning against pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine. Malaysia's prime minister says they're still interfering with the investigation of the downing of Flight 17. It is now clear that the crime scene is badly tainted. Investigators confirming they found the plane's cockpit cut open by a diesel powered saw.

Phil Black joins me now from Donetsk with more.

Good morning, Phil.

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Carol.

Yes, we can confirm that incident with the high power saw and the cockpit because we witnessed it ourselves a couple days ago. There's no doubt that in the six days since MH17 hit the earth in Eastern Ukraine, there has been significant damage, significant degradation if you like to that crash site, particularly as a place that has not yet really welcomed that many official investigators.

We know we've got Malaysian teams on the ground in the last 24 hours or so. There are other international experts in Ukraine. We understand still waiting to get to that crash site.