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Shoulder-Fired Rockets a Threat to Aviation; New Russian Troop Movement at Ukrainian Border; Conspiracy Theories Abound on MH17 Take- Down; Major Concern for Flights over War Zones; TransAsia Airways Plane Crashes.
Aired July 23, 2014 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.
Surface-to-air missiles, like Russian-made BUK missiles, suspected of taking down that Malaysian plane aren't the only threats that have aviation officials worried. Shoulder-fired rockets a threat. Man pads (ph) like this one can reach up to two, three miles up in the sky. So could it take down a plane in those few minutes during takeoff or landing?
Let me bring in CNN global affairs analyst, Kimberly Dozier, to talk about that.
Kim, first, this is something I've talked to multiple experts about, and I would just love your opinion. If now that terrorist groups see, yes, indeed, it's possible for a commercial airliner flying at 32,000, 33,000 feet can be taken down from a surface-to-air missile, they could do this as well.
KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: This has always been a concern for counterterrorist officials and Homeland Security officials here. Terrorist groups have aimed at commercial passenger jets since the 1970s, when the popular Liberation Front of Palestine hijacked an Air France jet. So either hijacking them, blowing them out of the sky, has always been something they have sought to get massive headlines. So this will serve as just a reminder for those groups to step up their efforts to get access to these kinds of systems.
Now what's different in this situation with the Malaysian jet is that the S.A.-11 is a very technically difficult system to run. It takes a lot of training. It also takes military intelligence to aim that fire and figure out what you're aiming at. Terrorist groups must also be watching the fact that the separatists on the ground, if they did in the end be proven as the ones who fired a missile, they didn't intend to hit a commercial airliner, and this is blowing back on them. So in this situation, terrorist groups probably do want to get a hold of something like that. But then they've got to think about what are they aiming at.
BALDWIN: Right. And to your point, sophist sophistication, it takes months and months of training to use one of these things. But back to your point, Kim, about planes, planes as targets. We have been seeing the reports these bomb makers have been trying to up their ante, be more creative, get -- make undetectable materials. And you go back decades, but even just -- it's been 13 years since 9/11, and airplanes seem to still be prime targets for terrorists. Why is that?
DOZIER: Absolutely. Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, that's the branch in Yemen, has been trying to perfect a new underwear bomb made out of a pretty undetectable explosive. We have also seen the Department of Homeland Security change security procedures for people flying to the U.S. Now you can't fly from some airports with an electronic device unless you've turned that device on.
So they have been probably been tipped off someone is trying to fit something into one of those devices. Yes, it remains a draw. Look at the headlines. What a terrorist group wants to draw followers and to draw funding is to get its ideology out there. It's -- in a sense, a nightmarish popularity contest. And taking out a plane is one of the best ways to expand their influence.
BALDWIN: The bomb maker, we've been reading about trying to beat the system.
Kim Dozier, thank you so much. Welcome to CNN, by the way.
DOZIER: Great to be here.
BALDWIN: From Israel to Ukraine, which hot spots, which conflict zones are safe for your plane to fly over? We'll show you.
Plus, this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: Peter, calm down. Take a breath. We've already had something bad happen. There's no reason to compound it.
(CROSSTALK)
I don't represent the U.S. government.
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PETER LAVELLE, NEWS ANCHOR, RUSSIA TODAY: Asking an intelligent question.
(CUOMO: I think I've asked you several. Your answers, I don't know about the intelligence. But the questions are pretty spot-on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: If you missed this sparring this morning, do not miss it coming up. Chris Cuomo battling it out with a Russian TV anchor over Russia's wild conspiracy theories about flight 17. Do not miss this, next.
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BALDWIN: Breaking news to CNN. Word that U.S. officials are becoming increasingly concerned over new Russian troop movement near the Ukrainian border.
So to the Pentagon we go, to Barbara Starr.
Barbara, what are you hearing?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, you can only imagine that U.S. intelligence is watching that border by the minute. And the picture is not looking good, according to several sources we have spoken to. What they are noticing, we are told, by U.S. officials, is the Russians -- there's about 12 to 15,000 Russian troops on that southeastern border you see. Several of them now breaking up into smaller groups and moving right to the border, less than five miles, some of them. Some of them sitting literally right on the border with eastern Ukraine, right up against that rebel- controlled territory.
Why might the Russians be doing this? The U.S. believes, at the moment, they might be doing it because they want to be able to fire from inside Russia on that side of the border, whether it's Russian troops or rebels, coming back across the border. They fire from the Russian side, they have plausible deniability, they say it wasn't them. They believe nobody can prove it. They can claim it was the Ukrainians firing.
So this is quite concerning right now, because, at the same time, what the U.S. also sees is Russia continuing to ship heavy weapons into the rebel-controlled area. They believe the world is watching only the MH-17 disaster situation, the crime scene that that has become, and is not paying attention. That's the assessment by U.S. officials. And so they are taking this opportunity to ship everything they can into Ukraine, into the rebel-controlled territory. This is something U.S. intelligence is continuing to watch by the minute. They say it's a changing picture -- Brooke?
BALDWIN: OK. And, Barbara, I know it was your reporting with regard to two military jets shot down. Two came from those shoulder missiles from inside Russia, correct?
STARR: Well, not entirely clear yet. To be specific, Brooke, the U.S. intelligence community actually looking at that very possibility. What shot those two S.U.-25s down? We have seen the pictures of the flaming debris. There seems to be no question that two Ukrainian S.U.-25 jets were shot down. Is it possible that they -- that fire came indeed from across the border in Russia? That's what they're looking at right now.
BALDWIN: OK. Barbara Starr, appreciate the reporting out of the Pentagon for us.
And not knowing for certain who is behind the tragedy of Malaysia Air flight 17, conspiracy theories abound. We know that many, including the United States, believe pro-Russian rebels most likely shot that jetliner, took it down with arms supplied by the Kremlin. But Russian media has, of course, its own set of theories, including Ukrainians did it in a botched attempt to assassinate Vladimir Putin or that Ukraine orchestrated this whole thing to make it look like a rebel attack.
Well this morning, CNN "New Day" Anchor, Chris Cuomo, interviewed a member of the Russian media, a news anchor from the state-run Russia Today, and the conversation began with Putin's role in the crash investigation, but quickly turned into a very emotional exchange. Watch.
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CUOMO: I want to ask you, why hasn't Russia, specifically Vladimir Putin, why hasn't he come out and strictly and in a straightway condemned how the crime scene was handled? How the dignity of the dead was abused? How crime scene investigators weren't let in? Why hasn't Russia, why hasn't Vladimir Putin come forward and condemned how this crime scene has been handled?
LAVELLE: Well, I think the answer to that is a very, very straight forward and simple. Ukraine is not in Russia. Vladimir Putin doesn't control a crime scene in a foreign country. I think it's quite ludicrous for you to ask that question. He has come out and demanded a complete investigation. As a matter of fact, on Monday of this week, Russia gave its assessment of the reconnaissance and surveillance of satellites, and what was happening in the crime scene. We don't have that coming out of Washington. So I think that's what you should be asking is that, why is the State Department relying upon Twitter and YouTube and other social media for its case when Russia has already given its -- or at least part of the forensic evidence that is necessary to solve this horrific crime?
CUOMO: Maybe you haven't been following it, but the U.S. is actually coming out with a lot of its own intelligence that connects what happened to MH-17 to the acts of Russian militants and perhaps involvement of Russia in either training, equipping or assisting.
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LAVELLE: What forensic evidence are you talking about? What forensic evidence are you referring to? Twitter?
CUOMO: They are releasing intelligence information about -- no, not Twitter. I do not think, Peter, this is something to be flip about. 298 people lost their lives. Let's not --
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LAVELLE: I think the U.S. State Department has been very flippant about this.
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LAVELLE: Very flippant about it. Where's the evidence? That's what we need to solve this crime. It's not coming out of Washington. CUOMO: Peter? Peter?
LAVELLE: Intelligence officials are saying they don't know who did this. They don't know where it came from. The United States spends $100 billion a year on global intelligence and they can't find out? This is extraordinary. There are NATO ships in the Black Sea watching Ukraine like a hawk. Where is their data? Please show us the data. Then we can move forward. And maybe this can help resolve the crisis in Ukraine.
CUOMO: Peter? All right, Peter. Take a breath. OK? Because this isn't a debate. It's easy to bandy about points and confuse facts. There's no need for that. Because I'm not here to debate with you who did this. OK?
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LAVELLE: I really wish you would stick with facts.
CUOMO: I asked a simple question. Peter, everything I'm saying to you --
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CUOMO: There is U.S. intelligence. Peter, why are you afraid to hear what I'm saying? I'm not here to fight with you, OK?
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LAVELLE: I'm not -- I would like you -- I would like you to ask the U.S. government to release all of its data from satellites and compare it to the rest --
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CUOMO: We're doing exactly that.
LAVELLE: See where they match, where they don't match.
CUOMO: Peter --
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LAVELLE: You're living in a parallel universe.
CUOMO: Peter? Peter? Calm down. Take a breath. We've already had something bad happen. There's no reason to compound it.
(CROSSTALK)
LAVELLE: Ask me an intelligent question.
CUOMO: You are speaking --
(CROSSTALK)
LAVELLE: Ask an intelligent question.
CUOMO: Well, I think I've asked several. Your answers, I don't know about the intelligence, but the questions are pretty spot-on. Let me ask you again, because I'm not a representative of the U.S. You seem to be acting like a representative of Russia. And what I ask you is why hasn't Russia --
(CROSSTALK)
LAVELLE: -- five minutes. That's what you did.
CUOMO: France has done it. The U.K. has done it. The U.S. has done it. None of them have sovereign control over Ukraine. Countless countries have come forward. The U.N. has come forward and condemned what was done at this crime scene, but not Russia specifically, not Vladimir Putin specifically.
LAVELLE: And Vladimir Putin has come out with a thorough investigation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BALDWIN: OK. Cuomo did apologize after that fiery exchange, and he reminded the viewers that the focus should remain on the victims.
Coming up next, the sirens are sounding at Israel's main airport, and the U.S. extends its travel ban there by at least 24 hours. It got us wondering, which hot spots, which war zones in the world are safe for your plane to fly over? Can you find out before you board? We'll show you, next.
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BALDWIN: There's major concern right now about flights over war zones and for good reason after what happened of Malaysian flight 17 a couple days ago. And in case you didn't know, planes fly over war zones all of the time. How proactive can you be before boarding a flight? Can you ask for flight information, a flight path? Is that taking it too far?
Let's bring in CNN aviation analyst, Richard Quest, and Chad Myers.
And so first, Chad, to you.
I'm a visual person. Show me the maps. As we talk about hot spots, how many, roughly, are there in the world right now?
CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, I can show you hot spots and I can show you even daily, weekly, monthly out there, too. Obviously, we have danger zones, caution zones and then the no-fly areas, including Iraq. Back up here toward Crimea and the Ukraine. Nothing going through anywhere near the shores of North Korea and Somalia, as well. You have to be too high, above 32,000, whatever. We just talked about Iraq, FAA saying nope, we're not doing that. Look at all the other airlines, Arab Emirates. Many take that through the Persian Gulf. And I'll make your head spin and show you every place there might be
an air show. A military exercise. Whatever it might be that the airmen need to know about on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. This goes on and on, changes daily, weekly. Obviously, some of the danger zones do not.
BALDWIN: Richard Quest, I was talking to Les Abend, and he said absolutely this is a game-changer. Do you agree? Going forward, do you think planes will be forced to fuel up a bit more, longer flights, flying around additional conflict zones? Or no?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: I think it's a game-changer. That's not my view. It's the view of Sir Tim Clark, who is the chief executive of Emirates, one of the world's largest airlines by number of seats and routes and miles they fly. So Tim told me this morning there's no doubt that you have a pre-MH-17 and a post-MH-17 world. And in this post-MH-17 world, airlines are saying, yes, we have our intelligence, for example, if we're flying to a particular city, flying to New York, flying to Tel Aviv or to London. We do have intelligence. But if we're flying over a country that we don't know about, what are we supposed to do? And that's why they are seeking Emirates, everybody in the industry is now saying they need to revise, they need to relook at, they need to rethink this risk-based assessment that's made.
BALDWIN: Certainly won't affect, let's say, New York to Los Angeles. But globally, will flying cost more?
QUEST: This is not a cost issue. I can argue -- I can make an argument that would say, yes, maybe the routes will be slightly different. You would have to go around. Chad Myers can show on his maps. But Chad will also be able to tell me, for instance, there are little nooks and crannies you can go through to get from "A" to "B," which, of course, will help cut the costs.
BALDWIN: OK.
Richard Quest and Chad Myers, thank you both very much, talking about flying amidst these really two major stories involving aviation.
Coming up next, today, another tragedy in the air. Dozens dead after a flight crashes into a residential building. Find out what's to blame, next.
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BALDWIN: Now to another tragedy in the air. A plane trying to land in stormy weather crashed on a small island, as many as 47 people are feared dead, at least a dozen others in the hospital. The TransAsia Airways twin-engine plane went down in a tiny island near Taiwan's west coast. The crash happened shortly after a typhoon slammed the area. The plane reportedly slammed into a residential building and witnesses describe seeing fireballs and burning homes.
Correspondent David McKenzie is in Beijing tracking the crash and the search for survivors -- David?
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, more than 40 feared dead, and scores injured in a passenger plane crash in Taiwan. It happened on Panghu Archipelago. The flight from TransAsia Airways was leaving from southern Taiwan and heading there. They made one attempt to land in inclement weather and then made another attempt. They lost contact with the tower and crashed into a residential area. Scores were taken, in fact, to area hospitals.
Now, the authorities aren't saying what exactly happened. They don't know at this stage. But it came right on the heels of a major typhoon, Typhoon Macmo, which was passing through Taiwan, dumping heavy rain on the island, and on the Panghu Archipelago. Questions being asked at this time. They discovered one of the data recorders, they will investigate and also sending several teams to the island to try and help with the recovery efforts -- Brooke.
