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Netherlands Mourns Flight 17 Victims; Who Killed Russian Spy?

Aired July 23, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. You are watching CNN's special coverage. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

We begin with the innocent. They were innocent people flying as passengers on an airplane, some hoping to go on vacation, others seeing family, many just for work. That was six days ago. Today, their bodies being are returned home and huge numbers of people are honoring them in just the most beautiful ways.

These are the victims of Malaysian Air Flight 17, shot down six days ago. The first bodies left Kharkiv, Ukraine, and arrived in the nation most devastated by the flight, the Netherlands, where the Boeing 777's flight originated; 193 of the 298 people on board were Dutch.

And today the nation of 17 million with their king and queen recognizing a national day of mourning. Wales of grief could be heard as these 40 caskets reached Dutch soil. Then the Netherlands then paid official tribute with sounds from the single bugle here in a solemn ceremony earlier today.

And when you looked at the pictures, as you were watching our hours of coverage, just beautiful, the day in Netherlands, yet the darkest day in the nation as well. Thousands of people seen here lining highway overpasses, roadways. Other hundreds attended a church service to remember those lives lost.

And what you don't see, the flags flown at half-staff, courts suspending trials, even commercials pulled from Dutch radio and TV. Here's some moments as the nation took a collective pause in the hours before the caskets reached their final destination, for now. It's not the final resting place, but a forensics lab. Just beautiful. And much of that, much of the people, the children, the families standing alongside these highways entirely spontaneous, to pay respects and the dignity that these victims deserve, 40 caskets arriving today, according to a Dutch official, 74 to arrive tomorrow.

And then it could take months and months to identify these bodies, which are now housed in this military facility, where the forensics investigation will begin.

So let's bring in a forensics expert. He's Robert Jensen, chief executive officer of Kenyon International Emergency Services.

Sir, welcome.

ROBERT JENSEN, KENYON INTERNATIONAL EMERGENCY SERVICES: Yes, hello.

BALDWIN: We are six, seven days after this plane crashed. It has been a horrendous mass casualty event. First, just thinking of these forensic scientists, these medical professionals with the grim task then of opening these coffins. How is one even trained to handle this?

JENSEN: Well, I mean, to think to begin with, it is a national day of mourning in the Netherlands. And it's a sad day.

Unfortunately, it's going to be the first of many sad days, both for the families, who are the most important, and for the people doing the work. It's what the forensics people do, though. It's what they do, sadly, day in and day out. So they're trained for it. And they will have programs to help them. But the focus really isn't going to be on them. It will be on the families.

BALDWIN: With, Robert, the beginning of a months-long, presumably this months-long process, inside this forensics lab, can you just help us understand how these scientists go about identifying the bodies? What are they looking for?

JENSEN: Absolutely.

There's two parts to this process. The first process deals with the families, the living, the police, law enforcement from different countries going out to meet with the families of the victims, collecting DNA, collecting medical records, building a picture of the missing person.

At the same time, the scientists working in the Netherlands will be examining the bodies, examining for identifiable features, also looking to collect evidence, evidence that could be used as part of the investigation, standard in any air crash. They will do an examination of each and every remains.

And then they will try to marry up the data. And when there's a match, there will be an identification. Accuracy will be so important, setting the expectation that this could be, as you mentioned, months and months.

BALDWIN: Do you think, Robert, given the state of the bodies, that these scientists really will be relying on DNA testing?

JENSEN: Well, we do a lot of accidents, and in all of them, it's often a combination of traditional forensics, such as fingerprints, dentition or dental work and DNA. It's usually never one or the other.

It is a combination of scientific methods and the management of all the data.

BALDWIN: It could even take more than months, because when you look at the numbers of victims and the bodies that have been found, about 100, Robert, have not been accounted for, presumably somewhere back at that crash site. I'm wondering, is there a window when it's too late to identify? If someone is found a year later, would DNA testing be viable then?

JENSEN: It's never too late to try. And we have recovered and identified people years after they have been lost.

I hope that's not the case here. I is sincerely hope that's not the case for the families.

BALDWIN: Me too.

JENSEN: I think what's important is to get the forensic teams to the crash site so that they can do a secondary search, another recovery, because that's what's normal. That's best practice.

And I would caution people who are counting or looking at the number of human remains, pouches or body bags have been recovered from the scene. That's not indicative. Trust what the forensic authorities, the people in the forensic institute are saying. They're going to have the best and the most accurate information.

BALDWIN: What a task ahead for them.

Robert Jensen, chief executive officer of Kenyon International Emergency Services, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your expertise.

And coming up next, as this went on breaking today, two Ukrainian military jets shot down in the eastern part of the country, yes, the same part of the country in which MH17 went down. And a Ukrainian military officer says the missiles may have been fired from inside Russia. Who is claiming responsibility for this? How is the international community responding?

That, plus, as the United States investigates whether Russian President Vladimir Putin had anything to do with the downing of that plane, the British government is looking into who killed a former Russian spy. He was poisoned after speaking out against the Kremlin. And no one has ever been put on trial for his murder. We will talk to someone who has followed the case from the beginning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

After days held in Eastern Ukraine, the victims of those killed in the shoot-down of MH17 are finally getting dignity they so very well deserve. A procession for hours in the Netherlands today, and a day of mourning, the first in decades.

But back in the Ukrainian war zone, we are now hearing Russian troops are moving closer to the Ukraine border, and today not too far from the wreckage, that sprawling area from MH17, Ukraine says not just one, but two of its jets have just been shot down.

And then there is the video which purports to show the aftermath of the shooting. Ukrainian officials blame those pro-Russian rebels, now saying the missiles may have been fired from inside Russia. And an aide to a key rebel leader says rebel fighters brought down the jets using a shoulder-fired missile system

So to Donetsk, Ukraine, we go, to Phil Black.

And, Phil, on the last point, I was just talking last hour to our CNN military analyst, Colonel Rick Francona, and he told me it's very unlikely that a shoulder-fired missile system could actually make that distance, even if it was some 17,000 feet in the air. Tell me what you're learning about the jet shoot-down.

PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, indeed, Brooke. And that's the point the Ukrainian government is making.

What we're talking about here are two SU-25 ground attack aircraft, heavily armed, heavily armored, usually low-flying when they are moving in on their targets. And in this case, they were shot down, as you touched on, not far, just to the east of the MH17 crash site, really between that crash site and the Russian border.

But who did it and how, on these points, there is some dispute. So the rebels say they did this using MANPAD shoulder-launched surface- to-air missiles. The Ukrainian government says that these aircraft were flying at an altitude beyond the range of most mobile or shoulder-launched missile systems.

And they have preliminary information, without being specific about what it is, that these weapons may have been launched from across the border in Russia. So, once again, in this conflict, one event, two very different versions of the truth.

But what it means, and really what's significant is that, one week after -- well, not quite -- MH17 was knocked out of the sky, despite all the international anger directed at the separatists because of the very common theory that they were responsible for shooting it down, confusing it with another Ukrainian aircraft, those separatists have not been deterred at all in their willingness to launch surface-to-air attacks against Ukrainian airpower -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Days after 298 people were killed.

Phil Black in Donetsk, Ukraine, thank you, Phil.

And coming up, it's a headline here. Reading all these articles, this is something that caught my attention. Headline was this, passenger planes are sitting ducks. How vulnerable are we during landing and takeoffs at even 30,000-plus feet up? We will talk to an expert about that.

Plus, President Vladimir Putin is under intense scrutiny over Russia's possible role in the downing of MH17. And now the United Kingdom is opening an inquiry into who killed a former Russian spy almost a decade ago. And the main suspects have direct ties to the Kremlin. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: You are watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. A former Russian spy was poisoned with radioactive material all the

while sipping tea in a plush London hotel. On his deathbed, Alexander Litvinenko blamed his poisoning on Russia's president, Vladimir Putin.

The Kremlin has long denied any involvement. But now flash forward eight years. The U.K. is opening a brand-new investigation into the ex-KGB spy's painful death.

Max Foster is tracking the bizarre web behind the bizarre poisoning and how the new investigation could actually shake up Russia's fragile relations with the West.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAX FOSTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In 2006, former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko died slowly and painfully in a London hospital bed after being poisoned by radioactive polonium.

He had fled to Britain in 2000 and became a vocal critic of the Kremlin. Now the British government has announced a public inquiry into his death. "It's more than seven years since Mr. Litvinenko's death and this government remains committed to seeking justice for his family," the Home Office said in a statement. "It is hoped this inquiry will go some way to achieve this goal."

The inquiry will look at whether the Russian state was responsible. From his deathbed, Litvinenko pointed the finger at Russian President Vladimir Putin. His words were read again by his friend a year later.

ALEX GOLDFARB, FRIEND OF ALEXANDER LITVINENKO: You may succeed in silencing one man, but the howl of protests from around the world will reverberate, Mr. Putin, in your ears for the rest of your life.

FOSTER: The Kremlin has always denied any involvement. But British police believe this man, the former FSB agent Andrei Lugovoy, killed him, with the help of another former Russian agent.

He met with Litvinenko in this London hotel in November 2006, supposedly to discuss a business opportunity. It was here that police believe Litvinenko may have been poisoned, perhaps through a cup of tea he was served. The next day, he fell ill and died three agonizing weeks later. No one has ever been put on trial for his murder.

Litvinenko's wife, who has campaigned for a public investigation, welcomed the news of the choir inquiry.

MARINA LITVINENKO, WIDOW OF ALEXANDER LITVINENKO: I do this not against, not Russia, not England. I do this for justice. I do this for truth. I would like to show people you're able to get justice in any difficult situation.

FOSTER: Russia has always refused Britain's request to extradite Lugovoy to the U.K., who is now a member of Russia's Parliament. As Vladimir Putin comes under intense international pressure over the downing of flight MH17, the timing of the inquiry will put further strain on Russian's relations with the West. Max Foster, CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Let's push ahead on this.

Nico Hines is the London editor of The Daily Beast and he joins me from London.

And, Nico, welcome.

I think a lot of the stories of Russian money have really come out since what's happened in Eastern Ukraine. And we know that London is an investment haven for Russia's super rich generation of oil oligarchs.

So, do you think that that money affected the U.K.'s previous investigation into Litvinenko's death?

NICO HINES, THE DAILY BEAST: I think you can't really argue with that. That is certainly the case.

It's certainly what the widow of Litvinenko has argued. She says that the British government was unwilling to risk its ties to all of this oligarch money which in many ways funds kind of a quite a lot of the modern London way of life.

Now, the police have certainly always kind of had a fair investigation on this, and immediately or a year after the murder, they pointed the finger at this former FSB agent and said that they wanted to charge him with murder.

Of course, Russia didn't extradite him to London and so he will never be able to stand trial. What the family then asked for was, could the British government at least investigate whether they think the Russian government ordered this murder? Until this week, the British government has always put that off.

And only from the continued pressure from the widow, now -- and a high court ruling that she forced, the British government has now finally changed its mind and recently admitted that some international relations factors had a bearing on their original decision not to hold this inquiry.

BALDWIN: There is pressure, pressure, pressure, and then you have the man, Vladimir Putin. Let me quote part of your piece.

Nico, you write this: "For at least one death, Russia's president will escape scrutiny no more. If Western governments are too weak to hold Putin to account, the only hope lies in the families of his many victims."

Do you really believe -- you have been in the weeds on this, Nico. Do you believe the new investigation may directly link Putin to the poisoning? He's, what, former KGB himself.

HINES: That's right.

There is certainly a lot of smoke. And whether or not they can actually unearth fire to prove that Putin himself gave that order is potentially unlikely. But what it does look like is that the judge who has been appointed to lead this inquiry and who was formally in charge of the inquest into Litvinenko's death, he has already publicly said in that high court hearing that he has seen with his own eyes evidence that proves or at least enough evidence to build a case that would suggest that the Russian state was involved in ordering this murder.

So, you're not going to probably have someone stand up and say we know for a fact Vladimir Putin did this. What we probably will hear, and what we expect to hear over an inquiry that will now go on for over a year, is that there is evidence, and that there is proof that would suggest that maybe this does link back to the Kremlin in some way.

BALDWIN: Proof that this would suggest maybe linked. I hear all your qualifiers in there.

(CROSSTALK)

HINES: Well, you know, it's always the mandarin's way, isn't it, of qualifying these things.

BALDWIN: Absolutely.

Nico Hines, good journalistic qualify there in this case, from The Daily Beast, thank you so much for joining me from London.

Coming up next here on CNN, from the Middle East to Africa, this map shows the hot spots President Obama is monitoring right now. How many other presidents have faced this many international challenges at the same time? And how has he responded to the shooting down of Flight 17? There are critics calling him out for fund-raising as this tragedy is unfolding. We will discuss.

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