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Forensic Identification Process Begins for Victims; U.N. Shelter in Gaza Hit; Putin in Panic Mode?; Interview with Rep. Jackie Speier

Aired July 24, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning. I'm Carol Costello. Thank you so much for joining me.

Let's head live to the Netherlands now. It's another tough day there. Two more planes carrying the remains of those aboard Flight 17 have arrived from eastern Ukraine. Less pomp and circumstance this morning, but great respect as the coffins are taken off those huge planes and loaded on to hearses. Those on the way to a military base for a grim task, identifying the remains so that the victims can be returned to their loved ones.

Our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta is in Hilversum, Netherlands where the work gets under way. Good morning, Sanjay.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning -- Carol. It is grim. As you mentioned, there's no other way of describing it. If I can tell you for just a second, Carol. You saw those planes landing some time ago. There was a moment of silence really across the country, including here, the gates were shut.

You can see the flowers, people coming to pay their respects, so many people we don't know if they're family members or just citizens who are coming here to pay those respects. You get an idea of just how somber the tone is.

Behind me is that military base. You have 75 investigators. They come from all over the world, they represent the countries of the passengers that were on that plane and they are going about the process of starting to identify these remains.

You really want to figure out the cause and manner of death often, but the main goal here is obviously identification. And they set up stations. They want to figure out other identifying features. They talked to families to find out everything from clothing and jewelry to body markings, tattoos, piercings, anything to make that identification easier. They find dental records, medical records and then they also rely on DNA analysis as well.

But Carol, can you imagine they've been going to these families asking for that information, to try and make these identifications. It's tough for everyone, the investigators as well. But that's what's happening right behind me -- Carol. COSTELLO: Because of the conditions of the bodies, Sanjay, this task

will take quite some time, right?

GUPTA: Yes. I think that's a really important point. You know, we talked about the condition and the fact that the scene was tainted -- was the word that was often used. That makes it different scientifically. First of all if you're doing DNA analysis you really need to have samples that aren't tainted because you don't know where the DNA is coming from. It makes it difficult to have matches.

Dental records and that being important in this case, Carol, because the dental records can withstand some of the contamination and can withstand some of the time in the fields as well. But yes, it's going to be challenging because of that and just because of the sheer scale of what they're trying to do as well.

COSTELLO: All right. Sanjay Gupta, thanks so much. Sanjay reporting live from the Netherlands this morning.

A bit more on the breaking news I told you about just a few minutes ago. There was a -- some kind of military strike against a U.N. school in Gaza. Inside that school which served as a shelter, many women and children, we understand there are death and scores of people injured. The United Nations seems to be placing blame on Israel saying it tried to get something from the Israeli military forces to get the people out of there before this area was targeted but for some reason. That did not happen.

Well, the Israelis are responding now. Wolf Blitzer is in Jerusalem with that. What are they saying -- Wolf?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're saying that Hamas itself may have been responsible. The IDF, the Israel Defense Forces, has just put out a formal statement reacting to what's going on in Gaza, the grim scene over at that United Nations school.

Let me read to you, Carol, to our viewers what the Israel Defense Forces statement said. It says this. "The IDF is currently in the midst of combat with Hamas terrorists to the area of Beit Hanoun." Beit Hanoun is where that school is. Who are using -- they're accusing Hamas of using civilian infrastructure and international symbols as human shields.

The IDF statement goes on to say, "In the course of the afternoon, several rockets launched by Hamas from within the Gaza strip, landed in the Beit Hanoun area. The IDF is reviewing the incident." So they're not flatly saying that one of the Hamas rockets actually hit the school. They are saying that several Hamas rockets were launched and landed in that area around the school. They say they're reviewing the incident but they are clearly suggesting that maybe -- maybe this incident at that UNRWA school, that United Nations Relief Works Agency School, was the result of Hamas. This is the IDF statement.

Now as you heard our reporters on the scene there in Gaza -- Ian Lee and Karl Penhaul and our producers, they've been showing our viewers these really disturbing images and the number of casualties significant. These are people who fled their areas went to the school seeking refuge there and there's no doubt that UNRWA made available the coordinates of the school to Israeli officials to make sure Israel wouldn't bomb it.

So now you have the Israeli response now. They're suggesting that maybe -- maybe this was a Hamas rocket that hit that school. At the same time Hamas not deliberately trying to hit the school but it may have just landed accidentally in that area.

At the top of the hour, a lieutenant colonel, Peter Lerner, the spokesman for the IDF -- he's going to join us here on CNN. We'll get his formal reaction. I know they're investigating. We'll see what else they have to say. But it's another where these awful incidents suggesting, you know what -- a ceasefire would be good for everyone right now, if only the diplomats could get together and work out a deal.

COSTELLO: I hope so. Did Israeli authorities tell you -- the United Nations says it tried to get in touch with the Israeli military and never could. Did they say anything about that, the Israelis?

BLITZER: No, They didn't say anything about that. They did say that they -- they have their own evidence, at least so far, that maybe this was a Hamas rocket. They haven't said anything other than that. We might be getting more from the Lt. Col. Lerner at the top of the hour. But right now the Israelis are obviously very, very sensitive to what's going on in this Beit Hanoun area in Gaza.

This is an awful, awful incident and there's going to be the blame game, there's no doubt about that. Hamas will blame the Israelis and now it seems the Israelis are starting to blame Hamas.

We'll get more information. What will be critical will be eyewitness account, forensic evidence. They'll be able to determine fairly soon if this rocket or artillery shell, whatever it was that landed in this building was launched by Hamas or launched by Israel. There will be experts on the scene, I'm sure they will be able to determine that including United Nations personnel who were there as well.

But it's obviously a very, very sensitive issue right now. Civilian casualties in Gaza have been very, very significant over these past two weeks, especially since the Israeli ground forces went in a few days ago.

COSTELLO: All right. Wolf Blitzer, we look forward to your interview at the top of the hour. Thanks so much. I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: All right.

We've been telling you about that terrible military strike on a U.N. school in Gaza, a school meant as a shelter to protect dozens of women and children and families staying there, but as you can see, some sort of military strike here. We understand that there are deaths and scores of people injured, perhaps more than 100. Right now, we don't know who was responsible, was it Israel? Israel says no, it was actually Hamas who accidentally sent up a rocket and it hit that U.N. school shelter. So we're still like ferreting out that information.

In the meantime the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is in Cairo, Egypt this morning. He's trying for a second time to end the bloodshed and broker a deal between Israel and Hamas. Some say we're pretty close -- who knows?

CNN global affairs correspondent Elise Labott knows. She's following the story. Tell us more, Elise.

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well Carol, Secretary Kerry has been out there for a few days shuttling back and forth between Cairo and Israel and the Palestinian territories and today's attack really underscores the need for a ceasefire.

Everyone says that they're willing to have a ceasefire. Israel has agreed to this Egyptian proposal, but Hamas has really been digging in its heels saying it's not going to stop until some of its demands are met, particularly ending the economic blockade for the people of Gaza. And that's why fitting all these pieces together are really important.

What secretary Kerry is focused on is getting an end to the fighting and then a subsequent negotiation between Israel and the Palestinians about how you really improve the situation for Palestinians. On the Israeli side, how you demilitarize Hamas so we're not back here in another few years with the same conflict because unless there's a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem we're really destined to keep repeating it -- Carol.

COSTELLO: And when you say economic blockade, that means Hamas wants to open the borders between Egypt and Gaza and Israel and Gaza?

LABOTT: That's right. And, you know, you -- when they had the ceasefire a few years ago, you had Egyptian president Mohammad Morsi who was with the Muslim Brotherhood. They were very close to Hamas and so they were able to open up the border crossings a little bit, ease the humanitarian situation.

Right now you have Egyptian president al Sisi who is really against the Muslim brotherhood, you saw what he did to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and Hamas is an offshoot of that.

So Egypt in fact, is cracking down on Hamas since the new Egyptian government has taken over. They've closed all those borders. And so what Secretary Kerry is trying to do is, while leaning on the Palestinians, also trying to get the Egyptians to do their part to ease up on the border. But you can't do that until there's more security arrangements set out.

So it's really a whole complex web of things that they need to do, but right now, the most important thing is to stop the fighting and when you see Hamas -- over the last several days you've seen at lot Israeli deaths, you've seen a lot of carnage on the Palestinian side, they don't see that they need to stop the fighting because they feel they've had significant victories -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Elise Labott reporting live for us this morning.

Still to come in the newsroom, Vladimir Putin remains defiant in the face of criticism over Flight 17 but some say his tough shell is beginning to crack. CNN's Brian Todd has that story for us. Good morning.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol. Vladimir Putin has taken heat from several sides in the wake of the Malaysia air shoot-down and he has responded erratically. Is he panicking? I'll have that story after the break.

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COSTELLO: Western powers are turning up the heat on Russian president Vladimir Putin. He continues to deny involvement in bringing down Flight 17 and some analysts say what looks like political posturing might actually be a sign that Putin and his cabinet are panicking.

CNN's Brian Todd joins us with more on this. Tell us more. I'm intrigued.

TODD: Well, Carol, some observers believe Vladimir Putin and his close circle are simply up to their necks in this and that they're grasping. They say in the wake of the Malaysia Air shoot down things in Ukraine have gotten beyond Putin's control and he knows it.

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TODD: Bursts of white smoke, observers on the ground clearly agitated. At the scene of burning wreckage armed men in fatigues pick up fragments of what's purportedly a Ukrainian fighter jet shot down in eastern Ukraine. Not yet confirmed whether this was the work of pro-Russian rebels inside Ukraine or Russian forces themselves and whether Russian president Vladimir Putin knew about or approved the operation.

If Putin's behind the attack, just days after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the question, what's driving his aggression?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His objectives are preferably to take control, at least informally, of a large swath of Ukrainian territory but he's failed with that. If he can't do that his lesser objective is to destabilize portions of Ukraine's east.

TODD: But some observers say Putin and his cabinet are in panic mode with intelligence pointing to Russian involvement in the Malaysia Air shoot down. And with crippling sanctions possibly imminent they say Putin is deflecting blame towards Ukraine and NATO accusing the alliance of building its forces in eastern Europe to threaten Russia.

A NATO official scoffs at that but Putin does seem to be using NATO's actions as a rationale for his military posture. VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA: The scale of the training and preparedness is also increasing. It is important to prepare our defenses on schedule.

TODD: Body language of a guy who's panicking?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I don't think he's panicking, but he is in really a hard place. He has enormous pressure coming from the international community right now and domestically, he's under pressure.

TODD: Pressure from Russia's business elites to avoid more sanctions; pressure from Russian nationalists to get tougher on Ukraine. So if he's not panicking, analysts say, Putin's at least in his judo stance.

DOUGHERTY: You can almost see it. His balancing -- he does this when he talks. He is a judo expert and he is prepared, he's ready to parry, thrust and protect Russia from what he expects are going to be the threats.

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TODD: But what about his top security cabinet -- the people in the room with Putin during that address? Some of them in the video we observed look visibly uncomfortable as Vladimir Putin spoke to them. The analysts we spoke to say these people are likely not panicking, despite the faces you see there, but they are worried about the pressures on Russia's military and economy. They simply don't have the gambler's gene that Vladimir Putin has -- Carol

COSTELLO: Yes, they don't have his judo stance. I'm still getting over that one.

TODD: That's right.

COSTELLO: What exactly is driving this idea that Putin and his cabinet are in panic mode?

TODD: Well, I think it's their various responses to things, the accusations they throw out, some interpret as being wild accusations about NATO's buildup, threatening Russia, about Ukraine being involved in the shoot down. He threw those out pretty early on and he hasn't really backed off of them. And at the same time, he's calling for a full investigation while there are a lot of concerns that he might actually obstruct part of that investigation -- Carol. So there's a lot of erratic behavior on his part.

COSTELLO: All right. CNN's Brian Todd, thanks so much.

TODD: Thank you.

COSTELLO: So what can anyone do about Putin? With me now, Congresswoman Jackie Speier. Good morning.

REP. JACKIE SPEIER (D), CALIFORNIA: Good morning, Carol.

COSTELLO: Do you believe Vladimir Putin is in panic mode?

SPEIER: Well, he's never going to show it if he is. I mean he is a great poker player. But I do think that the sanctions that the United States has imposed is creating angst by the oligarchs that are there, that surround him. It comes down to money in the end and I think they're starting to feel the pain.

COSTELLO: Senator Lindsey Graham told me the Russian people, not just the rich Russian people, but the Russian people have to feel pain for Putin to bend. Do you agree?

SPEIER: Well, I think that Putin is going to try and find a way to massage this issue so he doesn't look like he is retracting. And he is, you know, famous for, you know, good defense being a strong offense. So we're not going to see him do any mea culpas to speak of.

COSTELLO: Well, despite -- in spite of Brian Todd's package, his story, Putin does seem to be blowing off the world. Russian troops are still amassed near the Ukrainian border. Russia is still supplying weapons to the rebels. He just doesn't seem to care.

SPEIER: Well, I think he cares when he starts looking at his bank account. The EU is poised now to consider whether or not they will take action to impose sanctions as well. In the EU they have to make them unanimous. That's a pretty heavy lift. But if they move forward and that would be a major step, then you're going to see I think great consternation.

I mean, this is a very explosive situation there and it does appear that the Russian separatists have escalated their attacks since the Malaysian aircraft was downed, not actually decreased them.

COSTELLO: Well, you mentioned the EU and here's the thing about that. Russia supplies 24 percent of Europe's natural gas, 30 percent of its oil, 50 percent of Europe's gas travels through pipes in Ukraine and you know what happens if the price of energy spikes. How can the United States convince Europe to impose truly painful sanctions on Russia?

SPEIER: So I think the way sanctions would be imposed would not be in the energy realm, but more in the financial area relative to the money that they have in banks in England and debt and the like. It's not going to be I think relative to energy and you've also got France offering to sell weaponry to them as well. So it is a dance. It's a very delicate dance.

COSTELLO: Congresswoman Jackie Speier, thanks so much. I appreciate it.

SPEIER: Thank you.

COSTELLO: Checking other top stories before I go, President Obama considering whether to send National Guard troops to the U.S. border with Mexico to help handle the immigration crisis. Over the last several months, tens of thousands of young people from Central America have illegally crossed the border. The President's set to meet tomorrow with the presidents of Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador to talk about the crisis.

A U.S. senator is accused of plagiarizing part of his masters' thesis in college. Democratic Senator John Walsh of Montana says he was being treated for post traumatic stress disorder at the time and he didn't mean to lift material from other published works. Walsh is an Iraq war veteran.

General Motors will spend up to $600 million to compensate victims of a faulty ignition switch. The switch is linked to at least 13 deaths. Their family members and people who are injured in crashes involving the switch can start filing for payments next month. That report comes one day after GM recalled another 718,000 vehicles.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" after a break. .

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