Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Mali Plane Crash; More Victims Arrive; Russia Firing into Ukraine; Strikes Hit U.N. Shelter; Kerry Pushes for Cease-fire

Aired July 24, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Sometimes pictures like these need no description. We've been watching hearse after hearse after hearse. And within each hearse, a coffin, the victims of Malaysian Air Flight 17. In a similar scene played out yesterday. It's a town called Hilversum in the Netherlands. It's a town that lost three entire families in the downing of this plane. And, again, just beautiful, the respect and dignity, appropriately, needing to be paid to these victims of this crash there, mothers and fathers and sons and daughters, and they are all going on, 74 today, we watched 40 yesterday, going on to that forensics lab in this town in the Netherlands. Keep in mind, of the 298 victims on board that plane, those 298 lives, nearly 200 are Dutch nationals. They will be identified and then ultimately brought to their final resting place.

You've been watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for joining me.

And if we would like to stay with the Netherlands, just let me know in my ear, we can go to Sanjay. We'll do that in just a moment. We'll take you back to this story and continue telling you what's happening to these victims, to the families, with the investigation of MH17.

But let's begin with another commercial airliner crashing in a conflict zone. The number of people on board this plane, this is Air Algerie, could be as high as 119. Some of you may have woken up to the news this morning or to alerts on your phone that Flight 5017 disappeared over Africa, falling off the radar less than an hour after taking off from the West African nation of Burkina Faso. Hours later, the airline reported the plane had apparently crashed and now they're saying French forces stationed in the area detected the wreck of the plane in a remote desert area of Mali. It is reported to be where Islamist militants have been fighting the government of Mali and French forces for months.

But we should note, we do not know, at least at this hour, why this plane crashed. There were also thunderstorms in the flight path. That could be a factor. So for that alone, we'll talk to Chad Myers about that. Chad's joining me here. CNN aviation analyst David Soucie is joining me. Our Madrid bureau chief, Al Goodman, joining me as well.

So, Al, let me just begin with you on the who, what, where we know so far. What do we know about the cause of the crash and who was on board this plane? AL GOODMAN, CNN MADRID BUREAU CHIEF: Hi, Brooke.

As to who was on board the plane, we've had the most definitive description here just in the recent hours from an executive of Algerie Airlines giving a news conference in the Algerian capital. He said there were 116 people aboard from 16 different nationalities. Fifty French nationals, 24 from Burkina Faso, that's the country in Africa - in West Africa, where the plane took off from. There were five Canadians, four Germans, eight from Lebanon, three people whose nationalities are not immediately known, and a Spanish crew.

Now, this was supposed to be just a straight-forward flight overnight. It left about 1:00 in the morning from Burkina Faso. It was supposed to be about a three-hour flight straight north to Algeria. But the French foreign minister has said in France that the pilot apparently had problems with the weather and went to make a diversion and that was about 50 minutes into the flight and that's when contact was lost with this flight.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: You bring up the weather, so, Chad, let me just go straight to you. How bad was the weather at the time? What was it looking like in this part of the world?

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: They were flying through what we call the ITCZ, the Intertropical Convergence Zone. It's where the storms that become hurricanes off Africa and leave Africa, go into the Atlantic, become the hurricanes that approach the United States. This plane flew right through a large cluster of thunderstorms that may eventually get off the African coast and become something tropical. It was a large, violent, complex of thunderstorms that the pilot was trying to avoid.

BALDWIN: Let me talk about the pilot and also just the flight path, David Soucie, and read you - because we know the FAA considers this area high-risk for U.S. Airliners. And this is just part of what they've said, quote, "U.S. operators and airmen should avoid (INAUDIBLE) into, out of, within or over Mali, at or below x altitude due to insurgent activity. There is risk to the safety of U.S. civil flights operating into, out of, within or over Mali from small arms, rocket-propelled grenades, rockets and mortars and anti-aircraft fire to including shoulder-fired, man portable air defense systems, that's what they call man pads."

So the FAA, David, they don't have authority over international carriers, but one has to wonder, why take the risk? Why fly through here anyway?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: Well, at this point, there was not a lot of choice for this flight. It's a routine flight that they do. Now this warning was different than what we saw with MH-17. This warning was down to 24,000 feet. And so, again, you notice that the armaments issue, the fact that there was only man pads and things of smaller, smaller military capability. Now, if you take that and put it where the aircraft is landing or taking off, it's a super high risk. In between this aircraft should have been flying typically at 31,000, 35,000 feet, in that range. So it shouldn't have been anywhere near that. So I don't want to speculate yet about that, other than to let people know that it was there.

It is a risk. It has been a risk. But, again, we talked the same thing over and over about Malaysian 17 as to whether or not it was safe to be above these warning zones and how would we get into the intelligence needed to really determine what it is that's below there as far as militant capabilities go.

BALDWIN: Just brings into question aviation security. We've talked about that. We're going to have a huge conversation about that and how this is really a game-changer potentially for flights all around the world top of the next hour.

Al Goodman, Chad Myers, David Soucie, thank you all very much.

And from one air tragedy to the next. Let me just take you back to the Netherlands. We were watching those 74 hearses carrying those 74 victims of Malaysian Air Flight 17. And Sanjay Gupta, our chief medical correspondent, is there outside of those gates in front of what is clearly a growing memorial for those victims, Sanjay. I mean it is just stunning to me the respect, the beauty, the reverence people in that country have been giving to the victims. It's beautiful.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's incredible, Brooke. And I'm just going to have Simon show you a little bit here just as soon as the procession was over. Literally, Brooke, it's so quiet, first of all. You hear nothing. People are being so respectful coming up, one by one, to pay their respects, to place flowers here near these memorials. We are right outside the Hilversum military base where the hearse did arrive, 40 of these hearse yesterday, 74 today, each with a simple wooden casket in the back and a single white rose on the hood and windshield.

It was very moving, Brooke. Very emotional. Clearly there were family members here, some holding pictures of their family members. It was -- it's hard to describe how somber it is. But again, as you say, Brooke, very respectful as well. Just behind me is where this memorial is. And again, how do you - how do you describe this, Brooke? This is a small country, right? Less than 5 percent in terms of population of the United States. Everyone here affected in some way by this tragedy. And you really get a sense of the collective grief being here today.

BALDWIN: It's the silence and also the spontaneity of these people that are lining these streets. We saw it yesterday. We're watching it today. That's what one of the Dutch TV presenters was telling me on this show. And I'm curious, Sanjay, if you've had a moment to talk to anyone who's chosen on their own time to stand where you are and to pay their respects. Why?

GUPTA: Yes. So many people, in fact, Brooke. And I will say that, you know, if you're here in the Netherlands, it's a more reserved culture, a more conservative culture. People are less -- they don't grieve openly, if you will. They tend to grieve in private. But you do see some of that here.

I was talking to a woman earlier who had been in New York City, in fact, on 9/11 and is here now in the Netherlands around all this -- lives in Hilversum, the city where this military base is located. And she didn't have family members that were aboard that plane, but she certainly knew people, again, as most people did certainly around this area. So she talked a bit about her conversations with other family members of people on the plane. And, again, that reserved nature, that sort of elegant, respectful nature when it comes to these things.

But again I'm just - I'm just - just taking note of just how quiet it is here. These hearses came by. There was some spontaneous applause as the hearse drove by. And then as soon as they went in, people sort of came up quietly, calmly, and are now paying their respects at the memorial here behind me.

BALDWIN: It's the silence that I think speaks volumes. That's why we wanted to sit on it at the top of the show and, sadly, this is not the end of the hearses, nor the coffins -

GUPTA: Yes.

BALDWIN: As the process will continue. And then you have the identification of the bodies, right, that will take months and months and months. Sanjay Gupta for us in Hilversum in the Netherlands. Thank you so much, Sanjay.

GUPTA: You bet.

BALDWIN: Coming up next, our other breaking story this afternoon, a United Nations shelter has been hit in Gaza. It is chaos there as dozens are rushed to the hospital, including, as you can see, children. We'll take you there live.

Plus, as crews look for the remains of more passengers from Flight 17, keep in mind, many are still unaccounted for. We are getting word of a huge discovery at the crash site. All of this as reports indicate the passengers' credit cards have been stolen. Disgusting. You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BALDWIN: Breaking news here on CNN. We are learning that the United States military has proof that the Ukrainian military is being fired upon by Russia from across the border. So from inside of Russia. Let's go to the Pentagon to Barbara Starr, who has a little bit more on this - on this reporting.

And so, Barbara, what exactly do we know about this?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Brooke.

Well, a short time ago, the State Department confirmed for the first time the details that they've been working on behind the scene for the last couple of days. Let me tell you that the State Department spokesman on camera, we'll have that for you shortly, said the following, that the U.S. has evidence that Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine. And then went on to say, there is evidence Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions.

Here is what we know at CNN. We have been reporting for the last two days that Russian forces have moved right up to the border with Ukraine. What we now know here from our sources is that for the last 48 hours, the U.S. has been monitoring multiple Salvos (ph), if you will, by Russian rockets and Russian artillery across the border into Ukraine. There is also potentially, they're trying to figure it all out, additional buildup of Russian forces on that border. Perhaps they tell us additional Russian special forces and something called motorized battalions. This would give the Russians the ability to move around both surreptitiously and much quicker. So this would put additional Russian capability right up against that border.

Look, you know, here's the fundamental question. Why is the Russian military doing this? Why did we need to be worried about it?

BALDWIN: Right.

STARR: Beyond it just being very unpleasant? The problem right now for the U.S. intelligence community is, they do not know exactly what Vladimir Putin might be up to, what he might be ordering his military to do. This firing across the border gives the Russians the ability to attack into Ukraine, claim that they're not doing anything, and they could -- by doing this they can bolster their own pro-Russian forces on that side of the border against Ukrainian military advances. The Ukrainian government has been pushing the rebels back. Moscow, of course, very upset about that.

There is another scenario behind the scenes that the U.S. is looking at. Could this be the beginning of the Russians perhaps putting themselves in place to make a military move across the border? That would be hugely significant.

BALDWIN: Huge.

STARR: Huge. And really destabilizing even more to the region. So right now U.S. intelligence trying to figure out what all of this means. But for the last 48 hours now, we know they are seeing the Russians fire across the border from inside Russia, across to Ukraine, and that makes this situation even more of a hair-trigger.

BALDWIN: Just talking to all these different journalists who have been covering this from eastern Ukraine and the area, just when you think it couldn't get worse, it seems to every single time.

Barbara Starr, keep us posted as far as what else the State Department is saying because these are huge developments in this part of the world. I appreciate your reporting from the Pentagon.

Keeping a close eye on that. Also keeping a close eye on the other breaking story in the Middle East. A United Nations shelter has been hit in Gaza. As you can see, dozens are rushed to the hospital, adults, children. We will take you there live coming up. You're watching CNN's special coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, let's take you to Gaza now, where an explosion has rocked a United Nations school. It's a school that was supposed to be a dedicated safe zone.

A dedicated safe zone housing Palestinian families. This was the scene at the Gaza hospital where the injured and dead were rushed. At least 16 killed and more than 200 injured. The school that was hit was a place where Palestinians were seeking shelter from Israeli attacks. Both sides in this conflict blaming the other. Israel says it's investigating but claims a Hamas rocket may be to blame.

Let's go to Karl Penhaul. He joins us live from Gaza City.

And, Karl, explain this to me. If Israel says this was from Hamas, presumably originating where you are in Gaza, what do they base that on and what is Hamas saying?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's a lot of information to sift through here, Brooke. And let's go bit by bit and I'll tell you what we know and what we don't know.

First of all, this school, it was a U.N.-operated school. It is approximately a mile and a half from the border between Gaza and Israel. It was being used to shelter hundreds of civilians who had fled the surrounding areas because their own homes had been caught in the crossfire in this confrontation. In that part of northeastern Gaza, For the last few days, there had been confrontations between Gaza militants and Israeli forces both from artillery positions and also we know that the Israelis had boots on the ground in that area as well.

Now, what we know since then, the United Nations put out a statement saying that they had formally advised Israeli forces of the position of this school that was being used as a shelter for displaced people. They also tell us that in the course of today, they asked two times for the Israeli military to allow those civilians safe passage out of that school to go somewhere else because that area was simply becoming too dangerous. The United Nations say that that permission was denied. The ICRC, the International Red Cross, say that targets, military targets, were way to close to where civilians were staying. So, again, another indication of the intensity of the fighting across there.

But what we do not know is exactly what caused that explosion. The United Nations spokesman has said that he is not blaming either side. He says they need a full report. The Israeli military, just to be very clear, has said it is also investigating. They don't still know what the cause is. The idea that it could have been a Hamas rocket was simply a suggestion.

We went back to the scene after everybody had cleared out of there. We saw a single detonation point. That detonation point was no more than an inch deep. It had spread fragments of shrapnel around the area from just a few inches off the ground to roof height. It was clearly a big explosion, but not big enough to make a hole in the ground. Those -- that is pretty inconclusive right now. We have to wait for reports from the United Nations. We have to wait for the Israeli military's own investigation. Hamas, of course, at this stage, is blaming Israeli artillery. And eye-witnesses on the ground say that they believe that two or three what they described as shells came into the school, but we have no independent confirmation of that either, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Karl Penhaul, thank you. And given what he's reporting there, and what we've been watching over the last couple of weeks, what about a ceasefire? I mean the call for a ceasefire is increasingly urgent. So let's talk about that now.

But first, let me just show you something. This is a picture you're about to see from space. And it was tweeted by a European astronaut taken from the International Space Station. Along with the picture Alexander Gerst tweeted, "my saddest photo yet." From the ISS we can actually see explosions and rockets flying over Gaza and Israel. As he said, a pretty poignant picture there telling the story what's happening.

Let me bring in our global affairs correspondent Elise Labott.

Elise, as we talk about and hope some for cease fire, we know U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is back in Cairo again today, trying, as he has been, to broker a ceasefire. Obviously what we've just seen, you know, in Gaza, ratchets all of this up. What about progress?

ELISE LABOTT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: That's right, the need for the fighting to stop immediately. And that's what Secretary Kerry is doing. Israel has agreed to a ceasefire. Hamas digging in as (ph) some of its demands are met, particularly easing the economic blockade in Gaza by opening up the borders on the Egyptian and the Israeli side. And he's reaching out to everybody, not just the Egyptians, who have this cease fire proposals, but the foreign ministers of Turkey and Qatar and Jordan, really trying to -- anybody who could put pressure on Hamas to end the fighting.

And basically Hamas is really kind of digging in, as I said. What Secretary Kerry is saying is, let's have an immediate cease of the fighting, all fighting can stop, and then when there's calm, we can have a subsequent set of negotiations, which address some of the horrendous humanitarian situation that's been going on in Gaza, Brooke, and some of the issues on the Israeli side as far as demilitarizing Hamas. But immediately Secretary Kerry's efforts are on getting that fighting to stop.

BALDWIN: Elise Labott, thank you.

And just a note, I mentioned that a human rights official criticized Israel yesterday for its strikes in Gaza. I said "U.S. official." I meant "U.N. official." Just wanted to clarify that.

Coming up next, as crews look for the remains of more passengers from Malaysia Air flight 17, we are getting word of a big, big discovery at the crash site in eastern Ukraine. All of this, as reports indicate, that passengers' credit cards were stolen.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage. Stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)