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U.S. Says Proof Russia Firing into Ukraine; Reports of Looters Using MH-17 Victim Credit Cards; A New Look at MH-17 Destruction; Airline Employees at Risk for PTSD; Interview with Dutch P.M. Mark Rutte

Aired July 24, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Just into us, the U.S. now says it has proof Russian artillery is firing across the Ukrainian border, and that they have evidence that the Russians intend to deliver more powerful rocket launchers to separatist forces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIE HARF, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESWOMAN: We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to the separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And after five days in a field in the middle of a war zone, more indignity for the victims of flight 17. We're hearing reports that looters have been using the credit cards stolen off the passengers from the wreckage.

And one week after the plane was shot down, we are getting a new look at the destruction and devastation left behind. These images provided to us just a short time ago by the European organization that's monitoring the crash scene. And so you are now looking at what may be the largest intact piece of the plane that investigators have spotted thus far.

I can also tell you today that they have found more human remains. Back in the Netherlands, where most of these victims are from, just about 200 of the 298, today all these hearses, 74 -- 74 more coffins arriving at the forensics lab. But Dutch officials say identifying the remains could take months.

CNN's Sara Sidner is live for us in Kiev, capital of Ukraine.

And, Sara, back to the crash site. And it's disgusting enough to think that there are people that have looted these passengers' credit cards. You have some Australian families saying they were calling their loved ones' cell phones in the days after the crash, and people were answering the phones and not speaking English. Are you hearing that?

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, we haven't gotten that directly from those family members of the passengers. But we can tell you, there have been other crashes. We were talking about that today where similar things have happened, where things have been stolen. You also heard, when you heard from some of the officials talking about this, people stealing a ring, a wedding ring off of the finger of one of the victims. When you think about that in terms of what that would do to the family, and just simple humanity, it seems outrageous that this could happen on such a horrifying scene. But it does and it can. And it's not the first time that we have seen these kinds of actions, especially in places that are in duress, in conflict or extremely impoverished -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: I think outrageous is the perfect word for the idea of all of this.

Sara Sidner, thank you, in Kiev.

And the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 was a double dose of tragedy for the airlines' workers coming just months after the disappearance of Malaysian flight 370. We talk a lot about post traumatic stress disorder, PTSD, when it comes to our men and women in uniform. But what about airline workers, particularly flight attendants, are they at risk for PTSD?

Let me bring in Professor Jeffrey Lating, from the psychology Department at Loyola University, Maryland.

So, Professor, welcome to you.

And you know, we wanted to talk to you, because you studied how flight attendants copied after the tragedy of 9/11 and here you have image 370, image 17, not to mention the crash off Taiwan yesterday, this crash in Africa today. I mean, I know flight attendants are total pros, but this has to impact them.

JEFFREY LATING, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, LOYOLA UNIVERSITY, MARYLAND: Yeah, it certainly is something that we didn't realize the work that we did 10 years ago would have an impact now.

BALDWIN: What did you find?

LATING: Well, part of what we found is the level of improbable post traumatic stress disorder among American Airlines flight attendants -- that was the flight attendants we studied. And as you recall, the American Airlines flight attendants were particularly impacted. The flight that hit the north tower was an American Airlines flight. The flight that hit the Pentagon was an American Airlines flight. And if you remember, Brooke, there was the incident that happened in November, on November 12th, with flight 587 that left from New York heading to Santa Domingo. That was an American Airlines flight, we thought was happening again. Then there was flight 63, that had the shoe bomber that happened in December. So over a couple month period of time, the American Airlines flight attendants in particular had had a real challenging and difficult time. And what we found is that the level and the rate of probable post traumatic stress disorder was around 18 percent.

BALDWIN: So you have these accumulation of incidents around that point in time and different accumulation of tragedies in the air, you know, right now. And I have to imagine, and in reading some of your research, it's one thing for a plane to go down because of mechanical error, but it's quite another for a plane to be taken down by terrorists, which has to be even more difficult for flight attendants right now.

LATING: Yes. And particularly for the American Airline flight attendants. Part of what we heard anecdotally is that they had felt that they were potentially, you know, asked to be on the potential weapon of mass destruction. So you can certainly imagine what a difference and how that could impact them.

BALDWIN: And oftentimes, planes are targets just to that point of being on this sort of flying missile, wherever this missile lands. And then when you look at Malaysia Air, the double tragedies in the last couple of months. How do you think, Professor, this should be addressed, if it should be addressed by the airline?

LATING: Well, I think that airlines, I'm sure, in the past decade have worked really hard to try to work on ways to help, whether that's pre-incident preparation as well as what happens afterwards. But, you know, one of the things that we like to be able to do and one of the reasons we did our research is to be able to ask those questions. Prior to the work that we had done, we were not familiar with any work that had been done with airlines before. And so we would encourage people to do this type of work, whether it's with, you know, Malaysia Air, the Algeria Air now, whatever it may be, to try to help to see what we can do to learn more.

BALDWIN: As you pointed out in your research, it's one thing to be under distress, there is another when it comes to dysfunction.

Professor Lating, from Loyola University, Maryland, thank you so much for joining me as we talk about these air tragedies

Coming up, we have an interview that Anderson Cooper will conduct with the prime minister, the Dutch prime minister, as we watch these coffins today, 74. Yesterday it was 40. The victims from this tragedy arriving in Hilversum in the Netherlands to applause and to silence. Anderson's interview with the Dutch P.M., coming up next.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: In case you're just joining us, we have been reporting breaking news out of the part of the world, eastern Ukraine along the border with Russia. This is what we are getting from the U.S. State Department. Let me quote the spokesperson: "We have new evidence the Russians tend to deliver heavier and more powerful rocket launchers to the Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery to attack Ukrainian military positions."

So those are two big developments in this part of the world.

Let me bring in Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, our CNN military analyst; and David Gergen, CNN senior political analyst and former presidential adviser.

And welcome to both of you.

Colonel, just straight to you, as far as what is going on here, what's your read?

LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, if you look at the range of Russian artillery, it puts this area between Donetsk and the border right in ranges where those two S.U.-25s were shot down yesterday. This is where the fighting is ongoing.

Now, the fact that the Russians are going to supply better equipment, that's one thing, but when you've got fire support from the Russian side of the border into the Ukraine, that's another matter. Now you're getting yourself directly involved. I'm assuming that these are Russian units firing into Ukraine. It could be pro-Russian separatists operating from Russian. But I'm assuming Russian artillery. This brings us to a different level.

BALDWIN: It potentially is huge. Barbara Starr making the point to me, you know, what would this mean on a bigger scale as far as a military move, right, from Russia?

But let me just get to that in a second. Back to your point about if this is Russians firing from within Russia, would these calls have to come directly from the Kremlin? Would this be coming from Vladimir Putin?

FRANCONA: Oh, this has got to come pretty far up. You don't fire from your territory into another state without your own government either providing direct orders, or at least agreeing to what you want to do, if you're the local commander.

BALDWIN: David Gergen, here we have, first, even before MH-17 was shot down, there was a Ukrainian cargo plane and military jet both taken down, then MH-17. And as the colonel just mentioned, two different military jets taken down reportedly yesterday, and according to reports, from just inside of Russia. Is this Russia just refusing to back down?

DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Not only refusing to back down, it's becoming more aggressive.

I totally agree with the colonel. There is a huge difference between having a conflict within a nation that has a civil war-kind of quality and a conflict between two nations. Traditionally, the conflict between two nations escalates it sharply within international law. So that this is a situation now where the United States and others should take it to the United Nations and have a Security Council act on this to stop it. And we may wind up with some troops in there before this is over, international troops, who are going to come in and separate.

I must say, it also ought to get the Europeans off their duffs to do something --

(CROSSTALK)

GERGEN: -- much, much more serious and embrace the economic sanctions they have been fiddling around with, tiptoeing around. This is very serious when you have one nation firing rockets from within its territory against another nation.

BALDWIN: It's exactly what Mikheil Saakashvili told me the other day, former president of Georgia, who directly waged war with Vladimir Putin.

Gentlemen, David Gergen and Colonel Rick Francona, thank you so much for the military side and the developments around eastern Ukraine and Russia.

But for more on the victims and just the beautiful ceremonies that we have seen as the victims have been brought to the Netherlands, let me go to New York to Anderson Cooper -- Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Brooke, thanks very much.

And a day in which we have seen more victims from flight MH-17 returning to the Netherlands, the first part of a journey returning home.

I'm joined now by the prime minister of the Netherlands, Mark Rutte.

Mr. Prime Minister, I appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

The Netherlands has done an extraordinary job of welcoming the first victims of this crash back with dignity and with honor and with respect. You have said that something fundamental changed last Thursday when this plane was shot down. What has changed?

MARK RUTTE, PRIME MINISTER OF THE NETHERLANDS: Well, as you can understand, we are a nation in mourning. The loss of 194 of my countrymen, in total 298 in the plane, has been an earth-breaking and shattering experience for the whole country. And it was extremely important yesterday as a nation to come together to stand shoulder-by- shoulder and to try to assess and give a place to everything which happened since last Thursday.

BALDWIN: The beauty of what you did yesterday and today was in stark contrast, obviously, to the horror that we witnessed in eastern Ukraine, not just in the downing of this plane, but in the treatment of your citizens and citizens from all around the world for the last several days. There may be as many as 100 people still left at the crash site. I spoke to an OSCE monitor today, who is at the crash site to with some Malaysians and Australian investigators. He found human remains. It appears no one right now is doing anything systematically to find all the victims still laying out there and to bring them back one week since the crash. Is this acceptable to you? RUTTE: No, that is why we will increase our effort to bring home all

the victims of this disaster. We will send into the crash site a large number of people from the Netherlands, experts, forensic experts, people from the police who are trained to do -- to deal with this type of work and these issues. They will start tomorrow. And we will have in total around 50 people working there from Sunday, onwards.

BALDWIN: Because, as of now, your investigators have been stuck in Kiev. They haven't been given access to the site. So are you now saying that tomorrow, starting tomorrow, you absolutely will have access to the sites?

RUTTE: We have been at the crash site. The last two days, we have concentrated our efforts in Kharkov from where the planes left flying into the Netherlands with the first 40 coffins yesterday and 74 coffins today. So we had to put priority there. From tomorrow onwards, we will again rebuild our capacity in the field at the crash site to recovery the remaining remains and, as much as possible, their personal belongings.

BALDWIN: Would the Netherlands be willing to send a military force either on their own or with Australia or with other nations to try to secure the crash site? Is that going to be necessary? And would you support that?

RUTTE: Well, we are currently following a two-track approach. First of all, as I said, we will increase our effort at the crash site within the current context, within the current parameters. We will also look into various options we see, which would help to make the place a bit more secure, a bit safer to do the job which is needed to be done. We will study this in the next 24 to 48 hours, and come up with conclusions as soon as possible. But we won't wait for that. And that's why we will increase our efforts from tomorrow, onwards.

BALDWIN: On Saturday, you said that Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, must act to allow access to the crash site. Do you believe he has done all he can?

RUTTE: I have been on the phone now for six times. It's always difficult to assess why things have been moving a bit further and a bit more swiftly than at the start of the crash investigation and the recovery of the victims. It started awfully slow. The pictures were heartbreaking for the relatives and families and for the whole nation, for the whole country to see the people lying there, the bodies lying there in the fields, at 35 degrees Celsius, unbearable. Luckily, since Monday night, the train which is carrying 203 body bags, has been moving into Ukrainian territory. And that's why we were able to start the airlift yesterday. But still, as you said, I hope not sure there are 100 bodies there. We don't know. 203 body bags doesn't mean we have 203 people back home. It might be more, it might be less. But it is absolutely sure, we are actually convinced, are still remains which we want to recover, which we want to bring back to the Netherlands.

BALDWIN: The question, though, is, in your opinion, has Vladimir Putin done enough? Many in your country, as you know, want you to take a tougher stand against Russia. They are your third-largest trading partner. A, has Vladimir Putin done enough to grant access to the site, and what exactly do you want to see in terms of sanctions? What would you support?

RUTTE: The Netherlands is supporting sanctions. We have always, in the European Union, pleaded for sanctions, because we feel and we believe that arming the separatists is wrong. It's wrong policy is helping to destabilize the region. Ukraine is a sovereign country. And the integrity of Ukraine is part of our interest. So that's why we have been pushing for sanctions always. And we have always been instrumental in the European Union to come to a common position. As you know, it is not one country, Europe. We have 28 member states. So it takes sometimes a bit more time to get to an agreement. But once we get there, we are very firm in the implementation.

BALDWIN: Do you have any doubt that Vladimir Putin has armed and backed these pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine? There is now a report we just aired on CNN saying there is a belief that Russia is actually firing from Russian territory into eastern Ukraine.

RUTTE: I want to get to the bottom of this. That's why I, first of all, want to bring back our people. At the same time, it is extremely important to find out what happened, and then to be able to bring to justice those who did it. And I'm extremely committed to also bring about these two remaining -- next to bringing back our people -- these two other priorities we have, to find out what happened and to bring to justice those who did. I don't believe I am furthering the process or helping the process by pointing my finger. I want to base this on evidence from our intelligence community. We are working very closely together with the American and other communities. And the support from President Obama and the fact that he visited our embassy in Washington and was writing in a book of condolence, has been a very moving -- has been a very moving experience for the Netherlands, and we have highly valued the fact that he did.

BALDWIN: Mr. Prime minister, finally, what is your promise to the families of the victims of this crash?

RUTTE: One, that we will do everything in our power to bring back our people, to bring back their loved ones. Secondly, that we want to get to the bottom of this. We want to know what has happened, who has done this. And, thirdly, I will not rest before I have done everything I have in my power to bring those perpetrators to justice.

BALDWIN: Prime Minister Mark Rutte, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

I want to toss it back now to Brooke Baldwin.

BALDWIN: All right, Anderson, thank you very much, with that interview with the prime minister there in the Netherlands, the Dutch P.M. from The Hague.

So as we continue to follow this story out of Ukraine, and multiple others, let's just begin with the disturbing U.S. intelligence, just to underline the point Anderson was making in asking the Dutch prime minister about the fighting happening right now in eastern Ukraine. And keep in mind, all of this is coming from the U.S. specifically, evidence from the State Department. Two big developments here. Number one, they believe that Russia is firing heavy artillery across the Ukrainian border. OK, so from within Russia there into eastern Ukraine. And they are also saying that they believe Russians intend to deliver heavier rocket launchers to pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine. This is all just a week after flight 17 was shot down. OK? So you have these two points, artillery fire coming in from Russia into Ukraine, and then you have the evidence of additional sophisticated rocket launchers coming into the pro-Russian rebels into Ukraine. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARF: We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to the separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russia to attack Ukrainian military positions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And now, today, we have a new look at the destruction and devastation left behind by the shoot-down of Malaysia Air flight 17. These are images given to us just a short time ago by the European organization. It's monitoring the crash scene. You're looking at actually what may be the largest intact piece of MH-17.