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Journalist: I Slept Next To The Wreckage Of MH17; U.N. Shelter In Gaza Hit, 16 Dead; U.S.: We Have Proof Russians Firing Into Ukraine; Arizona Execution Lasts Nearly Two Hours

Aired July 24, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: It is not a place for a foreign journalist to sleep out in the open near the wreckage of this downed plane and the remains of this fellow countrymen. But that is precisely what happened to my next guest.

He is Dutch journalist Olaf Koens. He joins me now from Donetsk, Ukraine.

Olaf, welcome.

OLAF KOENS, DUTCH JOURNALIST: Thank you, Brooke. Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: I read your piece in "The New Republic" where you say you have been covering this crisis in Ukraine since day one.

So we will get your thoughts on the politics and the crisis itself in a minute, but, you know, first, just the headline of your piece, Olaf, "I Slept Next to the Wreckage of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17."

Why?

KOENS: Yes, that's right. We arrived at the scene on Friday very late. It was, if I remember correctly, around 9:00. It was dark already. There were lots of rebels there. First they held us at gunpoint and at one point, they fled. They panicked, precisely. There was a radio saying that Ukrainian tanks are moving in, that's what they claimed so they ran off.

Then our driver, who took us all the way for already nine hours, he got really tired and said guys, I'm leaving, as well, if even these rebels are leaving. So it was me, two of my colleagues and we were stuck with the rescue workers, the rescue workers, all local guys, very friendly. Obviously very tough job.

They invited us over to stay in their tents they put up to drink some of the moonshine they had, and sit and talk. So that's what we did. Slept there during the night. That was pretty scary, lots of artillery fire in the background and even more scary to wake up the next morning.

BALDWIN: Not all friendly, though, Olaf. You write that when you arrived at the site itself, and waved your Dutch passport and this guy had a grenade with a ring around his finger. You said, quote, "Over 190 of my co-patriots died in the crash, you might have the decency to wave me through, I said. He looked back at me, I don't give a bleep, he said.

The rebel check points weren't any better. You Dutch? You want to know what happened to the plane, a rebel in the stronghold of the area asked me. I tell you, it fell out of the sky, just like that. Bleep happens. Bleep happens? I don't think so.

KOENS: Yes. That's what they said. Pretty horrible, indeed, and the weird thing is actually -- didn't really matter, which checkpoint you were at, whether it was the Ukrainian Army, the irregulars or the rebels, all pretty rude. The guy with the hand grenades in his hand, checking our documents, was actually the Ukrainian Army, pretty weird way of inspecting documents, even for a pretty regular army.

And then, of course, the rebels who went through the rebel stronghold on the way there, and they detained us for a while. Pretty tricky ride. We were glad we made it, it was really strange to be at the scene. And, again, yes, waking up was the most difficult part, because then it was light and then, you know, we would see all the bodies, all the debris, all the belongings and everything.

BALDWIN: Another layer to the story. I actually had you in mind reporting on this breaking news. I don't know if you've seen the reports. This is from the U.S. State Department that Russian's heavy artillery fire is coming into Ukraine from Russia. And B., they are getting ready to move some heavy artillery, some multiple rocket launchers into Ukraine. And to your point in your piece, having covered this from day one, just when you think it can't get any worse, it does.

KOENS: Yes, it does. That's right. We don't know what's happening next. Frankly, reports about the Russian Army massing on the border and moving in, they have been coming for a long, long time now. When this all started, we even joked with colleagues saying, you know, Russia is moving in thousands of rumors into this area. The places -- it's pretty tense right now.

Everybody is thinking something, everybody has heard something. The propaganda on both sides is really spinning out of control. You never know really what's next. There is a real feeling now that the enormous threat is the size and the enormous loss of life that happened at the crash of Flight 17 of Malaysian Airlines. But this is not it. We're still in a war zone here. The Ukrainian Army and the rebels here are still finding it out. And for both of them, this is just a minor incident.

BALDWIN: Minor? Olaf Koens, great reporting. Stay safe over there please. We'll stay in close contact with you.

Let's turn to our breaking story this afternoon. A disturbing scene, to say the least, in the Middle East. A United Nations school sheltering victims of the war between Israel and Hamas has been hit. More than a dozen dead. Even more injured and both Israel and Hamas are blaming each other. We are live from both sides with the battle lines. Our own Wolf Blitzer joins me next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin. In Gaza, the death toll rises, following explosions at a shelter run by the United Nations, a shelter that housed Palestinian families seeking a refuge from the fighting. By last count, at least 16 killed. Sixteen killed, more than 200 injured. What hit the shelter, not immediately clear.

But each side blames the other. All of this comes as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry travels across the region, trying to work out a deal to end the bloodshed. And it falls on the 17th day of this latest round of violence between Israel and Hamas.

We have Wolf Blitzer standing by for us. He is live in Jerusalem and Karl Penhaul have covering the latest violence for us from Gaza City. So Karl, let me just begin with you since this happened in Gaza. Again, Israel says it is investigating how this school was attacked.

But first the U.N. said it came from Israel. Then it backed away from that saying it couldn't be sure. Israel saying maybe it came from Hamas. What are you seeing and hearing?

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think we have to be very precise and very concise here. It is too easy to get caught up in the confusion, too easy to get caught up in conflicting versions from the warring sides. The United Nations in its initial three tweets reported there has been multiple bed in its initial tweets. It also said it had given the precise coordinates of this U.N. school to the Israeli military.

It then went on to say that the U.N. had requested on two occasions during the day permission to Israel to allow those civilians shelter at that school, to leave and said that permission was denied. However, whatever the inferences were made from those initial three tweets, at no stage did the United Nations say that this was caused directly by Israel.

We do know, and the United Nations has already said, that in that area of the past few days, there has been intense fighting between Hamas and the Israeli military. That school is only about a mile and a half from the border. But there already are Israeli soldiers on this side of the border, as well.

What we also know is that in the last few days, the United Nations has accused both the warring sides of violations of the rules of war. We have heard the United Nations say that on two other occasions in the past three days, the Israeli military have fired on two other schools being used as shelter.

At the same time, the U.N. has said that Hamas has stored rockets in two U.N. schools in other parts of the Gaza Strip. Violations by both sides. Added to that, we then went to the school, we went to the school after it had been evacuated to see what signs we could see of what had happened. Some of the -- some of the civilians at the time had said that possibly they had heard two or three shells, what they described as shells coming into the area. When we got to the site, we simply saw in the courtyard a single detonation point. That detonation point was not deep. It was no deeper than about one inch at its deepest point.

It was a detonation that clearly cast a lot of fragmentation, a lot of shrapnel ranging from a few inches high right up to the rooftop. There was no evidence of any rocket parts being in the school, because one of the versions from the IDF is that possibly this was caused by misfiring Hamas rocket.

Nor did we see any fragments that appear to come from commercially made military grade ammunitions. There is a lot we don't know and really this is why the IDF, the Israeli military, says it is investigating. The U.N. says it needs a full report. Right now, Hamas is squarely blaming the Israelis -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: To your point, it is essential to be precise, but given everything you just said, we don't know. So Karl is in Gaza City for us. Wolf, you are in Israel. You talked to a member of the Palestinian Parliament from the West Bank. How did he respond when you told him that Israel says the attack on the school may have been from Hamas?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST, "THE SITUATION ROOM": Yes, I just want to be precise because Karl was very precise in his report as well. What the Israelis, what the IDF says and Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, the spokesman, for the Israel Defense Forces, and when I spoke to the finance minister of Israel, a member of the security cabinet as well, they were both very precise in the sense, they want to investigate.

They're not sure what happened. They do raise the possibility, though, that it could have been an errant Hamas missile that -- or rocket that may have been launched at Israel, but just fell short and landed in this area where this United Nations school is where so many Palestinians have sought shelter.

What Dr. Mustafa Bargodi, he flatly said that was a lie. He directly blamed Israeli, directly blamed the IDF for attacking this school and he said that any of these excuses the Israelis make are simply lies. He's a Palestinian parliamentarian. The Israelis say they want to investigate and see what's going on and will not draw hard and fast conclusions.

What they do say, if it were an Israeli attack, an Israeli shell or missile or whatever, they'll -- it could have been a mistake. They don't directly attack United Nations schools. They go after Hamas targets.

But in warfare, there is always the possibility of mistakes. There is always a possibility of civilian casualties. And we certainly know there have been a lot of civilian casualties in Gaza over these past, what, nearly three weeks.

BALDWIN: Wolf Blitzer, we'll be watching for you again, special two- hour edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM" live there covering both sides of this conflict, 5:00 Eastern here on CNN. Wolf, thank you. Karl Penhaul, thank you so much.

Coming up here, we're following the breaking news out of the U.S., specifically from the State Department, two big developments to report along the Ukraine-Russia border. One, they say Russia is firing artillery into Ukraine and two, they are getting ready to bring multiple rocket launchers from Russia into Ukraine, to the pro-Russian separatists. What is the bigger picture? We're going to talk to a former U.S. ambassador, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Right now, Russia is reportedly firing on Ukrainian military sites. U.S. intelligence also suggesting that Moscow is about to boost its supply of weaponry to pro-Russian rebels, and that includes the delivery of more powerful rocket launchers. This, despite denials from Russian president, Vladimir Putin, that Russia had any involvement into flying the rocket launcher that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

So now today, Ukraine's fragile government gone. After just a few months in office, now what? Could Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, make a bold move to snatch more of Ukraine? Let me bring in former U.S. ambassador to Russia, James Collins. Mr. Ambassador, welcome.

JAMES COLLINS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA: Good to be with you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Let me just first ask you to react to this news, specifically from the State Department, on those two developments. With regard to Russia and Eastern Ukraine. It seems to me instead of deescalating, this is increasingly aggressive from Vladimir Putin.

COLLINS: Well, Brooke, I think the great problem we have is that escalation is happening. And I think the most tragic manifestation of it was the downing of the airplane. But it continues to grow and the problem seems to be, it's all going without any idea of how to bring it to a conclusion.

BALDWIN: One suggestion, being sanctions. When you look at the E.U. sanctions, many people say they're not tough enough. You add to that, France sort of -- forgive me, but sticking a middle finger at U.S. and Britain, saying, we have this agreement to sell arms to Russia, we're still going to deliver this warship in October and the French Navy is already training Russian sailors on how to use it. So then what?

COLLINS: Well, I think we have to look at it and simply understand that escalation is going on, on all sides. It's going on, on the battlefield. It's going on in diplomatic back and forth or tit for tat statements. So it's going on in, you know, the sanctions war. Now, the problem here is that escalation is pretty easy.

But unless there is some purpose to it, you have to ask yourself, what is the point? How are we going to bring this to an end? And here I think the challenge is no one seems to know how to make the escalation come to a conclusion, which brings us to a negotiation, and ultimately a political settlement.

BALDWIN: Well, no one can crawl into the mind of Vladimir Putin. He seems to say one thing, but clearly do another. I was talking to the former president of Georgia this week. He went to war with Putin six years ago. We had this exchange. Roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: I just want to ask about Putin, the man. He's kind of a mystery to a lot of people, Mr. President. You famously said that Vladimir Putin wanted you caged or killed.

MIKHEIL SAAKASHVILI, PRESIDENT OF GEORGIA, 2004-2013: He wanted to hang me by certain balls.

BALDWIN: You could go there.

SAAKASHVILI: I said it, but actually he said it many times publicly. But the reality is, he likes to intimidate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: That was Mikheil Saakashvili. What is Vladimir Putin the man like, Mr. Ambassador? We can't crawl into his head. What do you think he's doing behind the scenes?

COLLINS: I think it's very difficult to get into his mind for me just as it is for anyone else. I think Russian positions have been fairly clear that at least at a minimum, their pursuit of a political agenda is prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, prevent it from what they would say is going to the west.

Prevent it from in some sense severing itself from Russia. It may or may not be any justifiable fear or any kind of goal that has any justification. But it nonetheless is the one that seems to be in the mind of the Russian people and the Russian leadership.

On our side, you know, we have exactly the opposite view in the sense that Ukraine should have its own decision about where it's going to shape its future, who have at its allies, who will join in terms of its economic model. The problem is right now, this has devolved not into a political argument, but one to fighting on the battlefield.

The real first challenge is to get the escalation stopped and then get some kind of a political process both within Ukraine, which will resolve differences between Ukrainians and a larger negotiation, which will bring Russia into contact and diplomatic negotiations with the Europeans and the Americans.

BALDWIN: It is not only devolving, 298 people were killed and it continues to escalate. Ambassador James Collins, thank you for joining me from Washington, D.C.

COLLINS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Now down this two hours. That's how long it took this man to be, executed last night in Arizona for killing his ex-girlfriend and her father. While many are talking and focusing today about another botched execution, I want you to listen to this witness to his death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn't yell out once. He smiled and laughed at us and then went to sleep. So all you people that think these drugs are bad, the hell with you guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The hell with you guys. That man not only witnessed the execution it was his wife's sister and father who were murdered. They join me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: The execution of a convicted murderer in Arizona has ignited a firestorm over the kinds of drugs used in lethal injections. Joseph Woods was given a new lethal drug cocktail that took much longer to work than expected, two hours passed before he died yesterday. What happened during that time according to some witnesses was pretty tough to watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TROY HAYDEN, MEDIA WITNESS: Joe Wood is dead, but it took him two hours to die and to watch a man lay there for one hour and 40 minutes gulping air, I can liken it to if you catch a fish and throw it on the shore, the way the fish opens and closes his mouth. The two drugs worked. He eventually died. I can't imagine this is what the criminal justice hoped for when they came up with this new drug protocol.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So this execution set off a round of criticism on both sides of the death penalty debate. Was this cruel and unusual punishment? I want to bring in Jean Brown, the daughter and sister of Wood's victims. She attended last night's execution as well as her husband, Richard, who joins me as well.

So Jean and Richard, welcome to both of you. I am sorry for your loss. It's so important to make sure we hear your side of the story today and I'd like to first begin with this man's crime. Jean, can you tell me what he did?

JEANNE BROWN, DAUGHTER AND SISTER OF MURDER VICTIMS: He killed my sister, my older sister, and my father, August 7th of 1989.

BALDWIN: And Sir, would you like to respond, as well?

RICHARD BROWN, IN-LAW OF MURDER VICTIMS: Yes. Yes, I was there at the shop at the time and that's what he did. He killed both of them, cold-blooded. BALDWIN: Killed both of them cold-blooded. He was killed last night. It took two hours. A lot of the focus since then has been, like I mentioned potentially the cruel and unusual way in which he was killed, but you say who cares.

RICHARD BROWN: I say you need to look at the victims, not the guy that did it. It was his choice to make that decision to do what he did that day. It was the state's choice to do that, to carry out the death penalty, which is what he got for doing that. I say he didn't suffer at all. He went to sleep. He was snoring.

BALDWIN: He was snoring?

RICHARD BROWN: They say he was gulping for air. They would turn the mic on and he was snoring. If anybody's done sleep deposition, they would see exactly what he was doing. All these other witnesses that said he was gulping are trying to make it out to look worse than what it was. Was it supposed to take that long? I don't know. I've never been to one.

Hopefully, I never have to go to another one. But the state carried out what they were told to do. As far as the governor saying that they're going to do an investigation, well, I hope they do and I hope it comes out right because he was not suffering. He went to sleep.

BALDWIN: Jeanne, how did you feel last night sitting there last night watching that?

JEANNE BROWN: I felt nothing compared to the day that he killed my dad and sister. This was nothing. I've lived with this for 25 years. And just because of the execution that occurred yesterday afternoon, my life still has to go on. My husband's life, my family's life. It does not -- I still have to live with it for the rest of my life without having a father without having an older sister to look up to. I never had that.

This happened when I was 18 years old, and I had to grow up overnight, and it's been very hard. It's been a challenge, 25 years' worth of paperwork building up from the attorneys and reading books and books and books on his appeal after appeal after appeal up to the last minute before execution. And what I saw yesterday was nothing compared to having to look at my older sister and father laying in the morgue and looking at their corpses. It was difficult. So yesterday was nothing.

BALDWIN: I cannot begin to imagine what that felt like 25 years ago or what it felt like last night. I hope never to you know, Richard, you alluded to this, and this is the point from the ACLU on the say the flip side. It is time for states still using lethal injection to admit that this experiment with unreliable drugs is a failure. Final thought from both of you, just 20 seconds, react to that for me.

RICHARD BROWN: I think it wasn't a failure. They did what they were supposed to do. It was the dealt penalty. He did die. He died peacefully compared to how they died. Go ahead. JEANNE BROWN: There was no struggling. There was no gasping. There was nothing. They gave him the first injection and he went to sleep. And that was it.

BALDWIN: I am so sorry for your loss once again, Jeanne Brown and Richard Brown joining me there. Appreciate it and I'll see you tomorrow. I'm Brooke Baldwin. Let's go to Washington. "THE LEAD" with Jake starts now.