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Air Algerie Jet "Disintegrated"; Hillary Clinton Weighs in on Crisis in Middle East; Israel Rejects Cease-Fire Proposal.

Aired July 25, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

AL GOODMAN, CNN MADRID BUREAU CHIEF: As to what caused this crash, authorities have said, since Thursday, the pilot, shortly into the overnight flight, radioed in and said he was going to have to change course because of severe weather. There are severe thunderstorms in that area at this time but they haven't gotten any closer. Some aides to the French president have sort of ruled out it was a missile because it was a compact area. But the president is not going that far -- Brooke?

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Still early in the investigation. What about the victims, Al? Where are the remains being taken?

GOODMAN: The largest contingent of French are going to Paris. Before they get there, family members are being brought to Paris. They announced that. 15 nationalities were on board. You've seen incredible effort between Africa, Europe, coming in, trying to get together with France, Algeria, Mali. Interpol, offering to help out. A huge effort in Madrid where the flight crew is from. Two experienced pilots. The charter company that had the plane operating for the Algerian Airline, a lot of shock and consternation here -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Understandably, so.

Al Goodman, for us in Madrid. Al, thank you very much.

Again, a reminder, we are waiting for U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. He is expected to address cease-fire talks between Israel and Hamas. And CNN has confirmed Israel has rejected Secretary Kerry's proposal. Live pictures from Cairo where we're watching for Secretary Kerry to appear behind the podium.

Also ahead, Fareed Zakaria just interviewed Hillary Clinton and she weighed in on the crisis in the Middle East. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: These are live pictures from Cairo in Egypt. We are waiting to hear and see the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. He is in this part of the world, trying to help broker a cease-fire. They're hoping for a week-long humanitarian cease-fire that would have begun Sunday between Hamas and Israel.

As we told you at the top of the hour, Wolf Blitzer has been in this region. He got word that the Israeli cabinet unanimously rejected this week-long proposal. They want modifications. That said, we watch and wait to hear how Secretary Kerry addresses what is a setback.

As we wait for him, let me bring in Fareed Zakaria, host of "Fareed Zakaria, GPS."

Fareed, if I can, off the top, get you to react to the news, cease-fire rejected.

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA, GPS: It is unfortunate, but the Israeli cabinet and this Israeli prime minister have really decided that what they want to do is to take this opportunity to destroy the tunnels that Hamas has built, destroy a lot of the rockets that they have accumulated, which is understandable. Israel faces a significant and real threat from it all. But we have seen this movie before.

BALDWIN: We have.

ZAKARIA: You do this, you get rid of them. And if everything else stays the same, Hamas or the successor will, in some way or the other, accumulate this kind of thing in the next few years. This is not high-tech stuff. It is fairly easy to do over time. And we'll be back a year from now, two years from now. It's unfortunate, as I say. I think a lot of innocent people are suffering. And it would have been I think useful to have that cease-fire just to also have a time to think about not just the tactics of this. The tactics -- we understand, Israel is under rocket fire, it is responding, it has the right to do so, but what's the strategy here? What is the way in which you get this political problem to a situation where you don't have to keep going in and invading and occupying Gaza every year or two.

BALDWIN: As we await the current U.S. secretary of state, you just sat down with the last one, Hillary Clinton. You asked her to respond to the uprising violence between both Hamas and Israel. This is what she told you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAKARIA: The U.N. commissioner, high commissioner for human rights says that Israel may have committed war crimes in Gaza, essentially talking about the fact, I think, 75 percent of the casualties have been civilians. Do you think the Israelis have used excessive force?

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, I don't agree with that assessment about alleging war crimes. I think that the Israelis are in a very difficult position. Hamas, we know embeds missiles, embeds command-and-control units in civilian areas. Now, some of that is just the geography. It is a very small area, densely populated. But some of that is a deliberate choice by Hamas. And I believe that between the warnings that Israelis give, sometimes as far ahead as four hours so people could be moved, and also the Israelis' deliberate efforts to avoid civilian casualties, I do not think that's an accurate or fair characterization of what the Israelis are trying to do.

Now, having said that, too many people have died and too many of them are clearly innocent civilians, even children. The Israelis know that.

ZAKARIA: Martin Indyk has just resigned as the kind of Sherpa of the peace process. He say, the immediate trigger, as he says -- and there are many -- was the fact that Palestinians looked at the Israeli continued settlement activity and said, these guys are not serious, we are never going to be able to get a state, look at what they're doing.

CLINTON: This is my biggest complaint with the Israeli government. I am a strong supporter of Israel and strong supporter of their right to defend themselves, but the continuing settlements, which have been denounced by successive American administrations on both sides of the aisle, are clearly a terrible signal to send, if at the same time you claim you're looking for a two-state solution.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Just quickly, Fareed, I want your reaction to that. But we are now looking at live pictures. John Kerry on the left side of the screen. As soon as we can hear him and he starts to make a statement, we will take that live.

Meantime, Hillary Clinton, what was your take on her response?

ZAKARIA: You could see she was very strongly supportive of Israel, very, very intelligent balanced response. And at the end, I think she talked --

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Sorry, Fareed.

ZAKARIA: Sure.

BALDWIN: Pause. Let's listen.

Oh, and it is frozen.

My apologies.

As we work the signal, Fareed Zakaria, you have the floor.

ZAKARIA: No problem.

Well, it is a position she has taken as she points out that President Obama has taken in some ways, George W. Bush took certainly, his father took, which was that continued settlement activity by the Israeli government, particularly outside of the well-defined areas where there are already settlements, is a terrible signal to send the Palestinians. It makes the Palestinians wonder, are they ever get a state. She pointed out that this is a major obstacle to a two-state solution and to peace. Obviously, there are others. She was very clear and I thought more tough and direct about it than I've heard her before. She said this is my main problem with this Israeli government.

BALDWIN: Earlier this week, Madeleine Albright was talking to Wolf Blitzer, and the word she used describing Israel was "overdoing," that they were overdoing it, which made headlines. Is that fair?

ZAKARIA: Look, I think it is a tough call. And if we were in that situation, it is difficult to know how we would react. The Israeli view is they pay about the same price in terms of all of us condemning them, if they do 70 percent of the job or if they do 95 percent of the job. They might as well do 95 percent of the job. As I said, a tactical level, I get it. If that were coupled with a long- term strategy to actually get to a two-state solution, to get serious about negotiations, I would say, fine, get rid of the tunnels, get rid of all the rockets. In the absence of that, it feels like these tunnels will get rebuilt. You have four million people that have neither a vote nor their own state, and they're going to eventually become more and more extreme. You know, I think we thought we got a lid on this, and what we realized was, under the lid, there is a lot of stuff boiling. So my problem is more with that lack of long-term plan toward a two-state solution, not the short-term strategy.

BALDWIN: Fareed Zakaria, do me a favor and stand by.

We are standing by to get that signal up and running and crystal clear so we can hear the news, the reaction from the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry now that we know Israel officially rejected this cease-fire.

Quick break. Breaking news on the other side of this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As promised, breaking news out of the Middle East. U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry speaking in Cairo moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: I also want to thank Secretary- General Ban Ki-moon who has traveled and worked tirelessly in the past days throughout the international community to try to bring people together, as well as Arab League Secretary-General Nabil E. Laraby for his close partnership in this effort. They've been sources of good advice and also tireless effort. So this is a broad effort with a broad-based sense that something needs to be done.

I also want to acknowledge President Abbas, who traveled to any number of countries in recent days, and whom I met with just the other day, who expressed his desire, strong desire, to achieve a cease-fire as rapidly as possible. And he has been passionately advocating for the Palestinian people and future of the Palestinians.

(CROSSTALK)

KERRY: Let me just say that the agony of the events on the ground in Gaza, the West Bank, and Israel, all of them together simply cannot be overstated. The daily reality for too many people of grief, blood, and loss and tears, it all joins together to pull at the fabric of daily life in each of their communities. In Israel, millions of people are living under constant --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: The signal is awful, but this is a piece of U.S. secretary of state speaking in Cairo alongside U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon and others as he has been working tirelessly to achieve the cease-fire, which at this moment, has been rejected, as Wolf Blitzer is reporting, unanimously rejected by the Israeli cabinet.

Wolf Blitzer is standing by for me in Jerusalem. Fareed Zakaria is standing by in New York. And Karl Penhaul is live for us in Gaza City.

Wolf, to you first.

You broke the news that it was the cabinet that rejected this. It is a setback. From what we could make out that Secretary Kerry said, your reaction?

WOLF BLITZER, HOST, THE SITUATION ROOM: Well, he hasn't gotten to the substance of what he's been trying to achieve. He is thanking everybody for all their hard work, the Palestinian Authority, President Mahmoud Abbas, Secretary-General of the Arab League, U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. He is thanking everyone, going through the preliminaries as all good diplomats do, and making a case a cease- fire is essential.

Just look at what's going on in Gaza now. Look what happened in the past 24 hours, the destruction of the shelter, killing of the kids. The Israelis say they're investigating. May have been an errant missile. Might have been Hamas firing a rocket that fell short. The Israelis are investigating. Hamas accusing Israel. The Arab world outraged by the scenes we have all seen. The secretary making a case for emergency cease-fire.

But as he does so, the Israeli cabinet, the liberals and the moderates in the cabinet, conservatives in the cabinet, whatever political inclination you have, they unanimously have gone ahead and said, what's on the table now for the two-step interim cease-fire is unacceptable to Israel because they say, in effect, it would reward Hamas for terrorism. They say Hamas has engaged in launching these several thousand rockets and missiles into Israel's populated centers. So Israel's not accepting that. Now they say they're open to additional steps and modifications. They're not ruling out other proposals, but they've unanimously rejected the current proposal that the secretary of state put forward.

BALDWIN: From Israel, I'd like to go to Gaza, Gaza City, where Karl Penhaul has been reporting.

Karl, Wolf mentioned that U.N. shelter is ahead of the U.N. saying today was what happened, paraphrasing, horrible. What more do you know about the situation there on the ground? I know people were there at the school today. KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, you would have

thought that would be a defining moment in this war. That would be the moment that knocks the heads of the warring sides together to tell them, enough is enough. Civilians can't go on suffering like this. But no, not even that did the trick and this war has continued. Tonight, for sure, because there's no cease-fire, more people are going to die.

We did learn during the course of this afternoon, a U.N. team did go to that school in northeastern Gaza to try to carry out preliminary investigations into what caused the explosion yesterday and who caused it. But they said they were only on the ground for a very short while. They're told the Israeli military, in their words, that they were going in to carry out this investigation. And then their work was interrupted by gunfire all across that area. That U.N. team had to pull out without doing any of the work at all.

That said, that school has been in No Man's Land, in the combat zone, and nobody has had control of it since that explosion went off. So in terms of evidence, the chain of custody is gone. Difficult to know exactly what they're going to find even when they do manage to go back there. We know that the Israeli military promised an investigation. The U.N., of course, calling for a full report. But certainly, all that up in the air. But what neither side can afford to do is let this episode disappear into the full-blown war -- Brooke?

BALDWIN: Fareed Zakaria, to your point, we were talking a moment ago, the world has seen this movie before. Sadly, the world has seen how the movie plays out. And still, again, the violence ratcheted up. To Karl's point, the fact that it happened with children at a school, you would think that's the breaking point, that would be the point when the two sides could come together for the sake of humanity and in the humanitarian week-long crisis to make it happen. It has not. When will it?

ZAKARIA: Well, it's going to be very tough, especially given the two sides you're looking at. An Israeli cabinet that is determined to -- as I say, their feeling is they're going to pay the P.R. cost, whether they do 70 percent of the job or 95 percent. They'd rather keep moving. Hamas has been very intransigent because it feels that this is its only opportunity to in some way smite a blow. As they see it, they're in an open-air prison, as they describe it often. The two sides have become even less trusting of each other.

This is -- the great tragedy here is you're almost at a generation now, or a generation of Palestinians, a generation of Israelis, who don't believe there will be any solution to this. I think the idea that in that -- with that reality, with that underlying political tension, the lack of trust that you could somehow do surgical operations that would work -- Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world. About 125 square miles, two million people, very, very tough to do surgical operations. This is war. Stuff happens. And I think that the idea that you can be sure you're not going to kill civilians, only going to get at military structures, very, very difficult, very unlikely, no matter how good your intelligence, no matter how good your technology. And as you see, we see the results. 75 percent of the casualties have been civilians in Gaza. Of course, the Israelis are trying to make every effort, but it just shows you how every effort doesn't help when you have that kind of densely packed an area, and a Hamas that isn't particularly trying to shield its civilians from these attacks.

BALDWIN: Let me bring another voice in. Jim Acosta is in Washington, as we're really waiting for the crux of John Kerry as he's speaking there in Cairo.

Jim Acosta, what's the word from the White House here?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the White House, they were sort of caught off guard I think a little bit by this during the press briefing by Josh Earnest a few minutes ago. He was asked about this news that just came down really in the middle of the briefing that Israel rejected the cease-fire proposal. He couldn't weigh in on it. I did ask Josh Earnest about that awful attack on the U.N. school where 16 or more people died, and asked him whether or not the Israelis were getting the message that this White House was issuing earlier this week, and that is -- and Josh Earnest said it himself -- they want the Israelis to take what they call greater steps to minimize civilian casualties.

And I understand there's going to be an investigation under way into exactly as to what happened at the school in Gaza. But obviously, the White House is increasingly concerned about appears to be a disproportionate death toll in that conflict.

I also asked Josh Earnest about, it does seem as though the Israelis were very upset with this White House earlier this week when the FAA decided to halt the flights going into Tel Aviv. Wolf knows this better than anyone, having talked to a lot of people, including Mayor Michael Bloomberg in Israel. And what Josh Earnest said in response to that was that the fact that the FAA was talking to Israeli officials about that flight ban is evidence of how they're working in close cooperation and coordination with one another.

But I think this all makes the job of John Kerry much more difficult in terms of what he's trying to accomplish right now. It's been a difficult and bloody week as Wolf knows all too well in Israel.

BALDWIN: Jim Acosta, Wolf Blitzer, Karl Penhaul, Fareed Zakaria, stand by.

Quick break. As we have learned, Israel has rejected this proposal for a one-week humanitarian cease-fire in the Middle East. A quick break. CNN special coverage back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: This hour, breaking news on CNN. As you've been watching from the Middle East, hope dims for the temporary truce, a temporary cease-fire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. We've learned moments ago, Israel's cabinet unanimously rejected this week-long humanitarian cease-fire that had been brokered by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who is in Cairo, speaking in Cairo now. U.S. secretary of state is not giving up. Because as we've been listening to him, he says, despite disagreements between the sides, he is confident that there is a framework for a cease-fire that will ultimately succeed.

As far as other developments today, the violence there, the violence that has been going on and on for 18 days in Gaza is spreading to the West Bank.