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Troops Move, Violence Flares in Ukraine; Israel Approves New 24-Hour Cease-Fire; Challenge of Identifying Flight 17 Victims; How Safe Does Iron Dome Keep Israel?

Aired July 26, 2014 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: By the way, we reached out to Hamas spokesman Osama Hamdan to get his final official response on whether Hamas accepts the new 24-hour extension of the Israeli propose cease- fire. We'll let you know as soon as he gets back to us. He has not yet done so.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem. Be sure to join us again in THE SITUATION Monday.

Meanwhile, the news continues next on CNN.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN ANCHOR: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Miguel Marquez in New York.

Two regions and two conflicts far from the U.S., but both could have a huge impact on policies here at home.

In the Mideast this hour, there's talk of a new cease fire in Gaza to replace the one that just expired six hours ago. This one already approved by Israel is described as a 24-hour humanitarian cease-fire. In response by a request by the U.N., Israeli officials were quick to note that defense forces will continue to destroy tunnels leading into Israel from Gaza, and that they would respond to any violations of this new ceasefire. We're still waiting for an official response from Hamas.

Also tonight, growing tensions and violence in Ukraine. Government troops advance today towards the rebel-held city of Donetsk, raising the possibility of an all-out battle for that city. Those government troops have sparked a mass exodus from Donetsk. Roads clogged for miles as people try to get out before government forces try to retake the city from Russian rebels. As those forces rule, new fighting is reported in areas near the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

CNN's Kyung Lah is standing by for us in Ukrainian capital of Kiev.

Kyung, is the government -- what is the government saying about the movement of these troops towards Donetsk?

KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ukrainian forces are confirming that what they are doing is trying to get closer into this rebel-held stronghold. Donetsk is the heart of it. They want to retake it.

Now, the rebel commanders are also saying that they are seeing the Ukrainian tanks get closer to their forces. The fighting has intensified.

We have seen this fighting over the last month or so specifically, in this area in the last 24 hours, it has intensified. There is more shelling. There is antiaircraft fire.

What it's meant for the people living in this town because this is a city, they are fleeing the center of the city. Roads throughout Donetsk trying to get out of the city have been clogged throughout the day. Train service has been cut. We're also hearing about increased number of refugees. Russia reporting that some 4,600 refugees just in the last 24 hours are spilling across the border into Russia trying to get out of the heavy fighting -- Miguel.

MARQUEZ: What is your sense? Look, Barbara Starr has been reporting that the Russians are moving more material into and on the border of Ukraine. There's some firing into Ukraine from Russia, as well. The Ukrainians rushing in because they are embarrassed and frustrated over their lack of ability to secure the area around MH17. Are they moving so fast that this could back fire and the pro-Russian rebels could really hand them a defeat?

LAH: It may seem fast to the international community, but it's simply because we are more aware of it because of the plane crash. This is something that has been escalating and has been building over the weeks. This has been ongoing. We are merely paying more attention to it because of the terrible plane crash.

And so, what we are seeing now is what has been happening. Russia has been building its troops. Ukraine has been trying to overtake this territory. What is concerning, though, is since this plane crash what we did see is a bit of de-escalation from Russia's side. What is concerning is that U.S. intelligence reports show that Russia is increasing the number of troops right in there. They are trying to bring weapons from Russia into the territory to buffer up the rebels that support them. So, that is the big concern, what happens with the increased troops and artillery from Russia.

MARQUEZ: One of the most bizarre international coincidences.

Kyung Lah there for us tonight, thank you very much.

Now, we have assembled a really great group of people here to talk about Ukraine tonight, both military and aviation angles.

Retired Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, CNN military analyst David Soucie, a former safety inspector for the FAA, Bob Baer is a former CIA operative.

Colonel Francona, I want to go to you first. The Ukrainian troops advancing on Donetsk. What do you think is going on here? Do they want to re-take the city or trying to re-establish control over all of eastern Ukraine?

RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think they see this as an opportunity and they want to do this before Russians move all that equipment in there in masse. If you saw the types of equipment the Russians are massing, it's

pretty serious stuff. Those .22 millimeter rockets pack one heck of a punch and if they get that in there and can use it against government troops, it will be -- it could be decisive. So, they want to pre-empt that.

I have to tell you their concern over the crash site is waning. They are more concerned about their fight with the pro-Russian separatists than they are about the security of that disaster site.

MARQUEZ: Not a very good thing to hear.

Bob Baer, I want to go to you. Is this an attempt to take control of the city entirely? And could this all back fire on the Ukrainian forces?

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: Oh, I think they are going to make a move to take the entire eastern Ukraine. I think there is no doubt about it. I mean, they will put everything they can into it, including their air force as we have seen.

But on the other hand, in as much as we can assess what Putin is up to, he is not going to let it happen. If he has to he will move in mercenaries. He will move in his own forces at some point. And I wouldn't exclude an actual Russian incursion into the Ukraine. It's not impossible.

MARQUEZ: He has certainly made his stand on Ukraine very, very clear from the start. He was not going to give it up easily. All of this brings into sharp focus the plight of MH17.

David, there is still a crash investigation hopefully that will happen at some point. How corrupted is that area? How much has it been harmed at this point?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: From what I can tell it is harmed a great deal. We luckily have enough photographic documentation of what it was and where it was, that would possibly put together that information. From that, we still need to get our hands on some few critical pieces there that I hope are still there.

(CROSSTALK)

MARQUEZ: What do you need? Do you mean reconstitute the plane like they did with Flight 800?

SOUCIE: Not at all, not at all. There's too much evidence already. The preponderance of evidence is showing us that it was a missile. We just need some items of proof to show that if it does go to court, which would be simple to do. It doesn't take a lot to do that.

But what I need to get, what we will need to get the chips from the transponders and ACARS, and things like that. Information is still on that airplane, information that may or may not be on the data recorder.

MARQUEZ: That would have been preserved.

Colonel, have you ever seen a situation like this where you have a hot war like this with a disaster like MH17 right in the middle of it?

FRANCONA: All of the factors are converging into one pot here. And the players don't seem to care about the other side of it.

I -- my assessment of the Ukrainian army and the pro-Russian separatists both, neither one of them care about this crash site. It's no longer important because the Ukrainian government is fighting for survival as are the pro-Russian separatists. So, we are seeing the beginning of more intense fighting and the part that is going to suffer is this crash site. I think David has got it.

MARQUEZ: I also want to bring in Alan Diehl, who I think is with us now. He's former AAA investigator.

Alan, your sense of the crash site? Can investigators get in there and get what they need quickly and get out and certainly recover the victims of the terrible incident?

ALAN DIEHL, FORMER ACCIDENT INVESTIGATOR FOR NTSB AND FAA: Obviously, they have done much of that already as far as recovering the bodies. But obviously this is a war zone. I have worked in similar situations, at least one in Africa. But it wasn't quite like this. We weren't under live fire.

MARQUEZ: And, Bob, what Colonel Francona just talked about, do you -- I mean, do you agree? I mean, you say he's going after all of -- all of Eastern Ukraine, or they are trying to score a knockout punch here, what are the options? Does the West have to step up its efforts for the Ukrainian government both from a CIA perspective, or from -- what can they do?

BAER: Rick's right and this is going to be decisive weeks, the next couple. And what we need to do is get the Europeans and bring them together because they are the ones that ultimately have to decide what sort of sanctions are going to be imposed on Russia and it would no doubt have to involve energy. That's what would hurt Putin at this point and nothing else.

But so far, I haven't seen much leadership out of Europe. And it would have to -- I don't know what it will take to get Europeans to react.

MARQUEZ: Well, Kerry is there and he's certainly been pushing hard on Gaza. And you wouldn't imagine that he's talking a lot about this as well and what they can line up. There is even frustration in the Netherlands certainly, which is very, very close to Russia.

Alan, I want to go back to you real quickly. You said you operated in these situations before. You've never seen one like this. You know, David Soucie thinks you can get what you need out of it.

What do you think needs to happen? The security around that site and what pieces of it do you need in order to prove conclusively what happened?

DIEHL: Well, first of all, they need to get somebody, perhaps from the U.N. to take leadership here and secure the site. Obviously, there's wreckage that has evidence of shrapnel wounds. We know the separatists probably don't want that recovered. Putin probably doesn't want that recovered, but somebody needs to go in and get that as far as evidence to the cause of this accident.

And there is another humanitarian dimension which involves removing of the human remains. Hopefully, there is no intent to prevent that on the part of the separatists.

MARQUEZ: Bob, both you and the colonel make a frightening point that both the separatists and Ukrainian government seems to be losing interest in the crash site itself.

Is this crash just becoming an asterisk in the larger struggle?

BAER: I think it's been put behind. I don't see movement. I think people are going to sort of -- it will be recovered over a long period of time, completely contaminated. The Ukrainians aren't bringing up anymore. They are moving on to the question of will the Russians invade.

You know, I have seen these things in the past where airplanes went down in Iraq and tried to investigate it and it took years and years before we got an answer. It was a lost pilot.

MARQUEZ: Colonel, it's a frightening assessment. Will they be able to secure that area? Is there any international force to go in, secure that area for long enough so they can do what's necessary?

FRANCONA: The only way is if you get agreement between Ukrainians and pro-Russian separatists. They're not going to talk to each other right now. And I think they want it out of the way and, frankly, they just don't care.

MARQUEZ: Gentlemen, stay where you are. Thank you very much. Stay where you are. We are going to come back to you a little bit later.

In Gaza, a grim exodus from one ruined town to another, Palestinians in search of refuge from the violence. We'll go live to our Wolf Blitzer in Jerusalem, just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARQUEZ: It is a conflict that has now killed more than 1,000 Palestinians and some 45 Israelis, mostly civilians. And just a short a time ago, Israel authorized another humanitarian cease-fire in Gaza for 24 hours, the request of the U.N.

But Hamas spokesperson tells CNN the group is still undecided on the extension.

CNN's Wolf Blitzer joins us from Jerusalem. Wolf, you've been there for a little over two weeks now, throughout this entire thing, as it's playing out. It seems a little murky tonight. What are you hearing there?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR, THE SITUATION ROOM: Very murky. The Israelis have agreed at least to this 24-hour extension that started two hours or so ago. Osama Hamdan, The spokesman for Hamas told me about an hour and a half ago they would take a close look at it and they had some clarifications. They expected to get back to us very soon. We haven't heard whether or not they have accepted or not accepted. It wants some clarifications he says. But it is very, very murky.

Beyond that, Miguel, it is extremely dangerous right now, dangerous because for all practical purposes, despite the cease fire, who knows what is going to happen next?

I want to play for you this report that our own Karl Penhaul just filed from Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, mixed signals from Hamas tonight. One of their international representatives based in the gulf said that Hamas would be matching Israel's offer of a four-hour extension to Saturday's cease-fire. Meanwhile another representative here on the ground in Gaza said that there would be no such deal.

Meanwhile, there was one message that was loud and clear -- new rocket fire from the Gaza Strip into Israel in just two hours after the expire of the cease-fire. Hamas's Al-Qassam Brigade said they fired more than 12 rockets towards Israel.

However, the cease-fire did hold for much of the day and that gave a vital opportunity to displaced Gazans to head home. In many cases, they found it was simply going back to piles of rubble. We saw many picking through the ruins looking for possessions to try to start putting part of their lives back together again.

It was also an important chance, as well, for emergency crews to hunt for corpses of the dead and the disappeared. The Palestinian health authority said more than 150 bodies had been recovered in the course of the day, and that now pushes the total death toll from the confrontation skyrocketing to beyond 1,000.

I think one of the most poignant scenes that I witness in the course of the day was a young Palestinian man sifting through the ruins of this three-story family home. At one point, he plopped a photograph from his grandfather from the war as if he was perhaps trying to rescue his memory. He pulled from the debris a green folder and that contain birth certificates and a school diploma. It just reminded me really that this is a people without a nation state now in the midst of a brutal war and each one is hunting for any scrap of paper that proves they still exist -- Wolf.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Karl Penhaul, with that report filed just a little while ago. Very, very dangerous situation continuing in Gaza.

And, Miguel, you know, all of our journalistic colleagues know how dangerous it is for those reporters on the scene covering this story. One point, I would make about this proposed extension of the cease- fire, the Israelis say even though they are going to accept the cease fire they will continue to try to destroy those underground tunnels that Hamas has built from Gaza going to Israel. They want to blow these tunnels up.

They say they're about halfway through, I spoke with Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, the spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces in "THE SITUATION ROOM" a little while ago. He said they think they are about half way through, but they need another week or so to get the job done in destroying those tunnels. We'll see what happens next, a very tenuous situation -- Miguel.

MARQUEZ: The tunnels are one thing, but it's really, what is the bigger aim here. I mean, I heard your interview with the former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren, a little while ago. And he was talking about stopping down Hamas completely, about ending Hamas. That seems like a very, very high price to pay and talking about some sort of occupation, whether it's with Israeli forces or U.N. forces.

What is your sense about where this thing is going? How much wider is it going to get?

BLITZER: Well, look, if you listen to the Israelis, if you listen to Michael Oren, the former Israeli ambassador to the United States, you listen to the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, I interviewed him in Tel Aviv last week. They keep making the point that as far as Israel is concerned Hamas is like al Qaeda or ISIS or Hezbollah, or Boko Haram.

They keep making that point. They see this as a terrorist organization and they believe it has to be destroyed, the military arm of Hamas, is what they're trying to do, over the course of the next days, weeks, who knows how long it's going to take.

If you listen to other military analysts, they say that's not going to happen, that Hamas is simply too ingrained in Gaza right now, and that there's going to have to be some sort of deal. The U.S. is trying to work it out together with Turkey, Qatar, Egypt, others to see if they can get some long-term deal to deal with the situation. In the meantime, the fighting is presumably going to continue.

MARQUEZ: And you know this area so well. You've been there first since the beginning of this one. What is your sense? Where does the pressure need to be applied? John Kerry, secretary of state, is dealing with European leaders right now, trying to push the Israelis. But there is also another effort with Arab leaders trying to push the Palestinians. What is going to get this thing done?

WOLF: Well, we'll see how much pressure is put on Hamas. The Israelis obviously are putting a lot of pressure on Hamas militarily speaking. But we'll see if Qatar and Turkey and to a certain degree the Palestinian Authority if they can convince Hamas to stop launching rockets and missiles into Israel, then the Israelis presumably would stop their military operation in Gaza, once they get rid of those tunnels.

I think they would withdraw. The Israelis say they have no great desire and don't want to re-occupy Gaza, nearly 2 million Palestinians who live there, in a tiny sliver of land. The Israelis say they don't want to do that. We'll see if they can come up with some sort of solution, temporary solution. They did in November 2012, the last time fighting between Israel and Hamas occurred. The quiet continued for a while but resumed.

This is going to continue. We'll see if they can work out some semblance of quiet to stop the killing, to stop the people from dying. That would be the immediate objective. All of us would be thrilled to see the stopping of those images, horrible images that we have seen. Karl Penhaul and Ben Wedeman, Ian Lee, our reporters in Gaza reporting, but those are the images they are seeing and trying to show the world what's going on.

MARQUEZ: And each of those deaths only emboldens more to join Hamas or take the fight back to Israel and it just keeps going.

Wolf Blitzer for us tonight in Jerusalem -- thank you very much. Keep yourself safe out there. Thank you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

MARQUEZ: Tomorrow morning on "STATE OF THE UNION", Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu talks live with Candy Crowley about the crisis in the Middle East. Nancy Pelosi and Lindsey Graham will also join Candy to discuss President Obama's handling of this escalating. That's the "STATE OF THE UNION" at 9:00 Eastern.

And at 10:00 Eastern, Hillary Clinton and how she would handle the Israeli/Gaza crisis, and what she would say to Vladimir Putin about the handling of the situation in Ukraine. It's Hillary like you have never heard her before, on "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS". Again, that's tomorrow morning, at 10:00 Eastern, right after "STATE OF THE UNION" with Candy Crowley.

More than 700 Americans are serving on the front lines in Israel and Gaza. So, why would they risk their lives for a country they don't even live in? That's because they take this fight very personally. Their story, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARQUEZ: They are nicknamed lone soldiers -- Americans who served in the Israeli Defense Forces. They sign up for many reasons and have been serving in the IDF for decades.

CNN's Alexandra Field spoke to one young man who spent time in the IDF and may have to return to combat soon. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEXANDER FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A New York-based group Friends of IDF estimates there are 750 Americans currently serving the Israel defense forces.

So, why are so many people determined to fight for a country they don't live in? We spoke to two American soldiers who wanted to share their stories.

(voice-over): Two Americans killed in the conflict in Gaza, they weren't obligated to serve Israel. They decided to. Now they are hailed as heroes by soldiers who did the same.

ARI PLATT, AMERICAN, IDEF RESERVIST: I was sad but proud to see two people who really did something they believed in.

FIELD (on camera): You weren't required to serve. Why did you choose to?

PLATT: I'm Jewish. And I felt that it was really important.

FIELD (voice-over): Ari Platt was raised here and serves there. He has dual citizenship with Israel and the U.S. Foreigners who serves in Israel's army are commonly called lone soldiers.

But, often, their decision to join is motivated by feelings they shared.

PLATT: I chose the Israeli army because as a Jewish person the threat, the imminent threat of destruction, of all of the atrocities in our life from the Holocaust and beforehand, it was something that I felt that if we have an army now, that I have to help them out.

FIELD: More than 900 Palestinians killed in the latest conflict. At least 40 from the Israeli forces are dead, including Americans Nissim Sean Carmeli and Max Steinberg.

ASHER ZLOTNIK, AMERICAN, IDF RESERVIST: Max is from Los Angeles, from the San Fernando valley where my brother and I grew up. And though I didn't know him personally, it hits close to home.

FIELD: Asher Zlotnik, an American and Israeli citizen, served with the IDF for three years. His brother is on active duty now. His unit is in the conflict zone.

ZLOTNIK: You start imagining the worst. On one hand, each time they release a name, you breathe a sigh of relief because it's not him but then you realize that is someone else's son or brother or father.

FIELD: Zlotnik, a reservist, says soldiers from his unit have been called back to duty. So far, his team hasn't.

ZLOTNIK: It's not something I would ever want to put myself in, but at the same time, this is what -- this is what we have to do.

FIELD: Zlotnik and Platt don't live in Israel but both believe they share a responsibility to fight for it.

ZLOTNIK: It's easy to live in America and advocate for Israel. But if you want to take the next step and be active and stand up for what you believe in, it seems a logical progression.

FIELD (on camera): Israeli citizens are required to do military service. Noncitizens are able to apply. But the IDF won't put a number on how many soldiers have other nationalities.

Alexandra Field, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Thank you very much for that.

After a plane crash, few tasks are harder than identifying the victims. Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 is an especially tough challenge. Ahead, Dr. Sanjay Gupta explains what forensic experts are up against.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARQUEZ: To Libya now where Americans are being warned to get out now. The U.S. evacuated the embassy in Tripoli due to heavy militia violence raging across the city. About 150 personnel including 80 Marines were driven across the border into Tunisia.

Here's part of the State Department's very blunt warning to Americans. "Travelers should be aware that they may be targeted for kidnapping, violent attacks or death. U.S. citizens currently in Libya should exercise extreme caution and depart immediately."

Here is how the State Department explained the embassy evacuation to CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIE HARF, DEPUTY SPOKESWOMAN, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT: So this really was a decision made based on the fact that our embassy is in proximity of some pretty serious fighting and we felt that our people were at risk. This is a temporary relocation. We will go back in with our people as soon as it's safe to do so.

This is really a generational fight in Libya and we are going to be there right alongside with them. But of course, safety and security of our people has to be our top priority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: Now the U.N. and other international groups and businesses evacuated staff from Libya earlier this month.

Now remains of those on board Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 finally began to return to the Netherlands this week but the task of identifying them is just beginning. Doctors will have to look for as many clues as they can. As chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta reports it could take

months before families finally get the answers they need.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After more than two days of lying in fields covered with debris with temperatures in the high 80s, the first shreds of dignity finally appeared Monday. Some 200 body bags to be placed in simple wooden caskets according to Ukrainian officials.

How many souls inside? No one can say for sure.

A 160-plus miles on rail through the plains of eastern Ukraine, before flying another 1300 miles to the Netherlands where the plane originally departed. They were greeted by the king and queen as casualties of war, 298 casualties from a war they never fought.

(On camera): Forty simple wooden caskets on Wednesday, 74 more on Thursday. Dutch officials now saying all of the remains will be brought here to Hilversum military base over the next few days.

A team of 75 investigators, they represent countries that represent the passengers who were aboard that plane, those investigators now with the awful task of going through the remains, trying to identify them. They'll rely on basic things, clothing, jewelry, anything unique about the person, but also dental records, medical records, and finally, the gold standard, which will be DNA analysis.

JOS VAN ROO, CHIEF, DUTCH FORENSICS TEAM (Through Translator): There are a lot of bodies and body parts coming our way. All bits must be examined and it must be very precise. You must make sure you don't give the wrong body to the wrong family.

GUPTA (voice-over): Eight years after the Oklahoma City bombing, a woman was discovered to have been buried with another victim's leg. Just 60 percent of those who died in the world trade center on 9/11 were ever officially identified. Nine years after Hurricane Katrina hit, the city of New Orleans still has 31 unidentified remains.

It is a science, but not a perfect science. In the direct aftermath of the crash, emergency workers, volunteers, even rebels move freely about the site.

DR. VICTOR WEEDN, CHAIR OF FORENSIC SCIENCE, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: We don't know where each set of remains actually were recovered from, and that will hamper some of the information that might otherwise be gleaned from the remains themselves.

GUPTA: None of this is easy for the families or the investigators. We know some of the remains may be charred or fragmented. That degrades the quality of the DNA. Also, if entire families were traveling together, their DNA pool may be gone forever, making matches nearly impossible.

No, none of this is easy, but all of it necessary. The primary goal isn't investigative, legal, or even medical for that matter. It is to return the remains home to the people who love them.

WEEDN: This is a tremendously important humanitarian effort.

GUPTA (on camera): Now it is worth pointing out that because of some of that contamination that we talked about in the fields it could be harder to analyze that DNA and make sure that it's a positive and consistent identification.

Also, this whole process could take weeks if not months. Remember after that plane crash in Tripoli back in 2010 it took one month to identify the 104 bodies.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: Sanjay Gupta for us tonight, thank you very much.

Lessons from earlier crashes apply to the Flight 17 investigation but have experts ever faced a challenge like this crash site in a war zone?

Alleged looting of victim's belonging and a possible cover-up, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARQUEZ: Now as the investigation unfolds in the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 families are still waiting for officials to identify their loved ones. And as we've heard from our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta earlier, that could take months.

Joining me now are David Soucie, former FAA safety inspector, and former accident investigator Alan Diehl, who worked for the NTSB, FAA and the Air Force.

David, let's start with you. What challenges lie ahead for investigators as they get into this area? How big of an -- an area do they have to secure?

DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: That's the biggest challenge right now to me is that you could be looking at an area six miles or even greater than that -- to do the body search. And I've looked at some satellite images from all source imaging or all source analysis and what they are showing me and the analysts there is that there's areas where they still haven't touched. There's still areas that haven't been searched.

MARQUEZ: So there may be as many as 100 remains from people who are on the flight still out there and they wouldn't necessarily be just where the damaged aircraft is or the pieces came down?

SOUCIE: No, they really wouldn't. Without being too graphic for -- in honor of the families but they could not only be behind where the aircraft trajectory was but they can actually be ahead of where the aircraft landed, as well. And that's the areas they're not searching is on the other side. MARQUEZ: It is -- it is unbelievable to think of.

Alan, looting has been a big issue here. Do you think investigators -- they'll have the information that they need? Will the evidence have been tampered with to the point where they can't understand what happened here?

ALAN DIEHL, FORMER ACCIDENT INVESTIGATOR FOR NTSB AND FAA: Well, Miguel, I think we know pretty well what happened in terms of the missile destroying the aircraft. But there is an awful lot of details we'd like to get and a couple of things David alluded to that are going to be really tough on the investigators and that is the bodies of children. I have had to do this on occasion. It's bad enough to handle aircraft wreckage, it's worse to handle human remains.

But of course when you find the remains of infants or children it is really difficult. So yes, there'll be a lot of tough days ahead for these investigators and it may stay with them for many years.

MARQUEZ: Well, Alan, on that point, what is it then? If you're so confident it's a missile strike which I think we all are at this point, what is it then that you want to know from what remains in the fields?

DIEHL: Well, more documentation. In an earlier segment on CNN I said, you know, I think we are going to end up in some kind of criminal trial in the Hague over this. I believe, you know, the separatists, the people who actually pressed the buttons are probably going to insist that that didn't happen. So we do need to get, if you will, fragments from the warheads so we can track it back to --

MARQUEZ: And his Skype just froze up, the wonders of technology there.

David, the remains for so -- many of these victims have been in the Netherlands. Now we've had one that has been identified. They haven't told us who that is but the family has been told. How long do you think this process is going to take given that they were brought out the way they were brought out and handled in Ukraine?

SOUCIE: Yes.

MARQUEZ: And then --

SOUCIE: The biggest challenge with handling the deceased and not only from the forensics as to what they can give us information about how the aircraft went down but also with identifying if you've got a deceased that's been there for three or four days even the DNA access can be difficult because the DNA comes from the blood, is how they get those samples. And that can be tainted, they can have some problems with it, as well. So it really is a super challenge the longer it goes.

Plus, if you still have deceased out in these areas that have not been recovered yet that makes it even more challenging. We could be looking at months -- several months easily. MARQUEZ: And Alan, I think you are back now, your Skype all sorted

out. You're talking like an investigator for a criminal trial. Clearly you want to have the goods so that when this does and you assume it will go to the Hague or some forum at some point that whoever is responsible will pay a criminal price, is that right?

DIEHL: Well, it's not a vendetta that I have but I certainly think we need to think about that. Normally NTSB doesn't deal with criminal activities. But, you know, clearly from all indications this was an act, I believe probably was accidental, but we need to -- we need to think about that. And I know there's been an argument that when the FBI, for example, in this country enters an investigation they use very thorough procedures because they know they're going to have to take it to trial.

Now obviously the investigators out there now are not going to be doing that, but they need to lay the groundwork. I would expect Putin or whomever will throw the operators, the separatist operators that pushed the button underneath the bus, but we still need to try to gather all the evidence to have a complete picture.

And there's one other thing that I almost hate to mention, Miguel. And that is I don't know about natural predation. There's another reason why we want to get out there and locate those human remains. I don't know what sort of animal activity is in that area but, you know, that -- as grim as that sounds that may be --

MARQUEZ: That's very grim.

(CROSSTALK)

MARQUEZ: Thank you very much. And I do want to say, David, you mentioned earlier they need about 1,000 people -- at least 1,000 people out there to work on this.

SOUCIE: At this point not quite that many because with the deceased already being gone, but it's quite a few people.

MARQUEZ: Yes.

SOUCIE: We need at least hundreds.

MARQUEZ: Much more than they have right now.

SOUCIE: At least hundreds, yes.

MARQUEZ: All right. David, Alan, thank you very much.

Now Israel's Iron Dome system was a game changer in its fight against Hamas. It can knock out rockets before -- at the sky before they even pose a threat and it's paid for in part by American taxpayers. Next, is our investment worth it?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MARQUEZ: Now we talk a lot about Israel's Iron Dome. Well, we can show you video of it in action. Take a look as cameras capture a rocket being fired from Gaza toward Israel. Follow the white smoke trail across the sky until it appears to turn away then explode high above the ground.

How does this thing work? For that answer, we turn to CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (ON CAMERA): Any time rockets launch headed toward Israel, very high-tech cameras, radar systems and computers start analyzing them. How big are they, how fast are they moving? Importantly, where are they pointed? Because at the same time the analysis and targeting phase is triggered.

What that means is if it sees that some of these are headed off into the water or perhaps headed into rural areas where there's really not much to hit, they just let them go. The whole system says we're done with you. Go off and explode, you'll make no difference to anyone. But if it spots a missile out there that's aimed toward a building or a town or place where people can get hurt, then those same computers kick into the destruction phase.

That means that they communicate with batteries of missiles on the ground and they fire those and those fly up and get as close as they can to that incoming threat. Each of these defensive missiles, maybe only about 10 feet long, but has some 24 pounds of high explosives and when they're close enough, they detonate, obliterating everything in that part of the sky.

It works pretty well and it's not cheap. It was developed originally by an Israeli defense company, but this system has now been supported by about $235 million from the United States. Each of the defensive missiles, by the way, cost around $62,000, but the goal here is to keep making this bigger and more effective so it can reach out further, hit targets further away, engager missiles at higher altitudes.

And you know what that's all about. That's about giving both the U.S. and Israel greater defense against more robust enemies at a greater range.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MARQUEZ: So impressive but expensive technology. It does raise the question, can it keep Israel safe from whatever its enemies can throw at it?

Let's dig deeper into this with our military analyst, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Francona, and security analyst and former CIA operative Bob Baer. He joins us from Los Angeles.

Colonel, I want to go first to you. The Iron Dome has been a bit of a game changer here. The success rate in hitting these things is very high but it doesn't always destroy the warhead. LT. COL. RICK FRANCONA, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's what we're

finding out. Although it's had great success in actually intercepting the rocket, it doesn't always hone in on the warhead. And that's what it's designed to do. It's designed to exploded the warhead and render it harmless.

What we're seeing it do in not all cases but many cases it's hitting the rocket booster itself, and knocking it off course which can be effective as well, but the goal of it is to destroy it in the air and turn it into small pieces.

MARQUEZ: Bob, because they have this fairly effective system, and it seems Israel may have gotten lucky so far, that none of the warheads and other rockets have penetrated it and taken civilian lives, but can Israel exist -- it doesn't seem that they want to continue down this road where they knock out rockets and they deal with Hamas every few years.

Can they keep going down this way?

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Miguel, I mean, Israel's got other problems. Hamas is one thing. The rockets are not very sophisticated. They're homemade, most of them. They're fairly easy to knock down. This is a sophisticated system, no doubt about it. But let's take Hezbollah, for instance. You know, they've got tens of thousands of sophisticated rockets all aimed at Israel, and you can, by swarming Israeli defenses, including Iron Dome, you can actually get through and hit their cities and they know it.

So Israel does have to fall back on traditional ground forces to punish its enemies and this is what we're seeing in Gaza. It's -- you know, Iron Dome is not enough to protect Israel. So it's got to have multiple levels of defense.

MARQUEZ: And with regard to the money that the U.S. spends on this, $235 million, obviously Israel and the U.S. are very, very close partners. Is it -- is it money well spent from a military and political point of view for the U.S.?

FRANCONA: I think on both fronts. From a military point of view, this is a pretty effective system. The technology seems to work. And this is technology we can just import from the Israelis. We're paying for this. And we're focusing on a different set of anti-missile themes. We're looking for longer range missiles. So whereas our systems are going after longer range threats and Israelis are going after the near-range threats, between the two of us we can cover that whole range of threats.

So I think it's a smart thing to do. Let the Israelis focus on this and we'll focus on the other. So synergistic effect.

MARQUEZ: Yes. Bob, while I have you here, the situation in Libya, the U.S. evacuated its personnel from the embassy earlier. Clearly there is great concern in Libya because of what happened in Benghazi a couple of years ago. Was this the right move by the U.S.? BAER: Oh, I think so. I think we lost all our important

interlocutors there, once Tripoli succumbed to the civil war. You know, you just take the precautions of pulling people out. I've been in an embassy that's evacuated. We start taking rounds. Ironically, it was the Russians that evacuated us in tanks and armored personnel carriers, but you know, there's no point in losing diplomats. They're not combatants. We're not there to fight a war. So, yes, pull them out, open up an intersection in Tunisia or some place and we'll be just fine until it quiets down.

MARQUEZ: You may be the only person we've ever had on who's been rescued by the Russians. Fabulous, I love that.

(LAUGHTER)

Colonel, the security measures that have been take now in -- in Libya, in Tripoli, obviously hindsight is 20/20. We wish that we had those same situations in Benghazi. But is this just overreaction by the administration or was this a necessary move?

FRANCONA: No, I think this is prudent. I mean, you learn from your mistakes. We learned that we had a problem in Gaza, maybe we should have pulled out sooner. Hindsight being 20/20 as you say. But no, I think this is a smart thing to do. There's no reason to lose diplomats in Libya. We can do what we need to do from Tunisia, as Bob says. I think this is a smart thing.

MARQUEZ: Bob, and if I could go back to Iron Dome and the situation in Gaza right now, what is your sense of it? What does Hamas want?

BAER: I think Hamas, at the end of the day, would settle for some sort of lifting of the embargo against, you know, the east, you know, the suffering of the population. There's a clear suffering of it. The Israelis would come back and argue, well, they'll misuse it, they'll import concrete to build tunnels.

MARQUEZ: Yes.

BAER: And that's why we're at such loggerheads is they don't trust each other. In fact, we have no interlocutors that are trusted by both sides. And --

MARQUEZ: But I can't imagine -- I can't imagine Hamas is going to get that deal in a hot war like this, correct?

BAER: Not a chance. I just don't see anybody stepping in and I just think the Israelis are going to keep going until those tunnels are all gone.

MARQUEZ: All right. Bob, Colonel Francona, thank you very much.

You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Miguel Marquez in New York. We begin with the bloody conflict between Israel and Hamas.

New temporary truce may be in the works. Here's what we know right now.