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What Can be Done to Help Ukraine?; Hamas-Run TV: Gaza Hospital Hit; Repeal the Federal Ban on Marijuana

Aired July 28, 2014 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Again, the United States doesn't directly have a dog in this fight. Europe gets its energy from Russia. The people on board that plane were from other countries, not America, so why isn't the EU manning up right now?

NICHOLAS BURNS, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: But the European Union is deciding this week on major sanctions toward Russia for the first time since the Ukraine crisis began in late February. That's a significant development. Now, they have dragged their feet for many months because of the economic dependence that Europe has on Russia, but if they did go forward with major sanctions this week, it would be a significant development and it would drive up the cost to President Putin.

I'd also say, Carol, I don't agree that the United States doesn't have a dog in this fight. We have a direct, vital interest in the security of Europe and the future of freedom and democracy in Europe. That's why when the Cold War ended, when all those countries in central Europe became members eventually of NATO and the European Union it was a great achievement for American diplomacy, not just for European diplomacy.

So I would say our interests with Europe are twinned. We both need to see President Putin back off in Ukraine and we both need to help the Ukrainian government.

COSTELLO: Well, the Ukrainian government seems to want a lot from the United States. It wants the United States to rebuild its country. This is what the Ukrainian president wrote in a "Washington Post" op- ed -- more on that. He said, "Ukraine can use U.S. leadership and assistance in our efforts to curtail corruption, revive our financial institutions, reform our energy policy, and liberalize our agriculture sector. Additionally we need U.S. natural gas to shore up our energy supplies so that we cannot be blackmailed by Moscow. We need a reliable partner and ally to help fuel our nation." It sounds like Ukraine wants the United States to totally rebuild Ukraine?

BURNS: Well, that's not realistic and it's probably not what President Poroshenko thinks. He wants overt American economic and political assistance because it will help his country rebuild itself. But clearly, the economic links with Germany, with Italy, with the Netherlands, with France, will be much greater. EU aid dwarfs aid by the United States. And clearly the future of Ukraine, as it looks westward will be economic ties to the E.U. itself. It also cannot escape economic relations with Russia. Those two countries have been twins symbiotically for many centuries. And so the problem with Ukraine is it needs to look as people have been saying both West and East for its long term economic livelihood. But for right now, the European sanctions this week will be a big story if they materialize. The White House is saying this morning that President Obama is on the phone this morning with The European leaders to encourage them to take that step towards major sanctions.

COSTELLO: Well, we'll see what happens. Nicholas Burns thanks so much for your insight. I appreciate it.

BURNS: Thank you.

Checking some of the top stories for you at 32 minutes past. Jury selection under way in the federal corruption trial of former Virginia governor, Bob McDonnell and his wife, Maureen. The couple is accused of accepting gifts and loans valued at $165,000 from the owner of a dietary supplements company. The trial is expected to last about five weeks.

One person was killed and 13 injured after a rare lightning strike on California's Venice Beach. A lightning hit the water and the beach yesterday afternoon. One witness tweeted, "The sound was like an explosion with roof tiles being blown off."

Delta airlines is looking into a testy exchange between one of its pilots and an air traffic controller at the Atlanta Jackson Airport. The argument escalated as the plane was taking off.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't have an attitude. I'm just saying it looks like you joined Lima instead of Mike and I'm just trying to correct you before you stay on Lima.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok, because my God, there's another plane out there like six miles away. Your attitude is really something sir. We're out here on Mike. Good morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Settle down Captain Happy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSTELLO: The FAA initially declined comment on the story but may have something to say about it later today.

Still to come in the NEWSROOM sophisticated passage ways lurking beneath the border that separates Israel and Gaz. Today those so- called terror tunnels between Israel and Gaza are in the cross hairs.

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COSTELLO: All right. A Hamas run TV station now airing new pictures from a Gaza hospital where they describe a direct strike from what they claim was an Israeli drone. CNN's Ian Lee is live in Gaza. Ian what more do we know about this?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that same television station is reporting that ten children were killed. They are saying that it hit a clinic that was part of the Shifa hospital compound -- that's the main hospital here in Gaza. I was actually there yesterday. It's a large facility. It's the main place where some of the most critically injured people go to get care.

There's a lot of people taking refuge there. They are staying there. They believed that that was a safe place and typically this is a very safe place for people to go to, to really take shelter from this war, but it looks like at least from what we're hearing is that it was hit. There are casualties and we are looking into that right now, but this would be a very big hit for -- really for a lot of people here, especially targeting a hospital is forbidden under the Geneva Convention. It's against the rules of war. And so this is going to be looked at and scrutinized very closely when we hear more details of what actually happened and what transpired.

COSTELLO: I would assume our reporters are on their way to the scene right now, Ian Lee. But again this is from Hamas run TV -- these pictures. They are claiming that this hospital was hit by an Israeli drone. CNN cannot independently confirm that.

I want to turn now to executive director of the Palestine Center, Yousef Munayyer, he joins us now from Washington. Good morning, sir.

YOUSEF MUNAYYER, EXEC. DIRECTOR, PALESTINE CENTER: Good morning. Good to see you again.

And Ian, thanks for sticking around, I appreciate that.

You said there's supposed to be a cease-fire in place, right?

Well, there's been multiple announcements by both sides of cease-fires but I think, you know, what the images that we just saw and the images that continue to come out of Gaza, of these horrifying scenes of children in particular who are suffering, the highest costs of this campaign, really underscore the fact that the parties cannot be left alone to determine how to end this fighting, particularly when there is such a dramatic imbalance of power between the parties.

There needs to be a really direct and immediate international intervention to end this bombardment that is taking such a high toll on civilian life in particular, as I think your viewers are seeing on the screen right now.

COSTELLO: Ian, again we don't know exactly what happened here or who is responsible, but an Israeli official told Kate Bolduan this morning that Israel would not fire on Gaza unless it was provoked. What can you tell us about that?

LEE: Well, the Israelis did say today that's they weren't going to fire unless they were fired upon by a rocket, although I can tell you in about the last hour or so, we've seen heavy fighting start to pick up around where we are at here in Gaza city. We actually heard the explosion from our vantage point that hit or that was at the hospital.

You are right, we do not know the detail of what happened. We're looking into that right now. We have a team on their way there. But this is a hospital. It is -- as everyone knows where this is, so if this is an air strike, there's going to be a lot of questions about why and how this possibly could happen as this hospital is the most well-known hospital here in Gaza and there are a lot of people, a lot of civilians who went there to take shelter from the fighting.

We are watching this on al-Aqsa TV. This is a Hamas television station. So we need to take that into account when we're drawing any sorts of conclusions. They are reporting that ten children have been killed in this. They are showing images of what happened, but again, until we get there and see it for ourselves, get some of this information, we're holding off on drawing any strong conclusions right now.

COSTELLO: Yousef, Israel says its goal here is to close these terror tunnels, these tunnels leading from Gaza into Israel, from Gaza into Egypt. Why not -- why doesn't Hamas just show Israel where these tunnels are and offer to close them up?

MUNAYYER: Well, you have to understand that, you know, the reason these tunnels exist, the reason that the entire tunnel enterprise began in Gaza was because of this siege that's been imposed on the Gaza Strip. The tactics that are being used by not just Hamas, by the way, but a variety of different Palestinian factions which are across the political spectrum in Gaza, are really determined in relation to the conditions on the ground which is the siege and which is this closure of the Gaza Strip.

You know, Palestinians would certainly prefer not to use rockets or tunnels if they had an independent sovereign state with the kind of defense establishment that states around the world have to rely on for self-defense.

So while we can question all day the use of particular tactics, the reality is those are governed by the nature of the battlefield and we cannot question the right of Palestinians to defend themselves from a foreign military occupation.

COSTELLO: Well, the United States considers Hamas a terrorist organization. It would be disturbing I think to anyone for a terrorist organization to dig a tunnel into another country and just unleash violence. That's scary.

MUNAYYER: Sure, I understand that, Carol, but nobody wakes up one morning and says you know what, "Today is a really good day to just lob some rockets at somebody." Nobody does that. This happens because it is provoked. There is a context here. There is a now decades long military occupation of Palestinian territory on top of a siege now in the Gaza Strip that has persisted for several years, making life unbearable there.

So you know, this is the natural human reaction to oppression. The form that that reaction takes is really something that, you know, is very difficult to control.

COSTELLO: But people are dying, children are dying. Hospitals and schools are in the crossfire.

MUNAYYER: And I'm sure that's not lost on the Palestinians who are pulling their family members out of the rubble here. But let's be clear on why this is happening. This is happening because there are F-16s and tanks and naval ships that are dropping bombs on civilian houses. And that is the most direct and immediate cause of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip, on top of a context that is already slanted very much against Palestinians.

COSTELLO: But Hamas bears part of the blame for this too, these civilian deaths. You can't take them totally out of the mix.

MUNAYYER: Again, you know, the claim about Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip operating in civilian areas, we know that. This is guerilla warfare but how are they supposed to resist an occupation that is using F-16s and tanks and so on when what they have are these limited rudimentary tools.

I think what we need to focus on here is the fact that there is this massive attack on a largely civilian population and the resistance to it, sure, their tactics you can question them all day long, but the reality is they are born out of a context that is fundamentally unjust.

COSTELLO: Ian, I want to ask you, what are the people of Gaza saying about this? Who did they blame?

LEE: Well, actually, a lot of people we talk to on the ground agree. They say that they are ok with the fighting so far because they want to see a fundamental shift of their living status here in Gaza. They say that the status quo cannot continue and that they want what they see as the siege of Gaza lifted, that goods and services flow through these borders and that they leave.

And when you talk to them -- you bring up the point that over a thousand people have been killed -- they say that this is the price that they are willing to pay. That's what a lot of people are saying to us. Of course, there are other people who disagree with that, who want things to return to normal. They want the quiet, the peace. They don't want to have to flee to these U.N. shelters that have been set up to ride out this conflict.

But when we talk to Hamas too they say that they are digging in their heels. They are ready to fight the long fight. Other Gazan militants as well say they will not stop until they change the status quo.

I was talking to the foreign ministry just the other day, and they said all the cease-fires that are brought up, unless they have that condition that goods and services can start flowing a lot smoother that they are not going to stop firing their rockets, they're not going to stop attacking -- Carol.

COSTELLO: Ian Lee, Yousef Munayyer, thanks to both of you. I appreciate it.

Again, according to Hamas TV, a hospital in Gaza was hit. Hamas TV is reporting that ten children have died. Of course, CNN cannot independently confirm this but we do have our correspondents on the way.

I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: "Reefer Madness", you remember that. The 1930s propaganda style movie told a cautionary tale about the dangers of smoking Marijuana, warning viewers that if they took one puff, they become unproductive, crazed and violent.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Faster. Play faster. Faster. Play faster.

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COSTELLO: See, if you smoke pot, you could play the piano in quite a crazy way. We've come a lot long way since those days. Just look at the "New York Times" for example. The newspaper's editorial board is calling on the federal government to repeal its ban on marijuana and writes quote, "It took 13 years for the United States to come to its senses and end prohibition. 13 years in which people kept drinking. Otherwise law abiding citizens became criminals and crime syndicates arose and flourished. It has been more than 40 years since Congress passed the current ban on marijuana, inflicting great harm on society just to prohibit a substance far less dangerous than alcohol."

Let's talk more about this with Vikas Bajaj, he's an editorial board member with the "New York Times". Welcome.

VIKAS BAJAJ, EDITORIAL BOARD MEMBER, "NEW YORK TIMES": Thanks you.

COSTELLO: Well, first of all what kind of feedback have you gotten from readers?

BAJAJ: M1: We've gotten a tremendous amount of feedback, Carol. Most of it has been pretty positive. A lot of people are saying that, you know, it's high time and that this has gone on long enough and the public's attitudes about marijuana has changed since the days of "Reefer Madness" which you just referred to.

Obviously there are some people who feel strongly the other way, and they are writing in and saying that we shouldn't change the law and what's happening in states like Colorado and Washington is bad for the country. We obviously disagree with that -- that point.

COSTELLO: With all of the geo political issues on the world stage right now, why is the "New York Times" taking a stand on marijuana at this particular time?

BAJAJ: I think it's because the country is moving. We've already seen Colorado and Washington legalize. Ballots are supposed -- this issue is supposed to be on the ballot again in Oregon and Alaska this fall. So I think the country's moving on this and the states are moving on this. So I think we felt like it was time for us to take a position on it, a stronger position than we have taken before.

COSTELLO: Well, when you look at the poll numbers, Americans really do seem to support this, according to a CNN/ORC poll 55 percent of Americans say marijuana should be legal, but do you really think that Congress will take up this issue and do much?

BAJAJ: Probably not this year, probably not even in the next couple of years, but I do think that this is an issue where the public will continue to move in the direction of supporting a repeal of the ban and so I think at some point Congress will act. And I think it's important for Congress to act because what's happening in the states that have legalized it, and the states that will legalize it, that these people engaged in the business will be a threat from future government that might decide a future federal government that might decide to crack down on them. That's not a very tenable position where something is legal on the state level and illegal on the federal level.

COSTELLO: Ok, I have to ask you this question. Will "The New York Times" continue to test its people for marijuana use?

BAJAJ: That's something that will have to be decided by people with a higher pay grade than me.

COSTELLO: Well, don't you think they should stop that?

BAJAJ: You know, personally I would support them stopping that. You know, I think this is again tied into the federal prohibition because a lot of companies test for this, even though they don't really want to test for it but because of some illegal substance people feel compelled to test for it.

And if the government repealed its ban and took the marijuana off Schedule 1, companies will feel different about it and corporate policies would change.

COSTELLO: Vikas Bajaj, thank you so much for sharing the insight. I appreciate it.

BAJAJ: Thank you for having me.

COSTELLO: Any time. I'll be right back.

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COSTELLO: Checking some top stories for you at 58 minutes past the hour.

The FAA and the NTSB are investigating an emergency landing on a Florida beach that killed a Georgia man and critically injured his daughter. The small plane struck him yesterday while they were walking along Florida's gulf coast. The man has been identified as 36-year-old Ami Irazari. His nine-year-old daughter was airlifted to the hospital. The plane's pilot and passenger were not hurt.

In money news Dollar Tree is buying Family Dollar with big bucks at stake. The sale price is $8.5 billion with annual revenue of the combined company doubling that number. Dollar Tree will operate more than 13,000 stores in 48 states and Canada.

Sarah Palin taking on the digital world with the creation of her online news channel, complete with a debt clock and a count down to Obama leaving office. The former Alaska governor and Republican vice presidential candidate says she'll offer viewers an alternative voice to the quote, "Politically correct filter of the mainstream media."

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SARAH PALIN, FORMER GOP VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Welcome to a new project. This is a news channel that really is a lot more than news. This is a community where we're going to be able to share ideas and discuss the issues of the day and we're going to find solutions. Are you tired of the media filters? Well, I am. I always have been. So we're going to do something about it.

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COSTELLO: The site is subscription based. Viewers can pay $99 a year or $9.95 per month. Active duty military personnel can subscribe free of charge.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Carol Costello.

"@THIS HOUR WITH BERMAN AND MICHAELA" starts now.