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Explosions in Gaza City; Flight 17 Crash Site Still Not Secure

Aired July 28, 2014 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: And we continue on, top of the hour. You're watching CNN.

I'm Brooke Baldwin following breaking developments out of the Middle East at this hour, Israeli illumination flares lighting up the night sky over Gaza, 10:00 at night there, signaling what could be the start of a major military offensive by Israel armed forces.

We have CNN teams inside Gaza. They're reporting hearing artillery fire over their heads in the skies. And for the first time in the last three weeks, the IDF has actually sent this blanket text message, this widespread SMS text message, to cell phones of Palestinians, advising them to stay inside their homes.

Before darkness fell, there was just chaos at Gaza's largest hospital. Gaza's health ministry says 10 people died at an explosion at a refugee camp, eight of them children. The Israel Defense Forces say the blast and a separate explosion at a Gaza hospital that wounded two people were both caused by misfired Hamas rockets.

But Hamas and witnesses inside the refugee camp blame Israel for those blasts.

Let's go to Jerusalem to our very own Wolf Blitzer, is there for yet another day here.

And, Wolf, you talked to an Israeli military spokesman earlier. What did he tell you about that blast at that refugee camp?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: He flatly said -- this is Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner, the spokesman for the IDF, the Israel Defense Forces. He flatly blamed Hamas. In fact, he said have been numerous Hamas rockets and missiles that have been launched inside Gaza, but then just fell, just never made it into Israel, went off, fell inside Gaza, and caused significant damage, and he said that's what occurred this time as well.

Hamas totally denies that. They say there were Israeli drones flying over, that eyewitnesses heard Israeli drones and they say that that strike came from an Israeli drone. There will be a full-scale investigation, Brooke. We will see what the investigators come up with. I'm sure the U.N. and other international observers in Gaza will be taking a close look. They will see the remnants of any missile or rocket and try to determine where it came from.

But there's clearly a difference between what Hamas is saying and what the Israelis are saying.

BALDWIN: OK. Wolf, let me just switch gears and talk about those tunnels. And as we learn and see the pictures of you climbing through these -- looks like they're not very tall at all, serve dual purposes, to get food and water into for the people of Gaza, but also to get weapons into Hamas. What were they like?

BLITZER: Well, you know, I was invited. I went in this morning. The IDF, Israel Defense Forces, said I could go into one of the tunnels, a tunnel that went from Gaza for about a kilometer-and-a-half or so, just a little bit over a mile, under Gaza. Then it came into Israel.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Actually, we have a clip. Forgive me for interrupting you, Wolf. Let's just -- let's show the clip and then we will talk about it.

BLITZER: Yes. All right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's go. No, I'm not scared. All right. All right.

OK. All right. I guess the tunnel was built for relatively short people, because, if you stand up, you're going to hit your head. I'm not that tall. But you see, it's pretty -- pretty secure, this concrete. They spent a lot of effort building this tunnel. And they say it's 14 meters or so under the ground, underground, maybe close to three kilometers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Yes, Brooke, so it goes down about 45 feet or so under the surface. The length of the tunnel is about three kilometers from Gaza into Israel, and then people could emerge.

This tunnel, by the way, the Israelis found out about it just before the current operation. They sealed off the part going into Gaza. They have sealed off the part going into Israel, but they have opened it up to show me -- they showed me and I guess they're going to show others what was going on inside, clearly a lot of effort. They said it took about two years for Hamas to build this tunnel.

They argue the only purpose this particular tunnel would have had was to allow Hamas militants to cross into Israel, kill Israelis or kidnap Israelis. Some of the tunnels that were pretty elaborate going from Gaza into Sinai that Hamas used to smuggle food, smuggle weapons, smuggle other things into Gaza, those tunnels.

But the Israelis say their priority number one is doing away with these tunnels. And even as I was down there, I only found out later, about a mile or so away, four or five Hamas militants, the IDF says, got through another tunnel, went in. There was an exchange with Israeli troops. The Hamas militants got away. The Israelis are still searching for them. They may have gotten back in the tunnel and escaped back to Gaza or they may be at large someplace in Israel right now, but it's a source of pretty considerable concern down in the southern part of Israel right now.

BALDWIN: So, to your point, since this is priority number one for the Israelis to take care of, to get rid of all of these tunnels that go into Gaza, be it through Israel or even through Egypt, how many tunnels are there, Wolf, and do they have any idea how many have been destroyed?

BLITZER: They have gotten about 30 so far.

But they think there are more. The Egyptians destroyed a lot of the tunnels, by the way, going from Sinai into Gaza. The Egyptians sealed off most of the tunnels over the past few years as well. More recently, specifically, the new government in Egypt, which has no great love for Hamas, because they see Hamas as almost an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood, and they have declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization and arrested Mohammed Morsi, the former president of Egypt, because he was associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, but Egypt is doing some -- as far as the tunnels from Gaza into Egypt, doing something very similar to what the Israelis are doing now with these tunnels going into Israel.

The Israelis, quite candidly, say they don't know how many tunnels there are. They know Hamas spent a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money building these tunnels and the Israelis say even if there is a cease-fire, they say they're going to continue to try to demolish these tunnels as much as they can.

BALDWIN: Wolf Blitzer, thank you so much for the unique look inside these tunnels. We will be watching for you in the special two-hour edition of "THE SITUATION ROOM" live tonight from Jerusalem 5:00 Eastern here on CNN. Wolf, I appreciate it very much.

Coming up, experts trying to get to the MH17 crash site in Ukraine, they are turned away for the second day in a row now. We will tell you why they couldn't make it to the area and how constant roadblocks are affecting their investigation.

Plus, one of the fugitives profiled on CNN's "THE HUNT" TV series hosted by John Walsh has just been killed in New York in a dramatic and violent standoff with police. We're live on the scene, and you will hear John Walsh's reaction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, here's an update on that breaking news that we're watching out of New York, this standoff, this dramatic standoff with police ends with the death of a fugitive and three law enforcement officers shot.

This suspect, an alleged child molester, was actually just recently profiled on a recent episode of CNN's series "THE HUNT" hosted by John Walsh, who you will hear from in a minute.

But first straight to the scene there in Manhattan we go to CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

Deb, tell me what you're learning.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Brooke, here's what we can tell you right now. The U.S. Marshals' regional fugitive task force was executing an arrest warrant here in an apartment in the West Village. This is a very busy area. It's West Fourth Street and Sixth Avenue. A lot of people in this area at this time of day.

There was a surveillance team in place. They had cited this individual, Charles Mozdir, a 32-year-old suspect, wanted and suspected of child molestation in California. He had been on the run for about two years. He aired on the John Walsh show "THE HUNT" just recently. And there were a couple of calls that were phoned in about him being in this part of Manhattan.

So the U.S. regional task force tracked him here. He was armed, and there was a firefight that happened we believe inside the apartment. That's what we are being told. U.S. Marshals, two of them, were shot, one of them in the arm. But another, a detective, NYPD, first-grade detective, was shot in the abdomen once, if not twice. All three taken to the hospital, where they are being treated.

Their injuries are not considered to be life-threatening. However, the suspect, 32-year-old Charles Mozdir, he was pronounced dead. He was killed during this shoot-out. Again, he was armed, whether he was waiting for those police, waiting for those U.S. Marshals, he clearly was ready for what was about to happen -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Deborah Feyerick, thank you so much.

This is a guy who has been wanted in connection with these child molestation charges. And it's John Walsh who for decades has really made it his life's mission to find these bad guys, especially the guys that have apparently done things with kids.

So we talked to John Walsh moments ago about his reaction to the news this suspect he had just profiled on this show has been killed. Here he was.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN WALSH, HOST, "THE HUNT": Well, I think it's -- I'm very, very concerned and worried about the police officers that were shot. I think people that forget they put their lives on the line every day.

But this was a case -- and you and I have talked about this, Brooke. These are the guys I hate the most, the people who exploit children. And this was a case we did a week ago Sunday. It's the -- we got a great tip, and the Marshals have been great partners of mine for over 30 years.

And they have teamed up with the NYPD joint fugitive task force, and they have been working this tip for a week. The tip came that he was in Lower Manhattan, possibly working at a restaurant. That didn't pan out. They surrounded the restaurant two days ago, and Mozdir didn't show up.

So then we got another tip. We re-ran the episode on Sunday night, just before the original "HUNT," and that released another tip, a cyber-tip. And they got an address on him. And so, you know, it's a very, very shocking ending. It's -- but it shows how much the public cares and how much they can help. He was on the run for almost two years. And his family was destroyed, terrified that he would come back and hurt them because they had the courage to come forward and file charges against him.

And now they don't have to worry if this guy is coming back to hurt the family or hurt their little boy. And they get justice. But it was a fantastic reaffirmation that people care, and that is a direct result of a great tip to "THE HUNT."

BALDWIN: Talk about justice, John. You and I were just talking on the show Friday. We were talking about your upcoming episode, which also fell on the 33rd anniversary of your son's disappearance and ultimate death.

We were talking about Adam and just the notion that you have made this your life's mission with, of course, "America's Most Wanted" and now "THE HUNT" here on CNN, to find these people, find these bad guys, and seek justice.

WALSH: Well, it has become my mission.

And, you know, I was wondering, and hoping that people would watch "THE HUNT" on CNN, and that they would still care. And this is proof of it. And in a way, this ends that chapter of this family's life. And this guy proved he was dangerous and insidious. He was alleged to have molested a child before this little boy. And people knew that he had guns.

And no one could find him for two years. And we decided to do the case. The Marshals had a mobile task force at "THE HUNT" hot line Sunday before last. And we all wanted to see this guy caught, and so that his family could get some peace. So this is our first capture. I'm very sorry those police officers got wounded in the line of duty. But this is one more lowlife that's off the streets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: First capture from "THE HUNT." You need to watch "THE HUNT with JOHN WALSH," airs Sunday nights, 9:00 Eastern and Pacific right here on CNN.

Coming up next, the crash site of Malaysian Air Flight 17 in Eastern Ukraine, it is still not secure, more than a week after it was shot down. Dozens of experts turned away today. How is that impacting this investigation?

Also ahead, we're learning about two Americans battling the Ebola virus. Both were in West Africa trying to control a deadly outbreak there. And now friends and families are praying for their recovery.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They care about people. They care about Liberians. And from the time that Ebola broke out up until this very day, nobody is talking about leaving.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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BALDWIN: You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And at this hour, supporters of Israel coming together for a show of solidarity in Washington. Among those in attendance, you have Susan Rice, the president's national security adviser. Also, we saw just a little while ago House Speaker John Boehner at this event.

This is put together by a group called the National Leadership Assembly for Israel. And often is the case the United States right in the middle of all things Middle East. Here is Secretary of State John Kerry speaking a little earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Any process to resolve the crisis in Gaza in a lasting and meaningful way must lead to the disarmament of Hamas and all terrorist groups.

And we will work closely with Israel and regional partners and the international community in support of this goal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So John Kerry saying disarm Hamas, Hamas being the main power broker in Gaza.

But let's talk for a moment strictly about the U.S. role there in this part of the world.

So, joining me, "CROSSFIRE" host Newt Gingrich, former speaker of the House, and actually author and journalist Peter Beinart. He's a CNN political commentator.

Welcome to both of you.

And, Newt Gingrich, you're first up at bat. As we are talking about the role of the United States, let me just take you back to 2006. Israel had ended its Gaza occupation, tore down those Jewish settlements. President Bush pushed hard to hold an election there. Hamas won.

How much of the problems, and, Peter, same question to you in a minute, but, Newt, how much of the problems now date back to that 2000 election that put Hamas in power?

NEWT GINGRICH, CO-HOST, "CROSSFIRE": Well, that's a part of it. It's been a bipartisan confusion about the nature of Hamas and the nature of this kind of a war.

As long as Hamas is able to operate and retain their commitment to the destruction of Israel, you can't possibly have a peace process. And until they're decisively defeated, they're not ever going to give that up. I think there is a real problem here. It's a bipartisan problem. As you point out, it certainly goes back into the Bush administration.

It deeply, I think, affects the State Department's analysis, which continually tries to find, as they did over the weekend, by the way, with Secretary Kerry, who changed his tune today, but over the weekend, they were pushing for a truce that did not include demilitarization of Hamas and they got very powerful pushback from virtually everybody, demanding that Hamas must be demilitarized if there is going to be a serious truce.

BALDWIN: Peter, is the demilitarization of Hamas possible looking forward as you talk about a permanent cease-fire, and also do you think much of the -- what they're dealing with today goes back to those elections in 2006?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, I would love to see Hamas demilitarized. I loathe Hamas. I was in Israel with my 6-year- old daughter for the first week of this war. We were in shelters. A Hamas bus bombing killed a close friend of mine.

But there was a mistake in the question you asked. Israel did not end its occupation of Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Israel's occupation has remained to this day, according to the United States government, because Israel controls access to Gaza by air, land -- by air and sea and with Egypt by land.

Israel makes it almost impossible for people to export goods out of Gaza, makes it almost impossible for people to travel out of Gaza to go and study, for instance, or even sometimes to -- for medical attention. This is also an important context of understanding what's going on here.

Again, I take a back seat to no one in my hostility to Hamas. But you cannot keep two million people from having basic movement without expecting that those people are going to have very genuine grievances.

BALDWIN: Speaking to somebody representing Palestinians earlier, he said, listen, Brooke, number two, we want peace. He was saying to me the number one priority is, to your point, getting access to the outside world, eliminating those border crossings, the two in Israeli and the one there, the Rafah border crossing in Egypt.

But, Newt, we're talking Hamas. Let's also, though, focus now on -- I want to talk about specifically President Obama and Benjamin Netanyahu, because they are -- their relations, we will call it frosty. Do you think too much is made of that?

GINGRICH: No, I think that there is a enormous gap. And let me just go back to this question about access to Gaza.

We now know that much of the concrete which has gone into Gaza supposedly for humanitarian purposes went into building tunnels under the border in order to attack Israel. We now know that Hamas may have accumulated up to 12,000 rockets in a period when they were supposedly being blockaded.

So I think the challenge for the people of Gaza is, as long as Hamas is viable, it is virtually impossible to end the blockade. And I think this becomes a question for Palestinians. The difference is, President Obama wants cease-fires and the evidence over the weekend was that he was pressuring Secretary Kerry to desperately reach out for a cease-fire without demilitarization.

Benjamin Netanyahu wants to eliminate the ability of Hamas to fire missiles and to build tunnels. And as prime minister of Israel, he has an enormous obligation to the people of Israel to try to protect them from what they have just gone through with well over 2,000 rockets fired into Israel in the last couple weeks.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Peter. I know you were shaking your head.

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: With all due respect, some of what Newt is saying is not correct.

There are aspects of this blockade that have nothing to do with security whatsoever. Preventing Gaza's fishermen from fishing more than three miles off the coast does not have to do with security. Preventing Gaza businessmen from exporting agriculture to Israel and the West Bank is not a security threat. Preventing Gazan students from going to study in the West Bank and around the rest of the world, in fact, these things threaten Israel security.

They produce the very rage and despair that Hamas and other jihadist groups feed off of to continue their war.

GINGRICH: Look, I'm not going to defend some of the aspects of the Israeli approach.

(CROSSTALK)

GINGRICH: But I would point out that even Egypt is now engaged in stopping things going into Gaza. Even the Egyptian government is more anti-Hamas.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: Go ahead, Peter, respond. I know it's tough.

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: Egypt is not a country that could care much at all for the Palestinians' welfare either.

I would hope that we and Israel, a country that I love, would hold itself to a higher standard than the dictatorship in Egypt. I want Israel to defeat Hamas. But Israel is not going to defeat Hamas and get the Palestinian people to turn against Hamas unless Israel stops those aspects of the collective punishment of Gaza which are not legitimate security means.

And some of them -- portions of this blockade, unfortunately, are not about security. In fact, they hurt Israeli security.

BALDWIN: Peter, let me ask you this, because we know President Obama and Secretary Kerry both have -- they have decried civilian casualties, and there have been many in Gaza. Both continue to emphasize that Israel has a right to defend itself. Do you think, with what you're hearing coming out of Washington, do you think Netanyahu, do you think Israel is happy with the support they're getting there?

BEINART: I think this military operation is very popular in Israel. Military operations in general tend to be very popular early on.

But a military operation is not a substitute for a political strategy. Israel does not have a political strategy against Hamas. Its political strategy should be to show that those Palestinians who accept Israel's right to exist and practice nonviolence, like Mahmoud Abbas, like Salam Fayyad used to, that you have to make them winners.

When you show the Palestinians that those leaders like Abbas get only increased settlement growth, even after they have repeatedly accepted Israel's right to exist and agreed to prosecute the Palestinian struggle nonviolently, you are making Hamas' life much easier.

To defeat Hamas politically, you have to make those Palestinians who accept Israel and practice nonviolence into winners. This government, sadly, in Israel, has done the opposite.

BALDWIN: Newt Gingrich, final thought.

GINGRICH: Well, look, I think that to suggest that people who have fired over 2,000 missiles in the last couple weeks, most of those missiles, by the way, designed as terror weapons, because they're very inaccurate, and the only people they can hit are civilians -- they're not anti-military.

You look at the whole framework right now and ask yourself, if the United States had a neighbor firing 2,000 missiles into our country...

BEINART: But we're not occupying any of our neighbors.

GINGRICH: ... what would our reaction be?

BEINART: We're not occupying any of our neighbors.

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: ... Israel's right to self-defense, but the analogy is wrong, because America is not occupying Mexico or Canada.

GINGRICH: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

GINGRICH: ... far too much burden -- I think you put far too much burden on Israel and far too little burden on those who openly say they want to destroy Israel. I think that's an enormous challenge.

BALDWIN: Peter Beinart and Newt Gingrich, gentlemen, thank you both very much. I appreciate it. And we will stay on this, because the next question is, what would Jesus do in Gaza?

That is actually the headline, that's the title of a piece written by my next guest. You will hear what he thinks and how this also involves the pope.

Plus, the inner workings, the minutia, the behind the scenes here of Russian President Vladimir Putin. What does he do in his free time? What is he deathly afraid of, and why doesn't he drink milk when he's not home? You will hear from a man who can answer all those questions and more next.

You're watching CNN.

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