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Israel Bombards Gaza Targets; Ukraine Fires Missiles at Rebels; Kerry's Blunder; Punish Putin

Aired July 29, 2014 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

And we begin with something we've been watching. Moments ago, possible - let me say that again, possible new amendment towards a Mideast cease-fire. A top Israeli official tells CNN that Israel is, quote, "prepared" for a cease-fire. But, again, nothing has been agreed upon, at least as of yet.

A strong dose of caution is in order today. We have seen a lot of proposals come and go. Earlier today, in fact, Hamas rejected a Palestinian proposed truce. And all of this maneuvering, it follows the most intense aerial bombardment we have seen since Israel began striking targeting in Gaza three weeks ago. A fuel storage tank at Gaza's only power plant took a major hit. Israel insists it was not a target. You see it over my shoulder here, thick plumes of black smoke, massive flames shooting into the sky for hours. Power, as a result, is out across much of Gaza City. An energy officials say the plant could be off line for a year. And it was just one of many areas damaged in what was a very long night in Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Israel military has accused Hamas of -

We do have to hit the ground. Hit the ground very quickly. We've already taken the windows out of this side of the building. (EXPLETIVE DELETED)

If you give me two seconds, I'm going to look out. And I can't tell you exactly where that was. But if any of my colleagues have got information in the next few moments, I will let you know. But another huge explosion going on in the vicinity of our offices in central Gaza right now. If you'd been with us just about a minute earlier, Poppy, you would have seen the same -

OK, I'm going to move out of the way, Poppy, and we're going to get a camera shot -

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. OK, let's stay with Karl Penhaul - let's have him move as far away as he can. Folks, you can see how incredibly close that blast was to Karl Penhaul.

PENHAUL: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Karl Penhaul for us at night, all evening and through today in Gaza City.

Israel's target list obviously moving far beyond those border tunnels we focused on. The Hamas television station, homes of top Hamas leaders, even mosques that Israel says were used to store weapons, targets here.

Let me bring in CNN military analyst and retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

General, welcome back.

Beginning with something that Karl Penhaul and I have discussed multiple times is it's nightfall over Gaza. We are actually seeing behind him, you know, the beginnings of the strategy that I'd love for you to explain to me, because what happens here is Israel picks a target, waits for night to fall. You see these illumination flares sent up in the sky. And then what happens?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, and then they hit the target. And what has to happen first, Brooke, is, there's some type of clearance operation that has to go on where the target is cleared. Now most of the time --

BALDWIN: What does that mean?

HERTLING: Well, most of the time it means that the target is ready to be hit, that there has been some kind of emphasis on no -- as little collateral damage as possible. But what we were seeing last night, as Karl was reporting, is they had drones above the area. So that becomes the clearance technique because sometimes you just don't have someone on the ground who can say, hey, that target is ready. There's no potential for civilian casualties. Let's hit it. And it's not 100 percent accurate.

The other thing that I'd mention is, the individuals flying those F- 16s, I've had the opportunity to take a couple of training rides in F- 16s. That's a tough flight (ph) --

BALDWIN: You've had to make some tough calls yourself, correct?

HERTLING: You do. Yes, I had to make some tough calls in combat when striking targets. In one instance I remember in Iraq where we saw a mosque being loaded with weapons, people firing from the roof of the minaret (ph). In that kind of situation, the laws of war dissipate a little bit and you say, we've got to hit that target to protect our soldiers.

In other cases, when you think you have a clear target and you go in with an F-16 strike, something might occur. Something happened to me where we saw at the last minute about ready to launch a strike some individuals coming out of the building. We called the strike off. That's difficult to do at the same time flying an airplane, trying avoiding missiles that might be fired at you, doing it in the dark, finding out where your wing man is.

This is not a video game. It's difficult to do. And the Israel air force has the mission of destroying the target. They're doing the very best they can to clear those targets before they strike them, but that's extremely tough to do in an area the size of Gaza which has an immense population and a problem with people not being able to move around.

BALDWIN: General, so then let's flip it and talk about Hamas, because we know they were given the chance for a pause in violence. They reject a 24 hour cease-fire. What is their strategy here because they are out gunned?

HERTLING: Yes. And you know what, you can't apply the rational actor theory in many places in the Middle East. I think they want to continue to bring Israel into their land, work the strategic messaging campaign that Karl has been talking about and that Israel is the bad guy. They continue to strike targets. They continue not to be concerned with civilian casualties. And that's just not the case. It's just difficult to destroy things that are being launched into Israel from Gaza without civilian casualties. It's unfortunate, as they have said, but it's warfare.

One of the things I'd like to point out, Brooke, I was told before I went to Iraq the last time by a mentor of mine that, hey, you can't win a war just by killing a lot of people. There has to be political and economic discussions. And I think Israel has attempted to do that on several occasions and has been rebuffed. Unfortunately, you've got a population that's behind the army and the movement of the Israeli government, and it's unfortunate but every time they have attempted to cease, there's just been more rockets coming their way. So it's very difficult to engage between Israel and Hamas and I think that's the real issue in this problem.

BALDWIN: Again, a senior Israeli official telling us they are prepared for a cease-fire as we await Hamas and all the brokering and all of the machinations behind the scenes with multiple countries, some who are friends with Hamas, and some of whom are friends with Israel.

General Mark Hertling, thank you so much for coming on and, as always, your expertise here.

Meantime, happening right now, let's talk about the other major story. Tougher sanctions slapped against Russia over the conflict in Ukraine. And more could be dished out in the coming hours as the U.S. accuses Russia of violating a 27-year-old missile treaty from the Reagan/Gorbachev era. Secretary of State John Kerry today specifically condemning Russia's actions in Ukraine, calling on the president, Vladimir Putin, and the pro-Russian rebels to scale back the fighting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: President Putin can make a huge difference here if he chooses to. And we and our European partners will take additional measures and impose wider sanctions on key sections of the Russian economy if that is what we must do. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It was just after Kerry stepped off that podium that a European Union official confirmed to us here at CNN that sanctions and mostly economic ones are being expanded against Russian individuals and companies. But the conflict in eastern Ukraine, this is not a one sided battle here because we have learned that Ukrainian forces, their military have escalated the firing by firing short range ballistic missiles at the rebels. This is the first time a weapon of this magnitude has been used in this conflict.

So let's talk about that significance. Let me bring in our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr and also our correspondent at the White House, Michelle Kosinski.

But, Barbara, to you first. In all of your reporting you're getting today, tell me more about these ballistic missiles. What are they capable of? How does this change the conflict?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, these are short range ballistic missiles launched from the ground against ground targets. They go about 50 miles but they have a 1,000 pound war head. That makes them the heaviest, most lethal weapons used in this conflict to date.

Why have the Ukraine's turned to these weapons? Well, they've had a number of their aircraft shot down by surface to air missiles. That, of course, is what brought down MH17 in that area in eastern Ukraine. So in order to stay out of the kill zone of those surface to air missiles, they can't fly their aircraft as much as they want against the separatists. They turn now to these short range ballistic missiles. It keeps them out of the air. It keeps them in the -- on the ground, but it escalates the ground combat.

It's a signal, perhaps, that the Ukrainians are feeling they are pushing back against the separatists and the Russians, their reaction so far, they have been quiet about this, but they have been continuing to ship heavy weapons across the border to the separatists, clearly feeling the pressure of what the Ukrainians are doing. By the way, the Ukrainian government officially says it did not launch these ballistic missiles but U.S. intelligence, U.S. spy satellites, we are told by several officials, saw the whole thing.

Brooke.

BALDWIN: Just got word in my ear from my executive producer, just echoed what you just -- reiterating your point. It was the foreign minister from Ukraine saying, absolutely not, they did not deploy these short range missiles. But again, that's the word coming in to CNN there.

All the while, when we talk about this war zone, Michelle Kosinski, and talking to people on the ground in eastern Ukraine, I mean that's the issue. That's why these - the Dutch and the Australian investigators, for the third day, can't even get to this crash site. And here, as Barbara pointed out, it's the most lethal form of weaponry that the Ukrainian military have used thus far in the conflict. What does the White House have to say about all of this?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that's interesting. I mean they didn't want to say anything specific about this very new reporting. It's clear that they wanted to gather more information on what happened as well. But what they did say -- what I found interesting about it was just that they really called on Russia. They said that Ukraine's actions throughout this reflected Russia's escalation of the conflict. So clearly pinning it on Russia seemingly no matter what Ukraine is doing at this point, even if it does involve a weapon of this magnitude.

And that's a lot different than what the White House's take has been today at least on the conflict in the Middle East, calling on both sides to de-escalate, both sides to put aside their differences. But when it comes to Russia and Ukraine, clearly the onus is on Russia. You know, the White House has repeatedly mentioned how much Ukraine has done to try to help the situation. Their cease-fire attempts, changing the government, et cetera, et cetera. But repeatedly saying that Russia has done nothing to try to de-escalate the situation. So even if this is what has happened there, the White House is firmly on the side of Ukraine, Brooke.

BALDWIN: OK. Michelle Kosinski and Barbara Starr, thank you both very much.

Just ahead, even though we are hearing U.S. sanctions could come, additional U.S. sanctions could come as early as today against Russia, my next guest says there's only one way to punish Vladimir Putin and it involves one of his favorite things, sports. Hear his explanation on that.

And as Israel launches its biggest attack against Hamas yet, I'll talk live with someone who says John Kerry made a big mistake in how he's handled these cease-fire talks. And this blunder has both the Israelis and Palestinians unhappy with the secretary of state.

You're watching CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Just into us here at CNN. A body found in the wheel well of an American Air Force jet that landed in Germany. We are told, this is a quote, "apparent stow away." The jet is a C-130. The body discovered during an inspection. The plane had stopped in a couple of places in Africa before Germany. And we're learning that the Pentagon says the body has been tested and there's no indication of any kind of communicable diseases. Updates as we get them.

And now let me take you back to the war in Gaza and some pictures. This is the evening sky right here over Gaza City, which last night rumbled under furious bombing by Israel. Some of the heaviest bombing thus far. So much for John Kerry. So much for the cease-fire plea he had issued just one hour before. No two ways about it, John Kerry taking his lumps. He acknowledged as much today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Look, I've taken hits before in politics. I'm not worried about that. This is not about me. This is about Israel and Israel's right to defend itself. And our strong support for Israel's right to defend itself. But about whether or not there is a way forward that could avoid loss of soldiers for Israel and the loss of civilians in everywhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Talks about taking his political hits. He's really hearing it from U.S. ally Russia - excuse me, U.S. ally Israel. Forgive me. The direct quote, "Kerry ruined everything." This is an Israeli columnist writing yesterday about the secretary's standing cease-fire plan, which unidentified officials in Jerusalem reportedly derided as, quote/unquote, "a strategic terrorist attack." That is what Israelis called Kerry's peace plan, a strategic terrorist attack.

David Ignatius knows this territory better than pretty much anyone else. He's a long-time correspondent, now associate editor and columnist for "The Washington Post."

David Ignatius, first of all, welcome to you.

DAVID IGNATIUS, ASSOCIATE EDITOR, "WASHINGTON POST": Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And we wanted to begin with this piece in "The Post." The headline is, "John Kerry's big blunder in seeking an Israel/Gaza cease-fire." Question number one to you, what is the big blunder?

IGNATIUS: The mistake that I think Secretary Kerry made when he began his effort to get a cease-fire 10 days ago roughly was that after meeting initial resistance with this idea of mediating through Egypt, rather than double down on that, he instead turned to two countries that really are allies of Hamas, Turkey and Qatar, and began working with them to try to get the cease-fire. In the end, he didn't get the cease-fire. It fell apart very quickly last Friday and over the weekend as we know with this horrific war continuing.

But in some ways more damaging, he, in the process, undercut not simply Israel, which is furious with him as you said in your introduction, but also moderate Palestinians who had hoped that the Egypt approach would work, and other key friends of the United States in the Middle East, such as Saudi Arabia, such as Jordan, such as the United Arab Emirates. I've been talking to diplomats the last two days and I hear real unhappiness with the way that Secretary Kerry went about this.

BALDWIN: So it's the issue in going to Hamas', we'll just call them friends, Turkey and Qatar, and to your point, solidifying the role of Hamas is what Israelis are saying. Also in your piece here you make multiple points saying that Secretary Kerry has erred in seeking a quick cease-fire. They want an end to the violence. I guess my question would be, how much time is there? I mean how long, David, for example, before Hamas is all but wiped out because that's really, as so many have suggested, that is the ultimate goal from Israel. IGNATIUS: Well, Israel has to decide whether it's prepared, as I say

in a column, for a campaign that takes months, not the weeks that it's taken, that effectively means Israeli re-occupation of Gaza. I don't think there's much appetite for that.

What I said in the column is that I think Secretary Kerry understands that the key here is to move to a new situation, not back to the old status quo, where Israel doesn't have to fight a war every two years, Palestinian civilians are not subject to the kind of bombing and difficulty that is their daily lot during this war.

BALDWIN: Routine. Yes.

IGNATIUS: And the way to do that is to empower moderate Palestinians and make them the center of this negotiations. It's not generally understood, but last April, Hamas agreed that the moderate Palestinian Authority, headed by Mahmoud Abbas, should come in as the governing authority in Gaza and that's the way Secretary Kerry might have tried to negotiate this.

BALDWIN: Secretary Kerry, President Obama, when they've come out publicly, made statements, both have essentially called on Israel to inflict fewer deaths on the civilians in Gaza. But the thrust of their statements, David, and it's been now three weeks since we've been watching this, all this fighting, is that - are the U.S. friend, being Israel, absolutely has the right to defend itself. And that really seems to be what they're emphasizing. If you are Palestinian, whether you are in Gaza, whether you are in the West Bank, wherever, does it seem as though the deck is stacked when the mediator, being the United States, happen to be your enemy's biggest ally? Are you following me there?

IGNATIUS: Well, if you listen to the commentary from Israel the last several days, you would not think that John Kerry and the United States are Israel's best friends and protectors. They're accusing Kerry of betrayal, of siding with Hamas and Hamas' friends against Israel. I think Palestinians are right to demand a change from a situation they've been living in.

The reality is that can only happen if Gaza is effectively demilitarized of heavy weapons. And the question is, how to use U.S. diplomacy to move in that direction. That's the opportunity Secretary Kerry had. I hope he takes it up again because honestly that's the way that this nightmare is going to end.

BALDWIN: David Ignatius from "The Washington Post." I appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much, talking about your column today.

IGNATIUS: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: And just ahead, even though Israel wants to, to David's point, obliterate Hamas, demilitarize Hamas, find out why terror experts say it could actually make the situation worse if the militant group does go away, if they do disappear.

Plus my next guest says Vladimir Putin uses money and sports as weapons and the only way to punish Putin is to take away the World Cup in a couple of years. But would that really work? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We told you just a couple of minutes ago about the escalation of sanctions against Russia. European officials putting pressure on President Vladimir Putin, essentially trying to force his hand to do something in this escalating conflict that we're watching in eastern Ukraine. So far he's offered words of condemnation but has done nothing to convince the pro-Russian rebels to lay down their arms if only to give investigators safe passage to the site of the MH17 wreckage. They've been trying for three days now. Still can't get through. And some are asking, sanctions haven't worked so far, so why not try something different. Hit Vladimir Putin where it really hurts. For example, strip Russia of its World Cup hosting duties in a couple of years. And someone who believes just that, Tunku Varadarajan, national affairs correspondent with "The Daily Beast."

Tunku, welcome.

Tunku, are you with me?

TUNKU VARADARAJAN, NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, "THE DAILY BEAST": Oh, yes, I can hear you now.

BALDWIN: OK, good deal. Let's talk soccer because this is something that's been floated out there in the past among a couple of my guests. And you wrote this whole piece on, you know, the best way to punish Putin, no World Cup. I mean, soccer? Why do you think this would be effective?

VARADARAJAN: Well, I think we have to - we can't foreclose on any option. We have to try every kind of economic sanction. But I think in addition to that we, Brooke - I can't hear you. Sorry.

BALDWIN: I'm just listening to you. You just can continue on, sir.

VARADARAJAN: OK. We can't -- as I said, we can't foreclosure on any option. Economic sanctions are well and good. The question is, how effective will they be? Putin can turn the narrative of economic sanctions on their head. He can tell the Russian people, this is just another example of the world ganging up on Russians. What we need to do is find options that don't make the Russian people hurt but options that make Putin hurt, that hurt Putin's pride, that hurt Putin's ego, that hurt Putin's status.

BALDWIN: Ego, I think you hit it there. I've heard that before. And I think, you know, I know he loves hockey and he loves his soccer. Tunku, let me just quote your article in "The Daily Beast." You write, "Putin preys on the fact that the west thinks money and sport are neutral, or at least civilizing influences. So when Russian money comes to Wall Street or the city of London, it stops being political for the west." You go on, "but for Putin, money and sport are tools or weapons." So given this value that Vladimir Putin places on sport, if you take his World Cup, talking about the current conflict right now in Ukraine, how would he respond? VARADARAJAN: Well, I think we need to - we need to see how he'd

respond, but I think we can't try to second guess his response and then say, oh, no, he might do this, therefore we must not do that. I think we've got to make sure that we deploy every weapon in our quiver that will hurt him. And it's clear that economic sanctions, even if they do hurt, will take a very long time to work through the system. The oligarchs will survive. They have - they have vast layers of fat to survive economic sanctions. The Russian people will survive because Russia is not a democracy and Putin is not responsive to public opinion. So the only person that we need to target is Putin himself. And if we - if we make it clear to Putin that he isn't going to be able to have this propaganda Godsend, this Ponzi scheme of pride that is the World Cup in his own backyard, which he's going to sell to his people as a validation of his rule and of his achievements, then, you know, we're going to make him think again. And, you know, I think it would be cosmic justice, as I pointed out, to take the World Cup away from Russia and give it to the Netherlands, 200 of whose citizens died in the MH17 flight that was shot down cold bloodedly by men who swear their allegiance to Putin.

BALDWIN: And how beautiful those days we watched them honor those victims as they were finally taken from the crash site on to the Netherlands.

Tunku Varadarajan, thank you so much, from "The Daily Beast," for joining me today. Appreciate you.

VARADARAJAN: Thank you.

BALDWIN: Just ahead, as the pope gets emotional over the violence in the Middle East, what would Jesus do in Gaza? That's actually the title of a column written by my next guest. You'll hear what he thinks, where he's going with that.