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Major Developments in Israel/Gaza Conflict; If Hamas Crippled, Could ISIS Take Its Place; Pope Francis Speaks Out on Israel/Hamas Conflict; Columnist Says Jesus Would Weapon Over Gaza Conflict; Most Intense Bombardment on Gaza Since Conflict Began

Aired July 29, 2014 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Tunku Varadarajan, thank you so much, from "The Daily Beast," for joining me today. Appreciate it.

Just ahead, as the pope gets emotional over the violence in the Middle East, "What Would Jesus Do in Gaza?" That's actually the title of the column written by my next guest. You'll hear what he thinks, where he's going with that.

Next, if not Hamas, then who? If the Israeli operation in Gaza succeeds in crippling the militants, could a group like the ISIS terrorists in Iraq fill the vacuum and take its place? We'll discuss that.

You're watching CNN.

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BALDWIN: Let me pass along some news just into us here at CNN as we take a look at these live pictures of the White House. We have just learned, in about 15 minutes from now, we will be hearing from the president, from President Obama. We don't know a lot about what specifically he'll be speaking about. We know he'll be making remarks on Ukraine. Keep in mind, the context of these remarks, we have been reporting that the U.S. will be slapping additional sanctions against Russia. So, again, President Obama talking about Ukraine from the White House at 2:50 p.m. eastern. We'll take it live.

Happening right now, a couple of major developments in the conflict between Israel and Hamas. We have pictures taken of Gaza's only power plant -- here you go -- after it was hit by shells. Massive black plumes of smoke and flames here, shooting out into the blue sky. Energy officials say the plant could be shut down for at least a year. All of this, as Hamas reject as cease-fire request coming in from Palestinian leaders on the West Bank. There are a lot of moving parts in the conflict. I know it's tough to keep track who is who.

We asked Paula Hancocks to explain Hamas and what precisely its leaders want.

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PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the fighting rages in Gaza between Israel and Hamas, let's take a step back and look at what Hamas is and what it wants.

Hamas is the current ruling party in Gaza and has been since 2006 when it won a landslide in democratic elections. In fact, at the time, it became one of the first Islamist parties around the world to win political office. But much of the West considers Hamas to be a terrorist organization.

The group was born in 1987 just at the start of the first intifada or Palestinian uprising.

(GUNFIRE)

HANCOCKS (on camera): Now the group's founders wanted it to be able to deliver social welfare programs to the residents of Gaza, which at this particular point number about 1.8 million people. But then a year in, it published its charter, and within that charter the Hamas was calling for the destruction of Israel. Hamas started a suicide bombing campaign against Israel in the 1990s.

So what does Hamas want? First of all, Hamas wants an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and a right of return for Palestinians who were forced from their homes and became refugees in 1948 when the state of Israel was created.

Secondly, Hamas wants a lifting of the Israeli blockade on Gaza. Israel, at this point, controls the airspace and the waters of Gaza. Along with Egypt, it controls the borders. Israel says that is necessary to try and cope with a more militarized Hamas.

Thirdly, Hamas wants the release of around 6,500 Palestinian prisoners currently in Israeli detention. They believe they are being held illegally.

Then there's the question as to whether Hamas is simply in this fight because it has nothing to lose. Living conditions for almost two million people in one of the most densely-populated territories on earth are very tough and they are not improving. Employment hovers around the 50 percent level, and that's before this latest round of fighting.

Hamas also lost one of its major allies, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The new Egyptian regime considers Hamas to be an enemy.

Nevertheless, some experts say that simply by fighting against Israel Hamas appears to be standing up for the rights of the Palestinian people, and it is improving its popularity.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Paula Hancocks there with that.

Hamas may be popular among some Palestinians but, as she pointed out, it's despised in Israel. And if Hamas was destroyed, could an even worse group rise to power, a group even more nefarious, more determined to destroy Israel?

Bob Baer, a CNN national security analyst, a former CIA operative, joins me from Irvine, California.

Bob Baer, first things first. If one of Israel's goals is to demilitarize Hamas, how realistic is that?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I mean, the way they are going today, they could probably end up decapitated that organization and destroying it. It is an organization that was popularly elected, that it has a fairly, in these terms, responsible leadership. But if you decapitated Hamas and just leave it open, I think what we would get is something close to al Qaeda. This poverty and war tends to radicalize people and this is what I'm afraid will happen in Gaza.

We have to go back to 1982. Bin Laden said he really start this movement when he watched the Israelis bomb Beirut. That gave him the idea of al Qaeda. It first started in Afghanistan but then went international. This is what has a lot of people afraid.

BALDWIN: Is that what you believe that's what will happen? If Hamas is, to use your words, decapitated, would it be -- who will fill the vacuum? Do you think it will be al Qaeda cells?

BAER: You would get some sort of chaos like Somalia, and you'd see some really radical groups, jihadis, call them what you want. And they would be more likely to start a terrorism campaign, for instance, inside Israel proper, go back to car bombings and things like that. So I think the violence would get more chaotic and it could affect larger parts of the world.

BALDWIN: I mean, Hamas, they are the ones that are, obviously, fighting Israel and have been for years. Does Israel -- they have a lot of power. Does Israel have a choice but to try to work with them, or clearly, as we've been seeing, the goal is just destroy?

BAER: Well, the Israelis can't live, of course, with their own destruction. That's what Hamas still calls for. I don't know how serious they are about it. The Israelis think they are very serious. And Israel can't live with the right of return, which would bring millions of the Palestinians back, would inundate Israel. So there's two conditions the Israelis won't agree to under any terms.

Is there a more moderate Hamas? I don't know. I spent a lot of time with them. They are fairly, you know -- they know what they want and they will go after it. This is why they started this war.

BALDWIN: OK/

Bob Baer, thank you so much.

Coming up next, "What Would Jesus Do in Gaza?" That's the title written of a column written by my next guest. You will hear what he thinks and what the pope actually has to do with that.

Later on CNN, a relatively low number of casualties from Hamas rockets in Israel attributed to Israel's high-tech Iron Dome defense system. How does it work? We'll take you there live. Stay with us. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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BALDWIN: Welcome back. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Multiple world leaders begged for a stop in this violence and the fighting between Hamas and Israel. But the most eloquent plea to end this conflict may have come this past Sunday by a man who is neither Israeli nor Palestinian. I'm talking about Pope Francis. The Catholic leader was speaking about the violence when he appeared to get emotional.

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POPE FRANCIS (through translation): Never war. Never war. I'm thinking above all of children who are deprived of the hope of a worthwhile life, a future; dead children, wounded children, mutilated children, orphaned children; children whose toys are things left over from war; children who don't know how to smile. Please stop. I ask you, with all my heart, it's time to stop. Stop, please.

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BALDWIN: Pope Francis on Sunday may have wept. "And a lot of people believe that Jesus, too, would be weeping today," those words from Christopher Dickey in an article entitled "What Would Jesus Do in Gaza?" There tears of Pope Francis point the way.

Christopher is a foreign editor from "The Dailey Beast." Joins me from Paris.

Chris Dickey, nice to see you again.

Just in reading your piece, this isn't the first appeal for calm and peace in a conflict like this. But do you think, coming from Pope Francis there, at the Vatican, do you think this can make a difference this time?

CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, FOREIGN EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, I think Pope Francis is probably the most charismatic leader of the world today. And I think people will listen to his emotions as well as to his words. Cardinal O'Malley, of Boston, told me not too long that this is a pope, this is a man who speaks in gestures and his tears themselves were kind of a gesture. I don't think he was acting. I think they were absolutely heartfelt. But I think for the pope, the pontiff, the head of a billion Catholics, to stand up in front of the world and to blink back tears as he talked about children who can no longer smile, who never even learned to smile, I think that's a message that people do begin to listen to. Maybe not enough people, but I think a lot of people do listen. BALDWIN: Let's talk more about the listening. You write this in the

column: "But when Palestinians did protest peacefully, when they did march, when they did endure the clubs of the dreaded Israeli police, who paid attention to their moral authority. In truth, almost nobody. Not the international press, not the public, not Obama."

You talk about the peace and quiet. Do you think now what we're seeing, is this the only real way Hamas can get anyone to care, to pay attention, to listen?

DICKEY: Well, there's a terrible trap there. You have people -- you have thousands of Palestinians, maybe millions of Palestinians, who wish they could protest peacefully and get some sort of result. And yet, it hasn't happened. It's never worked for them. Partly, it doesn't work for them because there have always been firebrands among them who say, no, we got to take to it violence. We have to do something terrible here or nobody will pay attention. I'm not sure that's the case.

Just recently, there was a march of 10,000 people on the West Bank in support of the Palestinians of Gaza. Now, if that had not degenerated into violence, if those 10,000 people sat down and faced off the Israeli troops instead of throwing rocks, have kids throwing rocks at them, creating a situation where the Israelis opened fire on them, and could justify opening fire on them, then I think, you know, that might have had a different effect.

But it takes enormous moral force to launch those kinds of protests and to pursue them. And it also takes the world paying attention in the way that frankly we haven't paid attention, especially in the Palestinian conflict for a long time.

In other place, in Ukraine, protesters were able to overthrow the government and create a situation that's now very difficult. But they overthrew the government. Protesters overthrew the government in Egypt. Again, we don't have a great situation there, but at least they were able to effect change. In the Palestinian conflict, they have never been able to effect change.

BALDWIN: We've seen a lot of children deaths in the Palestinian conflict, in Gaza, for example. And it was the pope speaking about children when he got emotional on Sunday. And I'm wondering, Christopher, bigger picture, and thinking of previous popes, how often does the world see a pope weep?

DICKEY: I don't think the world, in my experience, has seen a pope weep like this. I've seen a lot of popes, going back to John XXIII, and I've seen them get angry and be kindly. And I've seen them wax a little bit emotional at critical moments. But I've never seen anything quite like this.

You know, this was not an off-the-cuff remark. The pope was reading a passage that he had written down. And as he got to those words about the children who couldn't smile, you can see him blinking back the tears. And I think he was genuinely moved. I think he hopes that we'll all be moved. But I think he, the man, Pope Francis, I think he was genuinely moved. And I think, in his prayers, he is hoping that something can to be done to end the terrible violence all over the world, and not only in Gaza, also in the Ukraine, also in Iraq.

I think we all have the feeling that the world is, to use a phrase, "just going to hell" right now, and the pope would like people to try and pull it back from the brink.

BALDWIN: Chris Dickey, thank you.

Coming up, CNN's Sara Sidner joins me live, speaking in the conflict in the Mideast. She just came from a border town where a rocket flew over her head. Our special coverage continues.

Also, any minute now, President Obama will be speaking live from the White House on the escalating situation between Ukraine and Russia, as Ukraine denies it has fired those short-range missiles at pro-Russian rebels, the same group suspected of taking down Malaysia Airline flight 17. So what will the president of the United States say? We're watching. Stay with me.

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BALDWIN: It is night fall along the border between Israel and Gaza.

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BALDWIN: It may be dark, but clearly anything but quiet. These photos were taken last night. And tonight, we are watching some of the most intense aerial bombardment since the conflict began July 7th.

Let's go to Sara Sidner. She has just returned from the border between Israel and Gaza.

Sara, at one point, I understand, you had a rocket flying over your head.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, we did. We were standing actually fairly close to the Iron Dome missile defense system, near Ashkelon, and, as you know, Ashkelon borders Gaza. So we could see plumes of smoke rising for much of the day out of Gaza. We were also standing next to the Iron Dome a missile defense system when, suddenly, overhead, we could see that strange flash of light that we've come to recognize as a rocket, and we all took cover as so many people have to do on this side of the border.

We have also heard a siren that's gone off at least 2019 vicinity of where we were, three or four kilometers away from where we were, and then also in the two towns. Definitely, sirens going off. Definitely, we've seen rockets coming in. And there have, of course, already been some deaths here in Israel

today. At least 10 people are confirmed dead. We know that people are sick and tired of the fear that they feel every time those sirens go off here. And certainly, that fear shared in a major way in Gaza. And you've seen the pictures yourself from there.

But giving the perspective of here, we talked to a lot of people about this, and they are really, really fearful, but also they want this to end for good. And so they want the Prime Minister Netanyahu and his army to stay in there and basically root out any of the tunnels and missiles that exist inside Gaza.

BALDWIN: The fear is palpable in two parts of the world. We're watching these two separate conflicts, what's happening between Israel and Gaza, what's happening between Russia and Ukraine.

Sara Sidner, thank you.

Speaking of what is happening in Russia and Ukraine, just a quick reminder, we're watching the White House because we now know President Obama will step out on the South Lawn. He will speak specifically on the situation, this escalating situation between Ukraine and Russia. All the while, just the backdrop of this, Ukraine is denying that its military has fired those short-range missiles. What will the president say? We'll watch. Stay right here. Special coverage after this quick break.

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