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Palestinians Killed in Attack Near Another U.N. School in Gaza; Roughly Half a Million People in Ohio, Michigan Can't Drink Their Water; Is Qatar Ally or Enemy?; Religion Key in Israel-Gaza Conflict

Aired August 03, 2014 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone, you're in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

HARLOW: We begin with the crisis in the Middle East. The fresh attack near another United Nations school in Gaza is getting very harsh reaction especially from the United States. At least nine Palestinians were killed. The school was being used as a shelter for nearly 3,000 Palestinians in southern Gaza.

Here's part of the reaction just coming out from the state department. Quote, "the United States is appalled by today's disgraceful shelling outside a UNRWA school in Rafah. The coordinates of the school, like all U.N. facilities in Gaza have been repeatedly communicated to the Israeli defense forces." It also said importantly here to point out that Israel must do more to meet its own standards and avoid civilian casualties.

SCIUTTO: Now, the Israeli defense forces say they targeted three Palestinian Islamic Jihad militants riding on a motorcycle in the vicinity of a school. Meanwhile, Hamas keeps firing rockets from Gaza into Israel. The IDF says scores of rockets were launched today at Israeli positions, putting Israeli lives at risk there, as well.

We're joined now by our own Matthew Chance, senior international correspondent in Jerusalem.

So, Matthew, you look at the words today from the U.S., appalling, disgraceful, talking about this strike against the U.N. school from the U.N. They call it a moral outrage and a criminal act. It's a pretty remarkable turn from Friday when those sorts of words were being used to describe the Hamas attack on Israeli soldiers, which at the time, they thought led to a capture actually. That soldier was killed. I wonder how Israel is dealing with this criticism today.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Jim, they have denied that they targeted this U.N. shelter in the southern Gaza Strip saying as you mentioned that they were attacking a number of militants that were driving in the vicinity on a motorcycle. Those, as they say they killed. They're also saying that they launched an investigation into the exact circumstances. But, what Israel is trying to do is shift the blame on to the militants themselves, spokesman saying, that look, if militants are going to use the vicinity of U.N. schools as war zones, then they should be made to take responsibility.

That despite the fact that the U.N. has come out and said, look, we told the Israeli military no less than 33 times that this was a school that was being used to house thousands of displaced people inside the Gaza Strip. It's the third attack on a U.N. shelter just like this in under a week. And so, that's why we're getting such harsh criticism from the U.N. and also the United States, as well.

HARLOW: Poppy Harlow here in New York. We heard a Hamas leader in Qatar, Khaled Meshaal, tell our Nic Robertson repeatedly in his exclusive interview. We, Hamas, are not using Palestinian civilians as human shields repeatedly denying that. When you look at the Israeli strategy on the ground there, especially following the news late yesterday that that Israeli lieutenant Hadar Goldin was, indeed killed in the battle and not captured. Have you seen any change in strategy? Or are you expecting any change in strategy there especially on the ground from IDF?

CHANCE: No. I don't think so. I mean, especially in the light of the information that's come out now that lieutenant Goldin was not captured. That could have been a game changer, but he was killed in the initial attack where the other two soldiers were killed, as well, trying to destroy those tunnels in the southern Gaza Strip.

If it had been captured, if he had been taken alive, that would've led to a strategic change potentially, of course, in the past, Israel's been forced to negotiate very hard, very tough way with captors of Israeli soldiers. I'm thinking (INAUDIBLE) back in 2011 after spent five years in captivity. They exchanged more than 1,000 Palestinian prisoners for him.

But the fact that lieutenant Goldin has been confirmed as dead, I think in some, though those tragic for his family, it's made it much simpler for Israel. It can either continue with the military operation in Gaza or pull out with the knowledge it hasn't left any of its troops, as it were, behind.

HARLOW: Yes, absolutely.

Appreciate the reporting on the ground there for us, Matthew Chance. We'll get back to you later this evening, thanks so much.

All right, now, the Israel's military, rather, is saying today at least 80 rockets flew across their border fired from Gaza. Each time, warning sirens blared to warn people to take cover.

SCIUTTO: It happened when a CNN field team was preparing to go live for report and those warning sirens went off.

SARA SIDNER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Going to have to -- we're going to have to move, guys. We're going to have to move. We'll stay live with the camera rolling, but the sirens are going off. All right. So right now, the siren's going off here and we need to take cover. Going around this way. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Let me be clear, that was not a false alarm. Sara Sidner and her camera crew saw the smoke and damage near to where they were reporting.

Sara's joining us now live from Ashkelon, just across the border from Gaza inside Israel, a little further away from where those alarms went off. Hopefully a safer distance.

Sara, how often are you doing that? Taking cover, you know, we've heard a lot about the missiles going off every day. We know that some of them, you know, go far away from residential areas. But how often have they come close to where you are or where other Israelis will have to flee from them and take cover?

SIDNER: Today's been a little different than some of the other days, you know. These rockets are spread out throughout southern Israel and then the alarms and sirens go off. What you were hearing there, you're not hearing the sound of a screaming siren, you're hearing in Hebrew red alert and depends on where you are.

But we certainly saw the result of where it looked like it may have been a rocket and mortar fall, as well. Looked like it fell somewhere near the beach. And there is a military installation in that area. We saw the installation there with the soldiers standing around. But they become so used to this. To be honest, it is the day were quite calm during the first time that we saw a mortar fall. Nobody running and scrambling. These are soldiers that are really close to the border. About 100 to 200 meters from Gaza. And they have sort of become quite used to this.

On the other hand, the residence where we were, very much closer to Ashkelon, but still there on the border say that, you know, their children are scared. They're scared. They are scared to bring their kids out to play during this four-week period. Very hard on the people here.

But they also recognize how horrible it's been for the Palestinians. This particular mother we spoke to talked a lot about that. How she's a mother and it's also hard for her to see other mothers being killed and their children also being killed on the other side.

HARLOW: And Sara, to you, first from all of us here, fantastic reporting on the ground and just seeing that shows our viewers what you guys are going through just to get the news out.

Question on how the state department is responding to this -- to this strike that has killed at least nine people right near that school in Gaza being used as a U.N. shelter. Part of what the state department said in their statement is, quote, "Israel must do more to meet its own standards and avoid civilian casualties."

You know, we have seen John Kerry, president Obama standing firmly behind Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu in this. And this language is very blunt language coming out from the state department. I'm wondering if you're getting any reaction on the ground there from Israeli to that.

SIDNER: Absolutely. One of the things that you hear the Israeli military saying in this particular case is that there's some firing by militants in Gaza near the school. But also you hear from them they are investigating this particular case. Saying they were actually looking to take out three Islamic Jihad militants who were on a motorcycle in the vicinity. And they are looking into the consequences of that firing. And, of course, we're hearing from the U.N., the U.N. and the U.S. calling it disgraceful because there were 3,000 people inside of that U.N.-run school, which has been turned into a shelter.

Many of these people running for their lives also because their homes have been crushed. And there have been air strikes throughout the day. There were even some this evening we've been hearing about in the 30 minutes or so. A house struck also today. But Israel saying that they are constantly trying to avoid civilians, though there have been several schools in and around the schools have been struck and the schools themselves have been struck. And that has been condemned by the U.N. and U.S. And this time, very, very strongly about ten people killed according to the health ministry around that school vicinity, 30 or so people injured -- Poppy.

HARLOW: Appreciate the live updates from Sara Sidner. Thank you very much, Sara.

SCIUTTO: You know, increasingly like a daily event seeing so many civilians caught up in that conflict in Gaza.

Another story we are covering here, though, at home. It is day-three and roughly half a million people in Ohio and parts of Michigan still can't drink their water even if they boil it because that only makes the water more dangerous. The city gets its water from Lake Erie where a toxin has been found growing in algae. It can cause nausea, vomiting, even acute liver failure.

Ohio's governor has declared a state of emergency and now people are waiting hours in line for clean water as they wait for test results from several different labs to determine when the water crisis will end.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR MICHAEL COLLINS, TOLEDO, OHIO: It is my hope that the governor and his staff, we will sit together and we will work through what needs to be done in terms of bringing this, this horrendous negative experience to a positive end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: So far, there have been no reports of anyone yet getting sick from the affected water.

HARLOW: Yes. And you know, Jim, we are going to have live update on that throughout the evening. Luckily no one has gotten sick. But a pretty unnerving situation, indeed. All right, coming up here in the NEWSROOM, Israel battling Hamas. But

they are far from the only ones invested in the outcome of this fighting.

Countries are picking sides and placing bets by supporting one side or another in the conflict. Are we witnessing an historic shift in allegiances in the Middle East? We'll have that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: After one month of renewed fighting between Israel and the militant group running Gaza, more than 1,800 Palestinians are reported killed. Most of them civilians, many of them children. Israel reports 64 troops and three civilians have died on their side of the border.

The least watchers are quick to point out that this latest conflict is not necessarily a continuation of the long simmering Arab-Israeli conflict. Because this time, it is different. It looks the same, but it is different.

I want to bring in Peter Beinart, he writes for the "Atlantic International Journal," also Steven Cook, he is a senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies on the nonpartisan council on foreign relations.

Thanks Peter, Steven, to both of you for joining us.

Peter, I want to start with you, because one way this is different to some degree is just increasing tensions between the U.S. and Israel over how Israel has carried out their offensive in Gaza. You have an example of that today. I mean, the language from the statement department statement on this strike of this U.N. school. The United States is appalled by today's disgraceful shelling. Those are very strong words in Diplo (ph) speak. And really, just 48 hours that the U.S. was leveling similar words, outrageous, et cetera, against Hamas for an attack against Israeli soldiers. Have you seen the disagreement on this. The U.S. still generally supporting. But, is the space between U.S. and Israel greater than it has been in the past?

PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, I don't think so, actually. You know, if you think about the way Ronald Reagan generally considered a friend of Israel responded during the Lebanon war. In one remarkable exchange with the many -- Israeli prime minister (INAUDIBLE). He actually told (INAUDIBLE) that what Israel was doing in Lebanon was a holocaust, which (INAUDIBLE) was very taken aback by because in fact (INAUDIBLE) family has mostly died in the actual holocaust.

So there is actually a long history of American presidents responding strongly when they feel like Israel is using excessive force that could damage American interest in the region. But I don't think what we're seeing is any fundamental rupture in the U.S./Israel relationship. It's still very strong. It's just that I think that the perception of how far Israel needs to go to fight Hamas is different in the Israeli government than it is in the White House.

SCIUTTO: Interesting. And a great historical perspective going back to Reagan.

Steven, I wonder if I could ask you, because another difference here is how the various regional players take part. One being Israel's neighbor, Egypt, traditionally a great supporter of Hamas. But that's different now that a general in office, who kicked out the Muslim brotherhood, you know, an Islamic group. How much is that a difference here? And how much does it affect Hamas' position?

STEVEN COOK, SENIOR FELLOW, MIDEAST STUDIES, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, just to clarify. Egypt has not been a great supporter of Hamas. It has been a great supporter of the Palestinian cause. Under Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptians sought to keep Hamas in a box.

After Mubarak fell, of course, Mohammed Morsi from the Muslim brotherhood which is connected to Hamas had a different perspective. And seemed to work well with the international community of the United States, Israel in ways to establish a cease-fire in 2012.

Now, with Abdel Fattah el-Sisi who wants to dismantle the Muslim brotherhood and power in Egypt. The Egyptians are more closely aligned to the Israeli government in its incursion into Gaza and its effort to do considerable damage to Hamas' military capabilities.

SCIUTTO: There's been a lot of reporting about how Arab leaders who normally are very loud in their criticism of Israel's tactics have been more quiet here and that's certainly relevant.

I wonder, Peter, if I can ask you, you know, there are a lot of players, and you're seeing more in many of the conflicts that we have been covering the Middle East, the Sunni-Shia split. We're seeing it take part in Syria we are seeing a big part in Iraq, certainly.

How the -- you know, the Palestinian conflict, we used to sort of view as one thing that everybody watched, but was kind of its own little battle going on there, just Israel, just the Palestinians. But how is this broader conflict playing into this particular one?

BEINART: I think the broader Sunni Shia divide has made things harder for the Palestinians and especially harder for Hamas. Remember Hamas is, of course, a Sunni organization. Most Palestinians are Sunni. But one of the big supporters of Hamas was Shia/Iran. And the relationship with Iran, although they haven't been totally severed, have grown weaker because Hamas was not been able to support Iran's position in Syria where the Assad government is killing so many Sunnis.

So I think this has been one of the factors that has weakened Hamas, which Hamas was getting a Sunni organization was getting support from a Shia power Iran. And it's harder to do that now in this increasingly religiously polarized Arab world.

SCIUTTO: Also created complicated alliances, too. Because for instance, you have ISIS, a group that is against Assad, you know, effectively, where the U.S. position is right there against Assad. But, of course, the U.S. against ISIS in Iraq.

Steven, I wonder if we can ask you before we let you both go. You know, this conflict -- the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has been difficult enough to solve in simpler times, right? You know, many presidents have tried it through the years, through the decades. In this very complicated time with so many competing alliances, proxy wars, et cetera, in the region, does that make this conflict just -- does it make a solution to the conflict today does seem too distant to be believable?

COOK: Let me add a further complication here. Rather than it being a reflection of the Sunni/Shia divide in the region, it really is a reflection of the Sunni/Sunni divide. You have Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Kuwait, lining up essentially with the Israelis and Qatar and Turkey lining up essentially with Hamas. This creates more and more difficulties within the region. And it's hard to bring all the parties together to put leverage on the two main parties, Israel and Hamas to get to a cease-fire, no less a peace agreement between the Palestinians and the Israelis broadly speaking.

SCIUTTO: I think for viewers at home, it sounds so complicated. But -- and it sounds a million miles away. It certainly is complicated. But at a sounds a million miles away, certainly is complicated but the U.S., they're very close allies involved in all of these conflicts. And that, you know, as much as we'd like to keep it at arm's length, that by its nature keeps the U.S. involved.

Peter Beinart, Steven Cook, two of the best voices on this topic. Thanks very much for joining us.

COOK: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: There is another war Hamas and Israel will are waging against each other. It is a fight in the media. Images like this are appalling to all of us. But critics say the suffering is sometimes exploited in a campaign to win sympathy. We are going to explore that topic just after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Welcome back, I'm Poppy Harlow in New York.

As we watch the war in the Middle East intensify and the casualty numbers climb, we are seeing horrific images including civilians caught in the line of fire. We're also seeing and witnessing a battle to shape public perception. Hamas and Israel both fighting to gain an edge in the court of public opinion.

Our Brian Stelter, host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" is here with us.

I'm so glad you could come in. I can't think of a better voice on this. You focused in a lot on it on your show earlier today.

Let's begin with this simple, but very important question in any war. Who is winning the battle of perception?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: It feels like there are two different wars. There's a war of weapons, of course, but there is also this war of words going on. And if you look at polls in the United States, you'll see strong support for Israel as there's historically been. If you look at polls in other countries, you'll see much less support. And so in some cases, it depends on where you're watching or where you are reading.

On "RELIABLE SOURCES" this morning, I talked Ben Wallace Wells. He is a staff writer of New York magazine. He said something to me that kind of stop me in my tracks about the difference between what Israel might want out of this and what Hamas wants. So let's play that clip again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN WALLACE WELLS, STAFF WRITER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: I would say that I think Israel is perfectly happy to lose the media argument as long as they win the military fight. And I think the imbalance in this whole conflict is that Hamas sees it exactly the other way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STELTER: I thought that was so striking that he talks about Israel -- focused on the media view as Hamas would be. And it jives with what we've heard some conservative commentators say which is that there is an element to this of Hamas wanting to show off these dead civilians. Wanting this images to be broadcast on television.

HARLOW: And there have been critics, all of us in this, journalists, face criticism from both sides, frankly. And then frankly, you know, you're doing your job right if both sides are criticizing you, right, I mean. But when you look at some of the criticism, it is saying, look, you are playing into what Hamas wants because you're showing the images. What about the images of the Hamas fighters firing those rockets. This is something you asked the higher ops about.

STELTER: Well, because we have been seeing this for weeks now in twitter and facebook. A lot of people out there wondering, why don't we see these Hamas militants who we all hear about who are clearly firing these rockets from somewhere. Is it because reporters on the ground face threats? Is it because they feel intimidated? And the answer from that we as CNN international coverage hear was no. We, as CNN reporters have not felt intimidated while reporting from Gaza. That's not to say others maybe have.

HARLOW: And numerous requests with Hamas on the ground.

STELTER: That's one thing we've got to keep in mind. There's been complaints from people who think the coverage slanted against Israel who say you're not interviewing these Hamas representatives, you know. You are asking the tough questions you need to be asking. Well, journalists in Gaza would love to be interviewing these men if they could.

HARLOW: Right.

STELTER: They tend not to be available. They tend to be in hiding.

But your point about both sides is very important, I think. Journalists have to know the complaints that they're getting from their audience. But we can't be crippled by those complaints, either. We have to be able to state uncomfortable truths even though we know parts of the audience are going to be bothered by that.

HARLOW: Absolutely. We have to go. Quickly here, though, social media is changing the game. We are seeing things on social media that we are not showing our viewers on television. How much does that change this time around in terms of the perception wars?

STELTER: I don't think it's a sea change, but I do think it's an important slight change. And over time, we'll see more and more of this, there's an alternate way to get information and images, you know. In many cases, it's the images that get people's attention the most. And of course, that's why we hear complaints about the images that are broadcast.

HARLOW: Brian Stelter, we appreciate that you'll stay on this.

Of course, go to CNN.com finish Brian's articles on this. And of course, "RELIABLE SOURCES" every Sunday morning.

Brian, thanks you very much. Appreciate it.

STELTER: Thank you.

Well, it is really inevitable that Qatar would play a role, some sort of role in this conflict. The country is also, though, home to a very big U.S. military presence. It also has ties to Hamas, it is tied to the political leader of Hamas. So where is the balance? How is this all possible? We are going to delve into that straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back, I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.

One country is at the center of the talks aimed at stopping the fighting, and that is Qatar. The leader of Hamas is based there, Khaled Meshaal. And yesterday, Meshaal spoke to CNN's Nic Robertson about the support Hamas is getting from Qatar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: How much support do you get from Qatar to your weapon systems?

KHALED MESHAAL, HAMAS POLITICAL LEADER (through translator): No one has given us weapons. We are building our own weapons inside of Gaza. We smuggle some weapons in from abroad. We got some on the open market. But we have not received weapons from a specific countries. In the past, Iran had supplied us with some weapons. But today, we build our own weapons in Gaza. ROBERTSON: And financial support from Qatar?

MESHAAL (through translator): We get financial support from Arab and Muslim peoples, not from individual states.

ROBERTSON: And does that go into making weapons?

MESHAAL (through translator): All the money we receive is directed toward the humanitarian needs of our people, to hospitals, education, the families of those killed and those in prison. And with our money, we rebuild what the Israelis have destroyed. And if (INAUDIBLE) aggression against asking Gaza. But, of course, yes, some of that money goes toward our ability to defend ourselves, which is our right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Qatar is a key ally for the U.S. hosting a crucial U.S. military base there also gearing up to host soccer's world cup inviting the entire world to visit. But at the same time, it hosts Hamas and an office, if you can believe it, for the Taliban, as well. So, is Qatar an ally or an enemy?

I'm joined again by Steven Cook of the council on Foreign relations, as well as Bob Baer, he is CNN national security analyst, also a former CIA operative.

Steven, you know, you talk about complicated relationships, this is one of them. We got a base there, but they have an office for the Taliban. The U.S. sworn enemy in Afghanistan. They are supporting, rebels, for instance, in Syria that we consider to be Jihadis tied to Al Qaeda. At the same time, there are reports that the U.S., along with Qatar, training some Syrian rebels at a base in Qatar. Where do you put this on the scale of friend and enemy or adversary, I should say, for the U.S.?

COOK: Well, I wouldn't put it in the category of adversary. I would certainly continue to consider Qatar as friend to the United States. Although it might seem strange they host a Hamas leader and have an office for the Taliban.

This can be useful for the United States. This is the way in which the United States can communicate with either the Taliban or the Qataris. But remember, the Qataris main goal in conducting their foreign policy is to make sure that they're not dominated by their neighbors, especially Saudi Arabia. They want to have an independent foreign policy, and they've used their vast wealth in natural resources in order to establish an influential role in the region. And these, what you describe is clearly their success in carving out despite the small population a rather influential role despite themselves.

SCIUTTO: No permanent friends, just permanent interests.

Bob, I wonder, what's in this for Qatar in hosting Hamas. Not just Hamas, there's a Taliban office. Even the network in Arabic that gets some criticism of the region sometimes for it's perceived having sympathy for some of these causes. What does Qatar get beyond what Steven is talking about, which is influence. It does not want to be dominated by its neighbors and its own adversaries in the region.

ROBERT BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Steven hit the nail on the head, it's Saudi Arabia. And that is a country of 250,000 people. They don't have an army to speak of, they don't have an intelligence service to speak of. But they've got an enormous amount of money from gas from the north field. And so, they're doing is fending off Saudi Arabia by supporting Saudi Arabia's enemies, among them the Muslim brotherhood which is essentially Hamas.

They support the Chechens, as well. they supported on Keyed (ph) in the 1990s. Don't forget that (INAUDIBLE) Mohammad took refuge there in the mid-90s. When the FBI sent a team to arrest him, the Qatari speared him out of the country. And he went, of course, to conduct 9/11. So, they are walking at Cairo. And they don't themselves train, but they write checks. They have written checks to the Libyan Muslim brotherhood. They're paying for much of the fighting going on Libya. They pay for ISIS. They pay for all sorts of radical Sunni/Islamic groups all across the Middle East. And they think they're immune from this. So far, they have been. And the United States is certainly not held them accountable.

SCIUTTO: Steven, I wonder before we let -- before we let you both go, you know, we've talked a bit in this segment and the previous segment about how Hamas has lost some allies, even in the Arab world. Some leaders, Egypt not speaking out for them even speaking against them.

How does this affect this current conflict between Israel and Gaza. Our viewers have been seeing on the air for the last two, three weeks. If it undermines Hamas' power, does that mean bringing a quicker end to this current conflict because they're in a weaker bargaining position. Or do they stick with it and the killing goes on?

COOK: No, I think that Hamas feels comfortable with the support it's getting from Qataris and less so from the Turks. And I think that it has proven that they have significant amount of staying power against Israeli fire power.

So I think this is going to continue for quite some time. We won't get an end to this fighting until either the Israelis or Hamas believes that their military and political objectives have been achieved. And you talk about outside powers, whether it's the Egyptians or the Qataris or the Saudis, or the Emiratis. They also have political objectives and they're all working in ways that essentially prolong the conflict.

SCIUTTO: You just have to shake your head because even if a cease- fire happens in Gaza, you have the fighting in Syria, you have the war going on in Iraq. There was some blowing up of the -- at the border between Lebanon and Syria today. It's really a messy situation.

Thank you, Steven and Bob Baer for helping us try to make some sense of it.

At its heart, the fight between Israel and Hamas is a religious war. One that has forced believers in many nations to pick sides. Ahead, we're going to ask three religious leaders for their thoughts on this conflict and religion's role in the war.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Rockets and bombs are not the only factors fueling the escalating crisis between Israel and Gaza. There is religion and that is key. Vastly different beliefs between Jews and Muslims pose a unique challenge in this region and it has for decades.

Our guests hope that religion will ultimately in some way lead to -- they have been working to improve relations between Jews and Muslims in communities frankly here at home.

Here with me are Imam Deen Shareef also rabbi Matthew Gewirtz, and also father Edward Beck.

Let me start with you, Father Beck, we were just speaking in the commercial break. And you said one of the questions that your congregants have come to you with over the last four weeks of this fighting is where are the Christians in all of this because your Palestinian? You have Christians in Jerusalem.

FATHER EDWARD BECK, CNN RELIGION COMMENTATOR: You know, Poppy, it's interesting. If you visit the region, as I have, Bethlehem, that whole area in the West Bank used to be 70 percent Christian. It is now three percent Christian. So you see, the Palestinian-Christians have been pushed out of that area, as well. So this fighting isn't just -- unfortunately, it's three religions that wind up fighting. And they have different concerns. But I think they can't get lost in it.

When you have a people that is oppressed in any way or if they are fearful in any way, often they are going to respond violently. So if you take away the oppression and you take away the fear, then, perhaps, you take away the violence. And I think that's what we're missing in this. How do we do that as a community of faith?

HARLOW: And to you, Rabbi, we were speaking at length earlier today. And you were telling me about feeling a bit torn. The fact that you support Israel, you support defending itself. But at the same time, you have seen over history that violence does not accomplish the ends that are necessary.

MATTHEW GEWIRTZ, SENIOR RABBI, CONGREGATION B'NAI JESHURUN: Yes, 100 percent. I have four-square for my homeland. I feel a great sense of fear for what it is that is happening there. And on the other hand, I also know that violence does no result in any kind of everlasting reconciliation and peace. So somehow I'm hoping that we can get past this military part that we're going to be able to hold each other's fears both for ourselves and for others and to be able to find a way to find those who actually want to talk about peace to sit down.

HARLOW: Yes. Let's hope there is a diplomatic solution. You were saying earlier that there's an ethical issue. But you are sure if there is a choice. And we will talk about that more in a moment. BACK to you, Jim, in D.C.

SCIUTTO: Yes, Poppy, I'm sure you wish we could have voices like this just standing in between the two warring parties right now just to bring some peace to the conflict.

I'd address this question to both Imam Shareef, but also to rabbi Gewirtz. You know, both the Islamic faith and the Jewish faith preach compassion for the people in the faith but also people from outside the faith. And I bet Jews and Muslims across the region many times and I sense that compassion.

This conflict strains that compassion. And I wonder when you're speaking to your congregants and try to get them to separate from the strong and sometimes angry emotions connected to this battle there, how do you bring them back to the compassion at the core to see the other side? And you know, dump some of the anger for some understanding?

W. DEEN SHAREEF, IMAM, MASJID WAARITH UD DEEN: I think it's important to understand that mercy is one of the principal attributes of almighty God. And that is the principal attribute that is to be demonstrated in the human being's life, as well. However, it's important to realize that justice is also a very important concept in Islam that justice must be rendered to all people equally. So therefore, in Islam, it is acceptable for people to defend themselves when an injustice is actually being administered to them.

However, justice must be administered with mercy. Justice must be administered with compassion, and justice must be administered with a certain degree of equity. What we find existing in the situation in Palestine and in Israel is that there is an injustice that is being administered. And I think it's important for all the religions that are affected by this conflict to bring themselves back to the scriptural understanding of how conflict is to be resolved within each one of these scriptures. What is missing in the narrative is the sincere scriptural understanding of how people resolve differences. Too much of what was being discussed is political in nature and not necessarily scriptural in nature.

HARLOW: That's an interesting point.

To you, before we get to a break, and by the way, for our viewers, we'll have our panel stick around, a lot more to talk about on this.

But to you, Father Beck, one of the principal pillars of Christianity is turn the other cheek or love your enemy. At the same time, we are seeing what is playing out there and you can't be (INAUDIBLE) about that, right? Israel is saying, you know, we will defend ourselves. Where do you fall in that? You know, how do you do that in a realistic way?

BECK: You know, Christianity is unique in that perspective thought. We come from the three-man of district tradition. Love of God and love of neighbor is common to all of us. But in the new testament, Jesus says love your enemies. He takes it further, which I don't think is found in the Koran or Hebrew scriptures.

Now, what does that means? It means that in some way you have to believe that a nonviolent resistance, which is a loving respond, think of Dr. King, think of Gandhi who is not Christian but used it anyway that it actually can transform hearts. That it can actually work. That violence only begets violence. So that if you love your enemies, if you believe that there's something good in them that that perspective can actually transform their hearts and their actions. And Christianity really holds that to be a tenant that is important to be played out.

HARLOW: All right. We appreciate the insight. Don't go anywhere. You're going to stick with us for the next block. Let's get a quick commercial break in here. We're going to be back with much more straight ahead after this.

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HARLOW: Welcome back. Well, deep religious divisions are fueling a lot of the violence between Israel and Gaza. Today, an attack on U.N. school that was sheltering 3,000 people in southern Gaza. It happened right next to the school. It killed at least nine people, that is according to the Palestinian health ministry.

Joining me to continue our discussion on religions rolling in all of this, Imam Deen Shareef, also rabbi Mathew Gewirtz and Father Edward Beck.

I want to go to Jim, because Jim, I know you had a question for the Imam.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Thank you, Poppy. We were speaking in the beak just about what a fascinating discussion this is.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Because at the root of this conflict, you know, religion is, you know, throughout it all, throughout at all.

But Imam, you had an interesting comment just before saying how Islam, it's a peaceful religion, but it is also a religion about justice and that call for justice is often used as a justification for resistance.

Now, both sides of this conflict, you know, cite religion as justifying their cause to some degree. I just wonder from your perspective, and I might also direct this question to the rabbi afterwards. Do you believe that that religious call for justice in Islam is taking advantage of, twisted perhaps, by some on the side to use its a justification for violence that is not justified, if you know what I mean? And I might that, Poppy, if you are agreeing think that's a relevant question for the rabbi as well.

HARLOW: I do. Imam.

SHAREEF: I'm not sure whether it's actually put to the side and maybe misinterpreted. It may be misapplied. I think that is important to realized, thought, that the Koran, which is the basis for defining not only how peace is established but how also conflict is to be dealt with. The Koran lays a criteria for engagement with respect to how one defends their right to exist and to defend their lives and the lines in the property in which, you know, their families and community exists.

There is a rule of engagement that the Koran as well as the tradition of Mohammed the prophet said there is no such thing as an indiscriminate use of weaponry. That the lives of the innocent people should not be threatened and should not be taken. That there should be a direct result that is targeted towards the aggression that is being made.

So what I see as happening is the indiscriminate use of weaponry is actually is opposed to the scriptures as defined by the Torah and by the Koran. And I think it is important to also note that the atrocities that are being perpetuated by, you know, the Israeli army is not just to attack Hamas. I believe that there is also an intent to break the will of the people. It's not just to attack Hamas. It is to break the will of the people to resist the oppression that has taken place within Palestine.

HARLOW: And interestingly as we get to you, rabbi, in your reaction to that interestingly on both sides, we have seen the civilians gaining in their support of the cause both on the Israeli side and their support of Hamas and Gaza despite the increasing death toll. What is the reaction to what the Imam said?

GEWIRTZ: I mean, I should pressed that the Imam and I have been very dear friends for six years and helped to officiate my youngest daughter's baby naming. So real-authentic relationship as part of our discussions. In this place, we diverge for sure which is to say that Torah, for sure, is a torah of peace. Our old testament is one of peace. But also one of defending ourselves, taking care of ourselves. And I don't believe for a moment from my point of view that Israelis are going in to break the will of the people. They're going in because rockets are coming from in defensible place like schools, like hospitals. It's a shame and it breaks every religious bone in my body.

HARLOW: I want to bring Jim back in for this last question and read a tweet that both Jim and I just got in the last segment. It came and said it is all about religion, fighting over myths and legends. Stop the hate.

To you, Father Beck, I hear often from people often, and we only have a minute here, that religion is causing all of this. And then they turn away from religion. Do you fear that that increasingly happens at times like this?

BECK: It can happen because religion has perpetrated bad things. But it has perpetrated much better things, I think. You know, we have all been in Israel. One day I was in a Palestinian refugee camp. And I thought, look what's happening to these people. I was definitely on that side. Then I came from the Palestinian refugee camp and I was waiting for a bus to go home. And the bus in front of me was blown up by a suicide bomber.

And so, I was there with the Israeli people saying this is what they daily with every day. And so, unless you're in the mix and know what it's like, it's easy to sit on a panel and talk about it. But when you're there in the midst of that conflict, it looks very different.

HARLOW: We do appreciate all of your expertise. I know Jim and I both really appreciate that discussion. Thank you for coming in on this Sunday evening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for having us.

HARLOW: We will be right back after a quick break.

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