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Tens Of Thousands Of Christians Fleeing ISIS; Official: U.S. Considering Air Strikes In Iraq; Cease-Fire Ends In Hours, Talks Under Way

Aired August 07, 2014 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: When we talk about potential airstrikes or some sort of military option in Iraq, talking to Bob Baer, former CIA operative, he said to me, listen, Brooke, when and if the U.S. strikes -- and it's debatable whether or not ISIS currently has control of that massive hydroelectric dam near Mosul, but if they do, you know, they could pull the plug on that and use that to retaliate.

COLONEL PETER MANSOOR (RETIRED), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, that certainly is a possibility although I think the latest information is that the Peshmerga still controls the Mosul dam. Hopefully that's the case.

BALDWIN: Good.

MANSOOR: Once we launch air strikes, we're only going to get one shot at the first strike so it's got to be effective. We have more than 50 ISR intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance flying over the region now and so we are gathering the targeting information.

And I'm sure that when the -- if a strike comes, it's going to be a powerful one in order to take advantage of the element of surprise.

BALDWIN: How is that? How do you mean? Why would the U.S. only get one shot?

MANSOOR: Well, one shot at the element of surprise. Once you start launching air strikes, of course, the enemy knows you're going to come at them, and they can disburse their forces. But the initial strike is an important one because that's where you're going to be able to inflict the maximum amount of damage.

BALDWIN: Let me ask you about this Sinjar Mountain, where tens of thousands of these Yezidis are held. At the top of this hill, they have fled their villages and homes because of ISIS. We know that the U.S. will drop that humanitarian aid. They have very little food, very little water. How does the U.S. even go about doing that?

MANSOOR: Well, it's a very remote place. There is no ground line of communication to it. So you're going to have to drop supplies in via parachute. If you just drop them without any kind of breaking device, of course, it will just explode on the ground.

There was reports that we tried to drop water, and the water just all broke apart when it hit the ground. So it's going to be something that's pretty tricky, but, you know, our air mobility command has the resources and the expertise to drop things in by parachute.

But that's a very short-term endeavor. We're going to have to figure out a longer-term way to either get these refugees out of there or have some sort of deal to allow ground line and supply to them.

BALDWIN: Colonel Peter Mansoor, I appreciate you coming on and your expertise was we're watching to see what the U.S. does. Thank you.

MANSOOR: Thanks, Brooke.

BALDWIN: As the U.S. considers options to help this -- the Yezidis, at least one Christian can understand their situation. He has been there. He has seen firsthand how some religious minorities -- minority religions in Iraq are persecuted.

But while he was there, he also saw another side and he penned this opinion piece entitled "Learning to love the enemy in Iraq." We'll talk to him, live, next.

BALDWIN: Let's get right to it. Let me bring in my next guest, Jeremy Courtney. He is an executive director of an international development organization in Iraq. He moved to Iraq with his young family in 2007 to assist with relief efforts and still lives there today.

He is author of "Pre-emptive Love: Pursuing Peace One Heart At A Time." And just wanted his insights as far as what's going on in Iraq right now. Jeremy, first, just welcome to you.

JEREMY COURTNEY, U.S. CHRISTIAN WHO PROVIDED AID IN IRAQ: Thank you.

BALDWIN: You are a Christian and you wrote this in your opinion piece. Let me just quote you. You said, "The world may watch from afar and denounce all Iraqi-Muslims as militants bent on conquest. But up close, the reality is very different." But just -- given the murderous rampage of these ISIS militants, you have to understand where the world is coming from.

COURTNEY: Yes. I understand it. But it's also important for someone on the ground and particularly someone as a Christian speaking back mostly to a Christian population, the challenge that in trying to provide some nuance to it.

BALDWIN: That said, tell me about Sheikh Ali.

COURTNEY: The sheikh is a friend of mine that I met in a hotel lobby one day, about seven years ago. And I was sitting, minding my business, trying to work on some things, and when he and a group of robed clerics all decked out approached me, I kind of freaked out. I saw these guys as the enemy.

I saw them as the scary face of Islam that I had been trained to see them as and I began packing my things. And this guy saw my fear, I think and tried to calm me down and said no, no, no, friend, my beloved. Sit down. Let me get to know you. Let me talk to you.

And this guy just really won me over with his smile and from there brought me into a community of Muslim leaders and a community of Muslim people from across Iraq that have really changed my perspective on the ground there.

BALDWIN: With your perspective, you wrote at the end of your piece, that terrorists, they actually need the violence committed against them to justify their own violence, their own cause. You know, you wrote, as is the title of this book, they need pre-emptive love.

But just to push -- tell me how one could, should, love someone who abducts little girls, forces families out of villages, or be beheaded. How do you show pre-emptive love?

COURTNEY: From a Christian theological perspective, for one, you can start with this base level notion that everyone is made in the image of God. And so we spend a lot of time talking about how evil these people are. And that's absolutely true.

But one of the things that we're not discussing is how we actually have some of that stuff in ourselves, as well. And how the good stuff that we have in ourselves, they have in them somewhere, as well. And so when we talk about acute issues like are happening today, it can seem completely intractable and ridiculous.

But when you back up a little bit and you have a larger conversation about our relationship with violence in general, our violent responses to things. When you look at a group of people that could choose to go in and love their enemies through the provision of services and care and working through our fears.

Then we start to see options that emerge that don't seem present to us today when we're talking about Yezidis fleeing from ISIS. But in a larger conversation, there are options.

BALDWIN: How do you mean?

COURTNEY: Well, so today all we're discussing is air strikes against Iraq and that's germane and true and needs to be discussed. But in the context of a breaking news headline discussion, that's all that we're getting to discuss right now.

And we're not -- so two weeks ago, when everyone was up in arms about Christians being persecuted and homes being marked and driven out, that was an important thing. But the only thing we were discussing right then seemed to be the Christians. They were our people.

And we weren't discussing the Yezidis at that moment even though they had been persecuted. We weren't discussing Shabat. We weren't discussing Shia and most importantly, the Christians up in arms here.

Let's say in America and around the world, were not discussing our complicit role in placing those Christians in Iraq in harm's way. We voted for some of this stuff. This stuff is not unpredictable. This was absolutely predicted.

And here we are, and we're decrying the persecution of Christians in Iraq, when -- actually, we had something to do with it ourselves.

BALDWIN: We have been covering what ISIS has been doing for months and months. To your point about the Yezidis, we are talking in depth about that today and we will continue to do so. Because it is absolutely horrendous what is happening to tens of thousands of people in Iraq.

And I hear your point loud and clear, Jeremy. I just want to push everyone to read your opinion piece, just go to cnn.com/religion. I truly appreciate you spending a couple minutes to come and talk to me today.

We are also moving along following developments out of the Middle East. We are hours away now from the end of that 72-hour cease-fire between Hamas and Israel. And as these peace talks are under way in Egypt, we are now getting word that the military wing of Hamas has urged the Palestinian negotiation team to not extend the cease-fire unless one very specific demand is met. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We are now, just watching the clock, a little more than nine hours until that scheduled end of the cease-fire that has halted the bloodshed in the Middle East. Talks over extending it and searching for longer-term solution are under way in Cairo. Israeli and Palestinian delegations are communicating via Egyptian mediators. Time running short. Now it appears the military wing of Hamas is piling on additional pressure.

CNN's Reza Sayah is live for us in Cairo with specific on this demand from the military wing of Hamas. What do you know, Reza?

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Brooke, these were already anxious hours here in Cairo, but these statements certainly add to the tension. I think some people are going to look at these statements and they're going to say that this is Hamas simply posturing and piling on the pressure in order to get what they want.

But others are going to say these are threats and Hamas is prepared to fight again tomorrow once this cease-fire is over. Briefly, let's tell you what the Cassam Brigade said, Hamas' military wing on TV. This is a television station run by Hamas.

They essentially called on the negotiating team here not to extend the cease-fire until the Palestinian's people initial demands are met. They say if there is agreement then the cease-fire can be extended. If there is no agreement, they're calling on this negotiating team to pull out of the talks and go back to Gaza from Cairo.

Earlier in the day, we spoke to another Palestinian delegate. He made a similar statement saying, if Israel doesn't respond to the demands of the Palestinian people, the resistance can resume activity. They didn't say they're going to start firing rockets again tomorrow morning. They didn't say they are going to start fighting.

But Brooke, when you hear these statements, you have to start wondering. What's going to happen if 8:00 a.m. local time Friday comes, and there is no agreement, is the bloodshed? Is the fighting going to start again? I think a lot of people are hoping that's not the case. A lot of people hoping these two sides come to an agreement by 8:00 a.m. local time tomorrow.

BALDWIN: To end the bloodshed, final hours of negotiating. Reza Sayah, thank you so much in Cairo, the site of the peace talks under way.

Next, how is the media covering this conflict between Israel and Hamas? S.E. Cupp, host of CNN's "CROSSFIRE" is here. Good to see you. She says that journalists are leaving out one very important part of the story. She will explain what she means next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, what will it take to reach a longer term agreement over Gaza beyond the cease-fire? Nine hours until it expires. Israel wants Hamas to give up its weapons, in particular rockets. Hamas says it wants to end the blockade of Gaza. There's so much more here.

What we don't often according to my next guest and colleague is the Hamas' long-standing goal outlined in its charter, it's covenant, the destruction of Israel. "CROSSFIRE" host, S.E. Cupp says that is the media's fault and it needs to change. Good to see you.

S.E. CUPP, CNN ANCHOR, "CROSSFIRE": Good to see you.

BALDWIN: You made the point and I think others have as well, listen, if you're on the ground in this part of the world, you get it and know where this conflict began, but if you are just an American watching the news coverage, you don't understand what's really at stake and what really either side wants.

CUPP: Right. The media treats Hamas and in particularly within the confines of this conflict as sort of a political figure. So when they talk about Hamas' demands, as the cease-fire, it's an end the blockade in Gaza. It's to maintain their tunnels.

What they don't talk about Hamas's stated goals, its true objectives, which are the total destruction of Israel and annihilation of the Jews. That's not subjective. That's not something I'm adding into the story.

BALDWIN: It's in the charter.

CUPP: It's stated in their charter and as recently as this year, last year, political figures from Hamas have said as up. They've not been coy about this being part of their overarching goal. For media reports tore omit that and just talk about the political demands seems like a real glaring example of either bias or a Hamas victory on the PR front.

BALDWIN: Media malfeasance was I think how you put it in the daily news. So you said Israel wants peace, Hamas wants genocide. We know Hamas has used civilians as human shields, they've been storing their weaponry near mosques and schools. On the flipside is, Israel has been shooting rockets. There have been deaths caused by Israel. It's not just Hamas.

CUPP: Yes. No, it's not -- there's a lot of hand wringing over the bias in the media. It's not bias to reflect sympathetically on deaths of innocent Palestinians. Palestinians are people. It's not even biased I think to question or challenge Israel's strategy on this.

The bias comes in that omission. I mean, imagine if we were doing a news report, you and I on what Hitler wanted. And we said, well, he very much wanted to annex Poland and parts of Russia. You might say --

BALDWIN: You would be factually correct but more than that.

CUPP: He also wanted to kill a lot of Jews. So to omit that in a report and it should be stated every time you're talking about Hamas' demands and wants if we're going to be honest it, creates this moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas that doesn't exist. The demands are not morally equal here.

BALDWIN: So what about President Obama? Because we heard from him last night and he says he has no sympathy. He said it twice last night. He has no sympathy for Hamas. Is that strong enough language, S.E. Cupp?

CUPP: Who would have sympathy for Hamas? Hamas is a terrorist organization. The fact that that needs stating is problematic. This problem in the media has seeped over into the administration. To lament the situation for Hamas at all I think is to not be strong enough in a stand for Israel and is not acknowledging that the demands on either side are not equivalent.

This is not a compromise that needs to be reached between two equivalent political actors. As you said, as I said, Israel wants peace, Hamas wants genocide. That's a fact. If we're going to have an honest conversation about it in the media, be that needs to be the foundation.

BALDWIN: Included. S.E. Cupp, thank you very much. "CROSSFIRE," really appreciate you being here in person. Quick break. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As we have been talking, discussing at great lengths the last two hours about the current situation on the ground in Iraq, I can tell you that the U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry arrived today in Afghanistan. This is his second trip there in less than a month. He is trying to end an election dispute. The country's two presidential candidates have been fighting

over results since a runoff back in June. Secretary Kerry has already negotiated an agreement to recount all 8 million ballots and create this unity government. But now he's pushing both of the candidates to hash out the details.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thank you so much for being with me. Let's take you live to Jerusalem. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.