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Massive Manhunt Underway in Paris; Too Early to Attribute Paris Attack to Specific Group; No Plans to Close U.S. Embassy in Paris
Aired January 07, 2015 - 09:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: They pretty calmly go on. And if you're potentially calmly proceeding away from a terrible crime scene, you might get pretty far, I would suppose, without authorities terribly noticing you. So, again, perhaps the - you know, and it is speculation, perhaps these are people who have the training and expertise to present a public profile in the moments after the attack, not to draw immediate attention to themselves, to get away from the area, as far as possible, as fast as possible. That manhunt now very urgent to say the least. And U.S. officials say they consider it the top priority in this right now to find these people. They don't want them crossing borders.
You'll recall a few months ago in an attack on a Jewish center in Brussels where the gunman had a flag - a gun wrapped in the ISIS flag. He was able to cross multiple European borders before he was tracked down. So this notion that attackers can get across borders in Europe is something of urgent concern.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Right, the gunman in that attack in Belgium had experience fighting in Syria, had recently returned from combat in Syria. Again, we don't know the identity of these gunmen. We know they yelled out "al Akbar." Another eyewitness said that they yelled out that, "we've avenged the Prophet Mohammad." That, obviously, a reference to some of the cartoons that "Charlie Hebdo," the magazine, has published.
We're going to talk to Bobby Ghosh, managing editor of "Quartz," also global affairs analyst for CNN, when we come back about other groups that also could have been involved in this and what we can tell from that video as we look very closely, what we know, with the latest details on the attack. We'll be right back.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
COOPER: Welcome back.
A massive manhunt now underway in Paris for what French authorities are saying are at least three possible gunmen, three gunmen involved in an attack on the satirical French magazine "Charlie Hebdo" earlier today. The last reports were at least 12 were killed. It's believed two of them police officers. The rest, members of the staff of the newspaper, cartoonists as well. Clearly an attack on freedom of expression, freedom of the press, for a magazine that has been under attack before. Their offices were fire bombed in 2011. They've been under police protection for a long time. That's most likely why the police officers who were killed in this attack, it's believed they were the ones who were on the scene already giving protection to this magazine.
This magazine was hit at a time when it was a weekly staff meeting where they were planning the next publication, on the same day that a new publication had just come out. Whether or not the gunmen knew that or not, but it was certainly, for the timing of the attack, it could not have been worse. Many of the members of the staff, some of whom work from home, don't normally even come into the offices, but it was - it was -- the offices were full of the staff members. It's believed right now at least 10 have died and, as I said, it's believed two police officers have died as well.
I want to show you just in full the two videos that we have. They're from two different vantage points. It's a little bit confusing. I want to show you, first of all, the video that was taken from - basically it looks like a block or so away from the top of a rooftop. And, again, it's not a complete picture of the attack, but it does show you the gunman. You can hear gunmen - at least one gunmen yelling out "Allah Akbar." Let's show that video and then I'll show you the closer version.
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COOPER: So in this -- you don't actually see gunmen, you hear people who are on the rooftops recording and you see somebody there running and then hiding in between two vehicles. So here the attack is already underway.
Now let's take a closer look from another vantage point in which you actually see the gunmen and particularly trying to ascertain exactly how many gunmen there were on the scene and if there was more than one getaway car. Let's talk a look.
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COOPER: There you hear one of the gunmen saying "Allah Akbar." There is a third video we have which is a closer up view in which you actually see the gunmen trying to make their getaway. If we have that queued up, let's try to show that as well.
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COOPER: Now, part of that video we've edited because essentially one gunman assassinates a police officer who is laying wounded on the street or who's laying on the street. That's the still image. We don't want to show the actual killing. It appears that the police officer has his hands up. Whether he's aware that the gunman is right about to kill him, we do not know. But it looks like his hands seem to be moving upwards.
The gunman shoots him. We've taken a freeze of the image before the shot is actually fired. And then you see the gunman moving off. Again, now French authorities say at least three gunmen involved in this. They said that they are looking for three gunmen. That search is still going on.
I'm joined by Bobby Ghosh, managing editor of "Quartz," also global affairs analyst here for CNN.
And, Bobby, as we continue to look at those videos, what is it that you see in that?
BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, at this early stage, Anderson, and sooner or later some group will take credit and explain - try to explain why they did this. But at this early stage, some interesting things stand out. One, they didn't pick a military target, which suggests this is not a statement about France's role in military operations against al Qaeda or ISIS. Two, they didn't pick a random civilian target. This was not - you know, France has many tourist destinations. If you wanted simply to create mayhem, you could attack in one of those. So this was not for mayhem. They specifically chose this organization. They chose to attack it after much of the police protection had been removed.
COOPER: Right.
GHOSH: Yes.
COOPER: And that's a question, did they -- did they choose this target? I mean they said also we've avenged the Prophet Mohammad. Did they choose this target because they knew, though it was under police protection, it was pretty light police protection. It wasn't a hard target like a military base.
GHOSH: A year ago, two years ago, where there were much more police protection, they would have come under much greater counter fire I assume. So it suggests that they were staking this place out. They knew what to expect. They came to kill, not to die. This is very significant.
COOPER: That's an important point.
GHOSH: It's quite different from what we've seen elsewhere. They had a getaway vehicle. These are not suicide bombers. They expected to be able to get away, which also suggests a degree of planning and scoping out the building.
COOPER: Which may also relate to -- you know, Barbara Starr was reporting that some intelligence sources she has talked to were interested in the fact that they seem to have worn masks. There had been a call by some groups, by ISIS, not for people who are attacking not to wear masks, to kind of show their faces -
GHOSH: Yes.
COOPER: In defiance and to show their faces proudly. Perhaps wearing masks because, to your point, these guys didn't come to die, they came to get away.
GHOSH: That's right. And also, we see people acting with military precision and these days we automatically assume ISIS. But an important point is that Stephanne Charbonnier, who is the editor-in- chief of "Charlie Hebdo," was specifically on al Qaeda's most wanted list in 2013. So we'll find out who do this. But we shouldn't automatically assume it's ISIS.
COOPER: Right, there's any number of groups that these people could have been affiliated with, either directly or even ideologically, al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula -
GHOSH: Yes.
COOPER: Al Qaeda, you know, otherwise known as al Qaeda in Yemen, al Qaeda in (INAUDIBLE). There's a number of groups. Or these could just be people who have not directly fought in Syria or somewhere else but who are just ideologically motivated with other -- some form of other military training. Apparently their French is extremely good. It doesn't sound like French spoken by somebody who's not a native speaker.
GHOSH: That's what - that's what we hear. And the other interesting thing is, if it's confirmed that they were carrying an RPG, a rocket- propelled grenade launcher, that's not easily got in France.
COOPER: Right.
GHOSH: Even Kalashnikovs, unlike the U.S., yes, criminal gangs have them, but they're not easy to get their hands on. So that also suggests a degree of planning probably for quite a while.
COOPER: Again, that's a relatively early report based on an eyewitnesses.
GHOSH: Yes.
COOPER: So, you know, these things often change, as all our viewers know, the reports early on in the first couple of hours. And that death toll, unfortunately, it's very possible it may rise. There are people who have been wounded in this attack. We're unclear on their condition.
Obviously, the entire scene has been cordoned off. Most of the killings, we're told, took place in the offices of this French magazine. Though clearly you saw at least one police officer being killed directly on the street, assassinated by one of the gunmen. Three terrorists still now on the loose and the manhunt underway, obviously, Bobby, in the city of Paris and elsewhere is huge.
As Christiane and I were talking about before, there had been a number of relatively smaller attacks, incidents throughout France over the last several weeks and months. Two people -- two vehicles were used to plow into pedestrians and attack on an individual wielding a knife, attacking in a police station. That individual was killed. So there have been a number of smaller incidents. The kind that we have seen throughout - in various places throughout the world, including the United States, but really nothing in Paris at this scale.
GHOSH: No. And the fact that this was long - this appears to have been planned for quite a while is very interesting because the French intelligence has extremely good connections in -- across communities in France, and they pride themselves at being able to spot danger coming well ahead of a flashpoint and eliminating it. They pride themselves on having great intelligence, access to radicalized communities within France. And the fact that this was able to slip through the cracks is also instructive. I think all of France is sort of deeply traumatized by this. Something on this scale has not happened in decades. There will be lots of questions about -- but intelligence questions and questions about intelligence failure will be one of them.
COOPER: You know, it's interesting when you see that video that we just showed, the close-up view where you see the gunmen moving toward the vehicle, picking up the shoe, you can actually, I believe, unless I'm mistaken, you can actually see that there are at least three gunmen. If we can show that, if we could rerack it and show that video again, the other one, the closer up view. Because though the camera dips down for a short period of time - let's try to get that video that we just showed. Again, that's the -- that's one of the gunmen assassinating a police officer, who has been lying -- whether or not the police officer was already shot is not clear to me.
But in the video that we're about to show, there are, it appears, at least three gunmen, which only two gunmen - see, here you see -- this is the video taken prior to the police officer being shot on the street. And now, look, you see two gunmen right there. one is running toward the other vehicle. It dips down for a moment and then suddenly there's a third gunman over there. Do you see that?
GHOSH: There's certainly a blur because the camera's moving around so fast. It's a little -- it's a little hard to tell. But that picking up of the shoe, as you said before, that's significant considering that both these men seem to have all -- both their shoes.
COOPER: If I am correct, and I think I am here, that you can actually see three gunmen. Again, now this is early on in the attack. This is shooting of the police officer. Now, here, two gunmen. One now disappears, running two - it dips down for a second. You see two gunmen again and then the -- a third gunman over there. So you only see two gunmen getting into this vehicle. If that other gunman does not enter this vehicle, it means they must have had a second vehicle.
GHOSH: A second vehicle. They're only two blocks away, as we saw a little while earlier with that --
COOPER: Unless, of course, that vehicle stopped to pick up the third gunman. And you know, you can only assume so much based on the video we're seeing. Obviously, a massive manhunt is underway. Security is now -- the threat level in Paris is at its highest level. Security has been beefed up at media organizations throughout the city of Paris, throughout France, and obviously, other targets in other possible places that these gunmen may try to escape from, train stations, airports, toll booths and the like. We're going to take a short break. Our coverage continues in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: Welcome back, I'm Anderson Cooper. We're continuing to report on the terror attack in Paris. At least 12 people have been killed. A massive manhunt now under way. France's Prime Minister visiting the scene of the attack. This taken just a few moments ago while we were in break. The prime minister touring the scene, which is obviously on lockdown, because as I said, throughout Paris the hunt is on for what police and Interior Ministry officials are saying are at least three attackers who they say were involved in this shooting incident. Joining me now is Haras Rafiq, the managing director for Quilliam, which is a think tank dedicated to combating extremism. Also joining us is CNN chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto.
Jim, let me start with you. What are you hearing from your sources? Obviously, French intelligence, France's President Francois Hollande, saying that they had stopped several attacks already earlier in the last week or so, several potential incidents, but obviously, this one they, as far as we know, didn't see coming.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question, that's always the problem with counterterror, right? The other side only has to be successful once. I'll tell you, the supreme focus of U.S. counterterorr officials this morning are a couple things. One is that the gunmen are still on the loose. They have to find them and quickly before they can attack again. That a supreme concern. And remember, in Europe there are putative borders, but there aren't really borders.
You can move from France to Germany to other countries within the E.U. without passing any border checkpoints, having to even show your passport. It's very easy to get around and a lot of transportation options, so it's easy for them to run and to hide. The other supreme focus of counterterrorism officials is they look at this video that we're showing again now. Is the sophistication of how this attack was carried out, which indicates training on the part of these attackers. The way they picked their targets, the way they used their weapons. The way they moved quickly to kill, frankly, and well and even just the information they had that the employees of this magazine were present in the office today. You know, many, as you said earlier, Anderson, often aren't in the office. How did they know that? How did they move so quickly and how were they trained so well to do this? That is information that is important for them right now.
It is, though, too early, and I know you commented on this, Anderson, to attribute this to a particular group, whether it be ISIS. We do know that some eyewitnesses heard them say that they were from al Qaeda in Yemen, but it's also a possibility that this was a group inspired by one of these groups, as opposed to operationally tied to those groups. Although, they do show some training which might be difficult to get on your own just as a lone wolf attacker. Still not definitive at this point, but it's certainly a focus of U.S. counterterror officials who are, as you know, offering their help to their French allies.
COOPER: Haras Rafi for Quilliam Foundation, a group which tries to counter extremism. A., I'm wondering what you make of the attack, what you have seen thus far, and also the response that it has been getting from people in Paris and throughout the Muslim world.
HARAS RAFIQ, MANAGING DIRECTOR, QUILLIAM: I think just to answer some of the things that have already been talked about, certainly, the sophistication tells us about the planning, the way they hold their weapons, the way they actually go to kill, et. cetera, but also if you look at the way they return to the car. We know from the sophistication of planning that they've thought this through and simple tactics and strategy tell us that. If the car was their escape route, which it clearly was, they would haven't left that unguarded, so clearly there was at least one other person, either near the car or keeping an eye on the car of the escape vehicle. Secondly, I just want to focus on something.
It's very, very dangerous to actually say that this particular group -- gunmen were inspired by ISIL, because maybe about nine years, ten years ago we were talking about al Qaeda-inspired terrorism, then it was Al-Shabaab-inspired terrorism, then Boko Haram, etc., and now ISIL. The reality is that these groups are inspired by Islamism and there are so many self-starters who are actually deeply entrenched in the ideology where they believe that groups, organizations like this particular magazine are people who are betraying blasphemy and they should be dealt with in a particular way. That's what we need to tackle. That's what the community in France, that's what the community in the West, that's' what we at Quilliam - and I know we've spoken about this before -- we really need to tackle long term if we're going to make sure that we stop these barbarous acts from happening in the future.
COOPER: You use the term self-starters, other people say lone wolves, that's another term you guys at Quilliam actually use. I know (INAUDIBLE) doesn't like to use that. You focus on self-starters. To you, what is the difference?
RAFIQ: Lone wolf generally suggests that there's somebody who may have been sitting in a bedroom on the Internet or doing something else and suddenly decided that he or she wants to actually go out and carry out some sort of attack. Well, the reality is, Anderson, people don't go on the Internet looking to buy a pair of shoes or a handbag and end up becoming a Jihadi. They have to be looking for something. They have to be looking for someone or they have to be approached by someone, and thereafter they actually then have to be motivated, they have to be trained in the ideology, they have to believe in the ideology and then they actually have to then work in conjunction with other people, in terms of actually moving towards some sort of final attack. These particular people were not lone wolves, they were well-trained, they were -- the attack was professionally planned. These were self -- potentially self-starters, but they may well have been linked directly to some sort of organization. But at the end, it doesn't matter that much, for as in the long term, which organization they were affiliated to. But we do know that they're affiliated to Islamism as an ideology and that's what needs to be counted.
COOPER: And we're seeing the aftereffects of the attack, the bullet holes in buildings, in cars that are being moved. Jim Sciutto, again, just a stunning attack in broad daylight in the 19th hour in Paris. SCIUTTO: That's right, Anderson, and this just in from the U.S.
Embassy in Paris. The U.S. Embassy announcing there that despite reports, they say there were no plans to close or limit access to the U.S. Embassy in Paris or other diplomatic facilities in France, so the U.S. keeping those diplomatic operations open. And interestingly, Anderson, I'm sure you've seen this on Twitter that a number of people have -- it's become a popular Twitter hashtag, "Je suis Charlie," "I am Charlie," a statement of support. And the U.S. Embassy in France has changed its Twitter profile picture to that cartoon, "Je suis Charlie," as a sign of solidarity in effect with the French people today. We also know, Anderson, that in a short time we expect Secretary of State John Kerry to comment on these attacks in France, as well.
COOPPER: And Bobby Ghosh, briefly, a lot of people have been tweeting me asking where the name Charlie Hebdo comes from. Hebdo is a sort of derivation of the term weekly?
GHOSH: Actually more daily, periodical. Charlie actually comes from another magazine, "Charlie - it was called "Charlie Mensuel," "Charlie Weekly," which years ago used to be a comic book magazine and Charlie Brown. So that magazine's name was inspired by Charlie Brown. This one took its inspiration indirectly -- from Charlie Brown.
COOPER: Thank you very much for joining us in this hour. I'm Anderson Cooper, the next hour of NEWSROOM starts right after a break. And obviously, our coverage continues throughout the day. We'll be right back.
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