Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
News Coverage Of Terror Attack Against "Charlie Hedbo"
Aired January 10, 2015 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Fredericka. And welcome to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris.
And here's in Paris, we're going to give you the very latest, a fresh wave of fear rising tonight. A French police source telling our CNN terror analyst that terror sleeper cells were activated over the last 24 hours inside France. Police officers here have been told to erase all traces of their online presence on social media and to keep their weapons close at all times.
Meanwhile, the hunt is on for the world's most-wanted terror companion, 26-year-old Hayat Boumeddiene is the only person suspected of connections to the terror spree in Paris who is still alive. A Turkish source telling CNN that Boumeddiene entered Turkey on January 2nd from France. A French source tells CNN that she then may have been heading on to Syria.
And this, CNN has learned that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will be in Paris tomorrow for a rally in the wake of this week's terror attacks after four hostages were killed at a kosher grocery store. Netanyahu told French Jews that Israel was also their home.
And meantime, Hezbollah's leader is reportedly slamming the terrorists who slaughtered 12 people at "Charlie Hebdo" satirical magazine. According to the "Associated Press," he is quoted as saying that Islamist terrorists have done more to harm the religion and insult the prophet Mohammed than anyone who drew a cartoon or wrote a book.
I want to bring in now our expert panel to talk about these major developments, the news changing by the minute here. Joining me now, global affairs analyst, Bobby Ghosh. Our national security analyst Peter Bergen as well as senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen just outside that grocery store where those four hostages were killed yesterday in eastern Paris.
Bobby, perhaps I can start with you. This new report that sleeper cells have been activated inside France, what, if any, warnings should be going out to French people right now? I noticed, walking down the (INAUDIBLE) these evening that people were out. You can see that to some degree behind me that traffic is still going, next through a pedestrian traffic as well. And I saw some police officers out as well. How serious do you consider this warning?
BOBBY GHOSH, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think if the French police are taking it seriously, they do have excellent connections inside radical groups and very good track record in espionage, then it should be taken very seriously.
The difficulty, of course, now is that after the incidents of this week, many French people want to come out in defiance, as we've seen with all these rallies and marches and parades. They want to show the terrorists that they are unafraid, that they are unbowed, and you want to -- you know, you can understand that impulse. The determination to show that they will not be frightened into locking -- into staying behind locked doors. And at the same time, you have this heightened risk.
So for French security, this is a really difficult moment where if, indeed, these cells are more active, then there are more targets available to them because more and more French people are coming out in protest in this way.
SCIUTTO: I'm glad you mentioned that, Bobby, just credit where credit is due. As I've been walking around Paris today, I have seen people doing exactly that, showing their defiance, frankly just by living their lives. And there's one big visible demonstration of that right now on the top of the Arc De Triomphe, just behind you can't make the words out from here.
But at the top it in lights are spelled out the words, Paris, Charlie. So mimicking that now very popular Internet hashtag "Je Suis Charlie," I am Charlie, I am the magazine saying the city of Paris is.
Peter, I wonder if you can help put this latest terror warning into context for our viewers. I was told, for instance, in the last 48 hours by a former head of France's counter terror services that there is something along the lines of 5,000 suspected terrorists in France. If you have this warning going out of sleeper cells activated, can you give a sense of how big that threat would be? How many sleeper cells? Do we just not know? Is it unlikely that even the French authorities know how many potential attackers there are out there tonight?
PETER BERGEN, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Well, yes. I mean, we've seen varying estimate of the number of people, for instance, who have gone to Syria from France. It is the largest group of westerners who have traveled to the Syrian conflict. The British government estimates 700 have gone. Not clear which groups they've joined. I saw in today's "New York Times" of an estimate of 1,000 to 2,000.
So the point is that that is a very large number. And as you've been reporting, Jim, over the last couple of days, I mean, for each one -- in the tier one case of these suspects, I mean, you have 20 individuals that will need to monitor, a particular individual, so you do the math. I mean, it's just an extraordinary number of people that you would need to follow around people who are deemed to be dangerous because of this very large group of people who have gone to Syria including, it seems, perhaps now, the girlfriend of the people who pulled off the "Charlie Hebdo" attack.
So, you know, it is basically I think that it's an almost impossible thing to do. It is, however, somewhat simplified by social media, electronic surveillance. I mean, you don't have to monitor physically all of these people. And presumably, you have phone numbers and sort of email accounts and stuff. So that makes it a little bit easier. But still, it's an impossible task to look at everybody who might be a suspect.
SCIUTTO: Yes, the numbers described to me, three to ten officers to follow just one target. If you have 5,000 potentials, that gets us very quickly into the tens of thousands of personnel, just not possible.
We do know that tonight in light of this latest threat but also just the attacks that have played out over the last three to four days, that hundreds more French police and frankly military as well have been deployed in and around Paris to help increase security, plus in preparation for tomorrow's planned march in solidarity where you have leaders such as Netanyahu and others coming here, security for that as well.
Fred Pleitgen, you're outside that kosher grocery store where I was yesterday as well as the siege unfolded. Big news today that the French now saying that the girlfriend of the attacker there, Amedy Coulibaly, who, there was -- you and I were talking about. Yesterday, there was talk that you might have been in that grocery store. Now they say, frankly in fact, she left a number of days ago. What are the details, and how did police learn this just now?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it appears as though the Turkish authorities also knew about this as well. They said that they were tracking her inside Turkey. That she got there on January 2nd and apparently later made her way on to Syria.
And so the French authorities, which obviously have been putting out the dragnet trying to find this woman at some point must have been found out that, in fact, she hasn't been inside France for a very long time, or at least before these events here unfolded.
One of the things that we also have to keep in mind is she was also very much sought after also due to the fact that they thought that she was part of that killing of the police officer that happened here on Thursday where Coulibaly apparently shot that police officer, then got away and then later went here on the kosher grocery store.
So the French authorities would obviously still very much like to speak to this woman. However, at this point that would be impossible. However, still of the four people they believe have been involved in these plots that have unfolded here over the past couple of days, she is the only one who's still alive, and she would, obviously, have a lot of very sensitive information that would be very important to them.
One of the things, however, Jim, I have to say that's been going on here tonight is that there has been a vigil also for the people who were killed in that raid. It's been very important to the folks here. There were a large number of members of the Jewish community who came out here. And I do have to say there's a lot of people from the Jewish community who were very upset at what happened and who quite frankly are very concerned about what happened. Of course, Francois Hollande, the president of this country, called
this an anti-Semitic attack. And when we had the vigil going on here a little less than an hour ago, you did have people here with banners screaming "Je Suis Charlie," of course equating these two incidents and also making note of the fact that part of it, at least, there was an anti-Semitic attack that went on.
The Jewish community here in France, of course, has been saying for a very long time that anti-Semitism is on the rise, that they realize it's not even a small fraction of the Muslim community that's doing that, but it is a faction that is, in fact, growing. And it is something of great concern, and that concern, I have to say, was something that came out in the street today.
In fact, I'd like to show you something because the debate about all this is going on tonight here in the streets of Paris. If we just pan over here really quick, we can see that folks are debating what's going on right now. There's a sort of trove of people a little further. There they are. Who have been debating this for a very long time. And this situation actually even got a little bit rowdy for a while when some people started screaming a little louder, a little sort of -- I wouldn't say a fight, but a little bit of back-and-forth sort of broke out.
But it is something where people are seriously having these debates where the Jewish community is saying we have some serious concerns about what's going on. And it seems as though at this point in time this nation is debating on what this new dialogue between Christians, Muslims and Jews needs to look like in this country. And they've certainly come to realize that they need some sort of new mode of operation in this country after these horrifying attacks that have taken place and also all the things in the run-up to what happened here over the past couple of days, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Fred, I'm glad you made that point. It is a necessary debate. And just to remind viewers outside of France, outside of Europe and back in the U.S. that in recent elections in Europe, you've had a number of far right parties, certainly here in France, the national front and in other countries in Europe, the UK, et cetera, that have had far right parties who are anti-immigrant with very, you know, offensive views, frankly, to many, garner significant support in national elections, and the anger goes in many directions because just in the last two, three days, you've had attacks on mosques, kabob shops, part of the backlash against the Muslim faith as well.
I want to get to a point you raised as well, Fred, and ask Bobby and Peter about it because this gets to how do countries such as France and Europe and the U.S. track all these terrorists moving around particularly with the supreme concern focused on foreign fighters returning from Syria to their homes in Europe and possibly to the U.S. where they might carry out terror attacks?
Peter, I might go to you. It appears there was a major disconnect here, if the French were not aware until today that someone with deep connections to terrorists here, this Hayat Boumeddiene, traveled to Turkey -- well, really more than a week ago. I've been talking to U.S. intelligence officials for a number of months about the concern of the returning foreign fighters. They've talked about the increased communication, cooperation among western intelligence agencies to fight this. This seems to have been a hole exposed in that kind of movement, communication and tracking of that kind of movement back and forth. Peter, significant?
BERGEN: Yes. I mean, I think, you know, you can drive from Paris to Damascus, effectively, without, you know, much of a problem. I mean, that's part of the issue. Secondly, I think the French only belatedly begun to realize that this was a major issue for them in November of last year. They basically made it a crime to go and travel to join a terrorist organization in a country like Syria or Iraq which was sort of closing the barn door after the horse had bolted.
And finally, I think that we are, you know, I think the Turks themselves have had a not particularly great role in this. I've talked to senior law enforcement officials recently who say the Turks have got a better handle on this and certainly the fact that they've flagged the travel of Hayat, the girlfriend, right now is indicative of that. But previously, it was a bit of an open season. That anybody that went to Turkey could get into Syria pretty easily. So there's quite a lot of blame to go all around here, Jim.
SCIUTTO: No question. And to be fair, we're talking about hundreds, we're talking about thousands of people. This is difficult for any intelligence agency to do, but the fact is, that is the problem that they are facing today.
I would add the note that in the case of Hayat Boumeddiene, she boarded a flight for Turkey when it would be different from driving a car. So you would at least have a moment when she had to show her passport. You would have a name, you know, the possibility of running a name through a computer system.
Bobby Ghosh, Peter Bergen, Fred Pleitgen on the scene of that kosher market shooting. Thanks very much for joining us. I'm going to turn to my colleague, Brianna Keilar. She's with us in the U.S. tonight and will be continuing to be with us in the U.S. tonight tracking all those developments -- Brianna?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Jim.
And as we mentioned, police from Paris to Istanbul are now on a frantic hunt for this woman. You just heard them talking about her. Hayat Boumeddiene. Who is she? How did she come to be involved in this terror plot? That's coming up after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to our viewers in the U.S. and overseas. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris. We're following a number of new developments tonight including word of a new terror alert here in France targeting police, as well as news. And we now know that those believed responsible for the "Charlie Hebdo" attacks have been killed. The search is now on for this woman Hayat Boumeddiene.
CNN's Brian Todd has more on her and her connection to the three dead Paris terrorists.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A western intelligence source tells CNN Boumeddiene lived with Coulibaly and the two once traveled to Malaysia together.
MATTHEW LEVITT, WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: We don't know if she was involved as some type of cover or more likely she was involved because she was radicalized along with her boyfriend and got sucked in to working together at some level. TODD: The French newspaper "Le Monde" published these photos
apparently of Boumeddiene with Coulibaly. CNN cannot independently verify the authenticity of the photos. "Le Monde" reports Boumeddiene once told police she and Coulibaly had once practiced firing crossbows in the countryside of central France as apparently shown in these pictures.
Hayat Boumeddiene had been in a relationship with Coulibaly since 2010 according to "Le Monde," and she was interviewed by counterterrorism police that same year. Analysts say while the number of female jihadists is growing, their male counterparts still consider them valuable cover.
LEWITT: Many of these people now have wives, have girlfriends, that enable them to do things they might not otherwise be able to do. You don't appear to be a lone young, angry man. You're walking with women.
TODD: We learned from the Paris prosecutor more solid information connecting Hayat Boumeddiene and her boyfriend to Koauchi brothers who attacked the magazine. The prosecutors say officials are aware of more than 500 phone calls made between Boumeddiene and the wife of suspect Cherif Kouachi.
Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: I want to bring in my colleague Brianna Keilar in New York. She's got a panel of experts to talk over these latest developments -- Brianna?
KEILAR: Thanks, Jim.
And joining me, we have global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh. He is the managing editor of Courts. We have political commentator Buck Sexton. He is a former CIA counterterrorism analyst and we have interrogation and terrorism expert Robert McFadden. He's a former special agent in charge at NCIS now with the Sufan group.
And Bobby, to you, something we've been talking a little bit about, the girlfriend, Hayat Boumeddiene. This is the girlfriend of the shooter in the kosher market in Paris. She -- we think she took part in some of the planning here. I mean, do we necessarily think that she did take part even if she had left days before? GHOSH: Well, the plot itself, from what we can deduce, it suggests
that this is something that they had been planning for a while. So yes, it's possible that she was part of the plan. The fact that she leaves Paris before the execution suggests, at the very least, they wanted to get her out of harm's way. They wanted to get her away from the police and from investigations.
Her exact participation, her exact role, we'll find out, I'm sure, in the days ahead as the sort of forensic evidence. We just heard her having 500 phone calls to one of the Kouachi brother's wife. That might be indicative. We'll know more in the next few days.
KEILAR: Yes. And we certainly do expect to know more.
We were talking in the last panel about being able to track these individuals, knowing that so many people may have come back or may be inspired to pursue a similar extremist path. But are these guys different. But are this guys different, Buck, do you think? I mean, these are the brothers were known. They're on the U.S. no-fly list. Mr. Coulibaly is certainly known, was in prison. I mean, is this something that shouldn't have gotten past the authorities in France?
BUCK SEXTON, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it certainly raises eyebrows that you have an individual who only serves 18 months for a terrorism offense. The French authorities have surveillance on him. But this is part of the soft underbelly of a free society. You can't lock somebody up for longer just because you have a very good inclination. The laws are what they are in France.
I think that any time this happens, there's this idea that somehow we could have perfect security if we did something differently, if there was some difference in either the law or the procedure. But quite honestly, the attacks are going to happen. It's cyclical in nature. We can point to similar attacks like this in the past. And I think what you see here is just the tactics and procedures of the French police, particularly the counterassault teams like the GIGN who are a big differentiator between what could have been more of a mass casualty attack and what we already saw.
KEILAR: You have saw one of the Kouachi brothers as the one who served 18 months for a terrorism-related offense. So that said, that is alarming in that it isn't much time. But at the same time, does that flag him in a way that makes him a priority for French authorities to really keep track of, do you think, Robert?
ROBERT MCFADDEN, VICE PRESIDENT, SUFAN GROUP: Should, should have been.
KEILAR: Was this a mistake?
MCFADDEN: Well, I mean, speaking to the sheer numbers, the French have challenges that we don't when you're talking about the numbers, the demographic makeup, the amount of foreign fighters.
But here's the comparison, though. In what we've heard over the last, now, over 48 hours about both of the brothers, the third party involved here, Amedy, the travel, the facilitation for foreign fighters into Iraq, attempt or actual travel over there, one brother had gone to Yemen. I can't imagine a scenario in the United States where -- and plus the prison time, the associations in prisons with other very bad characters, where we would have someone like that in the United States that wouldn't have been under incredible scrutiny.
KEILAR: I'm going to bring in Jim. He's in Paris. And he has a question for our panel here -- Jim?
SCIUTTO: I wonder, as you listen to this latest news we have tonight, perhaps I might ask bobby about this, and if the other panelists want to give their thoughts about new terror cells activated here in Paris, specifically targeting police. Can you help our viewers understand how France responds to that? It's a country of 50 million people. There are currently tens of thousands of police and security forces around the country responding to this terror threat. That is an enormous task to try to protect all of them. In fact, you're telling them to protect themselves by keeping their weapons close at all times, by erasing their profiles on social media. How enormous a task is that for French police to do successfully?
GHOSH: That is a huge task because as we were saying earlier, not only is there a large police force, that large police force is now out in the street to protect large numbers of French people who are coming out in demonstration, in sympathy for those who have been killed by the terrorists. So the police are even more vulnerable than they ever have been before. That detail that they've been asked to erase their social media profiles, that speaks to a very, very specific threat.
I've never heard a police force being asked to do that. I mean, many countries around the world, unfortunately, it's the nature of our times that different levels of alert are announced, but I've never heard that specific detail of alert being ordered. And that says to me, and maybe the other guests will agree, that that says to me something very, very particular has been uncovered.
SEXTON: There's always a threat. And I worked for the NYPD counterterrorism division. This is something we had to look at, even the aftermath of the Times Square bombing, for example, where you had a manhunt going on. And then after you had seized the individual responsible for the bombing in 2010, there were concerns about follow- on attacks. There were concerns about keeping the population safe while engaged in those secondary investigations and also trying to suppress any of the follow-on attacks that may come.
So there are a lot of moving pieces. And the problem is that you are expecting -- security forces either in France or my case in the U.S. to be successful 100 percent of the time. And if for no, we see what happen and it is tragedy. So, it is a very big ask.
The French counterterrorism police though, for example, are very well trained and French intelligence services are excellent. So they have a pretty good shot, as good a shot as most countries would, I think.
MCFADDEN: Indeed. I mean, in the event after something like this, the aftermath or this period right now where the French may be acting on intelligence they have and from the allies, but you have that period of uncertainty. So everything swings toward an arch conservative approach when it comes to security, and that's the period the French are in right now.
KEILAR: Gentlemen, thank you so much. Robert McFadden with us, Buck Sexton and Bobby Ghosh. Jim, back to you.
SCIUTTO: Thanks, Brianna.
And just a thought of reminding our viewers, there's a rally playing tomorrow expected here in Paris to draw as many as a million people marching through the streets. That adds to the security challenge for French police and anti-terror forces. We'll be covering that very closely here at CNN tomorrow.
Well, at the center of this investigation, a U.S.-born cleric who was once a feared jihadi, he was killed by the U.S. a few years ago. But now his name is resurfacing in this investigation. We'll explain who he is right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris.
There is mounting evidence that the two Paris terror attack suspects had training in Yemen. That is the home of an Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula once led by Anwar al-Awlaki until he was killed in a U.S. drone strike there 2011.
Cherif Kouachi, the younger of the two "Charlie Hebdo" attack suspects told a reporter by telephone shortly before he was killed on Friday that al-Awlaki paid him to come for Yemen. U.S. officials say it is likely that Said kouachi, the older brother, also crossed paths with Awlaki during a 2011 stint in Yemen.
CNN international correspondent Nic Robertson has more on the potential links here in Paris to the American Awlaki.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Anwar al-Awlaki. The radical American-born Yemen-based preacher killed in a U.S. drone strike September 2011, an inspiration for some of the Paris gunmen and supporters worldwide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He reminds me of, for example, Osama bin Laden and also Ayman al-Zawahiri in terms of he's soft-spoken, and at the same time, the knowledge that they have.
ROBERTSON: Reality was, al-Awlaki was such a rising Al-Qaeda star in 2011, bin Laden was jealous of him, blowing off suggestions the cleric should run Al-Qaeda in Yemen. Al-Awlaki's father was a minister in the Yemeni government. He had lived in the USA, was smart and privileged, had preached at a mosque in Virginia. But was named in the 9/11 commission as knowing some of the 9/11 hijackers. Soon after, he left for Yemen. That's where this man, Morton Storm, a Danish biker-turned-jihadi who
says he became a CIA spy, met him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His passion to retain the west and spread this global jihad, it was his whole life. He sacrificed his life to achieve that.
ROBERTSON: He also had a taste for western women. Storm says Awlaki asked to fix him up with a white blonde European wife. They met on video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This recording is done specifically for the brother who is carrying this recording, this is a trustworthy brother.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Headscarves. I hope you will be pleased with it.
ROBERTSON: Amina could not be reached by CNN. Storm says the CIA used him to track al-Awlaki who had become reclusive fearing a U.S. attack, but he was also becoming more dangerous, asking Storm and others to recruit western radicals for training.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Once they have trained, he will request of the leadership of Al-Qaeda, will request that he will return back to the west and then wait for orders.
ROBERTSON: His tally of hits and near-misses was growing, inspiring Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan who had gunned down 13 servicemen at the base in 2009. And the London subway bombers in 2005 who killed 52 people. Also inspiring two foiled plots to blow up U.S. airliners flying to the United States.
By the time he was killed, al-Awlaki had become a massive global threat, but Storm warns the Paris attacks may not be the last time he reaches from beyond the grave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are sleeper cells, and they are will be to be patient for even a couple of years to be ready to hit.
ROBERTSON: With this Paris threat apparently nearly over, the world's counterterrorism officials can turn their attention to that looming threat.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Should the west be as worried about Yemen as we are today about Iraq and Syria? U.S. counter terror officials have told me the answer to that question is yes, for sure. We're going to talk about that more with our panel right after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto in Paris. And we want to update you now on the very latest. A French police
source telling CNN that terror sleeper cells were activated just over the last 24 hours inside France. Police officers have been told tonight to erase all traces of their online presence on social media and to keep their weapons close at all times.
Meanwhile, the hunt is on for the world's most-wanted terror companion, 26-year-old Hayat Boumeddiene is the only person suspected of connections to the terror spree here in Paris who remains alive today.
And this, CNN has learned that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will be in Paris tomorrow for a rally in the wake of this week's terror attacks. That rally expected to draw some one million people to the French capital.
Well, there is growing evidence pointing to ties between the Kouachi brothers accused of carrying out the Paris magazine attacks and Al- Qaeda cells inside Yemen. There is also a reported claim which CNN cannot verify that Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula or AQAP, says it orchestrated the attack on the magazine "Charlie Hebdo." The government of Yemen says it has launched an investigation into a possible link between the two.
Brianna Keilar joins me now, again, from New York -- Brianna?
KEILAR: Thanks, Jim.
That's the question. Do these attacks have a link to Yemen? And here to discuss this again, we have CNN global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh, Buck Sexton and senior vice president of the Sufan group and former NCIS special agent in charge, Robert McFadden. We also have CNN national security analyst Peter Bergen who wrote "Manhunt: the ten- year search for bin Laden."
How worried, Peter, I'll start with you, how worried should the west be about AQAP, Al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula?
BERGEN: Well, they just conducted the most deadly terrorist attack in Europe in a decade. So I think that speaks for itself. I mean, I think the evidence that Al-Qaeda in Yemen was behind this attack is simply overwhelming. It's not a case of speculation now.
We have one of the principal perpetrators giving the interview to French television saying he was behind it. We have eyewitnesses at the scene, also hearing this claim when the attack on the magazine happened. We have AQAP saying that they were behind this. I mean, I just don't -- and we also have all this travel to Yemen by both brothers.
So I don't think -- it's no longer an open question. This is a group that has succeeded actually until recently, isn't been a record of failure. Their plans to attack American airlines all fizzled. But now they have this big win, unfortunately.
BERGEN: And do you expect, Peter, that this is really the template that we are going to see happen again?
BERGEN: Brianna, I'm never sure there's a real template because I think, you know, if you're a terrorist, you kind of, like, improvise given the situation. But if you look at what happened on Wednesday at the attack on the magazine, it's kind of a hybrid of what happened in the Boston marathon bombings minus the bombing and also the Mumbai attacks with multiple gunmen where you basically keep the whole thing going for as long as possible. You know you're going to die at the end of it. And, you know, you get three days of sustained global media coverage, as happened in all those cases.
KEILAR: All right, Peter. I'm going to bring Jim back in. I know Jim Sciutto, there with us in Paris, I know you have some questions for our panel here.
SCIUTTO: Thank you, Brianna.
Interesting day today as we not only digest the attacks in the last three and four days here in Paris, but look forward to the possibility of new attacks here. And two major questions seem to have been raised. One is how does France respond to the possibility there are other sleeper cells out there? But two, what does the fact that this attack happened say about France's ability to do that in light of the fact that these attackers were known to the security services here, for a time they had been under surveillance but were no longer under surveillance when those attacks began on Wednesday.
I suppose, I wonder if I could ask that second question first. And Peter, maybe you want to come in on that. Do you consider this an intelligence failure, one? And two, what does that say to you about France's ability looking forward in light of additional threats to prevent further attacks?
BERGEN: I'll tell, hindsight is always 20/20. I mean, if you look at the Boston bombings, Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the older brother, who basically led the attack, you know, he was the subject of FBI scrutiny. And then, you know, you kind of fell off the radar. He was also involved, it looks like, in a triple murder in the Boston area which was never really pursued properly by local police.
So -- and major Nidal Hasan, we mentioned earlier in the show, look, he exchanged all these emails with al-Awlaki. That was known to the FBI. One part of the FBI wanted to investigate him. One part of the FBI dropped the ball.
So, you know, do the thought experiment where an attacker comes along who has never showed up on the radar screen of law enforcement. In a way, that's an even worse picture. Typically with these terrorists attack, there have been some indicators that they should have been more carefully paid attention to, whether that's in the United States or France or anywhere else, Jim.
KEILAR: All right.
SCIUTTO: Brianna -- Brianna, I think from both of our --
KEILAR: Sorry, Jim. Go ahead.
SCIUTTO: No, Brianna, I was just going to say that, you know, it's only fair that intelligence services, counterterrorist services, have tremendously a difficult job whether it's in the U.S. or here in Europe. And I suppose, Brianna, we're seeing that play out here both in these attacks this week but as France and other countries try to prevent new attacks.
KEILAR: Certainly. And I wonder, to follow on what we heard Peter talking about, do you feel that this is an intelligence failure, or is it -- is it that there are so many young Muslim men in France who have gone from anger to extremism that even at this point, even though we're talking about a very small fraction of the Muslim population, obviously it is a very small fraction, and that's important to note. But are there enough people like these brothers and like the market shooter that you just can't keep up with them? What do you think?
SEXTON: I think that that's the case. I mean, when you look at radicalization in France, one of the big problems that domestic intelligence services always have to deal with is catching that gap or people in that gap between radicalization, radical ideas and actually jihadization or taking it to the level of a terror attack.
I mean, you have the situation you do just in the suburbs of Paris, for example, with regular burnings of cars, hundreds of cars were burned them. There will be riots. There are individuals who are certainly spewing radical rhetoric. But that doesn't mean you can throw them in jail for a long period of time. It doesn't they are necessarily going through and be engaged on attack.
France does have really robust surveillance capability. Their laws actually are much less defensive of civil liberty than people realize. They can essentially pull what they want to pull in terms of someone's information. Even with that ability, people are going to slip through the cracks. And this is an abhorrent, although, it's kind of inevitable at the same time. There will be these kinds of attack.
KEILAR: It's like drinking out of a fire hose at this point, I think.
I want you guys to stay with me. We are going to come back to you with some other questions, Robert, Buck and Bobby. Get a quick commercial break in here.
And as France reacts to these events, many are asking, were the attacks an act of vengeance for the death of American-born Al-Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki? We'll go inside the story of the double agent who risked it all to take down one of the world's most dangerous terrorists. "Double Agent: inside Al-Qaeda for the CIA." That's tonight at 9:00 eastern only on CNN.
And despite the tragedy, "Charlie Hebdo" is moving forward with a new issue next Wednesday. Eight pages. This is a defiant show that the cartoonists cannot be silenced by terrorists. We have that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: The editorial staff of "Charlie Hebdo" magazine met on Friday to begin work on their upcoming issue. They held their meeting at "the Liberation" newspaper. Really it's the first time that the staff had to meet elsewhere since their building was firebombed back in 2011. "Charlie Hebdo's" attorney spoke for the entire staff, many of whom were in tears.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD MALKA, ATTORNEY, CHARLIE HEBDO MAGAZINE (through translator): We're also here to work, so we are going to forget about the craziness outside this room. We are going to forget about the video cameras. We are simply going to work on our next issue. Those who are here will make it work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Joining me now to talk about "Charlie Hebdo" and its decision to get right back to work is CNN senior media correspondent and host of "RELIABLE SOURCES," Brian Stelter.
And Brian, I know that you spoke with someone who was in that meeting. This must have been so emotional.
BRIAN STELTER, CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: Yes, this was the first editorial meeting yesterday. And now they are at work again today and will be through the weekend preparing this publication. They've said they want to print a million copies next week. Usually they print 60,000 copies a week. So you can imagine the interest is going to be next Wednesday when this comes out.
KEILAR: What's the message that they're trying to send because to get -- even really to kind of get out of bed and meet the day and to go back to work just a couple of days after this happened. This is amazing, and this was so difficult.
STELTER: Yes.
KEILAR: What do they want people and the terrorists to take away from this?
STELTER: To print anything would be a statement and will be a statement next week. But what they're printing is also very interesting. What they're discussing printing, anyway, is also very interesting.
According to the person who was in this meeting, Isabel Hahn, they talked about potentially not running obituaries of the dead cartoonists, but instead running unpublished cartoons they had created in the past. They talked about not wanting to print blank pages. That was a possibility as well. And you could imagine that would come up as an idea. They don't want to have emptiness in the newspaper of the magazine. They want to fill it with content. Not necessarily with obituaries, not necessarily looking back at what happened last week, but instead showing a more triumphant face and putting out an issue. It doesn't feel like a tribute but feels like what they would have always done.
KEILAR: But in' a way, it is a tribute, right? Their obituaries will be their work.
STELTER: That's right. That's exactly the idea. And of course, this is all evolving. But you can imagine the meetings they're in trying to figure that out. And there was one quote from the meeting yesterday that was really striking. I will read it. It says I think we can also say and we should express in the issue that we've been very lonely these past few years.
You know, that there weren't a lot of other magazines like them out there that were taking the kinds of risks, being as provocative and as incendiary as they were about all religions, by the way, not just about Islam, not just extreme forms of Islam.
They're obviously not lonely right now. They've had so much support come in, both financial as well as moral support, whether it's other newspapers, magazines republishing some of their cartoons or whether it's donations from "the Guardian" and from a press fund backed by Google and by others.
KEILAR: And if they are hoping -- real quick, if they're hoping for a million copies, how many would they normally print?
STELTER: Usually 60,000.
KEILAR: 1-6? 6-0?
STELTER: 6-0. So we are talking at least 14 times as many as would normally come out. I have a feeling it will maybe even get higher than that, not to mention all the digital copies. I mean I think most people will want to see this online, if they can't get a copy here in the U.S., for example, they'll be able to see it on the Internet.
KEILAR: Many people who didn't necessarily know what "Charlie Hebdo" was even.
STELTER: No. Who didn't even know how to pronounce the name but are now very curious.
KEILAR: All right, Brian Stelter, thank you so much.
And there is question, is Al-Qaeda's plan more than a bloody terror attack as the group also looking to turn France against all Muslims? How would that work? We have that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KEILAR: By all appearances the "Charlie Hedbo" terror attack has united the French people but it may have also further isolated French Muslims and several experts are suggesting that the latter is exactly what the terrorists might have wanted all along. They say right now most Muslims do not sympathize with Al-Qaeda. But the terror attack incites non-Muslims to be hostile towards all Muslims then it might provoke Muslims enough to start supporting Al-Qaeda. I'm joined now by CNN global affairs analyst Bobby Ghosh to talk more
about this.
You have a different take on, Bobby. I mean, you don't necessarily think that there will be a backlash of all Muslims from non-Muslims who feel isolated from the, quote-unquote, "mainstream" of French society.
GHOSH: I think that's less likely. Right now, you'll go through of some days, maybe some weeks where there's tension and there maybe some fear and some antagonism. But I think in the long run that will begin to fade.
Ten percent of the population of France is Muslim. What that means is that almost every French person who is not a Muslim knows somebody who is a Muslim. You encounter Muslims all the time in France. If you do, if you see them in your grocery store, if you see them in your office, if you see them in your neighborhood, your kids are going to school with other kids who are Muslim, if that's the case, then, you know that most Muslims are not like this.
It's hard to paint Muslims as the other if you're constantly interacting with them. And the analog for this, the example for this is what happened in Britain after the 77 attacks in London. There was a similar fear that the non-Muslim Brits would turn against Muslims. It did not happen for similar reasons, because British people know Muslims, see them, encounter them, see them on television, see them in their public life all the time.
KEILAR: But let me ask you to play devil's advocate here. So if someone knows someone, they see them in the grocery store, they work with them, they're Muslim, fine. But what about Muslims that they don't know that maybe they're not going to give the benefit of the doubt to? Is that a possibility?
GHOSH: Yes. I think certainly now, right now, when the nation is going through a trauma and let's not understate that. It is a big trauma for the French state especially since this is an attack that was conducted by French nationals, French citizens. It's a big blow.
So, there will be a period I think when people are suspicious, antagonistic and let's not forget, there are political bodies in France. We were talking about them earlier, the right wing extremist political parties that will seek to stoke up this anger and anxiety.
KEILAR: Yes.
GHOSH: But I think, you know, I have faith in France's -- in French society that they will in the long term even in the medium term be able to absorb this blow and get past it. French Muslim are very much part of French culture. There's a lot of communications. Yes, there is a very large proportion of French Muslim population that's very poor, that is destitute --
KEILAR: Let's talk about that, though.
GHOSH: Yes.
KEILAR: How do you deal with that section of the population that feels disenfranchised, that is angry, that looks at something like this especially some of the younger folks and something like this may appeal to them?
GHOSH: Well, there are two narratives coming out of this we should be conscious of. One, yes, there is the narrative of the Kouachis and Coulibaly. But there's also the narrative of the French copy editor at "Charlie Hedbo" who died. There's the narrative of the French policeman -- Muslim policeman who died. There's the narrative of the young French man who at the grocery -- at the --
KEILAR: Kosher market.
GHOSH: Kosher market, protected the lives of some shoppers. So, there are two narratives coming out, as they should be. That allows young people -- that gives young French people a different story, a different thing to aspire to. And hopefully as we've already seen that's the narrative that will become the dominant one and that's the narrative that the French -- the Muslim community will want to embrace in ways that will be -- will be constructive.
KEILAR: That certainly is the hope. And Bobby Ghosh, we'll continue our conversation throughout the hours ahead. Thank you so much.
More breaking news coverage of the terror attack in France, new reports, an order for terror cells to be activated while police and security forces launch a massive hunt and worry that a key suspect may have slipped through their fingers. We have that ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
