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James Holmes Appears in Centennial, Colorado, Courtroom; President Obama to Deliver State of the Union Address Tonight; New Season of "Inside Man" Starts Thursday

Aired January 20, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Half the bottom of the hour, you're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

Right now jury selection is getting under way in the trial of the man accused of that movie theater massacre at the release of "the dark knight rises." James Holmes is in the courtroom in Centennial, Colorado. And it was the summer of 2012 when Holmes allegedly called himself the joker and then entered a crowded movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, and without warning began spraying people with bullets from his AR-15 and did not stop until it was jammed. When it was over, 12 people were dead, 58 were wounded.

Now, Holmes has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. And now, listen to this number, 9,000 people are getting called for possible jury duty in the case in a trial that may not be over until thanksgiving.

Ana Cabrera is on this for us from Centennial, Colorado outside of a courtroom. And back with us is our CNN senior legal senior analyst Jeffrey Toobin.

So Ana, let me just begin with you. And when you hear the number, ever Jeff Toobin, we were talk in commercial, couldn't believe the 9,000 number for the jurors. Why is that?

ANA CABRERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right, 9,000. To put that in perspective, that's even more than were summoned in the Boston bombing trial. But there are a few reasons here.

First, this happened two-and-a-half years ago. And there has been a tremendous amount of media coverage in the past couple of years regarding this high-profile case. And of course, it's happening, this trial taking place in the same jurisdiction where the crime was committed. Also, this is a death penalty case. So people who don't believe in the death penalty are automatically going to be excluded as potential jurors. And it's a case about sanity. James Holmes pleading not guilty by reason of insanity, essentially meaning he admits he was the gunman but that he didn't know what he was doing was wrong when the crime was committed. His lawyers say that he was in the middle of some kind of psychotic episode and suffering from severe mental illness when he went into that theater on that fateful night. So 12 jurors ultimately will decide his fate. Twelve alternates will

also be selected from this humongous jury pool. They want to cast a wide net in the hope to really being able to determine who's going to be impartial, who is going to be fair in determining both the sanity piece as well as this ultimate death penalty or being locked up in an institution for the rest of his life, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Ana Cabrera, you bring up insanity. And Jeff Toobin, that's where I wanted to begin. I was reading "the Denver Post" today. There was a piece by Alicia Caldwell. And she asks, what kind of insane was he when he sprayed those bullets? She said, either was the kind of insane where he'll be locked up in a mental institution for the rest of his life or it's the kind of insane in which he was clearly cognizant enough to carry out such a heinous attack.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, the legal system has been struggling with precisely this question not for 100 years but for 200 years. Defining what is sane and what is insane is just really hard to do. The best way I can explain it, and I hope no one takes offense, but this is the clearest way I can do it, is that if a murderer really believes that he is shooting a group of watermelons, not people, watermelons, then he's legally insane. But if he knows he is killing people, even if the reason he's killing people is irrational and stupid and heinous and immoral, then he's not legally insane.

BALDWIN: So then how do you determine whether it's, to use your example, watermelons or actual people? Is that when they look at the notes, the plotting, the planning?

TOOBIN: That's where it gets very difficult. I mean, it's hard enough to define what legal insanity is. Then to slot someone into the category using the evidence that's available, you have psychiatric people who evaluate the defendant.

I mean, John Hinkley, who shot president Reagan way back in 1981, that's when the country really first focused on this issue. And he was found not guilty by reason of insanity. And now in recent years, he's been allowed away from the institution for longer and longer periods of time.

So it can be really beneficial to be found not guilty by reason of insanity as opposed to being convicted, especially of course in a state like this, in Colorado, where the death penalty is a possibility.

BALDWIN: And then finally, just to hit this point, Holmes, I think you were telling me in commercial break, the Tsarnaev jury selection, they were looking from a pool of 1300?

TOOBIN: Correct.

BALDWIN: And this is 9,000 people.

TOOBIN: I've never heard of that many people. I mean, look, you know, they must -- they don't want to waste people's time, but it just shows how these high-profile cases impose such tremendous costs on the community because when you pull that many people in, when you send that many questionnaires out, it's enormously expensive. And you know, in addition to the horrible personal cost that's been imposed in this area, you know, it's just a lot of dollars.

BALDWIN: Jeff Toobin, thank you. Ana Cabrera, thank you as well in Colorado.

Coming up, Pope Francis unplugged. Again, this time the pontiff raising some eyebrows with his reminder to catholic about reproducing responsibly. We'll leave it at that for now. But stick around and you'll hear what he really said.

Plus, robots that look eerily like humans. Why companies are making these life like models. Morgan Spurlock, "the Inside Man," joins me live on this coming up.

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BALDWIN: Just about five hours from now, President Obama will take a ride down Pennsylvania avenue. He will walk into the U.S. capitol with millions watching from home and deliver the annual state of the union address to members of both the House and the Senate.

So to Washington we go. Let's talk about this with congressmen from both parties helping us out both on the left and the right respectively. You have Representative Ben Rey Lujan, New Mexico democrat and Congressman Luke Messer in Indiana, Republican.

Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Glad to be here.

BALDWIN: Congressman Lujan, let me just begin With you. we have sort of this early indication of what the president will address. We are told, you know, he'll propose a hike in capital gains tax, free community college tuition, paid leave for workers. And when you look at those issues, I mean, let's just face it, they're DOA on arrival in a Republican Congress.

My question to you is, let's look past this. I mean, is this speech really about setting the stage for 2016 and then thus putting your colleagues on the opposite side of the aisle on the defense?

REP. BEN REY LUJAN (D), NEW MEXICO: Brooke, middle class tax cuts should not be a nonstarter. I think what the president's going to lay out tonight is a clear path to help the middle class. You know, what we're seeing the economy get better, Wall Street is doing better, but the middle class is still feeling the squeeze. And tonight, is about reaching out to them, making sure that they understand that we're on their side and that we're going to be working with them. Middle class tax cuts is not about politics. This should not be a partisan issue. And I'm hoping my Republican colleagues will join us in making this a reality.

BALDWIN: But it is partially about politics here in those issues. And we can ask your colleague there, Congressman Messer, these are not survivable if you ask a Republican member of Congress.

REP. LUKE MESSER (R), INDIANA: Yes, I mean, this is about politics. It's a tax and spend policy out of the 1970s. It didn't work then and it wouldn't work now. You know, a couple decades ago in a state of the union, president Clinton famously declared that the era of big government was over. And once again, President Obama is declaring that it's back and from his mind should be roaring forward.

You know, rather than raising taxes and trying to redistribute the wealth, what we need is a healthy economy. You know, for example, last year the federal government received $3 trillion. That's a record. It's a 40 percent increase from just four years ago when it was $2.1 trillion. If we had that kind of growth in the private economy, we'd have the biggest economic boom in recent memory.

BALDWIN: Billion, trillion, I know it's hard to keep track. And I think both of you gentlemen would agree that we want to grow the economy, right?

But let me ask you, Congressman Messer, staying with you. You know, we heard from and I'll say potential, italicize, underline potential, you know, Republican presidential candidates. We heard those from Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush both talking about income inequality. And that's something I thought that you hear really more from Democrats. Is that -- do you think this is a victory that Republicans are sort of trying to kick off their own presidential campaigns? This is really primarily a left-leaning talking point.

MESSER: Yes, I mean, there's no question that shrinking paychecks are a reality for working Americans. The problem with this plan is not so much that it would somehow hurt the rich. The problem is it hurts the very people that tend to help. Because if you tax job creators, you get fewer jobs, which means fewer opportunities and lower wages.

Again, what we need is a healthy economy. And to do that, we have to stop spending money we don't have. We have to reform our tax code so it works for every day, hard-working Americans, and put more money in the pocketbook of consumers so they can grow the economy from the bottom up, not try to grow it from Washington.

BALDWIN: Let me loop back with you on this whole Mitt Romney potential issue here. But, Congressman Lujan, we know the president has overseen this rise in income inequality. That has to be a big problem for your party.

LUJAN: Well, Brooke, you know, the problem is that our Republican colleagues are calling targeted tax breaks to the middle class a nonstarter. Look, I think we can all agree, Democrats and Republicans, that the middle class needs our help. Again, Wall Street is doing great. People at the top are doing extraordinary well. But the middle class continues to feel that squeeze. So why not agree that we can work towards this effort?

And I don't know about my colleague, what folks he's talking about, but when I look in New Mexico, it's the middle class that are the business owners. They're the ones creating opportunities. They're the engine that we have to pay attention to. That's where my focus is. That's where Democrats' focus is. And I believe that's where the Congress' focus should be as well.

MESSER: And I would just add, the middle class has been hurt under the policies of this president. Paychecks are shrinking under this president. And frankly, this policy is more the same from this president. It would grow Washington at the expense of our broader American economy. What we need is a healthy economy and to make the common sense decisions it would take to get that jump start.

BALDWIN: All right.

LUJAN: The priorities have to be the middle class.

BALDWIN: I see both of you shaking, nodding. I have to ask you, Congressman Messer, before I let you go. Mitt Romney, could the third time be a charm? Would you support him?

MESSER: Listen, I want to have a candidate that can win in the 2016 race. Mitt Romney obviously is a good man and someone highly thought of in our party. I will listen to his faith.

BALDWIN: Is that a yes or a no?

MESSER: Not ready to say yes. We need to consider others. But he is certainly a legitimate candidate.

BALDWIN: Can he win?

MESSER: I think the first test of that will be can he win a primary. We'll have time to see.

BALDWIN: All right. Congressman Lujan and Congressman Messer, thank you both very, very much for joining me.

CNN's special coverage, of course, of the state of the union address begins tonight, 7:00 eastern, here on CNN.

When we talk about state of the union, obviously, we know some of the issues the president will hit, including this terror sweeps potentially across Europe. Tonight, we are just getting word that a man in London has now pleaded guilty to returning from a terror camp inside Syria. Hear what else he has revealed.

Plus, Morgan Spurlock joins me live on this new kind of robot, very lifelike. I think his word was "Creepy." Check this out. Hear what they do and why companies are making them.

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BALDWIN: Do you ever wish you could be in two places at once? Well, that day may be actually much closer than you think. The newest robots are getting so humanlike that soon, you may not be able to tell the difference. You should watch this clip. This is from our popular CNN series "MORGAN SPURLOCK INSIDE MAN" which returns for its third season on Thursday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern. Watch. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MORGAN SPURLOCK, CNN HOST, INSIDE MAN: These robots plunge deep into what is known as the uncanny valley, the feeling of revulsion that people feel when interacting with something that looks human, but not quite.

That's creepy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel comfortable talking to me?

SPURLOCK: I feel a little weird because what happens is like there will be things that make the android look incredibly human, like when you move the eyes, yes. But then, there's thing that's give away the facade, like the movement of the mouth or the movement of the arms. The minute all those things are fixed, it will be unbelievable.

The telenoid, what are the bare minimum requirements for human appearance. The telenoid was created to understand this question. This is 3,000 percent more creepy.

Meet telenoid, another tele-operated android.

Hello. My gosh, like a creepy baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Morgan.

SPURLOCK: Hi. How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Yourself?

SPURLOCK: I'm, like, in the movie "Cocoon" right now. This is like preparing us for an alien invasion. Say hello to everybody at home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, everyone!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: Morgan Spurlock, I agree it's a little creepy.

SPURLOCK: It is like little baby Voldemorth (ph).

BALDWIN: What's happening? This was all in Tokyo.

SPURLOCK: This is all in Tokyo. And there' a museum that is all about kind of the advancement of technology. And part of that are these kind of humanoid robots that they have created. And the idea is that at some point you will have these robots that would be able to be in a place where you cannot be, who kind of speak for you or interact with people for you. And they are very strange to see in person for the first time.

BALDWIN: So what is happening right now in Tokyo? Like, is this sort of a test phase of what could be?

SPURLOCK: Yes. This is a culture that has already I think embraced the idea of robot technology and relying on robots much more than we have. Like there are places where you can go to a restaurant and like a little robot will bring the food to your car or up to your table, I mean. But it is an incredible plates where I think that they just, they see as the future, I think, here a little bit more standoff-ish.

BALDWIN: Why do you think that is? Why do you think they've embraced this robot centric culture?

SPURLOCK: I mean, you watch them, they've made the movies, where the big monsters attack the city and the robots save the day. So I think that it's just ingrained in them from a technological standpoint. I think Post-World War II technology has been at the heart of Japanese culture. And I think that from their point of moving forward, robots are big part about changing not only society, but the way we look at moving ahead.

BALDWIN: But you -- not only did we see those robots for weren't you in something that was like racing, like a car racing around a track? Tell me about that.

SPURLOCK: Well, this is one of the greatest things that I've ever got to do in my life. So I believe self-driving cars will happen probably within the next five years.

BALDWIN: Yes.

SPURLOCK: So in New York City, I think --

Which is a little -- still a little crazy to wrap your head around.

SPURLOCK: Still little crazy.

BALDWIN: But I agree with you. I think it is going to happen.

SPURLOCK: I was on a racetrack and here is a picture of it right now. We were -- these are the guys from Stanford who created a self-driving race car. So now, we're in a car going almost 90 miles an hour around a racetrack that nobody is steering. It's breaking, it is driving, it is accelerating and it is using all the GPS technology, it's mapping the track, knowing where to go, knowing when to stop. And it's an incredible thing to experience. And you are in this car and you are like self-driving cars will be before you know it.

BALDWIN: It is one thing for me to have in the passenger sit of the race car when the guy is driving 80 miles an hour to know.

SPURLOCK: That's right. No one is driving.

BALDWIN: I mean, were you nervous?

SPURLOCK: The first time, the first lap, but you're just watching -- you're going into the first turn at 80 miles an hour, and you are like, is it going to turn? And then all of the sudden, the car jams on the break and turns by itself.

BALDWIN: OK. SPURLOCK: It is one of the most incredible thing to see.

BALDWIN: OK. So robots is one part of this. Let me talk to you about medical tourism. And this is something, obviously, we've heard about around the world. People going places. And I think what is interesting, I think you were in --- where were you, Thailand?

SPURLOCK: In Bangkok. Yes, Bangkok, Thailand.

BALDWIN: In Bangkok. Why are people going? Is this just part of just having an awesome vacation as you were recuperating, you know, coconut drink on the sand as you're getting fixed?

SPURLOCK: I think part of the idea is you can get the tourism part. But the medical part I think is the key part of the equation where it's infinitely cheaper. Like you will be able to go over there and can get a procedure done that you would get down on the state for a fifth of the price with doctors who went to Harvard, Yale, Stanford. Like you are not in a --

BALDWIN: So then, why aren't they practicing here? I mean, that is my say. You know, when you think about, when it's so much cheaper, you automatically wonder, does the quality plummet as well?

SPURLOCK: Yes. And that said, the answer is no. I mean, in some of the places, probably. But I mean, a lot the really hospitals, and we were in a hospital called (INAUDIBLE), which is an internationally accredited hospital where the doctors chose to go home because they wanted to treat patients in their own country, you know. This is -- just as we want to go home, like I want to go to West Virginia. You want to go back and do things that are good for your people.

BALDWIN: Is this covered by insurance if you travel overseas?

SPURLOCK: Some procedures are. And so, if you can go there, and the insurance company will honor it, why not go? You know, why not go and get something in a fifth of the price, it won't affect your premium or won't affect like your co-pay, and you're going to come out ahead and get a great vacation.

BALDWIN: And pay $100 a night according to the guy at the beach.

SPURLOCK: That's exactly right.

BALDWIN: Morgan Spurlock, thank you so much.

SPURLOCK: Thank you. Great to see you.

BALDWIN: Awesome seeing you. Make sure you watch the brand new season of "INSIDE MAN" starting Thursday night 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on CNN.

Morgan Spurlock, "INSIDE MAN."

I'm Brooke Baldwin here in New York. Thank you so, so much for being with me. We will see you back here same time tomorrow. In the meantime, "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts right now.