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TV Anchor Brian Williams Apologized; Reports Coalition Tried to Rescue 27-year-old Jordanian Pilot Muath Al-Kassasbeh Possibly As Far Back as New Year's Day

Aired February 05, 2015 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: A male voice was saying quote "mayday! Mayday! Engine flameout." I mean, what exactly are pilots trained to do in case that were to happen?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, it's interesting. We are drilled as pilots to aviate, navigate and then communicate. We don't know exactly what happened, but it appears the aircraft was in control and so they might have been a little bit out of order in their priorities list as oppose try to get the plane to fly getting on the radio.

But we don't know yet. The cockpit voice recorder, flight data recorders will show a lot of light as to what they were doing, whether they have their hands full with other things, whether making that radio call was the right thing to do at the moment.

The truth is, you have to do everything precisely correctly to the second when you lose an engine shortly after takeoff. It's a critical time, especially that turbo prop airplane where that wind milling propeller could be like a garbage can lid and it causes so much drag that it can be impossible to recover if you don't do things just right.

BALDWIN: OK. Miles O'Brien, thank you.

O'BRIEN: You're welcome.

BALDWIN: After a Jordanian fighter pilot was burned alive in a cage by ISIS, obviously, there's concern for other hostages. Could they be rescued? Next, we'll talk to the Navy Seal that says he killed Osama bin Laden's last kin. But what kind of rescue mission in preparing for the element of surprise? What's that like, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: We're just past the bottom of the hour. You're watching CNN. I'm Brooke Baldwin.

If ISIS is not willing to free hostages, their lives will depend on these risky rescue attempts. But even if there is the wheel, is there a way. There are reports that that coalition did tried to rescue 27- year-old Jordanian pilot Muath Al-Kassasbeh possibly as far back as New Year's day. But ISIS managed to stop them. And as we all know, executed the pilot couple of days later. The reported operations supposedly targeted Raqqa, that's the Syrian

stronghold, the so-called caliphate. It highlights exactly how hard it is to find and free these hostages. So let me bring in Robert O'Neal, Navy seal. I know you say you are the man who shot and killed Osama bin Laden. So thank you so much for coming back on the show. And I mean, you are the perfect the person to talk to because I know you all drilled and drilled and drilled before the raid in Pakistan. So if you foot yourself in the shoes of trying to rescue, say, this fighter pilot, Robert, how do you prepare for that?

ROBERT O'NEAL, CLAIMS TO KILLED OSAMA BIN LADEN: Hello Brooke, thanks for having me. Well, it's one of the things where the men and women involved with everything from the intelligence aspect to actual boots on the ground and the hostage rescue team. They're prepared and ready as far as tactics go. Pilots are ready to fly them in. They are ready for routes. All right, that stuff. The issue that we have right now is the lack of coalition boots on the ground. It doesn't give us the real time act of intelligence. So we're not exactly sure where they are. We don't know if hostages have been moved or as ever been there, what's going to happen when we fly in, who's going to be there when we get there, are we going to be able to get out? It's such a vacuum and a lack of intelligence on the ground that it makes it a lot more difficult. Not that it can't be done, but it is going to be a easier to get done when we do eventually get coalition boots there.

BALDWIN: I mean, what it is -- one of their real worries when you all flew into the site in Pakistan, you all would be fired upon?

O'NEAL: Yes. Obviously, that's one of the problems that -- one of the situations in which we dealt in Pakistan. We possibly would take fire. But in a place like Raqqa, they will get shot at going in. ISIS is everywhere. They're willing to martyr themselves. They are going to fight to the death. So yes, that's one of the things. They'll be shooting. It's a question of what will be shot at us. Everything from small arms to (INAUDIBLE) to shoulder fire to rockets, all that stuff.

So like I said, if we had people there, they can tell us what they have, it's going to put more chips in our favor.

BALDWIN: What about, Robert, the fact that, you know, now you have these hostages. And we know there's still a number of them. We're hearing reports a 26, 27-year-old American being held by ISIS.

O'NEAL: Yes.

BALDWIN: And so, they're becoming increasingly valuable. Does that increase the danger if there were to be another group were to try to sweep in and rescue them?

O'NEAL: It's possibly going to increase the danger not that they're already not in danger. It's already there. They've proven they're vicious. The only thing that ISIS wants to do now is just increase its viciousness. You know, we get to a point where a beheading almost seems like the right way to go as opposed to burning alive. What are they going to do next?

So yes, us rescuing them possibly increases the chance of them executing the hostages. But it's not like they're going to stop trying. I guarantee right now, we have forces in place that will attempt the rescue. The problem is, where are they?

BALDWIN: And to your point about lacking, you know, Intel on the ground makes it all the more challenging, right?

Have you seen the video? Have you watched? I've chosen not to. But have you watched the video of the Jordanian pilot --

O'NEAL: Yes. I make it a point to watch whatever I can. And I think that -- I mean, as graphic as it is, I think everyone needs to watch it to realize the enemy that we're dealing with.

BALDWIN: As the man who says, you know, he pulled the trigger and took down bin Laden, I'm just wondering beyond, I imagine disgust in watching it, what was the first thing that went through your mind when you is that?

O'NEAL: Honestly, the first thing that went through my mind is this is a Sunni-Muslim of practicing Sunni-Muslim who is in cage being burned alive by other Sunni-Muslims. So if they're willing to burn their own people, it's all -- I mean, it's radical Islam that we're also dealing with psycho paths. So they need to be death with. We need to first stop them out, meeting force with force at the point of origin, and then you need a coalition. We believe in align solidarity, part of which is supporting our alliance -- our allies. And one of our strongest allies is Jordan. And this is one of our guys and we need to get people in there to defeat and destroy enemy. It's all of our war now.

BALDWIN: Robert O'Neal, thank you for your service to this country and thank you for coming on. Great to see you.

O'NEAL: Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.

BALDWIN: You got it.

TV anchor Brian Williams is back peddling on a story that he has told about being in a chopper in Iraq that came under fire some years ago. The pilot of that helicopter is now speaking out to us here at CNN.

Plus, we will talk to a media critic next who says NBC news will lose all credibility if Brian Williams stays. We'll discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As the most watched news anchor in America, Brian Williams has built his newscast, his career, his reputation on speaking the truth. But he just apologized after being caught in a mistake. That is the word he used to describe his statements about being under enemy fire in 2003 while traveling in a military helicopter in Iraq. I want you to listen first to Brian Williams detailing on David Letterman in 2013 and then just last week on his own program. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS ANCHOR: Two of our four helicopters were hit by ground fire including the one I was in.

DAVID LETTERMAN, TV HOST: No kidding?

WILLIAMS: RPG and AK 47.

The story actually started with a terrible moment a dozen years back during the invasion of Iraq when the helicopter we were traveling in was forced down after being hit by an RPG. Our traveling NBC News team was rescued, surrounded and kept alive by an armored mechanized platoon from the U.S. military third infantry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: But Williams was in the chopper that was behind in Chinook which came under fire. Here is a quote from someone who was there 12 years ago, Sergeant Lance Reynolds. The sergeant said this.

"Sorry dude, I don't remember you being on my aircraft. I do remember you walking up about an hour after we had landed to ask me what had happened," end quote.

So how could Brian Williams get it so wrong? Here's his apology yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: I made a mistake in recalling the events of 12 years ago. It did not take long to hear from some brave men and women and air crews who were also in that desert. I want to apologize. I said I was traveling in an aircraft hit by RPG fire. I was instead in a following aircraft. We all landed after the ground fire incident and spent two harrowing nights in a sand storm in the Iraq desert. This was a bungled attempt by me to thank one special veteran and by extension our brave military men and women, veterans everywhere, those who have served while I did not. I hope they know they have my greatest respect and also now my apology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: With me now is senior media correspondent and host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" Brian Stelter. Also with me media critic for the "Baltimore sun," David Zurawik.

Gentlemen, welcome.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN HOST, RELIABLE SOURCES: Thanks.

BALDWIN: Brian Stelter, to you first because you have spoken now with the pilot of Brian Williams' helicopter in Iraq in 2003. Tell me the story he told you.

STELTER: He says Brian Williams was riding in the back of his Chinook helicopter. The chopper did take small arms fire. That there were some dents in the bottom of the helicopter for that reason. That it was a dangerous situation. But that there was no RPG strike in that chopper. He says that happened at the chopper right ahead of theirs.

But this is a very murky situation, Brooke. We've heard contradictory information today from the stars and stripes newspaper. And all of this just goes to show why Brian Williams has a lot more explaining to do.

BALDWIN: It's also a different story coming from the reporter Travis Trenton who we talked to last hour who broke the story wide open on stars and stripes. Because he's been in touch with veterans who were there in the other Chinook. And here is what Travis told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS TRENTON, WHO BROKE BRIAN WILLIAMS STORY: What I've been told is that Brian Williams and the NBC crew was not on any of the three Chinooks that were in the company that was hit. That they were actually traveling in the second company in the opposite direction towards Kuwait when that attack occurred.

Typically, they would travel about an hour behind the other company when they were doing supply runs. They had just happened to pass though in the desert with one going south and one with going north. So, geographically, they were close, but it was clear that a Brian Williams' Chinook was not following the Chinook hit by the RPG in the other company.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: So, two different versions here of this chain of events from 2003.

David, to you. You wrote in the sun, if credibility means anything to NBC News, Brian Williams will no longer be managing editor and anchor of the evening newscast by the end of the day, Friday. Do you still feel that way?

DAVID ZURAWIK, MEDIA CRITIC, BALTIMORE SUN: I do, absolutely. I'll tell you why Brooke.

You know, this isn't just as he said, he misremembered something from 12 years ago. He also used the language of conflating one event with another. This is a story that he's told over those 12 years in differing versions. But in all of them, he was in danger and took fire.

And here's -- it's not just that he lied for 12 years, it's the kind of lie he told. There are millions of military families in this country who suffer everyday diminished lives from by the injuries and the wounds that people who fought honorably in those wars suffer. Along comes an anchorman who didn't do it, who tries to appropriate some of their honor for himself by that lie. You tell me how any member of any military family in this country can look at him on TV and not feel contempt for him. That's why I think it's going to be very hard for him to continue.

And look, managing editor and anchor, he is the face of their news division. Even if all he did was lie, I don't think he should be the face of that news division any longer. I'm sorry.

And I think, you know, we have this thing in the media, we're all part of this fraternity. That's why the public hates us, because we won't call each other out.

This is a terrible thing that Williams did. I don't know why he did it. I don't know how he did it, Brooke. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze him. I just know that we should have a higher standard for the people who lead news -- he has one of the most honored jobs in this country as managing editor of a network news division. We can do better than people who say I don't know what got screwed up in my brain to say this.

BALDWIN: David, would it matter to you -- I mean, I'm listening to everything you're saying, would it matter to you if his Chinook did take arms fire, just a smaller arms fire?

ZURAWIK: No, because he said he took -- first of all, he said he took a very specific kind of fire and in almost every version he makes it sound as if he was in that first helicopter that got hit. And the versions we have is that he showed up an hour later, for goodness' sakes. I mean, you know, people online and people in emails to me today and various things have said look, if you were in a chopper that took that kind of fire, I don't care if it was 50 years ago, you wouldn't forget it. You wouldn't get confused about it.

BALDWIN: Yes. You know, I was asking Travis with "Stars And Stripes," about you bring up the veterans and I was saying to him well, how are the veterans responding to this apology from yesterday's "Nightly News." And he was saying, you know, for the most part, yes, they felt it was like a bit forced, maybe a little contrived. Most found his word satisfactory though some were cynical because to me at the end of the day, Brian Stelter, so much of this falls to David's point on the veterans and whether they are accepting. Brian Williams has been, I have always thought, a pretty phenomenal reporter, especially all his, you know, days in Iraq.

STELTER: Yes, he's covered military issues for years.

BALDWIN: So much. So much so.

STELTER: And we should say he's got a deep well of credibility and good will among his fans. Ten million of whom usually watch on a given night. So he has a lot of fans out there and a lot of credibility he's built up over the years. I don't believe that is going to vanish right away. I believe that people are going to tune in tonight and we hear the news from him.

But I do think over the long term there could be real damage here especially if he doesn't show more transparency about what happened.

BALDWIN: My other issue, though, just being part of a news organization and knowing there are many pieces, right, that come to think putting a piece on air. We know this happened in 2003. The accurate chain of events we are told, sort of over time there was this evolution and changing of the telling of the story. And I'm wondering -- I'm just wondering, what about the NBC cameraman who was with him, who heard this through the years, different executives, different producers.

STELTER: That's what I keep getting asked. I had a long time staffers, I just can't figure out how this went on so publicly for so long with so many people who were in a position to know it was a lie. It is what I am wondering too. By the way, I haven't been able to get a-hold of any of those staffers yet. But I am told that he will back anchoring tonight.

BALDWIN: Go ahead, David.

ZURAWIK: And yes -- no, Brooke, one of the things, that's a great point you raise because NBC itself in various press venues, publicity venues, has told versions of this story. So they are kind of complicit in it. And that's going to be a problem for them, too, to take any kind of action against him.

We are going to find out are they more concerned with having the number one rated anchor on television or are they concerned about credibility. You can have both but I don't think you can have both once your anchorman makes this kind of -- and I almost said mistake, but I'm not going to give him the credit, benefit of the doubt and say mistake. This is a lie. Ad we should call it as such.

BALDWIN: David Zurawik, "Baltimore Sun", Brian Stelter of "RELIABLE SOURCES" here on CNN, appreciate both of you.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Tonight, Morgan Spurlock with large animal zoo keepers in his brand new episode of CNN's "INSIDE MAN." And I talked to him about this recently. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One always seems to follow. The first thing we do, I checked on the way down, we made sure all the cages are locked. They come into these individual stalls and eat their dinner or breakfast depending on time of day. I will let you operate the door if you would like.

MORGAN SPURLOCK, CNN HOST, INSIDE MAN: There he is.

Whoa! He's pursing his lips. He's unhappy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is called a threat face. They stand very rigid and very tall and then purse their lips and really very tight.

SPURLOCK: Right. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then just (INAUDIBLE).

SPURLOCK: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you give them things, you want to make sure that your fingers don't cross and they can just take it from you.

SPURLOCK: How about a banana?

Never been so happy to have a fence next to me in my life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BALDWIN: You did not make a friend at the zoo, did you?

SPURLOCK: There is nothing like a giant like 800 pound gorilla running at you in a cage.

BALDWIN: So it's a total no-no to be like this.

SPURLOCK: Yes. You don't want to stare at them ever, because that is a threat to them. So you want to call it like kind of look at their chest or just look beyond them a little bit. But they will look, sill stare right at you but you can't look at them.

BALDWIN: And why is that?

SPURLOCK: Because then it's all about dominance. So they will think you are trying to kind of impose in their dominance, that you are basically trying to fight with them.

BALDWIN: Even though, they are behind?

SPURLOCK: That's right. So it is all about posturing and it is all about who is the leader. And they always want to kind of show dominance over you.

BALDWIN: Were you able to finally make nice and feed for the gorilla?

SPURLOCK: I think I made some nice with the gorillas by the end. But you can only make so much nice, I think, with the gorilla.